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|10.4.05 @ 4:05PM|#

This story is conspicuously absent from the main stream media. I wonder why Ted Koppel or Stone Phillips aren't reporting this.

theOneState|10.4.05 @ 4:13PM|#

Isn't Ted Koppel dead? Or, no...he's the one that got fired for using fake memos...

Seriously, this is a great story. Nicely written, too. I distinctly remember the Red Cross saying they coudln't go in b/c they were being told (by FEMA?) that it was too dangerous.

But there were really hundreds of guardsmen at the Dome? Were there others in the city we never heard about?

|10.4.05 @ 4:14PM|#

I'd like to see a report on one of the evening news shows about the woman with the clown paint. This sounds far more entertaining than all the horror story stuff the networks love to peddle--and they peddle it only because they're in the entertainment business and believe that people want horror.

Really, what was she thinking? Funny, and sweet. The stuff of good family entertainment. As an added bonus, it may actually be true! Wow!

|10.4.05 @ 4:27PM|#

"We are now into Week Two of elite news organizations' re-evaluation of the New Orleans horror stories they helped transmit to the world in the first seven days after Hurricane Katrina devastated the Gulf Coast."

Hold it right there, Captain Pajamas. The blogosphere went ever farther, even faster with these stories than the traditional media. Mote, plank, eye, old bean.

|10.4.05 @ 4:33PM|#

plank?

|10.4.05 @ 4:34PM|#

Some versions say "plank," some say "beam," I think I've even seen "log."

Windypundit|10.4.05 @ 4:34PM|#

I remember hearing about the hundreds of guardsmen the night before the hurricane. When the chaos (apparently) broke out later in the week, I wondered what had happened to them. Was the dome too big for them to secure? Were they poorly equipped for crowd control? Were they deployed somewhere else after the storm?

Now it looks like they were in the dome, doing their duty, and wondering what all the fuss was about.

|10.4.05 @ 4:42PM|#

(ooooh...plank...light over head goes on)

Plenty of blame for all media due here, I think. But here's a thought: should we not assign more blame for spreading rumors to those media which were, or should have been, better able to verify facts? NBC, Fox, CBS, etc, have vast resources, including (theoretically) large staffs of fact checkers. Bloggers have few, if any, such resources--at an individual level anyway. Just a thought.

|10.4.05 @ 4:56PM|#

Most media people find it hard to believe that order and peace will emerge automatically--without the help of politicians--from chaos.

Anarchy rules!
Red-lights suck!

|10.4.05 @ 4:58PM|#

Hi, everybody!

|10.4.05 @ 5:00PM|#

Sounds like the "Green Zone" reporting you get from Iraq.

Reporter standing on a hotel balcony with Baghdad behind him:

"We don't actually know first hand, but we hear shit is really bad. We would go and report, but it's like really dangerous out there so we're just going to go with hearsay and make some assumptions based on what we all know to be true. Back to you Tom."

Replace Iraqis with black folks and that lady in a clown suit with GIs building a school.

I'm not saying it's all peaches and cream over there. All I'm saying is that I don't trust the media assessment of that situation any more than I trust their Katrina coverage.

|10.4.05 @ 5:03PM|#

One of the reasons for Brown's tarring and feathering was his ignorance of the Superdome mayhem. Sometimes only our gut directs where to place trust

|10.4.05 @ 5:10PM|#

Wait a minute - the Guardsmen were in the Superdome the night before the storm? That can't possibly be true, since the Governor didn't raise a finger to activate the Guard for a full six and a half years after the levees burst. Or something.

Ruthless, what part of anarchy involves several hundred armed troops patrolling, shouting orders, and kicking people's asses when they need it?

|10.4.05 @ 5:11PM|#

The story here is that the msm was only as good as the bloggers. If they can't vet better than that, they are done.

This really does stink for the guardsmen, as ralphus points out. They took a lot of indirect fire over nothing.

"One of the reasons for Brown's tarring and feathering was his ignorance of the Superdome mayhem."

Yah. That occurred to me too. All that indignant "How could he not know what was really going on 3 days after the flood?" The guy is probably a tool, but that does seem unfair in retrospect.

|10.4.05 @ 5:12PM|#

I sense an upcoming book by Mr. Welch, drawn from all his writings on the horror-mongering.

If I am right in this guess, please be sure to get a picture of the clown lady, if she can be found.

And ask her, seriously, what was she thinking? (I'm still laughing about this.)

|10.4.05 @ 5:15PM|#

Hey joe, what channel is the blogosphere on?

|10.4.05 @ 5:29PM|#

And ask her, seriously, what was she thinking? (I'm still laughing about this.)

Maybe she thought, "I'm going to be in a place where there'll be a bunch of scared kids (and adults), and maybe I can distract them from the misery for a little while."

Sometimes people just do stuff without being asked or having the federal government mobilize them.

|10.4.05 @ 5:38PM|#

Isaac B,

Yes, I think there is a good chance that's exactly what she was thinking. (Which, if you think about it, means she was just planning to do her job.) If so, then that's all the more reason she deserves to have 15 minutes via national TV.

|10.4.05 @ 5:43PM|#

Yes, I think there is a good chance that's exactly what she was thinking. (Which, if you think about it, means she was just planning to do her job.) If so, then that's all the more reason she deserves to have 15 minutes via national TV.

national TV? Like anyone would see that. Get this woman on the blogosphere.

fyodor|10.4.05 @ 5:46PM|#

Hold it right there, Captain Pajamas. The blogosphere went ever farther, even faster etc, etc

Joe, so what? I believed these stories because I heard them on the radio (probably NPR) and read them in the newspaper.

|10.4.05 @ 5:48PM|#

"Wait a minute - the Guardsmen were in the Superdome the night before the storm? That can't possibly be true, since the Governor didn't raise a finger to activate the Guard for a full six and a half years after the levees burst. Or something." - joe

So it IS the state and locals job after all?

(joe, once again, tries to have it both ways... )

It seems to me that now is the wrong time to start claiming that there was a good state and local response in the first 24-72 hours of the emergency (after which they could reasonably expect federal assistance). Especially considering that it's clear there wasn't a competent response, based on the body count alone.

I'd say the feds are starting to look more and more like they did the right thing, and picked up what was dropped by the state and local folks. Not to mention that many state governors, regardless of party affiliation - Louisiana's being an obvious exception, I'd bet - is saying that initial response is a state responsibility.

Govs to Bush: Relief our job

By Bill Nichols and Richard Benedetto, USA TODAY
WASHINGTON � There is almost no support among the nation's governors for President Bush's suggestion that the Pentagon could take the lead in responding to catastrophic natural disasters, a USA TODAY survey has found.

Of the 38 governors who responded to a request for reaction to Bush's comments, only two backed the idea: Republicans Mitt Romney of Massachusetts and Tim Pawlenty of Minnesota.

Half the state chief executives said they were opposed or had reservations, including Florida Gov. Jeb Bush, the president's brother. Eleven wanted more details before taking a position, and 12 did not respond.

Posted 10/2/2005 11:50 PM

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Govs to Bush: Relief our job
By Bill Nichols and Richard Benedetto, USA TODAY
WASHINGTON � There is almost no support among the nation's governors for President Bush's suggestion that the Pentagon could take the lead in responding to catastrophic natural disasters, a USA TODAY survey has found.
Of the 38 governors who responded to a request for reaction to Bush's comments, only two backed the idea: Republicans Mitt Romney of Massachusetts and Tim Pawlenty of Minnesota.

Half the state chief executives said they were opposed or had reservations, including Florida Gov. Jeb Bush, the president's brother. Eleven wanted more details before taking a position, and 12 did not respond.

Most governors who opposed the suggestion said they would resist any effort by Washington to usurp state control of disaster relief, even in a devastating event like Hurricane Katrina, in which more than 1,100 people died.

"Whether a governor is a Republican or Democrat, I would expect the response would be, 'Hell no,' " said Michigan Gov. Jennifer Granholm, a Democrat.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-10-02-gov-survey_x.htm

|10.4.05 @ 5:51PM|#

"Wait a minute - the Guardsmen were in the Superdome the night before the storm? That can't possibly be true, since the Governor didn't raise a finger to activate the Guard for a full six and a half years after the levees burst. Or something." - joe

So it IS the state and locals job after all?

(joe, once again, tries to have it both ways... )

It seems to me that now is the wrong time to start claiming that there was a good state and local response in the first 24-72 hours of the emergency (after which they could reasonably expect federal assistance). Especially considering that it's clear there wasn't a competent response, based on the body count alone.

I'd say the feds are starting to look more and more like they did the right thing, and picked up what was dropped by the state and local folks. Not to mention that many state governors, regardless of party affiliation - Louisiana's being an obvious exception, I'd bet - is saying that initial response is a state responsibility.

Govs to Bush: Relief our job

By Bill Nichols and Richard Benedetto, USA TODAY
WASHINGTON ? There is almost no support among the nation's governors for President Bush's suggestion that the Pentagon could take the lead in responding to catastrophic natural disasters, a USA TODAY survey has found.

Of the 38 governors who responded to a request for reaction to Bush's comments, only two backed the idea: Republicans Mitt Romney of Massachusetts and Tim Pawlenty of Minnesota.

Half the state chief executives said they were opposed or had reservations, including Florida Gov. Jeb Bush, the president's brother. Eleven wanted more details before taking a position, and 12 did not respond.

(should have previewed...)

theOneState|10.4.05 @ 5:54PM|#

The thing is, w/ bloggers, you got a fair amount of "it's hard to believe this is true" and "I haven't seen this confirmed" and "I've heard the same thing but I havne't been able to confirm it anywhere." That creates a little necessary skepticism. There was no such followup by the MSM.

So I think the blogs outperformed the MSM. (Not that they don't need the MSM, but you would have been better off reading a selection of blogs and comments than reading your daily newspaper directly.)

Though I can't understand why that CNN chick and the Fox guy couldn't find a Guardsman early on.

|10.4.05 @ 6:04PM|#

I'm sure none of the people I talked to following the news of rampant violence will even notice these stories about false reports and rumors.

I've said in previous posts on this topic that I think there was some bigotry involved in the assessment of the situation in New Orleans. I still believe that, although I also believe there were several other things that contributed to the misinformation. I think people hear what they want to hear and move on. Sad, but true most of the time. In this case, it was the affirmation of how poor, black people would act in an environment of complete anarchy. Even though that was not what was going on, people with bigoted attitudes believed the news because they "knew that would happen". I say all this because I personally know people who have done exactly that.

I hope the Guardsmen and the clown lady get recognition and the media outlets that did all the boo-hoo reporting go on a guilt trip of re-reporting their own mistakes.

|10.4.05 @ 6:16PM|#

Now that would be something. A talking head saying "We screwed tht pooch"

|10.4.05 @ 6:22PM|#

This article, from a Objectivist web site, was making the rounds & made it into my in-box. It was disgusting when I first read it & is even more so now:

http://tiadaily.com/php-bin/news/showArticle.php?id=1026

|10.4.05 @ 6:24PM|#

or a political hack saying, "I may have been a little rash."

|10.4.05 @ 6:25PM|#

I think the more interesting question that no one seems to be asking is why National Guardsmen were apparently actively lying to reporters. Pace the "Hooray for blogs, founts of all truth and wisdom!" crowd, the "MSM" didn't just come up with the Convention Center deaths story all by themselves. The Times-Picayune specifically identified the Guardsmen who provided the information:

Guardsman Mikel Brooks
Guardsman Phillip Thompson

See excerpt including their names here: www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001054816

Are these men total fabrications of the reporter? (Which I haven't heard anyone claim.) If not, why were they lying about the number and identity of the victims?

|10.4.05 @ 6:55PM|#

The Guardsmen in that article pointed out a few bodies, which would not be unexpected in a tragedy of this magnitude, and attached some hearsay to it. Isn't this pretty standard for urban legends? Take a kernel of truth & some half-reliable sources & explode it into something else entirely?

Clearly, the New Orleans mayor has a lot to answer for. I'd blame a lot of this on bigotry, but if he's out there yammering on about these things, then everybody has a seemingly reliable source for believing it. Of course, he's all over the news channels - they love him. I guess he gives them what they want. He'll probably get reelected, too.

Kebko

|10.4.05 @ 7:23PM|#

As far as I can tell, the reasons for the misinformation, and the reaction to it, are the result of several different factors working together. Yes, there was bigotry regarding poor blacks. There was the desire by the Media for a sensational tradgedy. There was rumor mongering at ground zero. There was political grandstanding and manipulation by the Mayor and others. There was also the genuine chaos and misfortune of the actual disaster, too. I'm just glad that none of the really bad stuff was true.

|10.4.05 @ 7:30PM|#

I'm just waiting for someone to claim that it really WAS that bad, and that Matt Welch and "Major Ed Bush, public affairs officer for the Louisiana National Guard" are all in on it, trying to make it look not as bad as it really was...

|10.4.05 @ 7:51PM|#

"Hey joe, what channel is the blogosphere on?"

Internets? What's the channel for that internet? LOL.

"One of the reasons for Brown's tarring and feathering was his ignorance of the Superdome mayhem." "joe, once again, tries to have it both ways..."

I called this a week ago - the Bushbot talking point will be to deliberately confuse the lack of food, water, medical attention, and rescue with the gory stories about rampaging negroes. See, now that the latter have been disproven, they figure they can take the heat off of the pathetic emergency response by pretending that the former never happened either.

"I'd say the feds are starting to look more and more like they did the right thing, and picked up what was dropped by the state and local folks." Uh, yeah, I'd say the presence of STATE National Guardsmen in the refuge site, on the governor's orders, waiting for days and days along with the displaced people for FEMA to show up demonstrates a dropped ball by the locals, and a competant, swift reponse by the feds. Again, LOL.

|10.4.05 @ 7:54PM|#

Kebko, SR,

I don't think it's at all unusual for people on the ground, who don't have an operative communications system among themselves, to pick up on rumors and repeat them. It's not what you'd call "good discipline," and the mayor of the city, of all people, should certainly know better than to credence and repeat information without proof. But at the same time, I can cut those trying to cope through the chaos of what was an alien world some slack. It seems like an all-too-human, eternal failing.

|10.4.05 @ 7:59PM|#

Regarding the "Clown Lady" and "what was she thinking?"
Yes, I think she was just doing what she thoght was her job. It takes a special kind of soul to be a clown.

|10.4.05 @ 7:59PM|#

"I'm just waiting for someone to claim that it really WAS that bad..."

Yes, I'm sure you are. And the first time you read a story from someone claiming that the flooding, hunger, thirst, and abandonment of the refugees is being downplayed, I'm sure you will accuse "liberals of trying to have it both ways" by claiming that those stories were downplayed, while stories about your favorite rampaging negroes were hyped. Bushbots are so predictable.

|10.4.05 @ 9:35PM|#

joe:

To help me form a clear assessment of your position, what elements do you see as clearly the responsibility of the local govt and what elements do you see as the responsibility of FEMA?

From this: "flooding, hunger, thirst, and abandonment of the refugees is being downplayed" it kind of sounds like your view is that security should have resided with the locals, but for everything else the feds should have been the prime movers. Is that a fair representation of your position?

|10.4.05 @ 9:53PM|#

No, Jason, I am not arguing for a clear division of labor along those lines. The feds are supposed to provide a security presence as needed - which they did with the 82nd Airborn. Likewise, the locals should contribute what they can to a broad range of larger efforts.

What I was saying was that, in the particular circumstance that developed, with the levees breaking and the refuge site isolated and overwhelmed, a desperate rescue and resupply requirement occurring, and the local response capacity more or less washed out, it was clear that the cavalry needed to rush into the breach. And while in some ways, the feds' response was great, there were some serious, gaping flaws, from certian operations of FEMA and DHS in particular. They didn't do a good job preparing and prepositioning, they didn't do a good job understanding what was happening and what their needs were, and they didn't do a good job getting their act together and getting aid in.

I don't buy into the "Louisiana failed" excuse as a defense of the federal failure, because FEMA and the federal government as a whole are supposed to be playing backup for when a catastrophe overwhelms the locals' capacity.

|10.4.05 @ 10:49PM|#

Joe,
He who can look into the hearts of mortals and see their evil (wrongly)
The point of my comments is simply, many Gods and Godesses launch on DUH. False impressions are labled as truth and we meere mortals are tossed about. Rarely do the Most High return to admit or rectify their errors.

|10.5.05 @ 1:11AM|#

Great article, Matt!

Now that the stories of the collapse of civil society are being disproven, I am waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Are the stories we heard about various elements of government interfering and making things worse being varified as true? In particular, I am thinking of the story of the group trying to leave the city led by the EMT conventioneers. The one that was stopped at gun point by cops, set up a functional camp, and then forcibly dispersed by other cops.

|10.5.05 @ 7:06AM|#

From time to time, I criticize Reason writers, and the media in general, for doing too much op-ed and not enough journalism. Cathy Young's guesses about what the 7/7 hijacker was thinking, when there was a videotape out there with the answers on it, is the classic example of this. That said, this here is some nice journalism Mr. Welch. It took time and effort, but the payoff was worth it in the end.

btw, I don't think anyone has brought it up, but the interviewed Guardsman might be wrong when he says that some "rescuers" did not start the rumor about helicopters being shot at. I still suspect the rescue efforts could have been better, helicopter aspects included. I would not be surprised at all if one or more embarrassed "rescuers" made up the self-serving rumor to take off some heat in the heat of the moment (but off-the-record, of course). The Guardsman might have no way of knowing if his co-rescuers acted without integrity. Even if he does know some bad facts, I doubt he would be allowed to admit the same in press absent grave damage to his career.

Still waiting on official bodycount, too (and any appropriate journalistic inquiry into the veracity of the official number). Paging Ms. Young!

|10.5.05 @ 9:35AM|#

Some of you have already addressed this subtler side of the issue. Many of the "talking heads" were really pushing this racism angle in NO and it's interesting to note that post-Katrina there was all of this talk of racism regarding the response from the gov. This same media was reporting all kinds of rumours as "fact" wink-wink and, as noted by Senor Welch, they were pretty much bullshit. Now that all of those stories about raped and murdered children and piled bodies weren't true it makes one wonder if the great folks who shouted out racism weren't practicing that sublter racism. You know what I mean. "We have no confirmation that these stories are true but because deep down we believe them coloureds are just a step above the monkeys they probably are so here you go people. Death. Child-rape. Murder. Come and get it! Negroes on a rampage!" Never stated but always implied. Geez. The shit people do to push their political agenda. Right AND, especially, Left.
If you'll excuse me I need to cleanse myself of this crap.
EiF

|10.5.05 @ 9:47AM|#

"The media" equals "left." Got it.

|10.5.05 @ 9:54AM|#

Fluid,

As I recall, there was relatively little noise made from the left about looting and criminal gangs running amuck. The left was up in arms about the lack of resuce and relief. The right was pushing the rampaging negroes story, and complaining about the incompetance of Governor Blanco, who was alleged not to have sent the National Guard in early enough. If anything, the left was downplaying the stories about looting and violence - remember the hue and cry over the two pictures on Wonkette, where the white people had "found supplies" and the black kid was looting?

The media, of course, was repeating both of these lines.

So no, I don't think conflating the stories about hunder, thirst, filth, and medical emergencies (pushed by the left, proven true) with those about rampaging negroes (pushed by the right, proven false) captures the reality of how race influenced the reporting.

|10.5.05 @ 10:12AM|#

OK, "proven mostly false" would have been better - there have been confirmed episodes of looting and an attack on a police station. Still, they were vastly exaggerated.

|10.5.05 @ 10:41AM|#

"I don't buy into the "Louisiana failed" excuse as a defense of the federal failure, because FEMA and the federal government as a whole are supposed to be playing backup for when a catastrophe overwhelms the locals' capacity."

I don't disagree with this assessment. So, we are both judging the fed response with an acknowledgement that they are the backup plan. We must be diverging on what we see as a reasonable timeframe for the backups to execute in the face of a complete meltdown by the first string.

|10.5.05 @ 10:54AM|#

First, Jason, a complete meltdown by the first string should have been anticipated. "Nobody foresaw the levees collapsing" my ass. They ran the simulations. They knew what a major hurricaine hitting the city would do. The fact that the DHS was taken by surprise, and only started to organize a large scale response days after the storm hit, is very damning.

Second, don't forget the Convention Center, and Michael Chertoff's ignorance and denial about the facts - barking at the NPR reporter for spreading rumors after being told about the people stranded there.

|10.5.05 @ 10:56AM|#

That was a great read. I can't help but wonder if the woman in clown gear was anyone I know (I used to be a stiltwalker in NOLA). If you find out her name, or anything about her, you should put up a new H&R post about it..

|10.5.05 @ 12:17PM|#

"Uh, yeah, I'd say the presence of STATE National Guardsmen in the refuge site, on the governor's orders, waiting for days and days along with the displaced people for FEMA to show up demonstrates a dropped ball by the locals, and a competant, swift reponse by the feds. Again, LOL." - joe

So the conditions in the Superdome were or were not an example of adequate response after all? The evacuation plan was sound and soundly executed by the locals and didn't result in roughly 1,000 dead at last count? Make up your mind.

Jason Ligon says it best: "we are both judging the fed response with an acknowledgement that they are the backup plan. We must be diverging on what we see as a reasonable timeframe for the backups to execute in the face of a complete meltdown by the first string."

"it was clear that the cavalry needed to rush into the breach." - joe

Ok, how fast do you think they can get there, and how fast do you think they SHOULD get there? The logistical limitations of bringing the Feds in is the reason most plans call for 24-72 hours of the locals handling it. Of course, you seem to have the logistics all figured out, so let's hear it.

"Yes, I'm sure you are. And the first time you read a story from someone claiming that the flooding, hunger, thirst, and abandonment of the refugees is being downplayed, I'm sure you will accuse 'liberals of trying to have it both ways' by claiming that those stories were downplayed, while stories about your favorite rampaging negroes were hyped. Bushbots are so predictable." - joe

The only one reading off of talking points here is you, so don't call me a Bushbot. I find it insulting, kind of like you would if I started calling you a Stalinist. Stop ascribing stances to me that I haven't espoused. Maybe if you were reading and responding to me, rather than to some construct of me and the typical "Bushbot" that only exists in your head...

FYI, I didn't say liberals - I said "joe." I was referring to you specifically, but I can see how, since you seem to be singing from the same sheet so faithfully, you might conflate the two.

Of course, I'm sure it makes you feel better to get the "Us vs. Them" team thing going, especially since I don't have a team. It's just me, but I figure I'm better off not relying on the hive mind to supply my opinions for me. Maybe you should try it.

|10.6.05 @ 11:41AM|#

flailing rob,

"So the conditions in the Superdome were or were not an example of adequate response after all?"

If you weren't trying so desperately to blur obvious distinctions, this would be an easy question for even you. The presence of the National Guard is evidence of an adequate security response. The days and days of deprivation without relief or rescue is evidence of an inadequate relief response.

"The logistical limitations of bringing the Feds in is the reason most plans call for 24-72 hours of the locals handling it." A 72 hour response would have been nice. People died of thirst at the Convention Center.

"Of course, you seem to have the logistics all figured out, so let's hear it." We pay people for that, and they ran around and got in each others way for days before getting their act together.

And in case you haven't noticed, it's not just partisan Democrats who've noticed this failure.

|10.6.05 @ 3:31PM|#

"The presence of the National Guard is evidence of an adequate security response. The days and days of deprivation without relief or rescue is evidence of an inadequate relief response." - joe

Initial relief has been shown to be the state and local gov't. So this is nonsense on your part.

"A 72 hour response would have been nice. People died of thirst at the Convention Center." - joe

How about some citations that show a timeline...

"We pay people for that, and they ran around and got in each others way for days before getting their act together." - joe

Yep, your expert opinion on this is all the proof that's needed right? Wrong. Got something vaguely supporting these assertions?

"And in case you haven't noticed, it's not just partisan Democrats who've noticed this failure." - joe

No, but I've noticed that you only seem to have condemnation for the other side of the aisle. That's called hypocrisy.

moneyrunner|10.6.05 @ 8:39PM|#

So joe now claims that the national guardsmen at the dome showed the locals did their job. The rest is up to the feds. I wonder ? is there any way of finding out what joe thought of the local response before we found out that the guard was at the Dome? I honestly don't know, but I am curious.

The issue however, is not to rehash the question of who bungled: the locals or the feds. The question is why the MSM did such a lousy job of separating fact from fiction.

And why did they fixate on a theme that said, in plain language, the Bush administration did not respond to the Katrina disaster in New Orleans because the victims were poor blacks? Where did that come from? Is this the Louis Farrakhan school of reporting? Or Charlie Rangel who claimed that blue suits were the modern day dress of the KKK?

Joe, you seem to be connected. You have all the phrases down pat. Give us the MSM spin.

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theOneState|10.4.05 @ 4:13PM|#

Windypundit|10.4.05 @ 4:34PM|#

fyodor|10.4.05 @ 5:46PM|#

theOneState|10.4.05 @ 5:54PM|#

moneyrunner|10.6.05 @ 8:39PM|#

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