Outrageous Comparisons

Julian Sanchez | November 14, 2005

Remember the furor this summer when Sen. Dick Durbin (D-Ill.) read off a description of how prisoners at Gitmo were treated, then suggested that if you'd heard it out of context, you'd surely think it was a description of a Soviet gulag? Durbin was finally pressured to apologize for the unconscionable comparison.

Except, according to a piece in The New York Times today, we've been cribbing our interrogation tactics from Vietnam and North Korea. Initially, those tactics had been studied as part of a classfied program called Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape (SERE), designed to help U.S. soldiers resist breaking under interrogation. But in 2002, the Pentagon decided to mine the program for ideas. What sort of ideas? The article explains:

SERE methods are classified, but the program's principles are known. It sought to recreate the brutal conditions American prisoners of war experienced in Korea and Vietnam, where Communist interrogators forced false confessions from some detainees, and broke the spirits of many more, through Pavlovian and other conditioning. Prolonged isolation, sleep deprivation, painful body positions and punitive control over life's most intimate functions produced overwhelming stress in these prisoners. Stress led in turn to despair, uncontrollable anxiety and a collapse of self-esteem. Sometimes hallucinations and delusions ensued. Prisoners who had been through this treatment became pliable and craved companionship, easing the way for captors to obtain the "confessions" they sought.

Meanwhile, the debate in the Senate continues over whether to strip Gitmo detainees of the habeas corpus rights. We know, because the military's own internal documents confirm it, that some of those detainess have no connection to terrorism.

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|11.14.05 @ 1:58PM|#

Secret camps? Check.

Techniques used by the secret police in Communist dictatorships? Check.

Actually using the secret prison facilities constructed and operated by Soviet Bloc secret police to hold, punish, and interrogate their internal dissidents? Check.

But remember, Amnesty Internation is grossly irresponsible for using the word "gulag."

|11.14.05 @ 1:59PM|#

America: Fuck Yeah!

|11.14.05 @ 2:00PM|#

But joe, it's not our tactics that determine whether we're good or bad.

It's our intentions.

theOneState|11.14.05 @ 2:07PM|#

Julian, Joe, don't be so smug. How many died in the Soviet Gulags? How many were imprisoned? What were their crimes? What was the PURPOSE of the Gulags?

The comparison is not apt, no matter how gross the conduct of the CIA etc in conducting these interrogations. I mean, this isn't even close.

Yes, the Amnesty guy was grossly negligent. Just b/c some Hit&Run commenters defend torture doesn't mean the *other* idiots are right.

|11.14.05 @ 2:07PM|#

Interesting how it's assumed that torture works (yields useful info) and so the debate becomes is it moral, the American Way, etc. Don't you pretty much wind up saying whatever the torturer wants to hear? Maybe all those people burned at the stake during the Inquisition had signed a pact with the devil but I tend to doubt it.

|11.14.05 @ 2:10PM|#

It's a sad day when America has to be defended with the equivalent of "But Stalin would be worse!"

I thought that the original idea was that the Nation of Immigrants should be better than EVERYBODY. The only way to attract people from every corner of the globe is to hold yourself to a higher standard than any other country.

|11.14.05 @ 2:13PM|#

TheOneState,

Yes, our gulags are not as bad as their gulags. Fuck Yeah!

thoreau, our intentions are not limited to the strategic goals of this war. Thos who set up this system intended people to be tortured in them, and those intentions count, too.

Brian, sometimes torture works and sometimes it doesn't. The idiot in the Phillipines who got arrested when he set in kitchen on fire didn't give up the LAX plot because the local security forces called him poopie head and took away his cable TV.

theOneState|11.14.05 @ 2:14PM|#

Brian, I don't think everyone agrees that torture doesn't work. So the arguments are varied, some being moral, some being practical.

thoreau, I wasn't defending a/t at all in any way, just opining that this comparison isn't at all appropriate.

keith|11.14.05 @ 2:30PM|#

I'm sure when I get home tonight, Bill O'Reilly will assure me this is all much ado about nothing.

-Keith

theOneState|11.14.05 @ 2:40PM|#

joe, quick question:

If you make a ridiculous comparion b/n U.S. terrorist prisons and the Soviet Gulag and I suggest it's a poor comparison, am I proud of my country?

|11.14.05 @ 2:47PM|#

If I ever make a ridiculous comparison between lawfully operated prisons in which the US holds people known to be terrorists, and the Soviet gulags, I'll let you know.

|11.14.05 @ 2:51PM|#

Some would say that just deprivation of freedom is torture. I'm sure it would be for me. How dare we torture people by denying them the right to walk away?

|11.14.05 @ 2:55PM|#

Democrats: put up someone who isn't a utter loon and who will outright say s/he'll stop this. Not someone who might make vague remarks about the terrible things the bushies are doing - someone who will say "I will stop this".

Please.

Or, "I dare you". Whatever works.

|11.14.05 @ 3:00PM|#

(And by "this", I mean all of it. Holding people indefinitely without trial, holding American citizens indefinitely without trial, torture. All of it.)

|11.14.05 @ 3:02PM|#

As I've said before, torture is a reliable way to get unreliable information. This is especially true when it's used as standard operating procedure, which we're doing to some degree. That said, in highly specific cases I wouldn't bar the total use of torture.

Yes, our gulags are not as bad as their gulags. Fuck Yeah!

Honestly, I think it's important to make that distinction, even though it certainly doesn't absolve us of any wrongdoing. As I've said before, it's important to accurately diagnose the problem in order to solve it. Claiming equivalence to Soviet gualgs allows supporters of our current procedures to dismiss accurate and specific complaints much more easily.

|11.14.05 @ 3:09PM|#

Three soldiers have been ordered to stand trial on murder charges in General Mowhoush's death. Yet the Pentagon cannot point to any intelligence gains resulting from the techniques that have so tarnished America's image. That's because the techniques designed by communist interrogators were created to control a prisoner's will rather than to extract useful intelligence.

'fess up you torture apologists--you know you want to...

...Is anything unjustifiable in the pursuit of security?

|11.14.05 @ 3:10PM|#

So: How many of the folks who howled with outrage that someone might compare our tactics with those of despotic communist regimes will exhibit it in the same measure toward those who made the comparison apt by deciding to model our interrogation tactics on those of despotic communist regimes?

I don't know; how many will howl over the fact that the measures described re SERE are inflicted on our own soldiers for training purposes? My brother's an Air Force pilot; he's described the experience, and it's even more dreadful than the description Julian excerpts. I've discussed it with a former Ranger, who went through the same thing at (I think) a different location. It's brutal, but NOT so brutal that we don't impose it on all our pilots and most of our infantry and cavalry members.

Maybe there's more in the firewalled article (which I should be able to access but NYT won't honor my login), but is it so horrific to potentially subject a small subset of suspected terrorists to the treatment we inflict on our own? Just askin'.

|11.14.05 @ 3:17PM|#

"but is it so horrific to potentially subject a small subset of suspected terrorists to the treatment we inflict on our own?"

Except that we didn't "inflict" it on our own - they volunteered for it. I'm pretty sure that the terrorism suspects (and even that is a description that is too kind) didn't.

Next irrelevant logically fallacy, please.

|11.14.05 @ 3:20PM|#

I knew a guy once who'd been to SERE school. I don't know if he was lying but he was in Force Recon (USMC special forces) and I wasn't about to question him.

He never told us anything really specific except that while the school wasn't that long, it was an absolute nightmare. The one thing that stuck out in my mind was that apparently the rules by which the instructors operate at SERE school are not nearly as stringent as other schools with respect to student treatment. Military schools - infantry-related schools, anyway - are automatically tough and seek out attrition, but there are always professional parameters the instructors must respect (of course there are exceptions, but at least the rules are still in place). Apparently none of that exists at SERE school. From the time you check in to the time you leave, they own you and are given a wide latitude in determining how they wish to treat you. I know that sounds like a "well, duh" observation, but when a person who could be mistaken for a homocidal grizzly bear tells you that, it chills you to the bone. And to know the government is using schools that teach you how to deal with torture (and escape, evasion, etc.) to then torture others is, well, nightmarishly frightening.

Again, this is secondhand information, but the NYT article and this Marine's description dovetail verrrrry nicely.

|11.14.05 @ 3:21PM|#

Important Distinction:
Using SERE techniques on our own soldiers is a world away from using those techniques on detainees. A volunteer soldier knows that his training, at some point in the relatively near future, will end, and he'll be able to go back to his unit and live life normally. A detainee must endure this for as long as the government feels like it, with absolutely no recourse.

"Some would say that just deprivation of freedom is torture. I'm sure it would be for me. How dare we torture people by denying them the right to walk away?"

And then, of course, there's the "Chinese Straw Treatment," which some would describe as torture. This is a technique that involves taking a captive, and dumping small loads of straw on him, again and a again, on top of his head. This practice has been know to result in confusion, distraction, irritation, and for the lucky few, avoidance.

While there is some dispute about whether such a practice counts as "torture," it is universally held in low repute, and its practitioners are generally mocked and ignored.

raymond|11.14.05 @ 3:24PM|#

Julian, Joe, don't be so smug. How many died in the Soviet Gulags? How many were imprisoned? What were their crimes? What was the PURPOSE of the Gulags?

You've only just begin. You've got to give yourselves time.

With time and effort, you'll be as good at this as the Soviets were. I'm sure of it.

Patience.

|11.14.05 @ 3:33PM|#

Maybe if we subjected democrats , or gays , or catholic priests , or anybody else that didn't fir our political leanings to torture we could be compared to the soviet gulags , but perhaps those being interrogated have done something to warrant such tactics (digusting as they are).This in my mind is not a trivial difference.

|11.14.05 @ 3:34PM|#

This whole "we use it on our own people" is a little like saying "I screw my wife in the ass, so what's the big deal when I do it to a complete stranger against their will?" Consent matters quite a bit in this context. And, when our people are getting this treatment as a form of training, they at least know that they will not DIE unless something goes very very wrong. Detainees have no such assurances-- to the contrary, despite all the secrecy, it is documented that detainees have in fact been killed. The threat of death or permanent harm, or just the threat of the treatment going on FOREVER, makes comparison to voluntary training completely irrelevant.

|11.14.05 @ 3:37PM|#

doubled,

No doubt, there are differences.

But not nearly as many as any believer in human rights and decency would like to see.

The very thought that I am worth "torturing for" is the ultimate compliment. I feel warm and fuzzy.

One state did it to repress its people. Our state does it to repress criminal behavior. Yes, there is a difference.

So, Joe, you should give up the argument. Clearly, one can see no logical comparison between a state torturing enemies in prisons to maintain its power with a state torturing enemies in prisons to maintain its power.

It is lubdicrous, therefore, to state that a Gulag is anything like our detention fascilities in former Gulags. For we torture for good reasons, while they tortured for bad reasons.

|11.14.05 @ 3:40PM|#

but perhaps those being interrogated have done something to warrant such tactics

Like being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Or being rounded up by some warlord who is getting paid by the head.

I love the logic (and on a libertarian site no less) that says that if you've been rounded up you must have done something to warrant being rounded up.

Because we know that no one ever gets arrested/detained/mistreated by authority figures unless they have done something that makes them deserving of that.

|11.14.05 @ 3:42PM|#

Are we anywhere near as bad as the Soviets yet? Of course not. We still have some noble intentions.

Even Sauron wore a fair-seeming form at first. He told the Elves that he wanted to create Rings of Power, and filled their heads with dreams of greatness. They were fooled, of course.

Some people have come to us with tales of limited government, and assurances that with enough power they can make it happen. They have reneged on every assurance, violated every promise, and have instead brought on monstrosities.

Sauron told Ar-Pharazon that beyond this world there is nothing but blackness, and so if he wishes to avoid that great darkness and remain in this world forever he must declare war on all that is good and holy and filled with light. And Ar-Pharazon drank the kool aid and brought war on Numenor.

In our day and age, they have made some of us too afraid to cry foul, by casting a Shadow of fear on their hearts, telling them that other people in this world are even worse, and so they must cast aside freedom and civility and restraint, and embrace their innermost demons to ward off liberals and terrorists.

I pity the fools who will help a new Shadow accumulate power, and who will cheer as that Shadow destroys all that has made this land good.

fyodor|11.14.05 @ 3:44PM|#

doubled,

Maybe if we subjected democrats , or gays , or catholic priests , or anybody else that didn't fir our political leanings to torture we could be compared to the soviet gulags , but perhaps those being interrogated have done something to warrant such tactics (digusting as they are).This in my mind is not a trivial difference.

Two things do not have to be exactly the same in all ways for them to have similarities that are worth noting. More specifically, no one is saying that the criteria for being put into Gitmo or our other more secret prisons are identical to the criteria for being placed in a Soviet gulag. The comparison is in how prisoners in either place are treated. Now, if you believe that there's no problem in treating our prisoners like prisoners in Soviet gulags, please feel free to tell us why rather than complain about the analogy because the reasons prisoners are put there are different, as no one is claiming otherwise.

Hell, any two distinct phenomena have differences or they wouldn't be distinct phenomena! Saying we shouldn't compare two things because they're not perfectly identical is a waste of time.

theOneState|11.14.05 @ 3:45PM|#

If I ever make a ridiculous comparison between lawfully operated prisons in which the US holds people known to be terrorists, and the Soviet gulags, I'll let you know.

Thanks. But it was a hypothetical question and suggested nothing about the legality of of U.S.-run war prisons.

Anyway, you're also wrong about Chinese Straw Treatment: you are routinely mocked but hardly ever ignored.

|11.14.05 @ 3:46PM|#

Jeff:

TMI.

I don't mean to defend the current practices -- I'm just pointing out a little-evaluated comparison. I'm unpersuaded by the "consent" rationale. That's a basis for not inflicting this treatment on random strangers; it's not a clear basis for evaluating how we attempt to get information from trained hard-cases, some or all of whom want to murder as many of your children as possible.

I agree that torture=bad. I also agree that we needn't arrest suspected al Qaeda members, deport them to [place of their choice] and ask them to leave us alone. They're demonstrably unlikely to cooperate if treated like ordinary US felons, and without their cooperation it is certain that many more innocent people will die. So what do we do? I don't know, but it doesn't involve the rack or heated irons. Might it involve degradation, humiliation and discomfort? Perhaps.

And it's not very credible to say "well of course we'll do that to Marines, but never to terrorists captured fighting against us!" If you insist, that's when they "volunteered" for harsh treatment.

Again, I don't have the answers, but I'm not impressed with how the questions have been phrased, either.

|11.14.05 @ 3:51PM|#

I guess I'm the Tolkien version of gaius marius, lamenting the glories of Numenor and Elvenhome, pining for the lost Silmarils. I should have a more Elven-sounding name.

Oh Elberth! Gilthoniel!
We still remember we who dwell,
In this far land beneath the trees,
Thy Starlight on the Western Seas.

|11.14.05 @ 3:58PM|#

"They're demonstrably unlikely to cooperate if treated like ordinary US felons,"

And U.S. felons are demonstrably cooperative? Do you have any knowledge whatsoever of the U.S. criminal justice system?

"And it's not very credible to say "well of course we'll do that to Marines, but never to terrorists captured fighting against us!" "

You're right, your statement is not very credible because once again you are conflating. If you've proven to an independent tribunal that these persons were captured fighting against us, you have at least the beginnings of a point. But as the article points out, at least some of the detainees have no connection to terrorism whatsoever.

Next irrelevant logical fallacy, please.

They're demonstrably unlikely to cooperate if treated like ordinary US felons, and without their cooperation it is certain that many more innocent people will die.

I don't believe that this is as certain of an outcome as you say. Likewise, our country has had numerous cases of extremely dangerous mass murderers who would not hesitate to "murder as many of your children as possible." I would not consider these individuals to be ordinary felons, however I have no reason to believe that any of them were tortured.

|11.14.05 @ 4:05PM|#

Thoreau : I like your reference to Lord of the Rings. I too consider myself a humanist who values life ,and would love nothing more than to be in a world where we don't have to 'cast aside freedom and civility and restraint, and embrace their innermost demons to ward off liberals and terrorists.'
But how to deal with those who obviously don't share that worldview? Particulary those who consider the U.S. the terrorists of the world, and are willing to 'cast aside freedom and civility and restraint, and embrace their innermost demons to ward off liberals and terrorists.'

|11.14.05 @ 4:07PM|#

I am an 8-year Navy vet who attended SERE school. Let's clear up a few misconceptions.

First, SERE students are volunteers, not involuntarily held captives.

Second, the techniques used in SERE school are harsh, surprising and even similar to some (not all) of the interrogation techniques used in Abu Ghraib. However, they absolutely are not torture. Remember it is SERE School. SERE instructors have very strict rules of conduct to ensure that the learning experience is not overwhelmed by the physical/mental aspects of the school. Instructors are allowed to strike students with open palms, not closed fists or back handed. Students are subject to forced nudity, but not publicly. Students are deprived of food and sleep, and are subject to other forms of mental and physical stress, but always in a very controlled environment. Abu Ghraib and other prisons are the very definition of uncontrolled. When was the last time someone died in SERE School?

To someone unfamiliar with the goals of the school and the experience of American POWs in Viet Nam, etc., even these tightly controlled conditions may seem too harsh. However, the school is designed to prepare potential students for much more drastic conditions that they may face in 'The Real World.' American POWs from Desert Storm have verified that the school helped them cope with the tortuous treatment they received from the Iraqis.

Finally, unlike prisoners in perpetual captivity, every SERE student knows that the school will eventually end, which makes handling the conditions much easier.

Just so we are clear, I am in no way defending the actions of the CIA, I am not trying to draw some sort of moral comparison between SERE School and our secret prisons, etc. The existence of secret torture chambers and the treatment of prisoners at Gitmo and Abu Ghraib sicken me. I just think that comparisons between these things and SERE School are unfounded.

|11.14.05 @ 4:09PM|#

What ever happened that anti-torture bill passed by the senate? How is it doing in the house?

I would prefer to predict that it will pass and the President will not start vetoing things now.

Maybe I am just a cock-eyed optimist though.

|11.14.05 @ 4:10PM|#

Except that we didn't "inflict" it on our own - they volunteered for it. I'm pretty sure that the terrorism suspects (and even that is a description that is too kind) didn't.

What do you mean they didn't volunteer? They volunteered for Al Qaeda didn't they?

Oh wait - that's right they're suspects. Just some random guys we rounded up at the Kandahar Greyhound terminal. Now we torture them for no good reason because we're the bad guys.

But let's just say one or two of them might actually have Al Qaeda pledge pins. Seems to me if you join a terrorist organization getting your balls cattle-prodded when you get captured is just part of the deal. It's like on page two of the recruitment pamphlet.

|11.14.05 @ 4:11PM|#

|11.14.05 @ 4:14PM|#

Damn! How do you people type so fast?

I didn't think it took that long for me to compose my post, yet even in that short time other people raised all my points before me.

Oh, well. Maybe I have more credibility that others, cuz I actually went to the School.

Then again, maybe not.

|11.14.05 @ 4:15PM|#

Oh wait - that's right they're suspects. Just some random guys we rounded up at the Kandahar Greyhound terminal. Now we torture them for no good reason because we're the bad guys.

Well, some of them have turned out to be guys who were handed over by unscrupulous bounty hunters and warlords seeking reward money.

|11.14.05 @ 4:24PM|#

There goes thoreau, playing the race card again.

ralphus, would you care to jam a cattle prod into the balls of a bound captive who's begging you for mercy? How about your daughter - would you like to see her pursue such a career?

What the hell are you trying to do to this country?

|11.14.05 @ 4:25PM|#

But let's just say one or two of them might actually have Al Qaeda pledge pins. Seems to me if you join a terrorist organization getting your balls cattle-prodded when you get captured is just part of the deal. It's like on page two of the recruitment pamphlet.

"Volunteering" for terrorism should not make the prospect of torture in American hands any more justified than the prospect of torture in Iraqi hands of American soldiers who also volunteered. I would not excuse Iraqi soldiers for torturing American soldiers because the American soldiers volunteered, and well, that's the risk they take. Torture is not part of any package.

|11.14.05 @ 4:27PM|#

"Please! Please! No! NOOOO!!!!"

Bzzzzzttttt!!!!! "God, Please!!!" Bzzzzttttt!!!!

Is that what you want to be, ralphus? Is that what you want our Republic to be?

|11.14.05 @ 4:35PM|#

"race card"?

Just because us Noldor are more scientifically gifted than the other Elves doesn't mean I'm racist.

|11.14.05 @ 4:45PM|#

ralphus, would you care to jam a cattle prod into the balls of a bound captive who's begging you for mercy?

Depends. What did they do?

How about your daughter - would you like to see her pursue such a career?

I was hoping she would be a topless dancer, but if she felt the call to shock balls - who am I to stand in the way of her dreams?

What the hell are you trying to do to this country?

I don't vote or contribute to political parties. I'm not running for office. So I'm not trying to do much at all to this country. Last time I checked I'm just a bozo posting on H&R. I had no idea I wielded enough power to bring this country down.

The Bush Administration didn't invent the use of torture by Americans. If he did, where did all these highly trained torturers we employee come from? Did they take a crash course? No. They were ready and on call because we have used them in every war since the Revolution. To act as if this is a recent development is naive and shows a complete lack of understanding of how we have come out ahead in most conflicts we've entered into since our inception. We fight dirty. Really dirty.

Viking Moose|11.14.05 @ 4:52PM|#

ooooh!!!!! i can guess who's been mastering his body weight lately. ooooh. mr tough guy. wow. can i feel your muscle, too?

fucktards 'r' us must not be monitoring the internet at the group home.

Herrick: sic balls!

|11.14.05 @ 4:53PM|#

Depends. What did they do?

This one bounty hunter swears up and down that they're bad. Really bad.

Hey, want a ring? It's supposed to make you really powerful.

|11.14.05 @ 4:57PM|#

I have a friend who went through SERE as a USAFA cadet. I didn't know it was classified. It is broken up into several phases:

Survival: The concept is that you got shot down with your copilot. The first thing you have to do is feed yourself. You are given one live rabbit at the start of the thing to do with what you will. I forget the time frame involved, but you have to use techniques learned in the class portion to keep yourself fed and hydrated while on the move. I know that you are very hungry by the end of the thing, whether you eat the rabbit or not. They call it the doctrine of Thump and Muck. First you thump it on the head, then you muck it down. Do not confuse the order of events (as in the guy who mucked the live grasshopper, which in turn latched onto his asophagus).

Evasion: You have to use land navigation and evasion techniques to avoid being caught by patrols of marines or green berets.

Resistance: After X time evading, moving, and not eating much, you WILL get captured. They move you into holding and interrogation cells to try to get a critical piece of information out of you. The thing is pretty unpleasant. Elements I know about included sleep deprivation, spray with the hose, forcing you to stand up for long stretches of time, depriving you of a certain nutrient (potassium I think), and, my personal favorite, they pipe Yoko Ono into your cell. No striking, no drugs, and no electricity. You get exposed to good cop bad cop, prisoner delimma, and all the standard interrogation techniques. I did hear that some kids were hallucinating, and the guy I know kept thinking that one part of the Yoko song was a washing machine in his cell (it was dark). He'd try to lean on the machine and fall into the wall.

Escape:

Actually, my understanding is that the grand finale is that real SEALS break you out.

Viking Moose the Impure|11.14.05 @ 4:58PM|#

is it a cock ring?

c'mon, thoreaudil - when you have sons, teach them to punch first. kick in the balls. urinate on their clothes when THEY are in class. this teaches kidz to be tuff. real tuff. so they can be tuff. and talk tuff. and master their own bodyweight. and be real tuff. trust me. one of these guys told me in a chat room that he submitted ken shamrock back in 95. and he coulda beaten gracie back then, but he had a cold. yeah. real bad. real tuff

|11.14.05 @ 5:10PM|#

"Volunteering" for terrorism should not make the prospect of torture in American hands any more justified than the prospect of torture in Iraqi hands of American soldiers who also volunteered.

I don't think volunteering to be a soldier and volunteering to be a terrorist is the same thing, but I get your drift.

As far as being justified. If I were an Iraqi I would have thought torturing an American soldier to be plenty justified. It's war. He�s part of an invading army. All bets are off. I'm going to extract what information he has from him. If he has none to extract, at least I made him pay for attacking my country.

When you join the military or a terrorist outfit then one of the many possible outcomes is that you could end up being captured and tortured. It's not right or wrong it's just what happens. That's why we have SERE School to begin with. To prepare soldiers to withstand torture because in wars people get tortured. The only way to get rid of it use in warfare would be to get rid of warfare.

|11.14.05 @ 5:12PM|#

When you join the military or a terrorist outfit then one of the many possible outcomes is that you could end up being captured and tortured.

What if you're just a peasant in Xinjiang province, captured by a bounty hunter?

|11.14.05 @ 5:37PM|#

What if you're just a peasant in Xinjiang province, captured by a bounty hunter?

We incinerated millions of innocent Japanese at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but I'm supposed to get all worked up over one peasant from Xinjiang?

War sucks. Fighting sucks. But if you end up in a war or a fight I think you should fight dirty and fight to win. This country has fought dirty since day one. Why should we change now? Especially with an enemy as loathsome as the one we currently face.

Now, back to mastering my own body weight and perfecting my submission holds.

I�m training for the Octagon!

|11.14.05 @ 5:45PM|#

Why does (almost) everyone on this thread conflate the article Julian linked with torture? There's nothing there about cattle prods or broken limbs. It's not about Abu Ghraib, and it's not about the kind of treatment that gets the inflicting soldier a court martial.

Should the military or Congress ban the use of SERE-type treatment of suspected terrorists captured overseas? Is it inherently wrong to use these techniques because they were widely used by vile regimes? (Note this does not mean using every technique, such as electric shock or beatings with cables.)

Of course, a separate question is whether such techniques actually work. From what I've read, they're more likely to than the raw infliction of pain, but it's (fortunately) not a topic I've studied.

|11.14.05 @ 5:54PM|#

I have a friend who went through SERE as a USAFA cadet. I didn't know it was classified.

Um, don't mention this to your friend, or he has to kill you... ;)

"Why does (almost) everyone on this thread conflate the article Julian linked with torture?"

Because it feels good to take the moral high ground.

|11.14.05 @ 6:11PM|#

|11.14.05 @ 6:14PM|#

Slightly off-topic - what's "Pavlovian conditioning" in the context of interrogation? I'm only familiar with "Pavlovian conditioning" as learned response to a stimulus, with the classic example being dogs that after hearing a bell ring each time before being fed would start salivating upon hearing a bell rung.

|11.14.05 @ 6:21PM|#

If we didn't have the Soviet Union, we'd have to create^B^B^B^B^B^B become it.

|11.14.05 @ 6:23PM|#

Shelby writes: "There's nothing there about cattle prods or broken limbs."

How about bamboo under the fingernails?

Or pulling teeth?

Wait, I get it. It's not torture unless we're using giant shredders, is that it?

|11.14.05 @ 6:24PM|#

doubled-

How did we deal with the anarchists of the late 19th century and early 20th century? The ones who set off bombs and killed several heads of state, including President McKinley? Did we transform ourselves into Mordor/East Germany? Or did we find a better way?

I agree with Ralphus. What makes you think we did things any differntly back then. The main difference is that now we have a media willing to 'out' such procedures ,portraying them as only worthy of 'evil regimes', and an opposing party willing to jump on the bandwagon for political gain.

|11.14.05 @ 6:36PM|#

The "we do it to our own troops" argument is weak.

Consider, that when that happens, everybody knows they're working with US troops, and so are going to go easy.

Consider, on the other hand, what happened to a US soldier at Gitmo who was playing the part of a prisoner during a guard training exercise. The guards didn't know he was American, so he got the usual treatment reserved for the prisoners.

And wound up with brain damage.

Does anyone want to try to make an argument that a CIA agent in Eastern Europe or a soldier in Uzbekistan will take it easy on someone who is supposedly (against all evidence and probability) the next Osama bin Laden?

|11.14.05 @ 7:34PM|#

"This country has fought dirty since day one. Why should we change now?"

Might as well ask why we should care about other people.

I feel sorry for you, your family, your friends and the people you work with, and I hope my rights are never at the mercy of you or anyone who listens to you.

|11.14.05 @ 7:39PM|#

We incinerated millions of innocent Japanese at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but I'm supposed to get all worked up over one peasant from Xinjiang?

So you use Harry Truman as your moral compass?

|11.14.05 @ 7:49PM|#

Jon H-

Do you have a link to the story of the soldier who suffered brain damage?

|11.14.05 @ 7:50PM|#

One state did it to repress its people. Our state does it to repress criminal behavior. Yes, there is a difference.

Bullshit.

Do you honestly think that the people tortured in Soviet Russia weren't branded as criminals?

Have you looked at the number of laws on the books in the US?

It's only a matter of time before this shit gets applied to criminals stateside.

And then after that, they'll start applying it to "criminals."

|11.14.05 @ 8:06PM|#

"Stress led in turn to despair, uncontrollable anxiety and a collapse of self-esteem."

Sounds like any good old prison across this great nation. Nothing wrong with that. Ask most people on the street. They will gladly confirm it. Coz, you know, It just can't ever happen to them.

|11.14.05 @ 8:16PM|#

thoreaudil, here's a link to a story in the Scotsman. I'm sure there are plenty of others.

"A UNITED States soldier claims he was left brain damaged by a beating he received while posing as an un-cooperative prisoner at the Guantánamo Bay detention camp in Cuba.

Sean Baker said that military police taking part in an exercise at the notorious Camp Delta slammed his head on the ground repeatedly, causing a seizure disorder that led to him being medically discharged from the National Guard. The claim is bound to raise further concerns over the treatment of detainees at the prison camp. "

etc.

|11.14.05 @ 9:01PM|#

Hey ralphus, "Last time I checked I'm just a bozo posting on H&R. I had no idea I wielded enough power to bring this country down."

Don't be a worm; either stand by your arguments, or don't make them.

As far as the "bad things happen in war, so it's all good" argument - does that mean we have to release Saddam? Those Shiites must have known what they were volunteering for.

|11.14.05 @ 9:21PM|#

As far as the "bad things happen in war, so it's all good" argument - does that mean we have to release Saddam? Those Shiites must have known what they were volunteering for.

Lets not even get started on the Jews in WW2 (oops, broke godwin's law).

fyodor|11.14.05 @ 9:29PM|#

(oops, broke godwin's law)

Technically, you confirmed Godwin's law! :-)

|11.15.05 @ 2:08AM|#

The Pentagon appears to have flipped SERE's teachings on their head, mining the program not for resistance techniques but for interrogation methods.

Now the Senate has voted to lock down his only hope, the courts, and to throw away the key forever.

Shed a tear for him. Cry a river for what has happened to our republic. Only by our tears, outrage, and protest may we prove to the world that this is an aberration and not representative of the American people, but rather our shameful government gone horribly wrong. Also, from the evidence of history; if we don't see to it that these barbarities come to an end, they will likely be visited upon dissent here at home.

|11.15.05 @ 11:37AM|#

So you use Harry Truman as your moral compass?

This from a guy who uses Gandalf as his.

Don't be a worm; either stand by your arguments, or don't make them.

Show me where I backed away from my arguments. All I was pointing out is that you were engaging in a bit of melodrama with your, "What the hell are you trying to do to this country?" comment. Also, I never said "bad things happen in war so it's all good." I did say something to the effect of bad things happen in war, so if you get into one go all out so it is over a soon as possible.

Speaking of melodrama:

Shed a tear for him. Cry a river for what has happened to our republic. Only by our tears, outrage, and protest may we prove to the world that this is an aberration and not representative of the American people, but rather our shameful government gone horribly wrong.

This is not an aberration. This is how we wage war. And by we I mean humans. You guys seem to live in a fantasy Hollywood war movie world where only the dirty Japs or evil Krauts mistreat and abuse prisoners. Face it; we've played just as dirty as any of our enemies - actually dirtier. It's part of the reason we hold the position we do now. And now, with one of the dirtiest fighting enemy we have ever faced, you want us to fight by Marquise of Queensberry Rules?

Also, from the evidence of history; if we don't see to it that these barbarities come to an end, they will likely be visited upon dissent here at home.

Are their tiger cages at your local percent? Are we waterboarding ELF members? Has Michael Moore been disappeared? What is your historical evidence? Show me the well established, liberal democracy that turned into a police state because of it's military interrogation practices.

|11.15.05 @ 11:44AM|#

Sorry - I Italicized poorly. This part is my comment, not part of Rick's:

This is not an aberration. This is how we wage war. And by we I mean humans. You guys seem to live in a fantasy Hollywood war movie world where only the dirty Japs or evil Krauts mistreat and abuse prisoners. Face it; we've played just as dirty as any of our enemies - actually dirtier. It's part of the reason we hold the position we do now. And now, with one of the dirtiest fighting enemy we have ever faced, you want us to fight by Marquise of Queensberry Rules?

|11.15.05 @ 12:31PM|#

I feel sorry for you, your family, your friends and the people you work with, and I hope my rights are never at the mercy of you or anyone who listens to you.

Why the personal shot Ken? There are plenty of people on this board I disagree with, but I don't pity them, their families, their friends or their co-workers. I hold an opinion that differs with yours. I also hold many that probably dove tail quite nicely with your beliefs. If the cops suddenly start waterboarding crack dealers then I'll be right there with you expressing my outrage. I just don't think we're going to see that. The ACLU and good civil libertarians like you will be on the case.

However, I do hope that my life, my family's life, my friends' lives and the people I work with lives are never in the hands of someone as naive and squeamish as you.

|11.15.05 @ 2:50PM|#

|11.15.05 @ 6:04PM|#

You're way off on this, and I think it's partly because you don't understand the logic of compassion. I also don't think you recognize the importance and value of character.

...How do I say that without getting personal?

You're right. I don't understand the logic of showing compassion to those who would show us none.

As far as not recognizing the importance and value of character - I guess thats what I get for dropping out of Webelos.

|11.15.05 @ 7:19PM|#

An overemphasis on sports can bring this out in people. We only need so many professional athletes, and natural inequality eventually catches up with most of us. ...and it just doesn't seem fair.

Overbearing mothers can also ruin character--mothers, typically, don't care about what's right or wrong so long as their little boy's getting the best of whatever there is to get.

I don't know what Webelos is, but I probably wouldn't blame it on that. We get to be a certain age, and we are what we decide to be. I'll continue to encourage the American people to decide to be something better.

...Some of us decide to do what's in our best interest regardless of what other people are doing. ...amidst other irrelevant criteria. ...and that, among other things, is what I'm talking about when I talk about character.

|11.15.05 @ 8:32PM|#

ralphus, "Show me where I backed away from my arguments." When you made a recommendation about how our government should operate, then claimed that we shouldn't worry about the effects of those recommendations, because you don't actually have power to make the government operate that way.

Kevin Carson|11.15.05 @ 10:23PM|#

joe,

"our intentions"? If you mean the intentions of the pigs surrounding Bush, I suspect they're probably focused on maximizing their own power.

|11.15.05 @ 11:18PM|#

Ken:

Webelos are those lost souls between Cub Scouts and Eagle Scouts.

|11.15.05 @ 11:19PM|#

and they wobble, but don't fall down.

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