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Kerry Howley talks to Harvard researcher Susan Clancy about how the mind conjures up memories of alien abduction, sexual abuse, and contact with God.
|12.8.05 @ 10:25AM|#
While I 99.9% sure she is correct about alien abductions being
false or implanted memories, I'm a little uncomfortable with her
admitted presumption of such. It's not very scientific to enter an
investigation with the conclusion already written...
For instance, if I told her that I had spoken to a ghost, she would
presume that I was lying, crazy, or delusional. But, she would be
wrong. I don't presume to understand what a ghost is, or how/why I
happened to have recorded the voice of a dead kid, but I know for
certain that it did happen (I also have 3 fellow witnesses who have
the identical recall - plus, we duplicated the feat again several
months later).
|12.8.05 @ 10:28AM|#
Lemur,
...would presume that I was lying, crazy, or
delusional.
Actually, she wouldn't. Did you even RTFA?
|12.8.05 @ 10:31AM|#
Anyway, it was an interesting interview though it doesn't tell
me anything that I don't already know. Hypnosis makes one even more
prone to confabulation.
Lemur,
BTW, if you really do have a "tape" of a dead boy's voice, then try
to win James Randi's prize.
|12.8.05 @ 10:32AM|#
Lemur, these people will pay you or anyone else a million bucks to demonstrate your claims. Remember who told you when you collect.
|12.8.05 @ 10:36AM|#
ouldn't agree more with Kerry Howley.
Scary, isn't it? Somebody's fantasies land people in jail while the
underlying topic can't even be discussed, much less
researched.
All the while legislators fall over each other unanimously passing
draconian laws which are dutifully carried out. Nobody should have
any trust in the legal system, but, alas, the aliens could come for
them tomorrow, but a specious prosecution? Can't happen to
them.
I've heard it too often: "This may be an imperfect system, but
still the best there is."
If you know that, why don't you work to make it better?
|12.8.05 @ 10:37AM|#
Program for my atheist group meeting in Sinincincinnati:
Tuesday, 20 December at 7 PM
Some Recent Speculations on the
Nature and Function of Religion
Speaker: Professor Bill Jensen
Why are humans religious? What is the origin of the religious
impulse? Is it biological, psychological or cultural in nature or
all three? The talk will summarize some recent attempts to answer
these questions by such diverse writers as the Australian
philosopher David Stove, the American anthropologist Stewart
Guthrie, and the Canadian philosopher Paul Thagard.
|12.8.05 @ 10:39AM|#
Incidentally, as an undergrad, one of my majors was religion. My
single best prof, who sharpened my critical faculties more than any
other, took the same approach - why do we find belief in aliens to
be incredible, but belief in God(s) to be credible? .... and it
started with a Stewart Guthrie book! ... I never use the Preview
button, but Ruthless, right on.
Naturally, it led into, yep, you guessed it, the same kind of
exploration of data, theory, and the human mind that this woman
appears to be engaged in. FWIW, I highly recommend Pascal Boyer's
Religion Explained for what appears to be a similar kind of
look, for anyone interested in this kind of thing.
|12.8.05 @ 10:41AM|#
Carl Sagan speculated that alien abductions were basically updated versions of the incubus/succubus visitations people reported in the Middle Ages. Whatever the heck is happening (and I am firmly convinced it's happening inside the victim's head, not outside, to the victim's body) is viewed through a contemporary cultural lens: God or demons in the religious medieval period, alien beings in our more scientific age.
|12.8.05 @ 10:43AM|#
Adam,
Because the God worshipper often has an old text they can shake in
front of your face. That's how they ultimately differentiate both
ideas.
|12.8.05 @ 10:44AM|#
Hakluyt - Yes, I did read the article. I also spoke with her in
person a couple weeks ago. I'm not sure what the hell you are
talking about.
Also, I am so sure that they would not actually give me $1 million
dollars that it is not worth my effort to try. It's not like I can
easily replicate the experience with 100% certainty. Besides, I
would consider it dangerous to try. When we first spoke to the
ghost, it spoke in a normal, calm voice. The second recording
consisted of "you fucking cunts" in a very terrifying voice. We
immediately destroyed that tape. There are copies of the first tape
around, but why would they believe me when I told them how it was
made? It would be pretty easy to fake such a recording.
Besides, I already have enough money - an extra million wouldn't
impact my lifestyle in any significant manner...
|12.8.05 @ 10:49AM|#
Lemur,
She emphasizes in the interview that these are "normal people." I'm
fairly certain she'd say the same thing about believers in
ghosts.
As to your yarn, all I can say in my best impersonation of Bill
Cosby: "Right!"
Besides, I already have enough money - an extra million
wouldn't impact my lifestyle in any significant
manner...
Are you being sarcastic or serious here?
|12.8.05 @ 10:53AM|#
At least we should grant that, with the name, Lemur, he/she
shares sleep patterns with ghosts.
That should count for quite a bit.
|12.8.05 @ 10:53AM|#
Adam,
I've made the same comparison here between religious belief and
other forms of "belief" here as well; be it feng shui, acestral
projection, mind over matter, using magnets to heal, healing touch,
etc. The human mind has an excellant capacity to accept as
believeable all sorts of wierd things that when subjected to normal
rational analysis fall apart.
|12.8.05 @ 11:03AM|#
I already have enough money - an extra million wouldn't
impact my lifestyle in any significant manner...
But if what you say is true, wouldn't you want the information to
come out anyway? Not for the money, but because of the profound
impact physical evidence of life after death would have upon the
human race? Your saying "I can prove this but screw it, I don't
need the money" would be like a researcher saying "Why should I
bother marketing this cancer cure I just invented? I'm already
rich."
Call Randi! If you don't need the million yourself, donate it to a
charity you deem worthy.
|12.8.05 @ 11:12AM|#
...if I told her that I had spoken to a ghost, she would
presume that I was lying, crazy, or delusional. But, she would be
wrong. I don't presume to understand what a ghost is, or how/why I
happened to have recorded the voice of a dead kid, but I know for
certain that it did happen (I also have 3 fellow witnesses who have
the identical recall - plus, we duplicated the feat again several
months later).
"Crazy" or "delusional?" That's sort of like being "happy" or
"glad," right?
As Adam and Hak have suggested, you should apply for the JREF prize
and try to collect a cool million. Hell, if you can prove ghosts
exist you will not only be eligible for even more riches (media
appearances, book deals, a Noble Prize in Physics, etc.), you will
have turned known science on its collective ear and indeed, utterly
re-write what we know about reality.
Of course, you won't do it. There is no such thing as ghosts.
You're very upbeat, in the end, about the power of the alien
abduction narrative to fill a spiritual need.
As an atheist, I don't understand this desire "to fill a spiritual
need." This is mainly because I don't believe there is anything
"spiritual" in this materialistic universe; no gods or devils, no
heaven or hell, no "soul" or other ancient superstitions I
understand that humans are a inquisitive species, and that's good,
but we have this nasty habit of filling in the gaps of our
knowledge with complete bullshit. For some reason, we can't accept
the explanations that science gives us (when it can give us an
answer right away) and we go off on a wild tangent to make up the
difference.
As for extraterrestrials; I don't discount the possibility of their
existence. The universe is a very big place and if it stands to
reason that intelligent life evolved on one planet--namely our
own--then I say the chances are good that it has happened (or will
happen) on another. However, I also accept that I could be wrong,
humanity could be a cosmic fluke, and we really are all alone in
the universe. Even if there is intelligent life beyond us mere
Earthmen, I don't think that we are being visited nightly by gray,
midget, James Carville look-alikes with a odd interest in
proctology who travel countless light-years to torment trailer pack
trash and schizophrenics.
|12.8.05 @ 11:13AM|#
I have to agree with Jennifer here. This life is such a
nightmare of misery and we are all so terrified of dying that
certain knowledge that death is not the end will vastly improve the
psychological and emotional lives of all humankind, and it is
Lemur's duty to provide us that knowledge, should (s)he have
it.
Unless, of course, the afterlife is an eternity of screaming "you
fucking cunts." In that case, ignorance may be bliss.
|12.8.05 @ 11:17AM|#
Actually, the terms of The Amazing Randi's deal are pretty lame. They get to decide if anything supernatural is going on, you can't dispute it, and they get the right to publish/ profit from the tape of the potty-mouthed ghost or the video of me flapping my arms and flying around the room. Big deal.
|12.8.05 @ 11:22AM|#
Well, SRS, it doesn't have to be Randi to whom Lemur turns over his tape. I'll be honest--I don't think Lemur has anything. But IF he did, I think that withholding it would be downright criminal (at least in an ethical sense).
|12.8.05 @ 11:23AM|#
"This life is such a nightmare of misery and we are all so
terrified of dying ..."
Er, I don't know that these to claims together make a lot of sense
to me. If it sucks so bad, why be afraid of getting out?
I think the answer is that it doesn't suck so much.
|12.8.05 @ 11:23AM|#
I am so sure that they would not actually give me $1 million
dollars that it is not worth my effort to try.
Randi and his foundation are legally obligated to give the money to
the applicant if they can prove their supernatural ability
according to the test protocols. If he doesn't, he's in big trouble
with the State of Florida.
It's not like I can easily replicate the experience with 100%
certainty. Besides, I would consider it dangerous to
try.
My, how convenient.
Besides, I already have enough money - an extra million
wouldn't impact my lifestyle in any significant
manner...
What? You can't think of a worthy charity that could use $1
million? If you don't "need the money" then why not give it to
UNICEF, cancer or AIDS research, or to help starving tarot card
readers?
|12.8.05 @ 11:24AM|#
Hearing a "very terrifying voice" and twice being scared shitless is enough to pass up a million dollars? You must have very different priorities than I do.
|12.8.05 @ 11:25AM|#
the afterlife is an eternity of screaming "you fucking
cunts."
Interesting, that the connection between sex and aggression
continues even amongst pre-pubescent dead people who, presumably,
cannot reproduce and thus have no sexual urges.
Warren|12.8.05 @ 11:40AM|#
The recovered memories problem is a serious one in regards to
allegations of abuse, and a pathetic one in regard to alien
abduction. I liked the article and wish her well in promoting her
work.
However, I was stunned to read that "repression is dead". Over the
years I've encountered quite a few accounts of people who
experienced traumatic events (like rape) blocking it from their
minds. Is she really saying that that doesn't happen?
|12.8.05 @ 11:45AM|#
Actually, the terms of The Amazing Randi's deal are pretty
lame.
Yeah, because that whole "scientific method" thing with it's
"double blind testing" is totally bogus, dude.
Uncle Sam|12.8.05 @ 11:45AM|#
I suggest the the "abducted" people should be surveyed to find
out if they had ever had any childhiood medical procedures.
Pictures of aliens bear a similarity to masked medical personnel as
seen from below.
Uncle Sam|12.8.05 @ 11:47AM|#
/similarly, rememberances of childhood ritual abuse could simply be interpreted memories of being cleaned up during diaper changes.
|12.8.05 @ 11:59AM|#
SOme questions for the recovered-traumatic-memory crowd:
Have there ever been cases of, for example, Jews who woke up one
morning and suddenly remembered, "Hey! I'm a concentration-camp
survivor! Until today I totally forgot those three years I spent at
Dachau!" I highly doubt it.
What, if anything, is the length-limit for a memory that is capable
of being repressed? For example, if you can completely block a
memory of a single fifteen-minute rape, can you also block out the
memory of five such rapes at irregular intervals? What about five
per week, over a one-year period? Five years? Ten years? How long
does it take for the victim to repress something--is the victim
aware of it while it's happening, and then blocks it immediately
upon leaving the room? Does the victim forget it five minutes
later? A week? Month? Year?
Ed|12.8.05 @ 12:03PM|#
Just because your ass is bleeding doesn't mean you have been abducted by aliens.
|12.8.05 @ 12:07PM|#
It is indisputably clear that Lemur is either a hoaxer or the victim of a hoax. After reading his very strange rationalizations for having nothing and doing nothing, I know which I prefer.
|12.8.05 @ 12:08PM|#
I think it's worth noting that the article distinguishes between
memories that suddenly appear vs. memories that suddenly make
sense. People who sit down and think about something that happened
years ago and, with the benefit of experience, realize that a bad
thing happened.
I would be curious to find out how many convictions are based on
truly "new" memories, vs. how many are based on people who finally
thought one day about something that's always kind of been in the
back of their minds, and realized "Wow, that was pretty fucked
up!"
|12.8.05 @ 12:12PM|#
Just because your ass is bleeding doesn't mean you have been
abducted by aliens.
Heh... Penn & Teller: Bullshit covered alien abduction
in there first season. At one point during that episode, they
showed a woman who claimed to be abducted a mock-up of an "alien
probe." She immediately recognized it as one of the advanced pieces
of medical technology the aliens used on her during her
abductions.
Of course, the "probe" was a sex toy spray-painted silver.
|12.8.05 @ 12:23PM|#
I would be curious to find out how many convictions are
based on truly "new" memories, vs. how many are based on people who
finally thought one day about something that's always kind of been
in the back of their minds, and realized "Wow, that was pretty
fucked up!"
There have been convictions for things as outlandish as "I just
remembered that Daddy used to rape me on a Satanic altar each week,
and then he would kill a goat and make me drink its blood."
Timothy|12.8.05 @ 12:27PM|#
I just remembered that Daddy used to rape me on a Satanic
altar each week, and then he would kill a goat and make me drink
its blood.
Aside from the rape, that sounds like something we should
encourage. I mean, we want parental involvement, right?
|12.8.05 @ 12:29PM|#
"Members at the faculty at Harvard told me to stay out of this
area because I would jeopardize getting a position when I got out
of graduate school."
Imagine that. The pressure to dumb-down* science comes as much from
the liberal elite as it does from fundy christians. Maybe I've been
reading too much Feynman, but it sure seems that grinding political
axes is anathema to scientific discovery.
*by dumb-down, I mean to fail to follow where the evidence
leads.
|12.8.05 @ 12:30PM|#
"The human mind has an excellant capacity to accept as
believeable all sorts of wierd things that when subjected to normal
rational analysis fall apart."
I wholly agree. Speculations on why this is a human universal? What
would be the advantage to use having developed this way?
Re: repressed memories. What, really, is the difference between an
experience that has been "blocked" or repressed, and a memory that
"hasn't been thought about for years". In practice, I don't see any
difference. One can willfully not think about a traumatic
experience, which is an accepted phenomenon (denial). If one does
this long enough, has one not "repressed" the memories?
|12.8.05 @ 12:32PM|#
I have to recommend everyone read Michael Shermer's "Why People Believe Weird Things." It goes into the issue of "repressed memories" and their connection to alien abductions and "satanic panic" quite well.
|12.8.05 @ 12:32PM|#
I do know a girl who, while under the influence of MDMA,
remembered that her mother had an abortion when she was younger, so
that she never had a baby sister. It seemed to be pretty traumatic
for her, and I talked her back down, and she was just amazed that
she remembered it because she was pretty young at the time of her
mother's abortion.
So I think you can have a repressed memory, but I also think that
Susan Clancy is right that just because you haven't thought about
it in years doesn't mean you've buried it to the traumaticness of
the experience, but just because you really didn't know what to
make of it at the time.
|12.8.05 @ 12:33PM|#
"Carl Sagan speculated that alien abductions were basically
updated versions of the incubus/succubus visitations people
reported in the Middle Ages. Whatever the heck is happening (and I
am firmly convinced it's happening inside the victim's head, not
outside, to the victim's body) is viewed through a contemporary
cultural lens: God or demons in the religious medieval period,
alien beings in our more scientific age."
I agree
With that theory
Wholeheartedly
|12.8.05 @ 12:40PM|#
Imagine that. The pressure to dumb-down* science comes as
much from the liberal elite as it does from fundy
christians.
noStar, after the
creationist drivel you spewed recently, I'm calling tu qouque.
Viking (2+2=postmodern giraffe|12.8.05 @ 12:40PM|#
" science comes as much from the liberal elite as it does from
fundy christians. "
basically by a bunch of assholes who are "scared" of math. they
have these ideas and don't want to question their own place.
there's some guy at mises who talks about econometrics in incorrect
terms and defines it to tear it town in the name of him not
understanding the complex subject. what a friggin tool.
Akira: great P&T episode.
jennifer: Greg Graffin wrote some stuff about what you said. and
werewolves. witches. monsters. aliens. panties-- damn what a
giveaway.
and then there's the south park where everything surrounded stuff
going into and coming out of cartman's ass.
|12.8.05 @ 12:51PM|#
I'm sure Thoreau and others are on to something when they talk
about cases where "It's not that I suddenly remembered this; it's
that I suddenly realized what the memory means."
However, I don't think this applies to this "repressed memory"
stuff, because according to proponents of repressed memory
syndrome, the reason you repress a memory in the first place is
because it was so horrible and painful and traumatic that your mind
just couldn't function whilst aware of it. That's quite different
from "Oh, no wonder Uncle Ernie wanted us to keep our
'Ride the Unicorn' game a secret!"
Dave W.|12.8.05 @ 12:53PM|#
Maybe Congress should ban legal actions based on recovered memories. Catholic Church could probably get behind that one.
|12.8.05 @ 12:59PM|#
IMPORTANT: Only claims that can be verified by evidence
under proper observing conditions will be accepted. JREF will NOT
accept claims of the existence of deities or demons/angels, the
validity of exorcism, religious claims, cloudbusting, causing the
Sun to rise or the stars to move, etc. JREF will also NOT test
claims that are likely to cause injury of any sort, such as those
involving the withholding of air, food or water, or the use of
illicit materials, drugs, or dangerous devices.
Akira, maybe this paragraph is what SRS and Lemur were referring to
about the lameness of the test, especially the last sentence.
|12.8.05 @ 1:04PM|#
Akira: I seem to have misrecollected the lameness of the rules- specifically, I recalled a boilerplate paragraph about the final decision of the judges not being subject to legal challenge; that paragraph seems to exist exclusively in my fevered imagination. My apologies.
|12.8.05 @ 1:07PM|#
An indispensable sourse is the False Memory Syndrome Foundation, www.fmsfonline.org/. Also, check out the depressing and fascinating work by Elizabeth Loftus.
|12.8.05 @ 1:17PM|#
Juries tend to think that while many of the claims of children
re: a sex crime or a series of sex crimes are outlandish, that
there is no way a child of four or five or six could make up the
whole story. Of course all the research in this area demonstrates
that children can be induced to fabricate entire events out of thin
air. The use of dolls is an especially good way to roll out the
most incredible crap.
Indeed, I've watched children who were testifying before a camera
who, when confronted with an adept defense attorney, recanted
months and months worth of testimony as stories told for fun.
____________________________
As a side note, it should be remarked that when Clancy states that
the stories are generally quite similar, that there is a meme
associated with alien abduction, Clancy echoes what researchers
have found regarding the stories tortured out of men and women
during the early modern period regarding involvement in acts of
witchcraft - that a memes and tropes existed regarding the proper
way to come into a pact with the devil.
|12.8.05 @ 1:23PM|#
More specifically, the torture of a "witch" was just as much a mutual agreement as to the creation or description of a fake experience as the alien abduction scenarios created between a "therapist" and the "abductee." Of course in the former case an individual was often off to meet the flames of the "loving" Church.
|12.8.05 @ 1:42PM|#
My apologies.
Assuming you're being sincere, I accept.
Carl Sagan speculated that alien abductions were basically
updated versions of the incubus/succubus visitations people
reported in the Middle Ages.
...which is caused by sleep paralysis or what is called the "Night
Hag Syndrome." The thing is, once we figured out what was
happening, we could write off horny demons as an explaination. Yet,
in this day and age, we somehow ignore science and replace
"succubi" with "grey" and Chris Carter gets a hit TV show on
Fox.
Now, I don't find fault with people who can't explain phenomenon
since ignorance is a curable affliction. What bugs me are people
who willfully make absurd, untestable explanations and hold that
they could be the only ones. (i.e. alien conspiracies, alternative
medicine, creationism, etc.)
|12.8.05 @ 1:48PM|#
How do you pronounce tu quoque?
That's a good question. I just noticed that I misspelled it my
response to noStar. Damn.
|12.8.05 @ 1:59PM|#
Dictonary.com sez "too qwhoa quee", or something dangerously
close to that.
"too qwhoa quay" is listed as a second choice.
|12.8.05 @ 2:05PM|#
It is always nice to know that you've been pronouncing a phrase incorrectly in your head for 15 years or so. I'd always thought it was Too Coke.
|12.8.05 @ 2:07PM|#
Here's the link to the atheist meet in Sinincincinnati on Dec.
20.
www.gofigger.org
All welcome.
|12.8.05 @ 2:11PM|#
Perfectly sincere- I recalled having read the rules and
thinking, "That's rather toothless." But obviously that never
happened, which speaks to the issue of the reliability of
uncorroborated memories as well. And I've always been on your side,
in principle: I certainly don't believe in ghosts or alien
abduction or repressed memory syndrome.
Of course, you probably don't believe in Supernatural Rabbit
Scribes, which just goes to show you...
|12.8.05 @ 2:13PM|#
hmm I think I belive wierd crap...like ddt was banned becouse of
enviornmentalists and now poeple die from milaria becouse of
it...then i found tim lamberts blog and am not so sure...he posted
a bunch of unconfirmable facts that conflict with my unconfirmable
facts.
the same with global warming...the first time i heard about it i
was skeptical simply becouse i had learned from school and nova
that the earth had gone through huge climatic changes and those
definitlay did not happen becouse of GW..and when i pointed that
out i got accused of falling for oil company propiganda..the last
ice age was oil company propaganda?? i thought and got really
pissed. Since then i have become more and more entrenched against
the AGW argument and now i don't know if i can ever be convinced
that AGW is real no matter the evidence.
|12.8.05 @ 2:24PM|#
Perfectly sincere.
Oh, good, thank you. Sorry for the skepticism, but when you're only
dealing with text it's hard to gauge the emotion of the
authors.
Emoticons help, but they can, and have, been over-used. ;)
|12.8.05 @ 2:26PM|#
Akira,
I do not spout creationist drivel. I do not suggest ID as a subject
in a science class. I was making the point that when science is
taught as dogma, science is not being taught at all.
I have always had a problem with the idea that Darwinian evolution
takes place too slowly to observe directly. (My gut reaction was,
we might as well believe in the Lamarckian mechanism of acquired
characteristics. It too was postulated to move too slowly to
observe within a lifetime or even a century or two.)
An example of a more rapid Darwinian change albeit helped by man
was referenced (russian foxes) and a book "The Beak of the Finch"
which if the reviews are correct shows that recognizable change is
not dependent upon epochs.
In that I also made the point that when science is taught as dogma,
is it any wonder that creationist think it fair game that ID be
taught as science. If scientist and science teachers had done a
better job in teaching what science is, this confusion would have
been avoided or at least students would recognize it when presented
theories are backed with less than scientific rigor. So, I think
the charge of tu qoque is unwarranted. Part of the scientific
process is to question and probe at a theory's weaknesses.
I have, I hope, accepted graciously, evidence shown me.
dhex|12.8.05 @ 2:35PM|#
i have no good ghost stories. almost everyone else i know does, in some fashion. i'd like to know what's up with that.
|12.8.05 @ 2:36PM|#
In that I also made the point that when science is taught as
dogma, is it any wonder that creationist think it fair game that ID
be taught as science.
Science isn't taught as dogma, IMHO. It isn't taught as a method of
inquiry, either, but there are more options than just dogma vs.
method of inquiry.
Personally, I would say that the best description of science
teaching is neither dogmatic nor open, but simply "piss poor."
|12.8.05 @ 2:37PM|#
Lemur, I'll give you five bucks for the tape and an explanation of how you conjured the ghost. No lame rules either.
|12.8.05 @ 2:39PM|#
I saw a ghost a long time ago.
I know that none of you will believe me. I didn't have a video
camera when it happened.
I'm too ashamed of this admission of irrationality to give my real
name.
dhex|12.8.05 @ 2:46PM|#
oh, it goes without saying that i'd like to hear the recordings.
i can host them and everything if you like.
unless it's just lame evp stuff cause i have loads of that.
|12.8.05 @ 2:51PM|#
When we first spoke to the ghost, it spoke in a normal, calm
voice. The second recording consisted of "you fucking cunts" in a
very terrifying voice.
You weren't trying to order at a Taco Bell drive thru, were
you?
|12.8.05 @ 2:56PM|#
"I'm too ashamed of this admission of irrationality to give my
real name."
Nothing irrational about that. Who's to say what happened, what you
saw, or what you thought you saw without evidence? There are a lot
of people who report similar experiences.
|12.8.05 @ 3:00PM|#
Personally, I would say that the best description of science
teaching is neither dogmatic nor open, but simply "piss
poor."
Comment by: thoreau at December 8, 2005 02:36 PM
thoreau,
We agree on piss poor. My high school and limited undergrad science
class experience is that accepted theory is taught by presenting
the strength of its arguments, while deficiencies are
ignored.
15 years ago, I took a university intro astronomy course. Was
taught that current theory was that the universe is basically
homogenous. I pointed out the absurdity of that statement and it's
lack of utility. Even homogenized milk is only homogenous when
viewed from a macro-level, but decidedly not homogenous on a micro
level. Everything will appear homogenous if viewed from a viewpoint
sufficiently far away.
My observations and questions were brushed aside.
If scientists can't recognize crap, how can we expect the rest of
us to.
|12.8.05 @ 3:02PM|#
JDM, it's worse since I'm a physicist. We're supposed to be
better than that.
Oops. Does this mean that everybody will think I'm stupid
now?
Oh, well. Everybody already knows I'm a theist, and therefore a
threat to liberty.
|12.8.05 @ 3:11PM|#
My deceased wife spoke to me often immediately following her death (even told me where to find things, some of which I didn't know existed.) I couldn't see her, just heard her and felt her presence. Unfortunately, she didn't sexually molest me. I guess I could take that as further proof that it was her, but it gives me no good story to tell here.
VM|12.8.05 @ 3:12PM|#
"nd it's lack of utility"
what kind of utility were you looking for there?
Ashamed: to answer the question, direct it to the first part of the
third line. that's why we do :)
*chuckle*
(at least you're not writing in ALL CAPS like a well-SOCIALIZED
intellectual) heh
|12.8.05 @ 3:14PM|#
Don't be ashamed, ashamed. I've had an experience for which there's just no good explanation. In broad daylight, I set off for a walk in unfamiliar woods, got lost, and emerged at what turned out to be a location across an 8-lane tollway from where I started. If you held my toes to the fire, I guess I'd be forced to conclude it was a lengthy hallucination or something. But it wasn't. I think the trouble comes when we decide that the weird shit is meaningful, and the big trouble comes when we decide to impose that meaning on others. So, I'll refrain from putting stickers in physics textbooks that read, "The notion that one can't teleport is a theory, not a fact, and should be approached with an open mind" and hold my head high...
|12.8.05 @ 3:24PM|#
"Call Randi! If you don't need the million yourself, donate it
to a charity you deem worthy."
Like the Old H&R posters home!
|12.8.05 @ 3:26PM|#
1) Is it a coincidence that the poster Lemur chose a name, now
applied to any of various prosimian primates, that is derived from
the Latin word for "ghost"? (Lemures.)
2)my atheist group meeting in Sinincincinnati...
I am somehow bemused by the concept of an organized
irreligion.
3)When we first spoke to the ghost, it spoke in a normal, calm
voice. The second recording consisted of "you fucking cunts" in a
very terrifying voice.
"You weren't trying to order at a Taco Bell drive thru, were
you?"
LOL, Scape -- you ensured that this thread was worth reading.
|12.8.05 @ 3:28PM|#
VM,
Without out precicely defining at what scale the universe is
homogenous and the significance of that homogeneity and why that
particular scale should supercede the others, the statement has no
value, that is "utility."
|12.8.05 @ 3:32PM|#
We agree on piss poor. My high school and limited undergrad
science class experience is that accepted theory is taught by
presenting the strength of its arguments, while deficiencies are
ignored.
15 years ago, I took a university intro astronomy course. Was
taught that current theory was that the universe is basically
homogenous. I pointed out the absurdity of that statement and it's
lack of utility. Even homogenized milk is only homogenous when
viewed from a macro-level, but decidedly not homogenous on a micro
level. Everything will appear homogenous if viewed from a viewpoint
sufficiently far away.
Physicists are, believe it or not, well aware that nothing is
homogeneous when viewed on a sufficiently short length scale. Now,
I'll give my take on what was probably going on in that class, but
I should preface it by saying that in the past 15 years a lot of
things have changed in cosmology, including the discovery of
certain inhomogeneities in things like the cosmic background
radiation. So, what I'm saying should not be taken as authoritative
commentary on cosmology, but rather an educated guess as to the
point your professor was trying to make:
He was probably saying that the universe is homogeneous on length
scales comparable to its size (space may be infinite, but if the
amount of mass is finite and largely contained in a finite region
then we can still attribute a finite size to the universe): No
large-scale structures spanning its length, which would constrain
the mechanisms at work in the past 10-15 billion years or so. He
was saying that, based on the observations available at the time,
the galaxies appeared to be randomly distributed.
Unfortunately, he probably failed to explain what he meant by
homogeneous. The concept is perfectly valid because it is useful if
properly applied. He probably failed to communicate that point
effectively. If he brushed you off it was not because you were
challenging orthodoxy, but because he felt that you were being
nitpicky.
If that's the situation, then he was a bad teacher. If he thought
you were being nitpicky that should have been a clue that there was
a misunderstanding, and that you were harping on a point because
you didn't get the point that he was trying to communicate. He
should have tried to remedy the understanding.
Bad teaching is very different from stifling dissent.
VM|12.8.05 @ 3:41PM|#
"VM,
Without out precicely defining at what scale the universe is
homogenous and the significance of that homogeneity and why that
particular scale should supercede the others, the statement has no
value, that is "utility.""
and the patronizing tone is free, i take it?
|12.8.05 @ 3:47PM|#
Shorter version of what I was trying to say: The professor probably understood cosmology quite well, but was rather poor at explaining certain abstractions to undergraduates. He's perfectly capable of recognizing crappy theories, but he's probably awful at recognizing his own crappy teaching.
VM|12.8.05 @ 3:53PM|#
utility: usefulness
utility (intro econ) - satisfaction ("utils" as fictious way of
indicating level, not intensity, of satisfaction...
neither is "value".
the statement was useless, in other words.
Dan|12.8.05 @ 3:53PM|#
I don't know if this counts as "repression" but there have been pleny of times where I was reminded of something that I had previously forgotten about. How do I know those memories are true?
|12.8.05 @ 3:58PM|#
VM,
Patronizing tone is most certainly not intentional. Perhaps, it is
an unintended
by-product of me trying for more precision in my thinking and
discourse than is my norm.
I apologize for it. Rest assured my usual contrairian, smart assed,
irreverent, libertarian persona will present itself soon.
Actually it already has, in my "ghost story" above.
VM the appreciative|12.8.05 @ 4:02PM|#
well done. thank you!!!!!
i can assure you that i'm a bit jumpier than usual this week. and
my horns have been molting (huh?). so i'd like to thank you for the
candor and try to wring out pissiness in my writings today. as
thoreau can attest - he tried changing my coding to help, but to no
avail. the *.ado file just wasn't working :)
thanks!
and i just read the ghost story. i'm very sorry for your
loss.
and what about "hollow man"?
cheers!
|12.8.05 @ 4:04PM|#
VM,
In my mind, the value of a theory is in its usefulness or utility.
And my pea-brain couldn't get a handle on the utility of the
statement. That is to say, it didn't help me understand the
universe any better than I did before.
VM|12.8.05 @ 4:11PM|#
well, i certainly understand trying to grasp pretty anything in
the universe is tough. :)
at least when looking at predictable things it's um "easier" ("the
heavens changed in predictable ways") - planets etc moving. how the
sun moves around the earth, earth being the center (i keed i
keed).
and crappy teachers sure fuck up really cool subjects.
cheers!
|12.8.05 @ 5:34PM|#
It's a good thing that it's becoming increasingly difficult to
get anything posted on H&R, or I'd never get any work done.
Let's try again:
NoStar -- I appreciate your story and also am sorry for your
loss.
You may be interested to know that libertarian SF writer and
friend-of-Heinlein J. Neil Schulman says he (a former atheist)
arrived at his own idiosyncratic belief in some kind of God (he
calls it "Neilism") because of some similar experiences he had. He
says he has heard in his head his own voice telling him "things I
couldn't possibly have known that later turned out to be
true."
Rather long piece here. Would be
easier to read if the column were narrower and the margins wider.
And a pretty decent poem at the top to read if you're ever really
depressed.
Of course, you can always choose to conclude that he's grandly
self-delusional. He comes up with some interesting analogies,
though. I don't agree with his skeptism about the limits of
evolution, although you might.
PS: Libertarian SF writer J. Neil Schulman is not to be confused
with libertarian SF writer L. Neil Smith, although of course the
two constantly are.
|12.8.05 @ 7:54PM|#
While drinking Jack Daniels and having a lively discussion with
friends about the existance of God, my wife told my friends, "Stop.
You can't out debate the SOB on this. Don't worry, I'll show him
there's a God." We found a new topic. Later, when alone, I asked if
you can't out debate me, how can you show me there's a God? She
said nothing but gave me a cheshire cat smile.
Three months later she had a brain aneurysm, had surgery but never
woke up. She died three months after that. She came to me when I
couldn't pick out an outfit for her to be buried in. She told me
what to choose including where to find a piece of jewelry I didn't
know existed. She was with me often during the next few days until
her funeral service. (I am leaving other similar events out in the
interest of brevity.)
During her memorial service, she came to me for the last time and
asked, "Would you deny it's me talking to you."
I thought about how grief can make a mind do weird things, but too
many coincidences had happened and I answered, "I will not deny
that it's you."
She said, "There's someone I want you to meet." I felt her move
away as if to introduce me to someone. I then felt the Ruach
HaKodesh (Holy Spirit) envelope me. I have never known such comfort
and peace.
To this day, prayer will bring that feeling of comfort and peace
back to me plus it cures my migraines and depression within
minutes.
I know this is just anecdotal and is not scientific proof that can
be used to logically convince anyone else. It's real enough for me
and I thank God for all He has saved me in medication.
I know, I know. I've destroyed what little credibility I had in
this stronghold of atheism.
I'll close by saying God bless you all and have a Merry
Christmas.
VM|12.8.05 @ 8:00PM|#
*swallows heavily*
Merry Christmas, NoStar.
"It's real enough for me and I thank God " - and that's what it
should be. That is the beauty and power of it.
Deepest sympathies for your loss.
+++++++
|12.8.05 @ 8:01PM|#
NoStar, you'll get no criticism from this theist. You have my
deepest condolences.
What language does "Ruach HaKodesh" come from?
|12.8.05 @ 8:16PM|#
VM-
Literally? No. I almost never cry.
But inside? Hell yeah. That's one touching story.
|12.8.05 @ 8:23PM|#
Gang, I'm usually alone on this board at this late time (15
after going home time for me.)
The condolences are not necessary, my loss and ultimate gain
occured almost 10 years ago, but still, thank you, all.
Thoreau,
Ruach HaKodesh is the Hebrew name for the Holy Spirit. Literally
means "Wind or breath, The Holy".
Many things that made no sense to me became clear once I began a
study of early Hebraic culture. This affects my prefered
terminology. I think that Christianity cannot make sense if it is
divorced from it's Hebraic roots. A name like Jesus which has been
transliterated thru Greek, German, then English has no meaning for
me. I prefer Yeshua which I learned means Salvation from Ya. Ya, of
course, is an abbreviated name from YHVH (Yod Hey Vaw Hey)
Thanks for askin. ;~D
|12.8.05 @ 10:49PM|#
NoStar,
You have my condolences as well, but sorry, I ain't buying your
story. *shrug*
|12.9.05 @ 2:28AM|#
I... Merry Christmas, NoStar.
Your story made me think of something, plus maybe I'be been looking
for an excuse to share it with somebody for a while.
The music that plays (warning: automatically) when this
page opens is the saddest, most beautiful piece of music I've
heard in a long time, and I've fallen in love with it. It's
"Filby's Theme," AKA "London 1900," from the original soundtrack of
the 1960 SF movie The Time Machine, of all the danged
things. Your story made me feel the same way I do when I listen to
this.
|12.9.05 @ 11:45AM|#
Hakluyt,
I ain't sellin' nothin'.
Stevo,
That would have been a good soundtrack for that time in my life. It
was filled with the most grief and sorrow, and also the most joy
and beauty. Bittersweet. Thanks for letting me hear that.
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