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Refreshing Words from a Christian
I said everything I have to say about this "War on Christmas" crap last year, so this December I'll turn the microphone over to Ryan McMaken, who unlike me actually follows the faith that's allegedly under attack:
Since American Christianity has often been a most bland, tacky, and stripped down version of the real thing, it seems Americans have a thing for filling in the holes with efforts at blending the religious and the civic. Who cares if the government buildings have a nativity scene on their front steps? I sure don't. In fact I sure don't want my tax dollars paying for the upkeep of decorations. Leave the government buildings undecorated. Let's not pretend that the government has ever had the best interests of the faith in mind. Then there are those parades that cost untold amounts of police overtime pay. I'd agree that "Holiday Parades" are stupid. They should be "Christmas" parades because that is what they are. But why have a parade at all? There are plenty of processions and rites to mark any holy day at my parish. When it's a religious holiday, I know it. I'd be overjoyed if every house in my street had a nativity scene out front, but I sure don't need the government or the check-out girl at Target to remind me it's Christmas or to make it "joyous."...
When I walk in my house, or the homes of my friends or family during Christmas season, it's pretty clear that it's Christmas, a Christian Holy day. No one says Happy Holidays. I have plenty of religious ceremonies to attend, plenty of devotions to participate in, and plenty of prayers to say, and I don't have some pathetic need for others to validate my Holidays. If they share my faith, wonderful. If not, that's too bad for them. But I have better things to do than get my religious validation in the check out line at the grocery store.
Read the whole thing. His best line is about Wal-Mart: "I'm there to shop, not have a religious experience."
|12.9.05 @ 10:14AM|#
As another practitioner of the faith "under attack," I'd like to echo the sentiments of the Mr. McMaken. I'd also like to point out that a great many things about Christmas as we celebrate it (including the date) were essentially stolen from Pagan religions. So even if society *is* trying to muscle Christianity out of the season Christians should take it with a grain of salt, since we muscled it in there in the first place.
|12.9.05 @ 10:14AM|#
Hallelujah!
The only Christians that get uptight about this crap are the "Hey
Jesus! Look at me!" Christians. The ones that have real faith don't
need society to validate it. Which I thought was the point of
having faith. But what do I know? I'm a godless heathen.
I'm not Mr. PC, I think a Christmas tree should be called a
Christmas tee, but always thought that saying Happy Holidays to
someone you don't know was being polite. Not assuming that everyone
you meet shares your faith or cultural background just seems like
the - I don't know - Christian thing to do.
Bryan|12.9.05 @ 10:18AM|#
Remember, boys and girls, BOYCOTT any store that does not wish us all a Frabjous Yak Shaving Day!
|12.9.05 @ 10:24AM|#
A thought occurs to me: Not every faith (or lack thereof) is
having a holiday at this time. So telling someone "Happy Holidays"
could be as irrelevant as saying, "Enjoy Jesus". Of course, there
is New Year's Eve, I suppose.
The whole debate is silly. Christmas really is quasi-secular on
many levels, and saying "Merry Christmas" is no big deal. I'm so
tired of the domination of the heckler's veto in this country. If
someone says Happy Chinese New Year to me, do I slug him? Usually
not.
|12.9.05 @ 10:27AM|#
Ryan McMaken misses the point.
There is a blatant effort on the part of liberals (ACLU, most Dems,
etc) to destroy the traditions and beliefs of the majority of
people in this country. Well, we are not going to stand by and let
that happen.
Political correctness has run amuck to the extent that people feel
they have to watch everything they say just so they don't
inadvertently offend someone. Well that's just bull crap!
Most people I know are not offended by Hanukah or Kwanza or Ramadan
or whatever. Why should a non Christian be offended by Christmas?
THAT'S WHAT THIS HOLIDAY SEASON IS ABOUT!!! You have a problem with
that? Tough. So you're an atheist? That's your problem; don't try
to make it mine.
Would it kill you to smile and nod to someone that wishes you a
Merry Christmas? Suck it up and deal with it. They are trying to be
pleasant. Does that concept elude you?
The majority of this country considers itself Christian. I would
suggest the left learn to be a lot more tolerant of the rest of us
and we will try to do the same for you.
|12.9.05 @ 10:28AM|#
Oh, as a Christian/Agnostic/Zeus Follower mix, I agree with McMaken--it ain't about parades and public displays. It's about family and friends. Which is why the holiday has managed to transcend faiths (nothing weirder than that moment you visit a Jewish friend with a Christmas tree).
Warren|12.9.05 @ 10:28AM|#
Remember when the faithful use to complain that Xmas was too commercial? Now they complain that commerce is insufficiently monotheist.
|12.9.05 @ 10:29AM|#
By the way, according to the link at the bottom of this post
(whose accuracy I admittedly haven't checked into) Christians make
up more than 75% of the U.S. population. I don't think we need to
sweat the pagan hordes smashing our religious traditions and
outlawing our faith just yet.
http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#religions
|12.9.05 @ 10:35AM|#
Hey, John, cool your jets. Christianity survived Nero, I think it can survive the ACLU. What really puzzles me about this whole "It's our culture, live with it" thing is that it essentially turns Christianity into a national identity, as opposed to a faith. Why are so many Christians more interested in making sure non-Christians act like them than in convincing non-Christians to think like them? It's a recipe for disaster.
|12.9.05 @ 10:36AM|#
Pro Libertate,
Well, New Years is coming up. That's a holiday and
non-religious*.
*Yes, yes other cultures have other New Years celebrations, but
you're in the US, you use our calendar now!
Jesse Walker|12.9.05 @ 10:38AM|#
Would it kill you to smile and nod to someone that wishes
you a Merry Christmas? Suck it up and deal with it. They are trying
to be pleasant. Does that concept elude you?
I agree. I also think the exact same advice applies to anyone
offended by "Happy Holidays."
Some people just live to get offended and to raise a stink about
nothing in particular. Some of them are on the left. Others have
shows on Fox.
|12.9.05 @ 10:41AM|#
No Smappy, i'm afriad you have it wrong too.
Most Christians aren't that interested in making sure non
Christians act like them, they (I) want the left to back off and
keep their smarmy hands off our beliefs.
If you don't see that there is a concerted effort by the extreme
left to marginalize Christians and the Christian religion, you are
either terribly ill informed or in total denial.
|12.9.05 @ 10:43AM|#
Mo, your Western calendar hegemony will not be tolerated.
Besides, I mentioned New Year's Eve, didn't I?
This all reminds me of the old Seinfeld bit. When you see someone
regularly during the day, don't say something convoluted like, "Hi,
how are you doing" or "Have a nice day". Just say,
"Acknowledge".
Acknowledge.
|12.9.05 @ 10:46AM|#
Why should a non Christian be offended by
Christmas?
You have things backwards, at least with respect to some of us. I
don't care if someone says Merry Christmas; what I object to is the
claim that one SHOULD say Merry Christmas and NOT Happy Holidays
(which is this year's right-wing holiday shibboleth), that the
former is more Christian than the latter. New Year's Day is one of
the holidays of the season, and if I want to wish someone happiness
for ALL the holidays, Happy Holidays is a good, polite, shorthand
way of doing so.
THAT'S WHAT THIS HOLIDAY SEASON IS ABOUT!!!
For you. Not for everyone. That's the point.
|12.9.05 @ 10:49AM|#
Most Christians aren't that interested in making sure non
Christians act like them, they (I) want the left to back off and
keep their smarmy hands off our beliefs.
If you don't see that there is a concerted effort by the extreme
left to marginalize Christians and the Christian religion, you are
either terribly ill informed or in total denial.
John,
I think that the majority of the left consider themselves
Christians as well. To assign religious belief along
party/political lines is idiotic. Unless you consider people who
disagree with your politics to be heretics as well.
Anyway, I don't see how Happy Holidays is an egregious attack on
Christian values.
|12.9.05 @ 10:50AM|#
John,
I find it interesting that you divide the country into at least two
groups: Christians and "The Left." Given that the overwhelming
majority of Americans are Christians, at least some of them *have*
to be members of "The Left." Unless, of course "The Left" is just
the remaining 25% of the country that is not Christian, in which
case I'm astounded that those rascals have managed to get hold of
all necessary levers of government to marginalize Christianity. Of
course, the althernative to your theory is that the majority of
people in the ACLU and left are not hostile toward Christianity,
but toward Public (read "government") support thereof. Also, how
you determine that *private* businesses *voluntarily* using generic
holiday greetings could somehow be part of a conspiracy of leftists
to marginalize Christianity is completely beyond me. At the very
least you shouldn't be bothered by that, since what you claim is
just for the left to back off.
|12.9.05 @ 10:51AM|#
So Ethan, you think it's ok to outlaw the word Christmas because
it's not for everyone (just the majority)?
I am constantly amazed that the left is for diversity and
inclusion, EXCEPT for Christians.
What a bunch of hypocrites
|12.9.05 @ 10:54AM|#
I can solve this problem Call the media.
The "Secular Left" should be more liberal in allowing references to
Christmas. In exchange, the Christian Right can drop the whole ID
nonsense. Works for me.
|12.9.05 @ 10:55AM|#
So Ethan, you think it's ok to outlaw the word Christmas
because it's not for everyone (just the majority)?
I am not sure where you got that from what I wrote. Outlaw? What
are you talking about? I will give you a chance to re-read my post
and try again. Read the WORDS this time.
|12.9.05 @ 10:55AM|#
Smappy, so I am speaking in generalities. Sue me.
The left is the driving force behind the efforts to marginalize
Christians. That's why I stressed the "left"
|12.9.05 @ 10:55AM|#
Church entanglement with the state is worse for the Church than it is for the State. It makes the Church lazy and bureaucratic as dogmatic and even more prone to social correctness of the day. If the athiests of the world were really smart they would demand state sponsored religion as a sure way to destroy religion forever.
|12.9.05 @ 10:56AM|#
I am constantly amazed that the left is for diversity and
inclusion, EXCEPT for Christians.
Apparently, the lack of legal enforcement of all tenets of a
particular stripe of Christianity is exclusionary to
Christians.
|12.9.05 @ 11:01AM|#
Eathan,
I didn't mean to imply YOU said outlaw. But that is what the
(extreme) left is trying to do. So just because it's not everyones
holiday doen't mean it's not someones holiday.
I use the word outlaw becsue there are numerous documented
instances of Schools and even some businesses not allowing the word
Christmas in there facilities. One school I read about recently
decided to reprint the "Holiday" lunchroom menu at a cost of $450
because a new employee put Merry Christmas at the top of the
menu.
|12.9.05 @ 11:02AM|#
Hey John,
Merry Christmas.
So you say the ACLU, through its quite obvious control of the Bush
administration, is gunning after Christians. Maybe you're right.
Don't let it bother you too much, however: if you stay up all night
December 24th gnashing your teeth about this leftist assault on all
things holy, Santa Claus might not come.
|12.9.05 @ 11:04AM|#
Ok, my spelling has gone to crap because I'm in a big hurry to
get these posts out before I have to leave for work.
I would love to continue this but I gotta go....
MERRY CHRISTMAS everyone (grin)
|12.9.05 @ 11:06AM|#
Why is she so certain that holdiay parades and decorations are
put up to celebrate Christ Mass? My city has a "City of Lights
Parade" at the end of November, then a "Winterfest" in February. I
guess we're being sleazy and dishonest, and should just rename them
the "Poorly Timed Chirstmas Parade" and the "Poorly Time Christmas
Festival."
On the other hand, they also have DPW workers assemble a city-owned
nativity scene in a public park on the city's dime. So that's not
right.
Public festivals are good. Just about everybody celebrates
something around December/early January. Traditionally, people
decorade with lights and stylized winter scenes. What's the problem
here?
|12.9.05 @ 11:12AM|#
"Would it kill you to smile and nod to someone that wishes you a
Merry Christmas? Suck it up and deal with it. They are trying to be
pleasant. Does that concept elude you?"
Gee, you sure do sound pleasant. I think I'll put "Suck it up and
deal with it" on my Christmas cards this year.
Feel the love. John Dendy, you are as a clanging bell.
|12.9.05 @ 11:16AM|#
You know, I used to be a conservative of John's stripe. And even when I became a libertarian I still was more skeptical of the left than the right in this country. But ever since 9/11 I've become convinced that it's the right that truly wants to see John and Jane Q. Public goose-stepping down Main Street, bowing to the same political gods. This whole Christmas under attack debacle just further convinces me.
|12.9.05 @ 11:18AM|#
I guess what I don't get about the whole thing is why attack the stores for saying "Happy Holidays." As far as a soulless corporation can celebrate anything, they certainly aren't celebrating just Christmas. They want you to buy candy and costumes on Halloween; food on Thanksgiving; gifts and decorations for Christmas/Hanukah/Kwanzaa; alcohol and party favors for New Year's. They may want to say Happy Holidays because they really are celebrating more than one holiday. Hell, they even have their own extra holiday: Black Friday. Seems to me that Happy Holidays is quite appropriate.
|12.9.05 @ 11:19AM|#
This all reminds me of the old Seinfeld bit. When you see
someone regularly during the day, don't say something convoluted
like, "Hi, how are you doing" or "Have a nice day". Just say,
"Acknowledge".
Pro Libertate,
[Acknowledge, acknowledge]
I always think of that bit Seinfeld did when I'm walking in the
hallway and have to say hi to somebody. Or sometimes, even when I'm
posting a reply to someone on H&R who made a completely
irrelevent comment that needs to be acknowledged. I'm not talking
about you, of course.
[acknowledge, acknowledge]
|12.9.05 @ 11:21AM|#
It's almost as if people like John don't want to anyone to acknowledge that there are members of our society who celebrate different holidays.
|12.9.05 @ 11:23AM|#
joe said:
"Public festivals are good. Just about everybody celebrates
something around December/early January. Traditionally, people
decorade with lights and stylized winter scenes. What's the problem
here?"
It's no coincidence that societies in the higher latitudes have
evolved a preference for lights and frivolity around the time of
winter solstice.
|12.9.05 @ 11:25AM|#
The people who get angry over "Happy Holidays" are a perfect example of why Festivus makes sense: Some people need to air grievances.
|12.9.05 @ 11:29AM|#
I don't think my atheism is a problem for me or anyone
else.
I would suggest the left learn to be a lot more tolerant of the
rest of us and we will try to do the same for you.
The hell you will.
If the athiests of the world were really smart they would
demand state sponsored religion as a sure way to destroy religion
forever.
Seems to be working in Europe. Took a long time, though.
I'd say if anyone's oppressed (help, help!) it's pagans, having
Saturnalia ignored.
|12.9.05 @ 11:37AM|#
"I'd say if anyone's oppressed (help, help!) it's pagans, having
Saturnalia ignored."
You can say that again, Poco. Just try sacrificing a live pig to
the Invincible Sun God at Town Hall and see where it gets you!
|12.9.05 @ 11:38AM|#
I'm still stunned at the doublethink it requires to believe that
when governments or companies fail to support your religion, they
are actively attacking it.
And if Jesus were still around, he'd spend his days retching in
revulsion at what has become of his message.
keith|12.9.05 @ 11:56AM|#
And if Jesus were still around, he'd spend his days retching
in revulsion at what has become of his message.
You mean that people are saying Happy Holidays when his message was
Merry Christmas? :)
Maybe he'd just say, "Dude, I was born in March," or something like
that.
Wild Pegasus|12.9.05 @ 12:07PM|#
Fundamentalist Christians and Christian conservatives read the
Bible. They read that Jesus and the apostles faced persecution.
They read that persecution and opposition will always dog
Christians, and that the world hates and fears them.
Then, they look around. The country is 80% Christian, including the
head of state, most regional heads of state, most of the Supreme
Court justices, most of Congress, and most of the regional
legislatures. Churches of every stripe abound. Christian bookstores
dot the landscape. Incredibly horrible Christian rock sells
hundreds of thousands.
There's a disconnect, and it needs explanation. The most coherent
explanation is that Jesus and the apostles couldn't fathom a
society where Christianity was not a tiny, hounded minority. The
fundamentalist/conservative explanation is that the persecution
really is ongoing. But since no Christians are being locked up for
their beliefs, denied jobs, excluded from the government, or
anything else, the persecution ends up being stuff like saying
Happy Holidays (recognising the 10%-15% of non-Christian religious
Americans). They're idiots.
- Josh
|12.9.05 @ 12:11PM|#
Last week a check-out lady at wal-mart wished me "Have a blessed day." Since she had just helped me even though her line had closed, I resisted the urge to get clarificaton what she meant using the word "blessed". I suspect it was her personal religious belief motivating her. Or is there another, quite secular meaning to the word "blessed"? She did not look or speak like she was a recent immigrant.
|12.9.05 @ 12:17PM|#
a preference for lights
Just as we need to stimulate our livers with spiked egg nog, the
pineal gland needs a workout too!
|12.9.05 @ 12:35PM|#
Keith,
Yeshua was born in the early fall. Most likely during the Feast of
Tabernacles, a celebration of God being physically present among
us.
Which means we should be celebrating his conception soon. Merry
Christmas.
|12.9.05 @ 12:43PM|#
smacky, acknowledge :)
I told that joke to one of our staff back in my in-house counsel
days. She and I said "acknowledge" to each other for the next four
years. Good run for any joke, in my opinion.
Back to religion--I get frustrated at how non-Christian many
Christians act. We've got no monopoly on hypocrisy, but you'd think
all that "love your brother" stuff would be more evident this time
of year. I'm "full of doubt" (as opposed to "cocksure") when it
comes to religion, but, mostly because I was raised that way, I
still see myself as at least somewhat Christian in the
philosophical sense. "Love Jesus or die" isn't one of the messages
I recall hearing. How about a little tolerance, stoicism, humility,
and brotherly love, my angry Christian friends?
As an aside, the vast majority of Christians in this country appear
to be perfectly sane about religion. We teach evolution in schools,
we have pretty good barriers between church and state, etc. Don't
condemn them all because of some loud-mouth extremists. Every group
has some loons to deal with, right?
|12.9.05 @ 12:52PM|#
Don't condemn them all because of some loud-mouth
extremists. Every group has some loons to deal with,
right?
Well said, Pro Libertate. I just wish the "majority" that the
extremists in every group claim to represent would occasionally
slap them back into coherence.
|12.9.05 @ 1:02PM|#
John Dendy you are a dandy!
However, your comments are completely fucked up. The libertarian
position (these dudes are considered to be "right wing" you
idiot)is that taxpayer money should not be spent on religious
displays. This is not an attack on Christianity or Christmas - it
is a basic conservative principle.
Private corporations such as Wal-fucking-Mart should be allowed to
exploit the holidays anyway they want. Their job is to maximize
earnings. If they believe that supressing the religious aspect of
the holiday leads to greater profits then they have every right to
adopt this approach. They might believe that a giant display of
baby Jesus buggering Santa Claus with a candy cane will increase
sales. Then I am all for this display, as long as it is done in
good taste. Regardless of their methodology, their motivation is
the accumulation of almighty greenbacks and not the promotion of
religious or secular agendas.
|12.9.05 @ 1:11PM|#
I see the airing of grievences is going right on track. Next we'll have the feats of strength. I want to see Laura Bush vs. Mary Cheney in a no holds barred, Texas Cage Match in Jello. Happy Festivus!!
|12.9.05 @ 1:13PM|#
As an aside, the vast majority of Christians in this country
appear to be perfectly sane about religion.
Exactly. That's why it's surprising to me that so many people
around here are SHOCKED to see a Christian expressing a reasonable
opinion.
|12.9.05 @ 1:22PM|#
Crushinator (Great handle by the way)
"They might believe that a giant display of baby Jesus buggering
Santa Claus with a candy cane will increase sales. Then I am all
for this display, as long as it is done in good taste."
In South Park, Jesus and Santa settle their differences:
Jesus comes down from the heavens and he asks the boys where he can
find the mall. The boys agree to bring him to the mall. When they
arrived at South Park mall Stan asks Jesus why they are here. He
points at Santa and claims that he's is a blasphemer and that he is
ruining the spirit of Christmas. Santa notices Jesus and challenges
him to a fight and tells him there can only be 'one' winner. The
fight continues with both Santa and Jesus trading blows. After
Jesus fires a shot at Santa, Santa fires a beam ball at Jesus, with
Jesus just dodging the shot but it continued on it's course of
destruction and chops Kenny's head off. Brian Boitano makes an
appearance and he tells the boys that Christmas is a time of loving
and caring for one another, and he does'nt help the boys out with
their problem. Eventually Stan and Kyle convince them to stop the
fighting by telling them that both of them are important people at
Christmas time. They settle their differences and Jesus offers to
buy Santa an orange smoothie which Santa gratefully accepts.
Can't we all just get along and buy each other an orange
smoothy?
|12.9.05 @ 1:27PM|#
I've come out of the afore-said 80% Christian population (reared in a practicing Christian family as a child, at least), and I am willing to say (meaning no disrespect to believers) that IMHO it is in many respects a silly religion. Just one example, the Trinity is a pretzel of an idea, a contortionistic creation arising from the need (but why?) to make Jesus divine while still claiming monotheism (though I still don't get the part about the Holy Ghost -- why not a Holy Fairy? Or a Holy Sea Otter?). I say this though I was hard-core born-again in high school. I felt so relieved when I could say, finally, that the whole thing makes no sense to me. The pretzel in my brain stretched out. -- During this season, sometimes I say "Merry Christmas," sometimes I say "Happy Holidays," and I thoroughly enjoy myself -- but it doesn't change what I think or how I feel. What makes fundamentalist Christians mad is not so much that they can't make people say certain things, but that they can't make people think or feel certain things, including shame at not towing the line. It infuriates them that people in this country are really free.
|12.9.05 @ 1:37PM|#
Catalina;
"It infuriates them that people in this country are really
free."
We are not free in our actions, just try to open a house of
prostitution or openly distribute drugs. Anymore, we are only free
to have our own private thoughts about things, but give it a little
time and that will change if the fundimentalists have their
way.
Larry A|12.9.05 @ 1:38PM|#
The country is 80% Christian
Well, sort of but not really. The majority of U.S. citizens are
Christian, but there's no "Christian majority" in the U.S. And it's
an important distinction that many Christians don't
understand.
True, if you ask, "Are you Christian?" <check yes/no> about
80% of us will check "Yes." But if you ask, "What church do you
belong to?" <fill in the blank> very few Methodists,
Baptists, Episcopalians, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Catholics,
Church of Christ, Jehovah's Witness, Mormon, Evangelical responses
will be "Christian." You couldn't get all the Baptists to stop at
"Baptist." Even my own United Methodist church has subjects we
don't bring up at Annual Conference, lest there be theological
foodfights. And we're way laid back for Christians.
Too many people hear "Christian government" and think, "Cool. The
country run according to the beliefs and traditions of my church."
Actually, however, the vast majority of us would find ourselves in
a country run according to the beliefs and traditions of
someone else's church. And that's inevitably meant
disaster.
|12.9.05 @ 1:51PM|#
The main problem with "Happy Holidays" is that it takes Christmas, which has a whole bunch of warm and fuzzy connotations, both religious and secular, and replaces it with absolutely nothing or, at best,Christmas-but-not-really.
|12.9.05 @ 1:56PM|#
The people getting worked up over "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Holidays" should calm down and have some eggnog.
|12.9.05 @ 2:01PM|#
I don't know if anyone's mentioned this already, but as a
practicing Christian, I would prefer if the holy day were not
sullied by its secular observance, which is little more than a
festival of greed.
If Jesus were still on earth in bodily form, I suspect he would
kick each and every fake Santa Claus' ass from here till Judgement
Day. Did I mention that I don't like Santa Claus? ;-)
|12.9.05 @ 2:02PM|#
"Well, sort of but not really. The majority of U.S. citizens are
Christian, but there's no "Christian majority" in the U.S. And it's
an important distinction that many Christians don't
understand."
Right, well, plus there's the fact that many if not most of the
"Christians" we are talking about do not practice and many do not
even believe (though they may hope). Though we are famously much
more devout than most Europeans, for example, the homeland of
Jean-Paul Sartre, where probably 98% of the non-Arab population is
"Catholic," but do not believe.
|12.9.05 @ 2:42PM|#
The whole "controversy" is idiotic. Christmas in the U.S. is about selling stuff and making money. Period.
|12.9.05 @ 2:52PM|#
Catalina,
Some scholars believe that the holy triumvirate is yet another
pagan absorption along the lines of Christmas itself.
For a very very long time the Hebrews worshipped a
(pre-monotheistic) (earth) goddess alongside Yahweh, often as his
wife. Most of the OT prophets insisted Yahweh didn't like that
much. Along with the goddess came the old cultural "son being
reborn" a la Baal. So it seems all the old religions of the area
had a triple godhead. I think these other explanations for why we
have Father, Son, and Holy Ghost may be later revisions explaining
the fact that the early beliefs were never fully eradicated.
|12.9.05 @ 2:56PM|#
Very similar to the claim that the same goddess is also the origin of Virgin Mary worship.
|12.9.05 @ 3:25PM|#
If Jesus were still on earth in bodily form, I suspect he would
kick each and every fake Santa Claus' ass from here till Judgement
Day. Did I mention that I don't like Santa Claus? ;-)
Hmmmm.... I don't know about you, but I don't think I've ever met
the 'violent-Jesus' before.... is that like an evil twin?
Seriously though, Religion is a private thing and should be a
private thing. I don't why people are scared of 'winter break'. I
guess there's also the 'no-christmas songs' in school thing,
although I think it would be great if schools did like 1 christmas
song, and 1 jewish song, and 1 kwanzaa song... and even better if
students have different traditions they could bring in a winter
cultural song of their own... I don't think that's offensive.. but
maybe it's just me.
I do understand a jewish writer who wrote on the other day, that
it's hard for his 4 year old kid, who gets randomly approached all
the time asking if he's excited to meet santa. And he has to
explain to the parent, and then to his kid that they don't have
santa yatta yatta yatta. He says he just finds it frustrating, and
that I understand.
But why would anybody want their religion name postcarded on this
bastard hallmark holiday I'll never know.
|12.9.05 @ 3:28PM|#
"I'm there to shop, not have a religious
experience."
Much in the way overdosing on LSD can be a religious experience,
shopping at Walmart can be a religious experience. Have you ever
looked at some of the people who shop there? Jebus. Some days I
feel like I never really recuperated from that last flashback.
VM|12.9.05 @ 3:35PM|#
" but I don't think I've ever met the 'violent-Jesus' before....
is that like an evil twin?"
with goatee and everything :)
(what you're otherwise describing - at least with mainstream
religions of the 70s and 80s was what my school did. if a culture
represented at the school had an important day, we'd get to
celebrate and learn about it, too. it was always framed as a
positive aspect of this wonderful world we have - i still know more
chanukah songs than christmas ones. grin)
back to VJ (violent jesus) the man could get tough - he busted up
that temple and all. but yeah - the violent, punishing jesus is a
bit much for this citizen, too. (although, how many fundies use
religion as a weapon of punishment and of control?)
but: some of the crass sides of xmas are a but much for me, too. i
try to sit out most of the stuff on the sidelines. and i do say
whatever holiday greeting is appropriate. funny true story: a
jewish buddy of mine wished someone whom he thought also to be
jewish a happy chanukah, only to find out that it was a fairly
strong fundie type who was insulted out the wazoo. snicker.
and crimethink: i feel your pain, partially, at least (best i can
do) - and i can imagine how bad easter must annoy you, considering
that's the most holy day in the christian calendar!
there is a secular "christmas" in our culture. it apparently is
bigger than the various, fragmented religious ones. and that's
fine. otherwise, we could get into it with how one celebrates
(which days, is the epiffany important, etc), and all. it's too
messy - thanks to Larry A for highlighting that :)
merry christmas!
|12.9.05 @ 3:37PM|#
I don't know about you, but I don't think I've ever met the
'violent-Jesus' before....
I pray you won't; but you will, if you do not repent. Or if you are
a fake Santa Claus.
I mean, how would you feel if people were using your birthday as an
excuse to sell worthless crap?
|12.9.05 @ 3:37PM|#
Smacky,
You cut me right to the bone. I am one of those lost souls wafting
around Walmart. It has been years since I tried it on LSD, but a
little interstate commerce can make the experience richly rewarding
(and my Spanish has improved measurably). I even notice the
background music when I have a good buzz raging. Walmart is not the
evil AntiChrist that everyone condemns on reflex. It is a pleasure
palace for the proletariat.
|12.9.05 @ 3:37PM|#
Catalina, I am with you in that I can't make a lot of sense of
much of popular Christianity. At the same time, I don't think that
rejecting certain parts necessitates rejecting the whole. I have
always struggled with the idea of a Holy Trinity. Okay, so I can't
make sense of that, and I set it aside. Even without that
particular doctrine, though, there's still a lot left that does
make sense to me, and I'm not going to reject the rest just because
I can't accept that one certain part.
I think that the important point is that the doctrine of the
Trinity and some others doctrines are based on after the fact
interpretations of the certain things said by Jesus and the
apostles that aren't necessarily correct interpretations, and that
can perhaps be excised from the core without affecting the core
itself. Sort of like cutting dead branches off the tree without
damaging the trunk. Given that the aforementioned doctrines may be
simply mistakes made by fallible men means that I may set aside
certain parts, yet retain the option of accepting what does strike
me as sensible, and what strikes me as sensible about it is quite a
lot.
|12.9.05 @ 3:41PM|#
Let�s assume that John D�s figures are correct and Christians,
of one stripe or another, are the majority religion in this
country. The political party that currently holds control of
congress is almost entirely Christian of a very traditionalist
persuasion. The sitting president is a self-professed "born-again"
Christian. Over the last 5 years, Conservative Christians have had
considerable political success: FDA disapproval of the Plan B
contraceptive, public funding of "faith based" social programs,
conservative influence over FCC rulings on �indecency� in the
media, many states have passes laws barring gay marriage, not to
mention the Christian Right�s success in having blatant creationism
snuck into public school biology courses under the guise of
"intelligent design." Yet John, and many like him, portrays
American Christians as an oppressed people, stripped of all rights,
and victims of "intolerance" from those hypocritical, fiendish
atheists and their godless, liberal allies in the ACLU.
However, as one of John�s hated atheists, I don�t have a problem
with anyone who says "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Chanukah" of even
"Jolly Saturnalia." I keep this season in my own way, I don�t
begrudge anyone their good time, and I appreciate the intentions of
the greeting in which it is given. However, since I�m not psychic
(not that there are any psychics) and we don�t have our religious
affiliations tattooed on our foreheads, I prefer use �Happy
Holidays� as a courtesy to make sure I�ve got all my bases covered.
When someone says "Happy Holidays," they are
acknowledging the Christmas� and Chanukah� and New Years� and
Kwanza� and all the other celebrations, religious or not, that are
going on this month.
Yet, while I�m the filthy unbeliever who allegedly wants to take
away his precious holiday, John, by the tone and manner of his
comments, seems to blow his stack if anyone was foolish enough to
mention any holiday other than the one�s he practices. To them, the
entire month of December is the wholly (and holy) owned monopoly of
Christianity. No other faiths, creeds, or lack of faiths and creeds
exist. All must acknowledge the existence of Christ...
...and I'm the one who needs to be lectured about
tolerance and intolerance?
Forgive me for thinking it vindictive for the Cultural Warriors to
lift their collective leg and mark this month as their
territory, but there is no "War on Christmas" any more than there
is a "War" on the other religious holidays, and this society isn�t
a pissing contest between Christians and non-Christians.
|12.9.05 @ 3:43PM|#
VM,
Thank you for feeling my pain. Actually, the run-up to Christmas is
even more annoying; this occurs during Advent, which like Lent is
supposed to be a time of repentance for a Catholic, in preparation
for the holy day to arrive. Not that I have any right to expect
society to cooperate with my spiritual exercises, but it is
irritating.
|12.9.05 @ 3:45PM|#
You cut me right to the bone.
Crushinator,
Not exactly sure what that means, but I hope I didn't hurt you,
anyway.
It is a pleasure palace for the proletariat.
I thought that was Target. :)
I myself never wandered around in public while high, or at least I
avoided it. Of course there was that shopping spree I went on on
the Fourth of July a few years back while *ahem* under the
influence, but besides that, rarely did I seek to be in public
places, especially public places like Walmart or Kmart or S-mart.
Being under flourescent lights is a scary enough experience for me
when I am sober...
VM|12.9.05 @ 3:52PM|#
i do appreciate the conundrum you're in.
growing up, a family friend of ours was minister at a presbyterian
church - a tall fellow. booming voice. presence lit up the room.
great. wonderful person.
i'd go along to the xmas eve service just to hear him (and to sing
"o holy night" more on that in a sec). his final sermon before
retiring was a story that only a few of us had heard before. how he
found his calling.
dec 24, 1944 his ship was off the french coast, and as midnight
hit, he and a few buddies went up on deck to sing a carol, quietly.
they sang "oh holy night". a nazi sub torpeoed the ship, killing
almost everybody onboard.
he ended up in berlin in the "four in a jeep". when he refused to
shoot somebody suspected of being a nazi, he was transferred to the
pow camp.
as a kid, it was meaningful thinking about how and why H.A.
survived. he is a great person.
(and he'd really ham up and get into "lord of the dance" at
eastertime. lots of fun)
|12.9.05 @ 5:02PM|#
So how come the Trinity doesn't include Mary?
Just a couple of years back, a group petitioned the Vatican to
declare her something you might call the "Fourth Member of the
Trinity". It didn't go through.
|12.9.05 @ 5:14PM|#
Akira, it's not "jolly Saturnalia!" What kind of pagan are you? Io Saturnalia; Io, Io, Io!
|12.9.05 @ 5:19PM|#
"Xmas At K-Mart - Root Boy Slim & The Sex Change Band"
(c. 1978 by Greenlee, MacKenzie & Lancaster)
"Hey Santa I hear you just got in from San Jose
Got a little trouble out that way
But I got a little song that'll pick up your spirits the most
Goes kinda like this...
Christmas at K-mart all over the store
Christmas at K-mart, Christmas at K-mart
People are buying just a little bit more
Christmas at K-mart, Christmas at K-mart
So if you're still shopping with money to spend
Christmas at K-mart, Christmas at K-mart
How about this album by Root Boy Slim?
Christmas at K-mart, Christmas at K-mart
The mood ring counter is all aglow
Christmas at K-mart, Christmas at K-mart
When Root Boy starts his Christmas show
Christmas at K-mart, Christmas at K-mart
Winos sleep on the hot air grill
Christmas at K-mart, Christmas at K-mart
Hippies'll take their Christmas pill
Christmas at K-mart, Christmas at K-mart
Costs are up, sold out tonight
Christmas at K-mart, Christmas at K-mart
Those locker room users in their usual fright
Christmas at K-mart, Christmas at K-mart
That lingerie counter was grab and go
Christmas at K-mart, Christmas at K-mart
Shoplifters bags on overflow
Christmas at K-mart, Christmas at K-mart
Santa got a dose in San Jose
Christmas at K-mart, Christmas at K-mart
Comes to the K-mart once, loves to stay
Christmas at K-mart, Christmas at K-mart
I musta died and gone to heaven
Christmas at K-mart
Cause hell is Christmas at the 7-11"
|12.9.05 @ 5:32PM|#
Some people just live to get offended and to raise a stink
about nothing in particular. Some of them are on the left. Others
have shows on Fox.
Which leads to another question: how do charmless morons like John
Gibson and Nancy Grace wind up getting their own talk shows? No,
never mind - no answer necessary...
|12.9.05 @ 5:48PM|#
Jim, thanks for the thoughtful response. Despite the slightly
acid tone of my post, I actually love listening to people discuss
religion and philosophy (though, probably like you, I don't get the
connection between serious ideas and a "Merry Christmas!" sign
taped up over a display of lawn mowers at WalMart).
And linguist, thanks for the info. I need to learn more about Baal.
All I know about it is that episode of the original Star Trek where
the natives worship an enormous angry-looking paper-mache face and
wear white lipstick.
|12.9.05 @ 6:00PM|#
Io, Saturnalia, indeed. To celebrate, we should do the traditional role reversal here. On the winter solstice, we commenters will write articles for Reason, and the editors and writers will be consigned to Hit & Run. Should be fun.
|12.9.05 @ 6:03PM|#
pro lib, the server squirrel needs to choose a random poster and make him webmaster for the day. Jove would be pleased.
|12.9.05 @ 6:21PM|#
To celebrate, we should do the traditional role reversal
here. On the winter solstice, we commenters will write articles for
Reason, and the editors and writers will be consigned to Hit &
Run.
Wow! That would be so fun.
I don't know if the editors and writers could cut it, though. It
might be tough to fill our shoes. Bad bathroom humor and ad hominem
attacks don't just materialize.
|12.9.05 @ 8:32PM|#
Please, nobody get pissed at me, but Happy World Year of
Physics, Everyone!
Heathen!
;-)
|12.9.05 @ 9:18PM|#
I hope that some of the people, who are so upset over this "War on Christmas" shit, will read Ryan McMaken�s article. I could never understand people who put a lot of energy in petty shit instead of debating and getting involved with more serious matters.
|12.9.05 @ 9:19PM|#
"Akira, it's not "jolly Saturnalia!" What kind of pagan are you?
Io Saturnalia; Io, Io, Io!"
I been meaning to ax: Is IO pronounced "Yo," as in, "Yo, what be
goin' down?"
(By the way, my homeys be busy, busy, busy raht now makin' xmurs
cheer to be sold at a very reasonable price on a street corner near
yo.)
|12.9.05 @ 10:00PM|#
John Dendy,
As a libertarian I wouldn't complain if those in the U.S.
voluntarily walked away from your religion (or any religion). Good
riddance.
Pro Libertate,
As an aside, the vast majority of Christians in this country
appear to be perfectly sane about religion.
Are you sure about that given the significant numbers of them who
believe that angels really are on board. Hell, I knew joe was nuts
when he finally admitted that the reason economic rights aren't as
important to him was because God told him they weren't.
___________________________________
That Christians get upset over these sort of things simply
demonstrates how intellectually and morally bankrupt the Christian
religion is.
Humble|12.9.05 @ 10:26PM|#
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't "holiday" derive from "Holy Day"? Therefore, when someone wishes "Happy Holidays" aren't they actually wishing "Happy Holy Days" which could cover Christmas, Hannukah and Saturnalia?
|12.9.05 @ 11:43PM|#
Thanks, Hakluyt. We were all waiting with baited breath to find out your position on this issue... ;-)
|12.9.05 @ 11:44PM|#
Akira, it's not "jolly Saturnalia!" What kind of pagan are
you?
Well, as an atheist, I not a pagan, I'm a blasphemer which is
supposedly worse.
Io Saturnalia...
Is that anything like "Ia! Ia! Cthulhu fhtagn?"
(BTW, any and all Lovecraft fans out there, if you haven't seen
"The Call Of
Cthulhu" fan film, I highly recommend it.)
|12.9.05 @ 11:54PM|#
Tonight my ultra-Catholic father was complaining about this very
issue. He was upset that Target was sticking by its "Happy Holiday"
guns and not letting the Xians roll over them.
I pointed out to them that there are other religious holidays going
on this month. His enlightened answer:
"What? You mean for the 5 kikes and 3 kwanza-niggers who still live
in this country?"
I think I've seen the true colors of the pro-Christmas crowd.
|12.9.05 @ 11:56PM|#
Akira, I painted with too broad a brush, perhaps heathen would
be more fitting :). Also, yes, it's sort of like that - in The
Horror at Red Hook he has people shouting "Io Pan!" which is the
same thing, except for Pan.
Io - it's the Latin "huzzah"
|12.10.05 @ 8:26AM|#
Hakluyt, I'm a little baffled as to why you think that libertarianism is by definition divorced from religious faith. Mine isn't. In fact, the concept of democracy and limited government in American history has come largely from the idea that man is sinful, and therefore no man is good and wise enough to exercise unrestricted power over his fellows. Take for example Jefferson's question, "Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him?"
|12.10.05 @ 9:22AM|#
Jim Nelson,
Hakluyt, I'm a little baffled as to why you think that
libertarianism is by definition divorced from religious
faith.
I didn't write that it necessarily was, so I'm not quite sure what
your damage is.
In fact, the concept of democracy and limited government in
American history has come largely from the idea that man is
sinful...
No, it doesn't. It comes from classical Greek and Roman models as
well as Renaissance and Enlightenment ideas on the nature of man
which were largely secular in nature. I suggest (as a start) that
you read Montesquieu.
|12.10.05 @ 9:24AM|#
Jim Nelson,
It never ceases to amaze me how ignorant religionists like yourself
always ascribe human progress to religion when the vast majority of
writers and thinkers on the subject of liberal societies have been
decidedly secular in their analyses.
|12.10.05 @ 9:26AM|#
Jim Nelson,
As to you religious beliefs, I don't care one whit about what
irrational belief system you ascribe to.
|12.10.05 @ 10:32AM|#
Take for example Jefferson's question, "Sometimes it is said
that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he,
then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found
angels in the forms of kings to govern him?"
I think you're taking this quote way out of context, especially
given what else Jefferson had to say about
religion and Christianity in particular. Besides, organized
religions, like governments, are also run by human beings who
aren't perfect either despite their faith.
|12.10.05 @ 10:39AM|#
Akira,
Yeah, I shouldn't have just written off the quote as being a
non-sensical usage and should have written something about it.
|12.10.05 @ 10:42AM|#
Akira,
Then again, taking statements out of context, putting words in the
mouth of speakers, etc. is a common trait amongst Christian
apologists. Witness the faux-quote attributed to James Madison by
many Christians for example. I get the impression that the ideology
of religionists is so strong they'd rather create falsehoods than
question their belief (e.g., witness what Christians did with
various classical works and how they tried to eradicate them or
change their text).
|12.10.05 @ 11:41AM|#
smacky, what will our cover story be about? It should be
something libertarian with offbeat pop-culture references, I think
;)
No, wait, I have it. Remember that cool cover that Reason
did for subscribers, where each cover had a satellite photo of the
subscriber's home? Let's do the same thing, only this time, each
cover will have a personally tailored ad hominem attack.
That's so us, as you so astutely noted.
Io, Saturnalia!
VM|12.10.05 @ 11:53AM|#
just heard the madison one a few weeks ago from someone who
would be insulting to the religious folks here. this bozo drops
"born again christian, like me" and "praise jesus" (complete with
hand gestures and looking up) whenever he can. often trying to
change the conversation to throw in one of those
markers-of-how-"religious"-he-is.
he cites reagan and likes being "small government conservative, but
there are times when you need a strong government. like what
madison said. he was born again, like me." (madison =deist. 'born
again' not around for about 80+ years after him)
i would suspect that this person's antics would not be appreciated
by those with faiths that don't need proclaiming at any and every
opportunity; nor would those whose faiths don't get shaken by the
smallest of things.
Pro: :)
toodles.
|12.11.05 @ 2:05AM|#
Jim Nelson,
Take for example Hayek's statement in The Road to Serfdom, "We
are rapidly abandoning not the views merely of Cobden and Brith, of
Adam Smith and Hume, or even of Locke and Milton, but one of the
salient characteristics of Western civilisation as it has grown
from the foundations laid by Christianity and the Greeks and
Romans."
When it comes to historical or philosophical analysis I take Hayek
with a grain of salt. Christianity is and remains a budensome yoke
upon mankind.
You can keep C.S. Lewis.
|12.11.05 @ 4:03AM|#
Christianity is and remains a budensome yoke upon mankind.
A bizarre statement given that Christianity is spread through
non-violent, non-oppressive means in the modern world, and mostly
so in the past. If it is a yoke, then it is strange that so many
choose it. Here we live in the most Christianized nation of the
great powers, and yet also the one which is most distrusting of
authority. We are not a people given to handing ourselves over to
slavery, and yet Christianity thrives. America's tradition of
freedom has not come in spite of Christianity, but largely because
of it.
A more important point though is that it is religious motivation
that is behind most of the charitable work that is being done
around the world. In the aftermath of natural disasters I see the
Salvation Army and Clara Barton's Red Cross helping. I see
charitable hospitals built by religious organizations. I see
halfway houses, homeless shelters and soup kitchens being run by
churches. I see missionaries in Africa and Latin America giving
shelter, food and medicine to the poor. Nearly every revolution
against tyranny has been at least partially based in the belief
that the rulers were oppressive of the God given rights of man.
What does atheism have to its name? The various communist
revolutions is all I can think of off the top of my head. If you
want those, consider them yours.
|12.11.05 @ 11:25AM|#
Jim Nelson,
A bizarre statement given that Christianity is spread through
non-violent, non-oppressive means in the modern world...
In the modern world it is contracting.
...and mostly so in the past.
Wrong. Christianity was spread by the sword throughout the length
of Europe, Latin America, etc. - temporally and geographically.
Whether we are discussing the persecution of Roman pagans,
Charlemagne's wars of conquest and conversion against the Germans,
etc. Your ham handed efforts to deny the blood nature of your
religion won't do.
We are not a people given to handing ourselves over to
slavery...
You really aren't paying attention, are you?
America's tradition of freedom has not come in spite of
Christianity, but largely because of it.
That's a flat out lie and has no basis in the historical record and
is as moronic as those who claim that American law is based on the
Decalogue.
Your examples are largely based on the charitable works of
Christians (which have always been problematic in and of themselves
given that charity and oppressive empire have generally been
synonomous), but that says nothing about freedom or liberty or the
philosophical doctrines which got us to Locke, Montesquieu, etc. -
authors you would do well to read someday.
What does atheism have to its name?
Aside from atheists being murdered by Christians? How about the
large number of scientists who are atheists?
|12.11.05 @ 11:27AM|#
Jim Nelson,
Nearly every revolution against tyranny has been at least
partially based in the belief that the rulers were oppressive of
the God given rights of man.
You are confusing the rhetoric of the American revolution, and
specifically one text associated with it, with every other
revolution. I don't recall the Velvet Revolution discussing such
after all (just by way of example).
|12.11.05 @ 11:30AM|#
Jim Nelson,
Also, let me blunt about this, charity does not fix the problems
creating the need for it, its at best a very paternalistic,
insulting form of temporary relief.
Next you'll be telling me the wonders of AA, which is itself total
bunk.
|12.11.05 @ 2:39PM|#
In the modern world it is contracting.
Please. Christianity is growing worldwide. It is particularly
exploding in the third world. In America it remains pretty steady.
This is partly due to a lot of Christian immigration, but then the
same reason can be given for the decline of Christianity in Europe.
The reason it has declined there is largely due to falling birth
rates and a high level of Islamist immigration. There is some even
some dispute as to whether Islam is really the fastest growing
religion in the world when spread by way of conversion. It is
growing fast of course, but much of this is because most Muslim
nations have high birth rates.
That's a flat out lie and has no basis in the historical record
and is as moronic as those who claim that American law is based on
the Decalogue...You are confusing the rhetoric of the American
revolution, and specifically one text associated with it, with
every other revolution. I don't recall the Velvet Revolution
discussing such after all (just by way of example).
Reread the documents associated with the American Revolution and
the founding of this country. You will find reams of references to
tyranny as being opposed to the Will of God. Even the sceptic
Thomas Paine, in The Crisis, Number 1 wrote, "I have as
little superstition in me as any man living, but my secret opinion
has ever been, and still is, that God Almighty will not give up a
people to military destruction, or leave them unsupportedly to
perish, who have so earnestly and so repeatedly sought to avoid the
calamities of war, by every decent method which wisdom could
invent. Neither have I so much of the infidel in me as to suppose
that He has relinquisheed the government of the world, and given us
up to the care of devils; and as I do not, I cannot see on what
grounds the king of Britain can look up to heaven for help against
us."
Not enough? Look at the motivations of abolitionists. To pick one
example William Lloyd Garrison, who was moved by his Christian
faith. The Civil Rights movement? Ditto.
Your examples are largely based on the charitable works of
Christians (which have always been problematic in and of themselves
given that charity and oppressive empire have generally been
synonomous)
Please, enlighten me on the imperial aspirations of the Christian
Children's Fund.
Aside from atheists being murdered by Christians?
Not really relevant to the question I asked, but if you want to
bring up persecution, okay. Communism anyone?
How about the large number of scientists who are
atheists?
Oh, right, I forgot about all the scientists who do their research
in the name of atheism. Those who investigate nature in the
furtherance of their atheist duties. Let me ask you something. Do
you think it possible that their scientific devotion might be to a,
you know, devotion to science rather than to atheism?
Also, let me blunt about this, charity does not fix the
problems creating the need for it, its at best a very
paternalistic, insulting form of temporary relief.
Yes, the the third world children who were starving and now have
food, shelter and clothing must feel truly insulted. What do you
want the missionaries to do? Open factories in totalitarian
countries? Even if this were feasible and they did it you would
soon be accusing them of operating sweatshop labor.
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