Another Food-Related Market Failure May Finally Be Fixed

Tim Cavanaugh | November 19, 2005

Since your comments proved pivotal in my finally getting to try the Take 5 candy bar (which I now see sold almost everywhere), I thought I'd share an even more epochal development in foodstuffs: the arrival of actual pizza in one of America's most pizza-deranged cities, and the possible dethronement of the Chicago-style deep-dish pie that has marred the last several decades of American history.

As every East Coast native learns upon arrival in the San Francisco Bay Area, Northern California is a virtual dead zone for real pizza of the thin-crust, few-to-no-toppings, crisp style we know from New York. Partly this is just the warped food dynamics of a city where sourdough bread is the leading culinary export. There's also been an element of NoCal kookiness at work, with pineapples, broccoli and other foreign objects making their dismal march onto the top of a thick doughy crust. Northern California pizza was most aptly described, surprisingly, in the otherwise ill-conceived Thomas Pynchon novel Vineland. The book describes the "Bodhi Dharma Pizza Temple," which offers

a classic example of the California pizza concept at its most misguided...Its sauce was all but crunchy with fistfuls of herbs only marginally Italian and more appropriate in a cough remedy, the rennetless cheese reminded customers variously of bottled hollandaise or joint compound, and the options were all vegetables rigorously organic, whose high water content saturated, long before it baked through, a stone-ground twelve-grain crust with the lightness and digestibility of a manhole cover.

However, I don't blame this entirely on the wackiness of local tastes. The Pizza Hut-driven anschluss of thick, hungry-man, and even "deep dish" pizza has been a national trend. (And even an international trend: I tremble for my country when I reflect that most foreigners know Pizza Hut as "American style" pizza.) How did it happen that Chicago, in all other things the second (and now probably third) city to New York, managed to inflict its inferior pizza philosophy on a free nation?

Soon after migrating to the city of St. Francis in 1996, I happened on Victor's Pizza on Polk Street, which, though it could stand to be a little more consistent, is at least a consistently thin, crisp, New York-style pizza. I quickly came to rely on Victor's for all my pizza needs, and have continued to do so for nearly a decade. Then, a few months ago, I took my kids to a party where the pizza was provided by Blue Moon Pizza at Scott and Chestnut streets. Again, these were thin, pastry-like slices: the best pizza I've had in San Francisco. And just a few weeks ago, I got wind of a free-pizza giveaway at North Beach Pizza at Grant and Union; cheapskate that I am, I swallowed my suspicions, waited in line for a pie, and found that, though it was a pesto, it was at least made to real-pizza specs.

So that's three real pizza places in the Bay Area (or more, since North Beach Pizza is a local chain). Two of the three—Victor's and North Beach—have been around for decades, and I owe my ignorance of the latter to lack of initiative: After a few tragedies with places like Cybelle's and Pizza Orgasmica (you just can't go right with a name that cute), I stuck resolutely with Victor's. Nor do I vouch for places I've only been to once. (I remain suspicious of North Beach Pizza, though I intend to go back.) But Blue Moon opened just a few years ago, and boldly advertises itself to the sourdough-and-heirloom-tomato-eating locals as "New York-style pizza."

So I'm encouraged. A few more successes like this and the truth that pizza is a thin, fused pastry that can only be ruined by toppings may begin to penetrate this bastion of thick-crust darkness. Could this be a leading or lagging indicator of a national trend? Could every American soon come to see real pizza as his or her birthright? If so, it wouldn't exactly be the fastest correction in the history of efficient markets, but it sure would be a positive step.

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|11.19.05 @ 12:03PM|#

Why does Tim Cavanaugh hate Chicago?

But seriously - I've had pizza of almost every conceivable type (liking most, I confess), and the true Chicago deep-dish is a thing of beauty.

|11.19.05 @ 12:17PM|#

Never mind Chicago, peachy; how can Tim Cavanaugh hate sourdough?

|11.19.05 @ 12:18PM|#

"New-York style pizza"

Er, don't you mean "Italian-style pizza" or even "Napolitan-style pizza"?

|11.19.05 @ 12:24PM|#

Jennifer wrote: "how can Tim Cavanaugh hate sourdough?"

Pretty easily, it's disgusting.

|11.19.05 @ 12:25PM|#

Well, the man is obviously a culinary philistine - we should be kind to him, and hope our solicitous sympathy helps broaden his palate. Or something.

(Fair warning on the real deep-dish, though - get your cholesterol checked first.)

|11.19.05 @ 12:26PM|#

Glad that Cavanaugh found something he likes, but authentic NY style pizza is not bad, but not particularly good either. Not enough cheese, sauce, or crust, rather insubstantial. On the other hand, Chicago style pie, actually lives up to the word "pie", and maybe goes too far in the other direction.

For me, Bocce's on Bailey in Buffalo was the platonic ideal of pizza. Other cities pies are but pale shadows.

James Anderson Merritt|11.19.05 @ 12:34PM|#

I've been to NY, had NY-style pizza. Been to Chicago, had Chicago-style pizza. I was even in New Zealand, where the "American-style" "Hawaiian" pizza they served at a local Pizza Hut bore no resemblance to the same menu item served at the Pizza Hut in Capitola CA. I've had all kinds of pizza, thin crust, thick crust, stuffed crust, no toppings, two toppings, all toppings.

I don't know why, but I keep coming back to Round Table's Combo on a thin crust. This was by far the first pizza I ever liked, but since I discovered it a few decades ago, it has consistently been my favorite. What can I say?

|11.19.05 @ 12:36PM|#

Went to Uno and Duo in Chicago while in the Midwest for school. I was the only one who thought that pizza casserole, 3-inch deep, 3-solid-tomatoes stuff was nasty. Never been to NY, but give me NY style pizza any day.
For any one else in the SF area, come to South Bay and hit Jake's Pizza. There's a few them down here, and it's not really NY stye, it's not Chicago style--it's just amazing.

|11.19.05 @ 12:46PM|#

I feel differently than Tim.

IMHO, the tri-state area, encompassing NY, NJ, and Connecticut, is full of crappy pizza. Most of the pizza places kind of suck. "New York style" is really Neapolitan, and the main place that is it NOT served is in New York. NJ is equally bereft. Connecticut seems to have the tradition, though - I've had great pies there, near both New Haven and Hartford.

To my eye, most of the parlors I walk into in NY or NJ are staffed by jerks who couldn't give a crap about the quality of their offerings. Then again, it's been a few years since I lived there, so maybe it's improved.

San Francisco has decent pizza, relatively. Tim's right about Victor's. North Beach Pizza is OK. Escape From New York on the Haight is inconsistent but good at times. (On the other hand, it's neighbor Phat Slice might as well serve their pizza on french bread, for all the doughiness of their crust.) There's a great Neapolitan place around the corner from me called (quixotically) Villa Romana.

A little self-promotion: I make good Neapolitan-style pizza often. Each year at Burning Man, I make it in the Blue Light District; ask anyone about Pizza Larry. Now I make it at home, and it's good. I'll send out an invite to my next bash.

|11.19.05 @ 1:05PM|#

I've had pizza in Italy, and that was eye opening. The first one I had was a crust, doused in olive oil with some huge basil(?) leaves and a few strips of bacon lying across it. WTF? It had no tomato sauce. There might have been some shredded cheese, I'm not sure.

|11.19.05 @ 1:28PM|#

This is a bizarre piece. Pizza Hut pizza, even their "pan" pizza, bears no resemblance to classic Chicago-style pizza from Giordano's or Pizzeria Uno.

For that matter, NYC pizza didn't impress me much when I lived there (Dinkins-era) -- too greasy and rubbery. Maybe I didn't find the right spots.

Viking Moose|11.19.05 @ 1:45PM|#

whoever calls a pizza a "pie" deserves that thin east coast shit.

and our beloved chicago pizza is, in reality, bread based lasagna :)

|11.19.05 @ 1:54PM|#

Chicago's pizza is the best I've ever had. I lived there during law school but have no allegience to the city (I'm a Floridian, dang it), so this is pure, unbiased pizza appreciation.

I view pizza much as I do barbecue. I can enjoy the bad stuff without losing my appreciation for the sublime form. Pizza Hut is to Gino's East as Arby's is to that barbecue shack outside of Pulaski, Tennessee.

Now I'm getting hungry.

fyodor|11.19.05 @ 2:06PM|#

Re NY-style pizza: why not just have toast?

Ha-ha. Have no strong opinions either way, but I couldn't resist that line.

|11.19.05 @ 2:07PM|#

the possible dethronement of the Chicago-style deep-dish pie that has marred the last several decades of American history.

Praise the Lord. Unfortunately, though, I don't think this "dethronement" is a nationwide phenomenon, as evidenced by a five-year chart of Papa John's stock price.

If any of you ever take a trip to Ocean City, NJ, I'd strongly recommend getting a slice or three at Mack N' Manco's. Definitely one of the best parlors I've been to for thin-crust, no-frills fare.

|11.19.05 @ 2:08PM|#

Virgin crust with sausage and peperoni is the second coming of jesus.

|11.19.05 @ 2:09PM|#

Pizza Hut had a proper deep-dish pizza for a while - at least in Chicago. It wasn't Giordano's, but it was actually pretty decent.

Perhaps the best thin-crust style I've ever had was at the Meridien hotel in Colombo, Sri Lanka - man, they knew how to make pizza there. The worst was in Denmark, I think, though the Jolly Cola chaser did not help. Oh dear God... Coke has to be one of America's chief contributions to the world (and really, you can't have pizza without Coke.)

Viking Moose|11.19.05 @ 2:14PM|#

jolly is definitely nasty stuff.

there is actually a good pizza place between the copenhagen univ. admin annex and st peter's church - you get sambal olek to put on it. mmmmm.

you shoulda just grabbed a gr�n to go with it.

when were you there?

|11.19.05 @ 2:25PM|#

It must have been fifteen years ago or thereabouts - I was just a little pup.

As bad as Jolly is, there's local stuff in Malta that's worse... I wasn't foolish enough to try anything those colours, but my father wasn't so prudent. And this was in a Macdonald's too. (A curious fact which the anti-globalisation types frequently ignore is the lack of standardisation in the big American chains overseas; I suspect many of them have never actually been out into the world to see what MacDo has wrought.)

|11.19.05 @ 2:44PM|#

I like all kinds and look forward to Chicago pizza on the rare occasions I visit there.

My favorite is probably the thin crust from the Shakey's regional pizza chain. I've always liked their chorizo topping pizza, something probably not found in other parts of the country.

The worst concievable pizza around is Imo's in the St. Louis area. ISTR it was touted as "St. Louis- style", something for which they should be deeply ashamed. Funny thing is that while locals love it, anyone who comes from anywhere else thinks it's not only bad, but the worst excuse for pizza concievable.

|11.19.05 @ 2:48PM|#

I've been in New York for over two years and I still haven't had better pizza than I had at DaVinci's in Birmingham, Alabama. They had a tasty, not too thin crust with a little cornmeal to keep it from sticking to the pizza peel, and a thick, flavorful marinara sauce that could squirt out and scald you through a generous layer of quality mozzarella cheese that was drizzled with a little bit of olive oil. Also, I could keep a pistol tucked under my shirt when I ate there, which I can't do in NYC.

John's is OK for delivery; apizz on Eldridge street in lower Manhattan seems to make a decent rectangular pie.

|11.19.05 @ 3:08PM|#

Tim:

Try Haystack Pizza on 24th Street in Noe Valley (near Church). They make a great New York style pizza. That's the best pizza I've had in the City.

Just come on up to Seattle and have a vegan pizza, no cheese, on sprouted wheat dough and you will forget about those NY heart burners in a second! It will change your philosophy and blow through the body in less than 24 hours.

|11.19.05 @ 3:22PM|#

Have to agree with Tim about Chicago-style pizza, which sucks. But as others have pointed out, Neapolitan is the true winner. And as he himself pointed out, the good places have always been there; he just didn't find them yet. I'll cast a vote for Haystack as well. Nice family joint, too.

|11.19.05 @ 3:24PM|#

All this talk of pizza and abominations makes me realize- why does Southeast Michigan hate America? Domino's and Little Caeser's. They've taken bucket loads of America's money, and in return, gave us crappy pizza, a wacko vanity university, and lousy baseball teams.

|11.19.05 @ 3:48PM|#

James Anderson Merritt-I'm inclined to agree, Round Table has the best chain pizza out there, and it even manages to be superior to many if not most of the small pizza places I've been to.

Maybe they put cocaine in the dough or something.

|11.19.05 @ 4:00PM|#

Good posting, Tim. It's amazing how much better your writing is when you know what you're talking about.

As a long-time NYer, I do feel for those who have visited and only had bad pizza experiences; there are loads of mediocre pizza joints spread around the city. IMO, the biggest problem is that they have inferior (read: cheap) ovens. You have to cook a thin-slice quickly at very high temperatures to give it that crispy bottom without burning the cheese on top.

OTOH, NY-style (Neopolitan) is definitely the best, at least for every day eating. I like the authentic Chicago pies once in a while, but it's too much to eat all the time. Proper NY-style can be eaten every day and never get old.

Anyone want to debate best pizza joints? I go for Lombardi's for the old-school stuff, but I do like Two Boots a lot too.

|11.19.05 @ 4:01PM|#

With all the NYC transplants in the Bay Area, I'm surprised it's taken this long for thee to be as few as three decent NY stype pizza joints in SF. Even Seattle had a several fairly authentic "Big Apple" pizza parlors when I moved here 21 years ago, and that was when the ONLY good thing to be said about Northwest Cuisine was the "freshness" of its ingredients.

I have nothing against Chicago in general, but the concept of "deep dish" pizza seems to be solely about filling up your big fat gut as fast as humanly possible. It's Italian lumberjack food, basically.

My worst pizza experience was 13 years ago in Sweden (suprise!). My hosts insisted I try what they considered the best "pizza" in Stockholm: a shapeless, paper-thin, dark brown crepe covered in bland curry sauce and sliced bananas. They all moaned with pleasure while devouring this culinary monstrosity.

|11.19.05 @ 4:23PM|#

I'll have you know I possess a slim, girlish figure with a perfectly shapely gut; but I will agree with those who say deep-dish is not an everyday food (you'd last about six months before the massive coronary, I think - perhaps less if you're an Italian lumberjack with a big fat gut already. But what a way to go...)

|11.19.05 @ 4:29PM|#

I third the lurve for Round Table. I think it's the tangy sauce, and maybe the cheddar and provolone as well. Plus I love the big dough bubbles. But: is it me or are they 'spensive compared to Papa Domino's Hut? I thought about ordering from them the other night, but $15 for one 14" specialty (WITH coupon)? Yikes. Can't afford that and a tip too -- maybe I'll get a carry-out sometime.

John's in NY is TOO burnt. [ducking] I like Two Boots sicilian.

Ohhhh, and Lamonica's in LA! Nearly forgot about them. Best NY pizza I've ever had, even over actual NY pizza.

Fall all over Papa John's Spinach Alfredo if it wanders 'round to your area, even if you don't like spinach. Dr-ool, drool.

|11.19.05 @ 4:38PM|#

"how can Tim Cavanaugh hate sourdough?" Pretty easily, it's disgusting.

Philistines, every last damned one of you.

|11.19.05 @ 4:51PM|#

vegan... no cheese... on sprouted wheat dough...

I don't know what that is, but it ain't pizza. :-)

There IS a lot of iffy pizza in Manhattan - the best is in Queens. As for chains, Sbarro's and Two Boots are pretty good; I even like Pizza Hut. I won't touch anything that advertises itself as "Chicago style", as I know all about that crap from growing up in Western NY - home of truly awful pizza. You know your local pizza is bad when the best one is Dominos.

Screw you, hippies!

Pequod's Pizza on Clybourn Ave. in Chicago has the best pizza about. VM knows of which I speak, I'm sure. It's not Giordano's style, but deep-dish to be sure, and the sauce is first-rate.

I agree with the poster who took a swipe at "St. Louis-style pizza." Disgusting!

Sourav|11.19.05 @ 5:04PM|#

At least SF has a few places. The East Bay is a deathscape of bad pizza. When anyone mentions Zachary's, I punch him or her in the face.

|11.19.05 @ 5:11PM|#

Victor's pizza is decent, but not my favorite. I do loooooove their cannelone! Have you tried it Tim? Their sauce is truly excellent.

My favorite SF pizza is made in my oven. Trader Joe's has really good pizza dough for 99 cents per pound. Let is rise in a warm place; then toss it till it's thin. (It doesn't take long before you'll be tossing the dough in the air like a pro!) Preheat your gas oven to 600 degrees with a large, rectangular pizza stone near the bottom. Cover the dough with your own homemade sauce and just enough toppings (fewer is better). It's crisp, thin, and delicious. It took a while to get things right, but now I get excellent pizza for about $4 per (and that's with high-quality ingredients). A large pizza peel with a sprinkling of corn meal makes placing the pizza on the stone easy and fun (with a little practice).

Viking Moose|11.19.05 @ 5:17PM|#

StevenCrane:

good call! (many/most people don't know what stuffed pizza is. they think it's pizza hut's "chicago style" or sbarro's, even worse. christ - this is from the "baked ziti culture". they put friggin ketchup on their hotdogs, for christ's sake). just explain to them that it's bread-based lasagna. :)

Peter Bagge:

(i enjoy your work)

i'm sure you also experienced that talking about 1) state-funded health care 2) public transportation 3) hockey 4) general welfare, the swedes would all moan in unison. (danes are even worse. and they even get more obnoxious when they think it's only danes in the room!)

ja ja ja. lite mere. lite mere. n�sten d�r. n�sten. n��ssssstttteeeeennnn......
nej ikke mere. jeg �r tr�tt. ikke mere.

(i'm going to hell, a-ridin' my self-inflatable noam chomsky blow up doll the whole way)

|11.19.05 @ 5:29PM|#

The Real Bill- I've actually had quite a bit of success cooking pizza on my barbeque grill. You just cover a piece of dough that's about the size of a standard slice of pizza with all the requisite ingredients and then put it on the grill on indirect heat for about 6 to 10 minutes, depending on the thickness. It's crisp and delicious and best of all, fast. I used to use it for quieting young'uns when I was babysitting and it was too hot to cook inside. The only caveat is that you can only put one or at most two toppings on, and sausage is out unless it's the precooked kind. But, I only like cheese on my pizza, so that's never proven a problem for me.

Do we have to choose sides? I like em both. Would it calm part of the argument if they weren't both called pizza? Just think of em as different types of foods. Maybe that'll help.

It seems like NY pizza, when done well, really gets the oils right. There are lotsa Chicago and NY style places here in Denver. But I think that the best Chicago style that I've ever had was Geno's in Chi town. I think that Famous Pizza here in Denver is pretty good NY style but I'm not sure it would pass a purist's standards. BTW, Greek immigrants own it. There's a place near the Park Meadows mall where some Chi town transplants do a really fine deep dish but I spaced the name and Google's not helping. Can any Denver folks help?

...real pizza of the thin-crust, few-to-no-toppings...

No toppings? Really? Sounds kinda Spartan to me.

Oh, speaking of pesto. The best pesto pizza ever for me was at Nova Express on Fairfax in LA. It's a very cool Sci-fi Pizza place. Yep, Sci-fi Pizza place. Only in LA, huh? Brian Doherty is hep and even friends with the owner.

Hey Tim, is Blondie's pizza still there on Telegraph Ave. in Berkley? Good people watching along with your pie.

Now I'm Hungary for pizza but I don't think I'll find any at Rock Bottom where the Denver Reasonoid meeting is tonight. That's ok-much better Reasonoids sans pizza than pizza sans Reasonoids for sure.

|11.19.05 @ 5:36PM|#

Peter Bagge:

My hosts insisted I try what they considered the best "pizza" in Stockholm: a shapeless, paper-thin, dark brown crepe covered in bland curry sauce and sliced bananas.

Interesting. Once I had a Swedish chess buddy tell me that the ONLY things cheaper in Sweden than here are chess clocks and pizza.

|11.19.05 @ 5:37PM|#

As a transplanted Lawnislander, I grew up with thin-crust NewYawk style pizza as the ideal. Whenever I would find myself actually within the 5 Boroughs, I'd religiously seek out the most hole-in-the-wall pizzerias for a slice of the real stuff. As for toppings, our family usually bought whole cheese and sauce only pies for dinner, back in the days of meatless Fridays. You can load a pizza up with all sorts of crap, but if the plain cheese slice isn't worth eating by itself, why bother?

In my college days I encountered the Chicago version. When it is done well it is a great meal, but it is really a different dish.

We have a Buca di Beppo in town that makes a nice Pizza Margharita.

Manga!

Kevin

|11.19.05 @ 5:38PM|#

Tim, if you are looking for Italian-style pizza in SF done right, check out A16.

|11.19.05 @ 5:46PM|#

I second the vote for Round Table. The Italian Garlic Supreme is my favorite. Unfortunately, I just moved to Florida from San Jose and, sadly, RT hasn't yet expanded here (along with my other favorite, In-N-Out Burger). And people who don't like sourdough are commie pinko traitors.

|11.19.05 @ 5:49PM|#

For that matter, NYC pizza didn't impress me much when I lived there (Dinkins-era) -- too greasy and rubbery. Maybe I didn't find the right spots.

Rubber because of the low-quality cheese. At least until the '60s you could get good pizza almost anywhere in New York because imported Italian food products were cheap. Today you wouldn't pay for pizza what a good pizza would cost.

|11.19.05 @ 5:51PM|#

Best pizza on the planet?

Pala's "World's Worst Pizza" Wilmington, DE.

Honorable mention: Grotto's, Rehoboth Beach. All you D.C.-area vacationers know what I'm talking about...

raymond|11.19.05 @ 5:53PM|#

The first one I had was a crust, doused in olive oil with some huge basil(?) leaves and a few strips of bacon lying across it

That sounds more like focaccia.

There are some great pizzerias around where I live. With excellent calzone, too. (Well, downtown, anyway.) But the best pizza I've ever had was in Lugano.

FYI: The local Pizza Hut has closed. It'll be replaced by a Starbuck's. Which won't last, either, since we've got the best coffee in the world. The marketplace will kill it, too, off lickity split.

Angry College Kid|11.19.05 @ 6:04PM|#

Chicago pizza shits on New York.

|11.19.05 @ 6:07PM|#

Best pizza I ever tasted was in my hometown. Simple called "That Pizza Place". The crust is of middling thickness, with the best cheese. Toppings right out to the edge. Toppings piled on.

I missed it dearly when I was at grad school in Boston.

|11.19.05 @ 6:09PM|#

Come on with this..

The less stuff on a pizza, the better. Thin crust, not a lot of cheese, a little olive oil and a ladle of sauce.

Two best places:

Mia Cucina in Secaucus, NJ and
Benny Tudino's in Hoboken

Chicago style "pizza" = wonder bread with v8 poured on it

|11.19.05 @ 6:16PM|#

Whoulda thunk pizza would raise such passions?

|11.19.05 @ 6:30PM|#

I think Chicago-style thin crust is superior to both Chicago deep dish and New York thin crust.

|11.19.05 @ 7:21PM|#

Why does noone like the greasy, cheesy, chewy Boston "House-of-Pizza" style pizza? I miss it so much.

NY pizza sucks arse.

I was overjoyed to fin out that we have a NYC transplant in my tiny vermont college town, and he cranks out the thin-crust pizza with a passion. He's this huge Italian guy. One time I went in right when they opened, and he was all pumped because he had been up since 4 am perfecting some new pizza variety.

|11.19.05 @ 7:59PM|#

Years ago I worked on some ads for Round Table Pizza at an animation studio based in Frisco. One of the RTP execs asked me if I tried any of the Round Tables in town yet. When I said no, she said "avoid the one near Fort Mason. It's a shithole"(There's very little top-down quality control with that chain, apparently!). Forgetting those words of warning, I inadvertantly wound up eating at that Fort Mason RTP a few years later, and it was indeed the pits. Garbage everywhere, and the manager refused to serve me coffee, since that would've meant brewing a fresh pot!

As for NYC: Touristy areas in Manhattan do indeed have a lot of bad pizza joints. All those "Famous Rays" with way too much oil and blobby cheese on them. I also noticed that the general quality of both pizza AND bagels drops considerably when you cross over to New Jersey (sorry, Tim). Someone told me it's because of the Garden State's much harder tap water. Who knows?

This thread is a great place for work avoidance.

|11.19.05 @ 8:01PM|#

Papaya got it- A16. Fine wine list, too, and one of the best wine by the glass programs I've ever seen. Nice second place is, cough, cough, a chain: Red Grape.

Best I've had since locating in the SF Bay Area is what comes out of our East Bay ovens; we import Tipo Fino 00 flour, San Marzano tomatoes, and use some great local mozzarella and basil. It's not New York, but it sure as hell is Italy.

The East Bay to Napa axis is the home of the worst overall level of pizza I've had outside of Germany.

|11.19.05 @ 8:05PM|#

In Wine Country, not far from SF, (Napa) they have already branched out to olive oil, to try to avoid having all their comestibles in one vat, so to speak.
Obviously olive oil doesn't go down the ol' pie hole the way wine does, so they need to keep spreading their "bread" upon the waters.
Pizza goes down the ol' pie hole plenty and copiously fast.
My only concern is that they don't talk it to death, as they do the mind-boggling array of wines.

|11.19.05 @ 8:09PM|#

East Bay pizza is sparse, but LaneSplitters on Telegraph on 48th is good, the one on San Pablo better.

SF Pizza -- there is a hole in the wall in the lower haight between filmore and stiener that is quite good, but not as good as the sausuage place a couple doors down. North Beach pizza varies a lot from place to place, the one actually in North Beach is great, so is the one in the upper Haight on Stanyon down the street from the Kezar pub, but the others are lacking...

San Diego -- Sardina's and Nicolosi's are the best, both Silician in origin. wow I can't spell...

Deep dish sucks. Any sny pizza joint worth going to have to be able to provide anchovies and artichoke hearts as toppings to get my coin...

|11.19.05 @ 8:22PM|#

Great post. Nothing says "libertarian blog" like a whiny food rant in which the author mistakes his own personal tastes for objective fact over seven interminable paragraphs.

|11.19.05 @ 8:28PM|#

Count me among the Chicago partisans, at least where restaraunt dining is concerned. If I wanted a stained cracker I'd dip a saltine at home. Then again, I am a lumberjack.

|11.19.05 @ 8:44PM|#

Great post. Nothing says "libertarian blog" like a whiny food rant in which the author mistakes his own personal tastes for objective fact over seven interminable paragraphs.

Why you magnificent, deep-dish loving bastard!

|11.19.05 @ 8:49PM|#

I had a pizza at a place in Naples back in the '70s that was nothing like any pizza I've ever seen here. No sauce, just whole ingredients like tomatoes & some kind of ham with cheese & spices. Since it was in Naples I assume that was Neopolitan pizza, but it wasn't much like the stuff they call Neopolitan here.

Every New Yorker I met in the Navy would tell you "New York pizza is the best pizza in the world." Yeah, whatever -- it's good but I've had deep dish pizzas that I got more enjoyment out of.

I hate food supremacists, they're more annoying even than sports fans.

|11.19.05 @ 8:57PM|#

Let the man be, Jarod. Even the best of us might succumb to an occasional MySpace Moment. I'm sure he'll take up whip and chair against the Statist Menace tomorrow.

When he starts debating shampoo brands is when we'll need to worry.

|11.19.05 @ 9:19PM|#

you are in frisco man...shouldn't you be eating mission style fish burritos or something?

and shut up or conservatives might figure out alito is a libertarian.

Yes, there's nothing we Chicagoans love better than to hear someone who lives in California or New York City sneer at us mere provincials who live in Chicago. And people from those areas sometimes wonder why Chicagoans despise New York City (which annexed Brooklyn to avoid-horrors!-having less population than Chicago) and pretty much the whole state of California (a bloated leech of a state, living on largesse sucked from the rest of the country, to say nothing of the pharoanic scale water projects that keep Californians happy-at least, until the next time the San Andreas fault moves its fingers through the ground and sends Los Angeles or San Francisco into ruin-something those of us in the "second or third in all things" city don't have to worry about).

California Songs - Local H

Genre/Lang. : Rock/Metal

Well I got your late night call
Your in the center of it all
Your havin' a ball
And your really doin' fine
A west coast time
And I believe you

But here's one for the coast
The people with the most
The pretty, pretty folks
The west coast folks
Yeah here's one for the coast
The people with the most
The pretty, pretty folks
The west coast folks

And here we go again
I hope it never ends
We're all so sick of California songs
Yeah we know you love L.A.
There's nothin' left to say
Please no more California songs
and fuck New York too

Yeah your heavens not a lie
Just more shit that you want to buy
Well they're headin' for the coast
They're movin' out in droves
Sendin' back reports on the radio
The message is the same
It's gettin' pretty lame
California dreamin's on the radio

And here we go again
I hope it never ends
We're all so sick of California songs
Yeah we know you love L.A.
There's nothin' left to say
Please no more California songs

And here we go again
I hope it never ends
We're all so sick of California songs
Yeah we know you love L.A.
But there's nothin' left to say
Please no more California songs
and fuck New York too
Alright (x's 9)

Here's one for the coast
YEAH
And here we go again
It's never gonna end
We're all so sick of California songs
Yeah we know you love L.A.
There's nothing left to say
Please no more California songs
And here we go again
I hope it never ends
We're all so sick of California songs
Yeah we know you love L.A.
There's nothin' left to say
Please no more California songs
and fuck New York too

|11.19.05 @ 9:21PM|#

I didn't know the meaning of pizza until I got to college and dialed ALLEGRO.
The source of said pizza had plenty dim booths with old chiati bottles as candleabras.

I was raised on sweet taters and gravy.
And pinto beans.
"Beans and taters"

A few nibbles o' pizza made me the anarchist I still are.

|11.19.05 @ 9:29PM|#

How did it happen that Chicago, in all other things the second (and now probably third) city to New York, managed to inflict its inferior pizza philosophy on a free nation?

Four words: The Market Has Spoken.

How can you accept (and promote) the premise that popular culture has gotten better because of the plethora of choice seen in our society, and simultaneously deride the choice of the market which has clearly been stated as regards pizza?

San Francisco aside, I don't think I've been to a single city in the U.S. that didn't have a competent thin-crust pizzeria. Trends in taste change; maybe the heyday of the Chicago-stye pie is over. Even if not, it's no good reason to suggest an inadequacy in enhanced public choice when the choice is counter to your own taste.

|11.19.05 @ 9:33PM|#

ok these are my pseudo-qualifications: I've lived in Chicago all my life and I'm 100% purebred guido. That said:

Chicago pizza is waaaaaay overrated. I don't mind a peice every now and then (Gino's East is the best), but fuckin'a why all the damn cheese?!?!?! Cheese is the most abused and misused pizza ingredient, especially mozz (i will not spell out the whole word, too long). Most thin-crust or 'regular' pizza is nothing but oily salt-goo cardboard bread. The good shit is a real, old-school tomato pie. Medium thickness crust, crispy on the outside (thin coat of olive oil before cooking does the trick for those who make their own), thick sauce with strong tomato, chunks encouraged, and a thin spread out accent of cheese, toppings optional.

for those lost in upstate New York, stop by Utica and look for Tony's. You'll be happy you did.

Tonys Original Italian Bakery & Deli
412 Culver Ave
Utica, NY 13501

their bread is dynamite too and you can buy fresh pizza shells if you want to make your own.

|11.19.05 @ 9:40PM|#

Gioia in Berkeley is great thin stuff. Arinell's is also good, but they use canned mushrooms, and the Sicilian is, like all Sicilian slices, a school cafeteria monstrosity.

I don't understand the Zachary's hate though. Remember the Jackinthebox commercial where Jack holds his head and says, "but if we did that, you'd just be eating MEAT and CHEESE!", and the cheeseburger focus group just looks at him and says, "well, YEAH."

Zachary's is good for stuffing oneself and then rolling out the door, whereas the thin stuff is good for grabbing something while you're on an errand, then coming back to work and having your boss tell you, "No, Tony, the future fucks you!"

|11.19.05 @ 9:44PM|#

Listen up all you thick crust lovin' libertarians. ...The market failed; the thick pie sucks. It's gonna be a thin pie LP from here on out; if you don't like it, go find another party.

Now if Tim 'll just delete all the pro-thick crust comments, we can continue...

...So, what do the rest of you think about how thick crust sucks?

|11.19.05 @ 9:55PM|#

I realize that Sacramento is a city worth mentioning usually only to mock our state government, but we have a local NY-style chain called Giovanni's that's divine. It also gets bonus points for being the best cold pizza I've ever had.

|11.19.05 @ 9:58PM|#

What I think is that it's right dangerous to rile a lumberjack, Ken. Especially when you insult his choice of pie.

Down with the New York imperialists! Down with cheese-drizzled, red-tinted soda crackers! The streets will flow with the sauce of the unbelievers!

|11.19.05 @ 10:07PM|#

Now you're talkin' Jeff!

Thick crust if freakin' un-American! ...I just don't see how someone can both like thick crust and be a libertarian. There oughta be a party plank, I tell ya!

|11.19.05 @ 10:17PM|#

There is no such thing as a "market failure." The concept itself is a self-contradiction.

|11.19.05 @ 10:31PM|#

There is no such thing as a "market failure." The concept itself is a self-contradiction.

I'm pretty sure Cavanaugh was makin' a statement about the kind of pizza he likes. Like when I call someone an argument against evolution--I don't really mean he's an argument against evolution. ...besides, if you want to go literal, what Cavanaugh described is a market correction.

It's a Saturday Fun Link party people. For Christ's sake! I hope y'all have a beer with whatever you're eatin' tonight.

|11.19.05 @ 10:40PM|#

Jack-

Jennifer wrote: "how can Tim Cavanaugh hate sourdough?"

Pretty easily, it's disgusting.

Go bow before your shrine to Karl Marx you pinko! :-)

|11.19.05 @ 11:13PM|#

When my brother-in-law lived in San Francisco he walked out of a pizza place one night with a couple leftover slices in a box. He came across a homless guy and offered him the grub. Homeless guy gets a look at the pineapple-topped California crap, waves him off and says, "I only eat East Coast pizza."

|11.20.05 @ 1:01AM|#

Peter Bagge,

It's not bad enough that you're a cartoonist who can't draw, now it looks like you've got shit for brains, to boot!

What the fuck is wrong with you, talking this mess that "NJ pizza and bagels are no good?" You think we couldn't make you disappear? You think tragic, freakish accidents couldn't happen to your family members or pets?

The loveliest dough products of every variety--pizza, bagels, garlic knots, you name it--are to be found in the Garden State. The secret is the freshness of the ingredients and the tender care which our state's grandmothers add to their masterly recipes.

Seriously, this stuff is so good just talking about it brings a tear to my eye. Bagge, are you up to date on your life insurance? It's very important to take care of those left behind.

|11.20.05 @ 1:10AM|#

based on the response to this post its obvious the direction nick should take reason -- rachel ray -- hallow, cheap content that is sexy in only a way truckers could appreciate. ohh Nick's done that already....my bad

|11.20.05 @ 1:16AM|#

What people don't understand about Chicago Pizza is that if you actually live inside the city somewhere, thin crust is ordered from local Pizza Parlors more often than the Deep Dish stuff.

What they also don't understand is how different the stuff is from New York thin crust. New York thin crust has a very sweet taste, whereas Chicago thin crust is much heavier on the cheese and has a more salty/spicy flavor to it. Also, and i'm not sure if this makes a taste difference, but it's cut into little squares instead of slices.

The last paragraph of this wiki is pretty accurate, though onions and peppers are not necessarily used (Italian Sausage is the No. 1 topping):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago-style_pizza

Sourav|11.20.05 @ 3:00AM|#

CTD,

Arinell's is acceptable. Zachary's sauce and other flavors are all wrong.

Fat Slice makes good drunk-munchies fare.

Hakluyt|11.20.05 @ 3:04AM|#

Oeconomist,

I'd have to agree with you.

MP|11.20.05 @ 6:51AM|#

Here's a fourth vote for Two Boots pizza in NY. My all time favorite. The best part is they have a location in Grand Central. Call before leaving the office, pick it up on the way home, be the envy of everyone on the train, and fulfill your wife's fantasy of inviting in the pizza boy for the night. ;)

Madog|11.20.05 @ 9:07AM|#

Here in New Haven we're proud of having the New Haven style pizza, which is the world's best. It's just like the New York Style, but limper. :)

Seriously, people here will wait in line 2 hours to get into the top pizza places.

|11.20.05 @ 9:23AM|#

Here in New Haven we're proud of having the New Haven style pizza

Is that the style where if you want toppings that someone else has on their pizza, the city will come in, remove them from the other's pie and put them on yours?

|11.20.05 @ 9:24AM|#

Aw shit, that's New London. God I hate fucking up a joke that already was pretty weak.

Hakluyt|11.20.05 @ 9:37AM|#

Anyway, I perfer deep dish pizza.

|11.20.05 @ 11:37AM|#

Viking Moose,

I'll second the ketchup on hotdogs thing. Downright disgusting. Also, what kind of sick monster puts cheese on pizza anyway? Or cheese on anything for that matter. Who was the first jackass that found cheese and said "I'll put that in my mouth."? The only thing a pizza should have on it is sauce, garlic, basil and sausage. Maybe pepperoni.

|11.20.05 @ 11:40AM|#

"Rachel ray -- hallow, cheap content that is sexy in only a way truckers could appreciate"

Well, call me a trucker...

|11.20.05 @ 12:02PM|#

The best pizza in the world, is in Berkely served at the Cheese Board. Beyond Italian, New York or any other this thin crust loving girl has ever had. Period.

dhex|11.20.05 @ 12:52PM|#

"Also, what kind of sick monster puts cheese on pizza anyway? "

yeah, i know. but you know what burns my butter? bread! who the fuck would put bread on a pizza? personally, i like to take a jar of tomato sauce, just pour it in my hands and shove my face in it.

now that's pizza!

Hakluyt|11.20.05 @ 12:57PM|#

dhex,

Ha! :)

Jeff Smith|11.20.05 @ 1:04PM|#

I did not much care for Chicago as a city (being from Seattle and all) but I will make it three for Gino's East, with two cheers for Giordano's as well. But, then, I really miss Harold's Chicken Shack too.

In my experience, avoiding European versions of American food is a good idea in general (and "pizza" of the sort being discussed here is an American dish). I was in Switzerland once when McDonald's was having "Chinese week" which featured (I'm not making this up) a "McFu" sandwich.

Jeff

Skeptico|11.20.05 @ 1:23PM|#

No thin crust in SF? Try Amici's. They will even make it extra thin crust if you ask them.

dhex|11.20.05 @ 1:54PM|#

i have an affinity for bad pizza - so new york pizza in amsterdam was one of my favorite places to hang out. it's like sbarros meets schipol airport. the pizza's heated up on little conveyer belts! they have people rollerblading in central park murals hanging on the walls!

alas, after the changeover to the euro, it was no longer the awesome 50 cents per slice deal i remember.

|11.20.05 @ 1:56PM|#

dhex,
Yeah, you're right, that's totally the same. You know, being that no pizza is ever without cheese and all...

|11.20.05 @ 2:03PM|#

things got so bad when i was living in Boulder, Colorado that i found Tombstone frozen pizzas to be the best thing around. congratulations to san francisco, but there are countless others across the west still suffering.

dhex|11.20.05 @ 2:26PM|#

"Yeah, you're right, that's totally the same. You know, being that no pizza is ever without cheese and all..."

i'm glad we see eye to eye on this issue. my "grandma saucey hands" style pies are a big hit with my family, though it can get a *bit* messy.

|11.20.05 @ 2:28PM|#

dhex,

"grandma saucey hands".

That would totally rule as a band name, by the way.

|11.20.05 @ 2:29PM|#

Red Baron mini-pans are a guilty pleasure of mine. Good Round Table-y sauce.

|11.20.05 @ 2:50PM|#

Pizza is like sex: even when it's bad it's still good.

Tim Cavanaugh|11.20.05 @ 3:00PM|#

There is no such thing as a "market failure." The concept itself is a self-contradiction.

"Professor, look! There's a twenty-dollar bill on the ground!"

"Nonsense, my boy. If there were a twenty-dollar bill on the ground somebody would have picked it up."

To clear up a misconception: I love Chicago. Minneapolis is my favorite midwestern metropolis, but I never have less than the time, the time of my life in the Windy City. My misgivings are strictly pizza-related and not intended to disparage anybody's Big Shoulders.

|11.20.05 @ 3:03PM|#

I take Pizza Hut, even in its pan pizzas, to still be serving something that's recognizably pizza. The Chicago tendency to market a bready lasagna under the name "pizza" is quite different, and approaches being false advertising.

Tim Cavanaugh|11.20.05 @ 3:09PM|#

Re NY-style pizza: why not just have toast?

Re: Chicago-style pizza: why not just have stromboli?

|11.20.05 @ 3:45PM|#

Fucking pizza snobs.

The worst pizza I ever had was a slice of Wonderbread with Campbell's tomato soup on it. And I treasured every bite. Living in Saudi Arabia tends to make you appreciate life's joys.

|11.20.05 @ 5:54PM|#

Maddog,

You refer, of course, to Pepe's and the auxiliary Pepe's right next to it, I presume.

Fan-fucking-tastic.

Fan-tastic.

Made a thin-slice convert out of me.

I'm perplexed by any reference to pizza without cheese. It seems to me that a pizza by definition has three parts: bread, sauce, cheese. Take away one, you might have something tasty, but it's ain't pizza.

Sourav|11.20.05 @ 8:42PM|#

Cheeseboard was below my notice until Stefanie mentioned it. *Putooey*

|11.20.05 @ 11:00PM|#

ok, for the record:

-Had awesome pizza at a hole-in-the-wall in NYC. But $13 for two slices and a freakin' Snapple was mind-boggling.

-I'm told that NYC's water is the secret ingredient.

-There used to be a place near Purdue's campus in West Lafayette, IN called Garcia's. Billed as being owned by "The Flying Tomato Brothers." They made a pizza that was more actual pie than pizza. Imagine a thin crust sunk into an aluminum pie pan, piled with ingredients, and served super-freakin'-hot. Fork required. They went out of business my senior year, though, and were replaced with a Pizza King. (blech.)

-Imo's sucks. All of my St. Louis relatives love it. We have to eat it at least once when we visit, but St. Louis style pizza is abysmal. Always tastes like somebody decided to throw a couple tablespoons of salt over the whole thing.

-For dissing on Rachel Ray, it's obvious that Old Bill is a Hammer 'n' Sickle-lickin' commie.

|11.20.05 @ 11:52PM|#

Whoever was bashin western NY's pizza should take a stop off at Nandos, Corteses, or about a billion other places in Binghamton that are delicious as all hell.

The Wine Commonsewer|11.21.05 @ 12:47AM|#

Pizzas are like burgers, lots of awful crap out there, but when you get a good one. Oh My!

|11.21.05 @ 1:07AM|#

new york pizza in amsterdam was one of my favorite places to hang out.

I'm about 100 meters from it at the moment, so let me assure you that it just SEEMED like it tasted good. In actuality, it has no flavor whatever, good or bad. Just mass and grease, perfect for the stoner. The true fine food in Amsterdam comes from Maoz falafel.

Fortunately, I'll be in Milan by tonight, then chowing down on the best pizza in the universe this weekend in Alba, while stuffing my suitcase full of Tipo Fino.

|11.21.05 @ 10:08AM|#

Pizza should not need to be folded to be eaten. That is the flaw of the NY pizza I've had. Also, thin crust can't seem to hold up well to the grease that is a necessary by product of the high pork product to greenery ratio that is the foundation of good pizza. NY style pizza only seems to work for low numbers of toppings and is probably optimized for pepperoni only, what with the slices being flat and all.

Chicago is just a more versatile product. It can get too bready if not done right, though. I will grant that.

|11.21.05 @ 10:56AM|#

Shecky, you don't understand about Imo's. I remember it being very good many years ago when I believe they used real pizza dough. Now they use pre-shaped frozen crusts. I still like them better than Pizza Hut and Papa John's.

Imo's is much better if you put it in the toaster oven for a couple of minutes. The crust gets crispy and it brings out the flavor.

|11.21.05 @ 10:59AM|#

I'll tell ya all about da pizza dey got over by here in Chicago.

Da tick crust stuff was basically invented here but was pretty much only at Uno and Due, and the chefs dere didn't make it all da same. So most of the chefs left those joints and started dere own pizza places, like Geno's East and Giordano's. But the one ting dey do here wit da tick crust in Chicago dat day don't do anywhere else is COOK IT LONG ENOUGH!

But screw da tick crust cuz dat's only for special occasions anyway. Most people over by here get da tin crust mosta da time. Da one ting Chicago's got over da coasts is better meat products, better cheese, and fresher wheat. Da tamata soss is different here, it's not as sweet as everywhere else, produce is da weak link in da Midwest. And dat's why da better places over by here don't overdo da soss on da tin crust pies, but we give ya lotsa cheese and meats and onions. (I can do widout da onions, but dat's just me.) And we give ya lotsa crust if dats whatcha want.

But tin and tick pizza are really two different tings. Dat's why da best deep dish pizza in Chicago is at places dat ONLY make deep dish. So stick wit da original Uno and Due, 'n' da older Geno'ses, some of da newer ones ain't so hot. Giordano's tin crust is way better dan dere deep dish. Lou Malnati's is good right before Lent, ya won't be eating for a couple days after one a dem. But da best places are da neighborhood joints, dey make pizza da way most people want it. Dere is a good tick crust place in Crestwood called Louisa's (run by a former Uno's chef) wit a real crispy, flaky crust dats light on da soss but it's delcious. Last time I was dere I got a sossich pie and ordered a Killian's and dey said "Sorry, sir, but we don't serve Irish beer here."

Viking, pillaging, scalping mo|11.21.05 @ 11:05AM|#

"Last time I was dere I got a sossich pie"

your east coast words betray you.

and it's called STUFFED PIZZA.

there is no thick crust.

|11.21.05 @ 12:41PM|#

Well, I've never lived in New York, but I do prefer thin crust pizza. In SF, you can get a really thin crust pizza at Gaspare's on Geary and 20th. Like Victor's, it's moderately priced family Italian restaurant. I absolutely love their pizza margerita, though it does have olive oil on it, which can diminish the crispiness of the crust in the center of the pie. I also love that they use oregano on the margerita, unlike most places around here that use basil.

In the East Bay, try Lanesplitters thin crust (they have pan pizza too). It's great pizza -- Italian sausage and capers, yum, though I know the pizza purists out there probably don't approve of capers on a pizza.

|11.21.05 @ 1:25PM|#

Never mind Chicago, peachy; how can Tim Cavanaugh hate sourdough?

Jennifer,

Have you ever been to San Francisco? I liked sourdough when I arrived there for a one-week visit, but by the time I left there, I was

|11.21.05 @ 1:29PM|#

My typo corrections

I liked sourdough when I arrived there for a one-week visit, but by the time I left there, I was completely sick of it and didn't have plans to eat it again any time in the near future. They inundate you with sourdough there:

|11.21.05 @ 2:34PM|#

In Chicago, deep dish is for special occasions like hosting out of town visitors. Our everyday pizza (and we do eat it more often than the rest of the country) is a thin crust pizza cut into squares. One of the best thin crusts in Chicago actually comes from Papa's Pizza in the far western suburbs. Papa's also does the best Italian Beef with cheese.

|11.21.05 @ 2:39PM|#

They inundate you there with sourdough there... It really soured me on the whole SF bread experience.

Consciously phrased or not, that was very clever.

PS: This thread is making me really hungry, and I just ate lunch.

|11.21.05 @ 4:05PM|#

They inundate you with sourdough there:

I read this and had a flashback to a long weekend I spent with a girlfriend in Santa Fe - substitute "green chile" for "sourdough". You cannot escape green chile there. By Saturday night we were giggling drunkenly in the restaurant "If it isn't green chile, it's crap". I am sure they put green chiles on their pizzas in New Mexico.

|11.21.05 @ 4:08PM|#

The worst concievable pizza around is Imo's in the St. Louis area. ISTR it was touted as "St. Louis- style", something for which they should be deeply ashamed. Funny thing is that while locals love it, anyone who comes from anywhere else thinks it's not only bad, but the worst excuse for pizza concievable.

As a patriotic St. Louisan, I must borrow the only fitting response from the story "When Freemen Shall Stand" by J. Neil Schulman:

"I don't like you ... You are indecent. You have no regard for our legends or our history or our culture. You don't have a clue what makes us tick. Your movies and books lie about our history and libel our forefathers. You steal our families' lands ... You are the most sanctimonious, self-righteous creatures ever to walk the earth. There is no living with you, and I will burn this entire goddamned country down before you will ever get anything to drink here."

(Actually, Imo's probably does suck compared to what's available elsewhere in the country, but I cannot admit that. As a local, I am not only inured to it but slightly addicted. I will say that the best pizza I ever had in St. Louis was Brooklyn Bridge New York Style Pizza back when I was in college, and it's not around any more.)

|11.21.05 @ 4:17PM|#

"I don't like you ... You are indecent."

But their pizza....is it decent? That's all we really need to know.

I'm going to open up a pizza shop called "Indecent Pizza", and I'm going to make lewd pictures on the pizza with the toppings.

It will be a suitably complimentary product for erotic cakes.

|11.21.05 @ 4:18PM|#

A second for Western NY pizza. The best is found at Nina's in Norwich, NY.

Worst pizza experience -- getting off the ferry in Swinouche (sp?), Poland, I grabbed something approximating a lengthwise slice of a baguette covered in ketchup and some sort of ground meat, soaked through like a sponge with what tasted like dishwater.

Best pizza on the planet?

Pala's "World's Worst Pizza" Wilmington, DE.

Absolutely correct.

Honorable mention: Grotto's, Rehoboth Beach. All you D.C.-area vacationers know what I'm talking about...

Good lord, are you on crack?

When I was 12 or 13, I was on vacation in Rehoboth Beach with my family. My best friend was down there with me, and we had lunch on the street at Grotto's. The two of us spent the next two days fighting over the toilet.

He and I are pushing thirty, and we still say we're "having a Grotto" when we're suffering the runs.

- Josh

|11.21.05 @ 5:39PM|#

As I mentioned on another thread somewhere, you have not had bad pizza until you've had Japanese pizza. "America Style" is particularly bad.

Runny sauce, hot dogs, and corn topped with mayo.

|11.21.05 @ 5:40PM|#

B.P.:

Your Poland experience reminds me of a story I heard Wendy and RIchard Pini (of Elfquest fame) tell at a Con. They were traveling in Scotland (to, naturally, another Con) and Richard was longing for some American-style cuisine. They found out a pub they were in had pizza, so over their local hosts' objections, he ordered it. Turns out they make it by throwing a frozen pizza in the fish-and-chips oil for several minutes.

Much of the rest of the story involved toilet hilarities.

|11.21.05 @ 6:55PM|#

I'm going to open up a pizza shop called "Indecent Pizza", and I'm going to make lewd pictures on the pizza with the toppings.

"Hello? I would like to order a Hide the Sausage Special. With extra pepperoni, please."

Aargh, I can't stand it. I'm going across the street right now to get a pizza. (C.J. Muggs' pizza isn't bad at all, at least for St. Louis.)

|11.21.05 @ 7:31PM|#

Pizzeria Regina in Boston's north end. Best pizza I have ever had, and I am originally from New York. Not quite Neapolitan (crust is a little thicker than the typical NY pizza), but the cheese, sauce, herbs, and crustiness are right on. Note that you need to go to the original on Thatcher Street, not to the chain versions that have recently appeared.

|11.21.05 @ 8:10PM|#

Nemo I:

Don't be such a F.I.B. :)

Nostalgic for NewYawk Pizza? See:

http://www.sliceny.com/

Flatlanders can check out

Kevin

http://www.chicagopizza.net/

|11.23.05 @ 3:11AM|#

Thin Crust Chicago style beats nasty NY Thin crust hands down.

Northwest Suburbs - Nick's in Crystal Lake and Elgin, and Village Pizza in Carpentersville. Jakes used to be good before they went franchise.

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