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A Simple Plan
Get people to higher ground and have the feds and the state airlift supplies to them -- that was the plan, man.
—New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin
Oy. Was anyone, at any level of this operation, not inept? I still think what I said a few days ago is right: We ought to expect that when a major catastrophe renders a locality incapable of providing the basic civil order that is supposed to be government's primary task, it may be necessary for the feds to temporarily step into the vacuum. But I hope there's some way to do that without increasing (quite so much) the likelihood of a vacuum in the first place.
|9.7.05 @ 1:31PM|#
So, Sanchez, what is wrong with that plan? Remember, you picked
a one-sentence summary from some other fingerwagger's opinion
piece. And this was spoken by an exhausted man trying to do all he
can to save his home.
Maybe you would like to see the complete, ridiculous, detailed
plan? Email the Mayor's office. He'll send you a copy. When he gets
to it.
The Lonewacko Blog|9.7.05 @ 1:46PM|#
Back on June 9, 2005, the
Orleans Parish School Board was discussing getting their
schoolbuses to higher ground. If anyone can find out what
became of that plan, leave a comment.
Houma was mentioned there, and also in
Aug. 30's tale of an apparently partially failed plan to use
schoolbuses to evacuate those Metarie.
Dave W.|9.7.05 @ 1:46PM|#
If this incentive-for-irresponsibility thing is really a big
concern, then NO is probably not the best example to use. Certainly
there has been extensive fed involvement in much smaller
catastrophes. We got 10,000 dead here. Not the best occasion to
flex your Freakonomical muscles.
On the other hand, Nagin seems to be admitting that getting ppl to
high ground was his responsibility. Unless, I am missing something,
the short quote is more of a shocking admission of his failed
responsibility than a stinging indictment of state / fed lapses
once the ppl were delivered to the high ground. (Although it seems
to be both things -- and it *should* be).
|9.7.05 @ 1:46PM|#
The reason people ignore the possibility of a catastrophe has
nothing to do with FEMA, Julian.
People ignore the possibility of catastrophe so they can get out of
bed and get through the day without having a breakdown. The river
could rise! A plane could fall out of the sky!
AAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!
The moral hazard, cost/benefit analysis process is of limited value
here. It's the old problem of ignoring human nature and projecting
rational profit machines into their brains.
R C Dean|9.7.05 @ 1:54PM|#
The shocking thing about Nagin's quote is that he is admitting
that his administration intentionally abdicated responsibility for
food, water, sanitation, and public safety, even for those they
evacuated.
And he even lets you know why - because he could lay the cost of
providing these basic services off on someone else.
Even though FEMA is always very clear withe everyone that federal
help is 72 - 96 hours away.
So Nagin is admitting, right out in public, that the holocaust that
happened in New Orleans happened because he planned it that way,
knowing that federal help would be days away.
What a despicable man.
tomWright|9.7.05 @ 2:01PM|#
"...without increasing (quite so much) the likelihood of a
vacuum in the first place."
Well, that IS the problem, eh?
As soon as 'they' know someone else will pick up the slack, 'they'
will stop pulling their own weight. Happens all the time.
I wonder if that was in Nagin's mind as he sat there admiring all
the nice big yellow boats in what quickly changed from the the
school motorpool to the school marina. He figured that if he sat
there, the state or the feds would bail him out. Literally.
Nero fiddled while Rome burned,
what was Nagin doing while New Orleans drowned?
Nagin = Nero
Tom
|9.7.05 @ 2:07PM|#
Don't bad mouth the mayor. Sat. and Sun. were weekend days. He had to check into the Hyatt and secure his limo. He couldn't move those busses by himself on Sunday evening. Monday was a bad weather day. But Tueseday, he was ready to kick butt.
|9.7.05 @ 2:08PM|#
Tom
Equating Nagin to Nero is completely unfair to the late emperor.
Nero was 50 miles away when Rome caught fire; he didn't even know
the city was burning until it was all over.
There was absolutely nothing Nero could have done. Nagin, on the
other hand...
|9.7.05 @ 2:11PM|#
Wow, exactly as the White House directed, the entire right half
of the country is going Swift Boat on the mayor and governor.
But especially the mayor. Oh, yeah.
|9.7.05 @ 2:11PM|#
It doesn't strike me that Nagin is "admitting" anything. He been
doing what he could, since he was elected. I imagine he feels
responsible, and also abandoned, and many other things. It's easy
to read more into a sentence than was ever there.
Wacko: Look into the budget and managment problems of the Orleans
Parish Schools. They were having trouble keeping the buses rolling
for regular school duty. From your link, it looks like somebody had
a good idea that was working its way through bureaucracy. The
school might have got their fuel and tires supported by some
disaster fund, but whoever was in charge of the disaster fund
wouldn't hand over the money until the schools showed that it
wouldn't get lost (like their payroll records did recently).
joe: I think you're right on. That's why, even if the buses were
serviceable, not too many would have climbed aboard.
|9.7.05 @ 2:11PM|#
joe:
I disagree. You can't take the moral hazard out of the equation
like that. Another way of looking at it is why people felt they
could afford to put it completely out of their heads.
If people lived in an environment where every underinsured victim
of Andrew were left to their own devices and they still didn't act,
I'd find your argument more persuasive.
Where I agree is that people are bad statisticians. They are likely
to undervalue risk reducing measures out of an inappropriate
understanding of the risks involved.
|9.7.05 @ 2:12PM|#
People ignore the possibility of catastrophe so they can get
out of bed and get through the day without having a breakdown. The
river could rise! A plane could fall out of the sky!
AAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!
The moral hazard, cost/benefit analysis process is of limited value
here. It's the old problem of ignoring human nature and projecting
rational profit machines into their brains.
joe, if you're going to take that tack, what's the no point in
drafting catastrophe reaction plans, because to do so would be
like, such a downer man, why you gotta be so negative all the time?
By that line of reasoning, we should be happy that anyone managed
to escape the maelstrom at all.
In any event, I think it's worth noting your glossing over the key
difference of "preparing for the worst while hoping for the best",
the ideal view to take (to my diseased imagination, anyway), and
that of "ignoring all possibility of catastrophe" as if to do so
would be to sow the seeds of the very disaster one seeks to avoid.
Yea, if anyone here is ignoring human nature, I'd say its you and
your suggestion that planning for a (reasonably) orderly evacuation
of a low-lying city in the path of a hurricane is somehow too much
strain for the average human to bear. It's amazing anyone can
manage the utter agony of buying insurance, at that rate.
|9.7.05 @ 2:13PM|#
joe
It's just to provide balance for all the lefties who blame Bush for
everything.
|9.7.05 @ 2:20PM|#
While y'all pile on Nagin, take a moment to look at his record
as Mayor. He's the least corrupt Mayor the city has had in all your
lifetimes (he might actually be not corrupt at all). He's been
working to bring the city into the 20th, and in some cases the 21st
Century.
Before Katrina, with his reelection on the horizon, there were no
challengers. He's got opponents, for sure, but none thought that
they had a chance of beating him, given his record and popularity.
Now, who knows...?
|9.7.05 @ 2:22PM|#
To be fair to joe, I think he was merely saying that your
average person, not the government, ignores, or underevaluates risk
to get through the day.
You'd have to do similar if you lived in San Francisco...one of the
reasons, I tell myself, why I haven't moved there yet.
|9.7.05 @ 2:23PM|#
f"joe, if you're going to take that tack, what's the no point in
drafting catastrophe reaction plans, because to do so would be
like, such a downer man, why you gotta be so negative all the
time?"
No, rafuzo, it's an argument that such plans are not going to be
drafted by individuals trying to go about their lives who have a
million other, more immediate things to worry about. It's an
argument for putting the responsibility for those things into the
hands of people who will actually make that their first and
foremost priority.
BTW, homeowners and businessowners are required to have insurance
in order to close on their property.
|9.7.05 @ 2:27PM|#
I had a thought (a first this month!): instead of comparing the
New Orleans mayor's performance to the President's, shouldn't we
compare it to the performance of mayors from other cities, like
Gulfport & Biloxi for instance? Honestly, I have no idea how
they performed because I've heard so little about them.
-- And before anyone says they're not comparable because NO has its
own unique set of difficulties, I would remind you that every city
has its unique set of difficulties (and advantages); it's a mayor's
job to deal with them. --
MP|9.7.05 @ 2:40PM|#
BTW, homeowners and businessowners are required to have
insurance in order to close on their property.
Only if they have a mortgage. This is a bank requirement, not a
legal requirement.
|9.7.05 @ 2:40PM|#
JMoore,
How about also instead of continuously complaining about how slow
FEMA was to react to Katrina, compare FEMA's reaction in past major
hurricanes. I've heard a 72 to 96 hours window thrown about, but I
haven't found anything to back that up.
|9.7.05 @ 2:40PM|#
Wow, exactly as the White House directed, the entire right
half of the country is going Swift Boat on the mayor and
governor.
Didn't you get the official memo, joe?
Seriously, though, are you claiming them to be blameless in this
affair? At this point trying to differentiate who gets the lion's
share of the blame seems foolish, as it appears that the government
at every level just plain fucked up and that includes the mayor and
governor. Maybe I missed it, but I didn't think most people around
here absolved FEMA and Bush for their part.
|9.7.05 @ 2:40PM|#
Wow, exactly as the White House directed, the entire right
half of the country is going Swift Boat on the mayor and
governor.
Didn't you get the official memo, joe?
Seriously, though, are you claiming them to be blameless in this
affair? At this point trying to differentiate who gets the lion's
share of the blame seems foolish, as it appears that the government
at every level just plain fucked up and that includes the mayor and
governor. Maybe I missed it, but I didn't think most people around
here absolved FEMA and Bush for their part.
|9.7.05 @ 2:40PM|#
JMoore, "It's just to provide balance for all the lefties who
blame Bush for everything."
Maybe you should worry less about balance and more about
truth.
"And before anyone says they're not comparable because NO has its
own unique set of difficulties, I would remind you that every city
has its unique set of difficulties (and advantages); it's a mayor's
job to deal with them." Well, yes, but that doesn't get rid of the
apples to oranges problem. The unique set of difficulties facing
Gulfport's mayor are not just different; they are much less severe
- even as bad as they are.
|9.7.05 @ 2:41PM|#
No, rafuzo, it's an argument that such plans are not going
to be drafted by individuals trying to go about their lives who
have a million other, more immediate things to worry about. It's an
argument for putting the responsibility for those things into the
hands of people who will actually make that their first and
foremost priority.
Fair enough. But I don't see what that has to do with the point
Julian was trying make, that this catastrophe was mishandled from
top to bottom. The one thing they're all doing flawlessly is
passing the buck back and forth between each other.
|9.7.05 @ 2:59PM|#
joe
I do worry about truth. Here it is: Nagin's constituency is New
Orleans. The governor's constituency is Louisiana. Bush's
constituency is the entire USA. Who bears the greatest
responsibility for protecting the people of New Orleans? Put it
another way: whose only job--ONLY job--is to provide for the safety
of the people of New Orleans?
And, as was pointed out above, most of those of us who want to
crucify Nagin do not grant absolution to Bush & FEMA either.
There will probably be plenty of crosses made in the near future,
but Nagin should the first to face Pilate.
drf|9.7.05 @ 3:01PM|#
What you're all forgetting:
no evacuation plan would work, as dem suth'rn'rz are against forced
bussing.
(glug glug)
|9.7.05 @ 3:06PM|#
Okay, alternate history time....
August 28. FEMA chief Michael "Brownie" Brown announces that the
local plan for the mandatory evacuation is completely inadequate
for the threat New Orleans faces. In order to save the tens of
thousands who are not getting in cars and driving out of town, he
pushes to get Bush to declare martial law. The state and city
capitulate and "ask" for FEMA to take responsibility.
Brown federalizes all city buses, school buses, and private buses
not actively being used for evacuation. He federalizes the
Louisiana National Guard and hurries them to the New Orleans area
to help with evacuation. Ambulances from a four state area are
brought in for the difficult cases. Everyone who wants to leave can
leave. Those who don't want to leave are allowed to remain with the
warning that a curfew will be imposed and the streets will be
patrolled. The Superdome is set up as an official response locale
for the federal forces, but no evacuees remain there.
August 29. Hurricane Katrina takes a hard right turn and loses
significant power as it skirts the coast and hits Pensacola at
category 3. New Orleans gets 5 inches of rain and no real damage.
Twelve people taking advantage of the dispopulation of the city to
commit armed break-ins are shot and killed by police and national
guard.
Discuss the media reaction. Note that in this alternate history
Bush&Co. can point to the alternate alternate history where the
feds did nothing before the storm and the hurricane did hit,
swamped the levees, and drowned thousands in their homes.
|9.7.05 @ 3:06PM|#
joe
I do worry about truth. Here it is: Nagin's constituency is New
Orleans. The governor's constituency is Louisiana. Bush's
constituency is the entire USA. Who bears the greatest
responsibility for protecting the people of New Orleans? Put it
another way: whose only job--ONLY job--is to provide for the safety
of the people of New Orleans?
And, as was pointed out above, most of those of us who want to
crucify Nagin do not grant absolution to Bush & FEMA either.
There will probably be plenty of crosses made in the near future,
but Nagin should the first to face Pilate.
[if this double posts, my apologies...having some trouble
today]
|9.7.05 @ 4:38PM|#
Anyone wanna bet that once the $2K debit cards start going out, there will be twice as many "refugees" than previously estimated?
|9.7.05 @ 4:43PM|#
"Seriously, though, are you claiming them to be blameless in
this affair?"
Seriously, though, are you trying to change the subject?
Stretch, I'm not making any claims about their performance. I don't
know.
|9.7.05 @ 4:47PM|#
JMoore,
"Nagin's constituency is New Orleans. The governor's constituency
is Louisiana. Bush's constituency is the entire USA. Who bears the
greatest responsibility for protecting the people of New
Orleans?"
That depends. Different levels of government have different degrees
of responsibility for different problems.
The New Orleans municipal government, for example, has absolutely
no responsibility for repelling an armed incursion by a foreign
military.
The federal government bears no responsibility for confirming that
homes built in the city limits have adequately sized floor
joists.
For the issue at hand, the complete and utter failure of the
emergency management operations once the levees broke, the
responsibility is primarily FEMA's, as it states on that agency's
web page, as I quoted yesterday.
|9.7.05 @ 4:49PM|#
As you consider the "alternate history" described above, it may
be useful to have the actual history at your fingertips.
http://www.thinkprogress.org/katrina-timeline
|9.7.05 @ 4:53PM|#
Its interesting that the very same people who have a stroke at
the thought of the FBI reading their library records are now
shocked that Bush did not completely disregard the laws regarding
federal and state responsiblity as well as the use of the military
for civilian law enforcement and send in the 82nd Airborne on
Sunday regardless of what Louisianna's elected officials had to say
about the matter. The fact is that for better or for worse,
disaster relief is primarily a state and local responsibility. All
of the FEMA plans call for the locals to be able to handle the
situation for anywhere from 72 to 96 hours before the feds
arrive.
Federalism goes both ways. States are free to have the government
they choose for better or worse. I fail to see how the fact that
the people of the State of Louisianna have managed over the last
two hundred years to consistently elect the worst state and local
governments this side of Nirobi is my problem.
|9.7.05 @ 5:02PM|#
Okay, alternate history time....
When you're done fantasizing, get back to the real world. This was
a fuckup at every level, and despite the administration's interest
in SwiftBoating responsibility to the locals it's the feds who are
ultimately responsible.
These facts are irrefutable:
1) On Saturday Aug. 26, two days before the storm made landfall,
the governor of Louisiana asked the federal government to declare a
state of emergency in Louisiana.
2) On Sunday the 27th, President Bush signed that declaration, in
which Gov. Blanco specifically stated that local and state
officials were not equipped to handle the situation without federal
assistance:
"Pursuant to 44 CFR � 206.35, I have determined that this incident
is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond
the capabilities of the State and affected local governments, and
that supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives,
protect property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert
the threat of a disaster."
3) On Sunday, Aug. 27, President Bush signed the disaster
declaration, directing FEMA "to coordinate all disaster relief
efforts" and "provide appropriate assistance for required emergency
measures, authorized under Title V of the Stafford Act, to save
lives, protect property and public health and safety, or to lessen
or avert the threat of a catastrophe."
Text above is taken directly from the Press Release issued by the
White House on Sunday.
4) Days later, as people who weren't killed by the storm were dying
from exposure and lack of critical medical and food supplies, FEMA
was still turning away would-be rescuers with provisions and a
desire to help.
Yes, the locals were poorly prepared and poorly equipped to handle
the disaster. Yes, there's plenty of blame to go around.
But the fact is, they asked for help on SATURDAY, placed themselves
under federal control on SUNDAY and then waited helplessly for FIVE
DAYS while FEMA sat around with its thumb up its ass, and the
President did a low flyover in Air Force One on his way home from
vacation, then went over to Trent Lott's to reassure the senator
that his mansion would be rebuilt.
I have no political dog in this hunt. I loathe Nancy Pelosi and the
jackasses on the left as much as I do Rick Santorum and the
jackasses on the right.
So I'm not making a political statement when I say Bush and his
team fucked up. Or that he'd be a much better leader -- and seem
much more human -- if he owned up to the mistakes and set about
correcting them rather than unleashing the dogs to blame the
locals...
|9.7.05 @ 5:08PM|#
joe,
Did you read any of the supporting documents behind the timeline
you posted? For example, the in asking for the president to declare
a state of emergency stated: "I have determined that this incident
is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond
the capabilities of the State and affected local governments, and
that supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives,
protect property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert
the threat of a disaster. I am specifically requesting emergency
protective measures, direct Federal Assistance, Individual and
Household Program (IHP) assistance, Special Needs Program
assistance, and debris removal." She was requesting funds and help
removing debris. Was there a request somewhere that I can't find to
help in evacuation?
|9.7.05 @ 5:09PM|#
Mark,
FEMA was in over its head and has been broke for years. That is a
bi-partisian scandal. In addition, the Department of Homeland
Security is a disasterous bureaocracy that has focused too much on
terrorism at the expense of responding to natural disasters. You
are correct that blame is to be apportioned all around, much of it
on Congress, who has oversight over these bureaocracies but refuses
to ever use it until its too late.
That said, the City of New Orleans and the State of Louisianna had
a dry run for this event in 1998 and in 2004 with Hurricanes
Georges and Ivan. Both times, the evacuation plans were revealed to
be woefully inadaquate. The state and local officials did
absolutely nothing to fix these problems. I don't think the fact
that they bothered to throw themselves at the mercy of the federal
government excuses their failure.
R C Dean|9.7.05 @ 5:26PM|#
Mark, the boilerplate that you quote is intended solely to get
federal money flowing. The operative language is "coordinate" and
"provide assistance."
It is totally inadequate for the task of dispossessing state and
local government of their police powers and miscellaneous law
enforcement assets, declaring martial law, repealing the Posse
Comitatus, and generally enacting a federal takeover of NO and
LA.
|9.7.05 @ 5:28PM|#
John:
I don't mean to excuse at all the failure of state and local
authorities.
I'm just sayin', the feds and their apologists shouldn't be allowed
to deflect their own responsibility by rolling it all downhill to
Nagin and Blanco.
The disaster declaration on Sunday put the federal agencies in
charge. They failed miserably. We need to figure out why, and fix
it.
And by "fix it" I don't mean a simple fix like firing that dumb SOB
Brown, no matter how good in the short term that may make some
people feel.
And by the way, I don't think that simply firing that dumb SOB
Brown is not the answer. We need to fix the bureacracies that have
broken by the misfeasance and malfeasance of Congress, the
administration, and bureacrats on both sides of the aisle.
If we can't do that, we should give up the legal fiction of
institutional disaster coordination, and just tell everyone that
for better or worse they're on their own.
|9.7.05 @ 5:32PM|#
I see a clusterfuck at every level. These arguements are
occurring, because there has been a fuck up at every level. If
anyone can say something good about what they've done, they
wouldn't be passing the buck.
In a perfect world New Orleans would be self sufficient. They'd
have no reliance on the federal government. They would have had
their own plans, and would have made adjustments long ago.
We don't live in that world. We live in one where we all pay money
so the federal government can run bureaucracies like homeland
security and within it FEMA. N.O. ain't off the hook by any means,
but the levels of overlapping responsibility made the whole thing
worse. If FEMA isn't up to the task, and Homeland Security isn't up
to the task, then shut them down.
|9.7.05 @ 5:42PM|#
RC Dean,
You are right. To this moment the feds do not have the authority to
enforce state law and order. Bush did not have the authority to
launch the military in there without the State asking for it.
Further, the FEDS had told the the states for years that it would
be 72 to 96 hours before any federal help would arrive. The State
of Louisianna has a National Guard, fire and police departments.
They further had been on notice for years that this was eventually
goin to happen. There is no excuse for them not being able to
handle the situation in the first 48 hours and the fact that they
couldn't is not the feds fault.
|9.7.05 @ 5:42PM|#
RC Dean:
I read the Stafford Act much differently than you do. It's not
"intended solely to get federal money flowing."
There are significant provisions empowering agencies of the federal
government -- under the direction of the President -- to "provide
assistance essential to meeting immediate threats to life and
property resulting from a major disaster."
These include "search and rescue, emergency medical care, emergency
mass care, emergency shelter, and provision of food, water,
medicine, and other essential needs, including movement of supplies
or persons."
Perhaps someone from the White House should have read the Act and
understood its provisions before making the dceclaration. Is that
too much to ask???
For reference, text of the Stafford Act here:
http://www.ohioema.org/robertt.htm
Jeff P.|9.7.05 @ 5:50PM|#
It's amazing that even in the face of the direst emergency politicians still make time for sound bites.
|9.7.05 @ 5:53PM|#
I think Bush is responsible for the federal government's
deplorable response to the crisis. I agree with what Kayne West
said 5 days ago on NBC that Bush does not care about black people,
and I think that influenced the miserable failure that is Bush's
response to this disaster.
Bush has never agreed to meet with the NAACP, and is the only
President since Herbert Hoover in the 1920s that has been so
insensitive to this organization for black people. He has nominated
some extremely ideological conservative judges to federal district
courts who have been hostile to civil rights and civil liberties
such as:
a.) Terrence Boyle, 4th circuit court judge who ruled for whites
and against blacks in two voting rights cases-reversed both
times.
b.) Janice Rogers Brown, DC circuit court judge who voted to
protect racist speech in the work place.
c.) D. Michael Fisher, 3rd circuit
court judge who voted to protect racist speech in the work
place.
d.) William Pryor, 11th circuit court judge who voted to promote
states? rights over the rights of blacks who have been
discriminated against.
Bush has also repeatedly passed tax cuts that mostly help his rich
1% upper class friends while at the same time he has cut social
services to help the very poor. Bush?s much-touted No Child Left
Behind Act is inadequately funded and does not address the soaring
number of poor, under funded, racially segregated public schools
nationally. The Bush administration also backed white students in
their effort to torpedo the University of Michigan?s affirmative
action program. Bush backed so called ?race neutral alternatives?
that cripple the fight for workplace diversity.
In short, Kanye West is 100% right when he says that Bush doesn?t
care about black people. Maybe if Bush did care about minorities he
would have responded more appropriately to this disaster rather
than commenting on how much he hopes that Senator Lott's mansion
would be rebuilt so that he could BBQ on the porch.
|9.7.05 @ 6:20PM|#
The apologists are desperately trying to shift the discussion to
the evacuation, because there is absolutely nothing they can say in
defense of the days and days of delay in providing food, water, and
medical attention to the desperate people trapped in the city by
the flooding.
Everyone knew there were people trapped in the Convention Center.
Where the hell was the food? Where the hell was the water? FEMA, as
per federal law and its internal procedures, was THE agency with
primary responsibility for those tasks, and where the hell were
they? That is the central truth in this whole story, and the
desperation of those trying to talk about something, anything, else
is becoming more and more evident.
|9.7.05 @ 6:20PM|#
Did anybody watch Nagin's pre-hurricane announcement of the
evacuation of the city? I began worrying when I watched it. I'm no
psychologist, and I'd never seen the man before, but what I saw was
a man who was either depressed or extraordinarily tired. He seemed
to be laboring to speak.
Maybe he always talks that way. Even so, I would not look to that
man for decisiveness in crisis.
|9.7.05 @ 6:21PM|#
1/800-wah-waah
Mike, I think you're argument is completely off-base. I would like
to see some hard evidence for your assertions. I mean specific
things, like repealing lynching laws and ordering concrete walls
built around the 'hood. All that affirmative action stuff is just
cream-topping for the special protection crowd. Hate speech in the
workplace? Who cares... Grow some nuts and tell the offender to
f*ck off.
Kanye West? C'mon, really.
The hurricane response is NOT a white vs black thing. That's as
ridiculous as saying that the exclusive use of white lab mice is
racist.
Live free, fall or fight and embrace colorblindness.
|9.7.05 @ 6:24PM|#
I can't tell if people got the point I was trying to make with
that alternate history.
Yes, FEMA and DHS are incompetent. Tell me something I don't know.
They would be incompetent under Kerry, too. Yes, Bush filled
positions by patronage and ignored the situation while he thought
others were handling it. That's government in action.
What I described was what a perfectly competent FEMA would do,
trying to save the maximum number of lives: recognize that the
local plan was inadequate and actively take control of the
situation.
Do you folks who think the blame falls on Bush really want some
toady two levels down in the Bush Administration taking over a
sovereign state? Because that's the only way I see that Bush could
have done anything to save 95%+ of the people who are thought to
have died.
|9.7.05 @ 6:28PM|#
Heh, sorry I shouldn't have responded to an attempted
thread-hijack...but I couldn't resist.
Out here.
|9.7.05 @ 6:29PM|#
Does this fingerpointing exercise serve any point?
joe, if you really believe what you say, then hasn't the federal
government proven once and for all that they should NOT have sole
control over a situation like this?
Frankly, for the state and city to openly admit before the disaster
that there was no way they could handle it speaks louder than any
argument made on this board regarding federalism OR the obvious
incompetance of FEMA. It WAS their responsibility for the last 50
years to have a workable plan in place to respond to exactly this
type of disaster, and with their plea for help from the feds, they
basically admitted that they've had their thumbs up their asses all
these years.
|9.7.05 @ 6:30PM|#
Seriously, I'm really wondering if anyone else saw what I saw in Mayor Nagin's evacuation announcement before the hurricane.
|9.7.05 @ 6:35PM|#
People ignore the possibility of catastrophe so they can get
out of bed and get through the day without having a breakdown. The
river could rise! A plane could fall out of the sky!
AAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!
Whew, thank goodness people don't think about disasters that could
happen to them. The stress of things like, say, figuring out which
is the sturdiest interior room in the house so as to have a place
to shelter during a severe storm, would just kill people
with terror.
|9.7.05 @ 6:38PM|#
Larry
I didn't see the announcement you're referring to, but I think I
get what you're aiming at. I did see the abhorrent performance of
the Jefferson parish president on Meet the Press. Cry-baby leaders
hardly inspire confidence. I would imagine a depressed leader would
inspire little as well.
|9.7.05 @ 6:56PM|#
The apologists are desperately trying to shift the
discussion to the evacuation, because there is absolutely nothing
they can say in defense of the days and days of delay in providing
food, water, and medical attention to the desperate people trapped
in the city by the flooding.
You're right, Joe. There's absolutely no defense of that. FEMA is
part of the DHS, which is Bush's cabinet agency, and which he
glopped together like a huge, mishapen mass of clay years ago. The
problem is that Katrina stepped on the pedal and the damn thing
flew apart under rotation.
Howver, all of that does nothing to excuse the local and
state authorities for abandoning thousands of the most vulnerable
people because, uh, their neighbors will give them rides
out of town, that's it.
|9.7.05 @ 7:13PM|#
Joe: It seems to me like you're the one trying to change the
story - anything to take the focus off Nagin and put it solely on
FEMA (which, for the record, is fucked up. And Brown is useless. So
stipulated).
Nagin - and every mayor before him - has known that there are
(were) approximately 100,000 people in NOLA who did not own cars or
otherwise have access to private transportation. Plans may or may
not have been made to move these people - I've seen both claims
made - but if there was a plan, it was not followed and if there
was not, that's criminally negligent.
Further. Nagin told the people without cars that if they couldn't
get out otherwise, the city would transport them to the Superdome.
Now, surely, the 100,000 people without cars did not occur to Nagin
only when he declared the mandatory evac, did they? Did he make up
the idea of Superdome-as-refuge-of-last-resort on the spot? No, he
didn't. Then why was no effort made - no effort at all - to stock
up on supplies, portable toilets, etc.? Because this is NOLA, a
city so singularly fucked up as to make FEMA look efficient and,
even though Nagin is much less corrupt than all the former mayors
(hey, I'm much taller than most fifth graders) he still did nothing
to prepare for a scenario in which a) a lot of poor people are
stuck in the city and b) there's a hellacious flood. Neither of
which were unlikely scenarios. So he told all the poor folks to get
together with their neighbors and bring food. That's not really
disaster prep, is it?
I live in Houston. The Astrodome was made ready in under 48
hours.
I haven't even addressed the question of why he waited till Sunday
to declare a mandatory evacuation.
And please don't claim that you can't make any claims about Nagin
and Blanco's performance because you don't know. You do know. You
are very well informed, you stay current on events, you've read the
same newspapers and watched the same newscasts I have, you know
about Nagin and Blanco's performances.
To say that those performances were abysmally inadequate is not to
absolve FEMA of any responsibility.
|9.7.05 @ 7:28PM|#
If I live in a city in a hurricane prone area that is ten feet below sea level, at some point I bear some responsiblity to have some way to get out in case of a hurricane. Its a different case for people who are too sick or too old to get out on their own, but any able bodied person left in New Orleans during that hurricane bears some responsibility for their being there. Further, the Superdome did keep people alive. It wasn't a pleasant existence but they did live. I don't recall anyone being turned away from the Superdome. Again, other than the sick and the lame, what excuse does anyone have for not going at least to the Superdome? As far as the life support provided there, no one died of hunger or thirst there. It was unpleasant but it got them through a terrible disaster alive, which is more than would have happened in most places in the world. If I see one more 400 pound woman on TV crying that she hasn't ate in four days, I am going to be sick. People do bear some responsibility for their fate. I find difficult to believe that I am in the minority thinking this on this alleged "libertarian" blog. I guess the daily Kos crowd really has taken over.
Phil|9.7.05 @ 7:38PM|#
Its interesting that the very same people who have a stroke
at the thought of the FBI reading their library records are now
shocked that Bush did not completely disregard the laws blah blah
blah blah blah . . .
It's equally interesting that the very same people who believe that
there should be no constraints by Congress or the courts on the
executive power of the President, in his role as
commander-in-chief, to torture cab drivers wage the
war on terror now think that he should have to wait until every "i"
is dotted, every "t" is crossed, every "Mother may I?" uttered and
every magic word said before picking up the phone and saying,
"Food! Water! NOW!"
joe, if you really believe what you say, then hasn't the
federal government proven once and for all that they should NOT
have sole control over a situation like this?
That presupposes that this snafu was a feature of FEMA qua
FEMA, rather than FEMA as staffed by Bush and managed by Chertoff
and Brown.
|9.7.05 @ 7:38PM|#
Just so we're all clear on the background of Nagin:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Nagin
Cheers...
William
|9.7.05 @ 7:45PM|#
"FEMA, as per federal law and its internal procedures, was THE
agency with primary responsibility for those tasks, and where the
hell were they? That is the central truth in this whole story, and
the desperation of those trying to talk about something, anything,
else is becoming more and more evident."
Seriously joe, when should FEMA take over? Hurricane Katrina was
forecast to make landfall somewhere between Intracoastal City La
and Pensacola Florida. Were they supposed to prearrange food,
supplies, staff in all the cities and towns along the gulf coast?
Or do they expect the towns and states to be prepared and then come
in after they know what assistance is needed?
Is it realistic to expect aid to reach 100,000 people within 48
hours after a hurricane does the kind of damage to infrastructure
that Katrina. Remember that as of Tuesday a.m. almost everyone
thought that New Orleans has dodged the bullet and Biloxi MS had
taken the worst of it. The major flooding in New Orleans did not
begin until late Tuesday morning. Airlifts had already begun on
Tuesday afternoon. Try being practical.
|9.7.05 @ 7:45PM|#
The reason why evacuation should be first and foremost the topic of examination is because evacuation is the only means by which one could reduce fatalities by a substantial percentage. This battle was lost by Sunday morning, in terms of reducing deaths by a large percentage, and those who don't want to make evacuation the first order of examination are pursuing an agenda other than reducing future fatalities to the greatest degree. My greatest fear of what will come in the aftermath of this catastrophe is that the dunces we elect to Congress will make the evacuation of every major American city a federal responsibility, thus causing people to pay even less attention to the actions of their local and state governments.
|9.7.05 @ 9:28PM|#
Someone needs to please explain to me why it is that George Bush or the Governor or anyone else is responsible for the deaths of a bunch of people who were too stupid, lazy or too interested in stealing to evacuate the city or go to the Superdome after they were told a catagory 5 hurricane was going to hit. There were some real horrors in New Orleans regarding nursing homes where people were left by the owners to die. Those nursing home owners ought to go to jail forever. But beyond the horror stories of people who were too ill to leave and were abandoned by their caretakers, I fail to see what the hell the government is supposed to do for people other than tell them to get out of the city and give those without cars a safe place. They seem to have done that by and large. Further, how is it that all of these alledged libertarians on here, refuse to even admit that people might have some responsibility to see to their own safety. Big momma government is supposed to come and solve all problems, even ones that have been building for nearly a century and if they don't it must have been because the President was racist.
|9.7.05 @ 10:37PM|#
John,
Lots of people did go to the Superdome, just like they were told.
They were left to die there, without food, water or sanitation, for
five fucking days.
God, I hate it when I agree with joe.
|9.7.05 @ 11:07PM|#
Steve,
It was a huge disaster. No one had it well. None of those people
died of thirst or hunger. I repeat, if I see one more 400 pound
woman screaming she hadn't ate in three days, I am going to vomit.
People were also told to bring three days worth of food and water
to the Superdome and few of them did. They were too busy looking
for a government handout. God I hate it that even alleged
libertarians don't believe in personal responsibility anymore.
|9.7.05 @ 11:46PM|#
So we can air drop supplies in to every third world country in the world at the drop of a hat, but we can't for our own people, unless it cleared by the right bureau / department in triplicate. Pathetic.
|9.8.05 @ 10:36AM|#
Cliff,
Air dropping supplies is very difficult and dangerous, you tend to
mash the recipients. I don't think anyone wanted Americans being
smashed by falling pallets on CNN.
|9.8.05 @ 11:11AM|#
"joe, if you really believe what you say, then hasn't the
federal government proven once and for all that they should NOT
have sole control over a situation like this?"
No, it proves that we need to fix FEMA. There is no one else onto
whom this responsibility can be shifted - only the feds have the
resources for an effort this big, and when such an event occurs,
any local government in its path is going to see a great deal of
its capacity put out of commission anyway. If the Fire Department
screws up and fails to put out a fire, you don't disband your fire
department. You reform it, because you don't really have a
choice.
Eric, nice reductio ad absurdum. If you pretend that "people are
inclined not to think about disasters" means "people never think
about their own safety," your post makes perfect sense. I'm sorry
the reality of the human psyche is inconvenient for your
ideological preferences - that theme seems to come up quitre
regularly, I've noticed.
stubby, I've got no brief for Nagin or Blanco. But they're small
potatoes here. The biggest screw ups - the failure to provie
adequate food and water to the desperate crowds for days, the
failure to provide an adequate military presence to preserve order
- were federal failures.
I knew the Bushbots would start to demonize the people hit hardest
by the disaster as soon I saw the first report from the Conventin
Center, but I never imagined anyone would argue that, since some of
them are fat, it's ok that they weren't given food and water. No
shame at all.
|9.8.05 @ 11:21AM|#
Strange, Joe, that you apparently believe that the one action that could haver saved the most lives, evacuation, is "small potatoes". Why is that, and what agenda do you wish to pursue other than preventing fatalities in the most effective way? Who are you apologizing for?
|9.8.05 @ 11:45AM|#
Will,
The City of New Orleans doesn't have the capacity to evacuate all
of its citizens, either. Once again, you're still talking about
emergency operations that are well beyond what a municipal
government is capable of, and requires a federal
intervention.
And as we've seen, no evacuation will ever be complete. Some
fantasyland evacuation that doesn't leave many thousands of people
behind, that receives absolute compliance, could have theoretically
saved that many lives, but let's deal with reality here.
An airlift and an earlier military presence, on the other hand,
actually are within the realm of possibility, and within the
capacity of the federal government. Unlike your dream evacuation,
they could have been done. They just weren't.
|9.8.05 @ 12:07PM|#
But Joe - HOW early? You can't organize an airlift and a
military intervention in 24 hours - in order for the military to
have gone in on Wednesday, much less Tuesday, when the chaos
actually started, they would have had to start preparing on
Saturday or Sunday. Nagin didn't even declare the evacuation until
Sunday. Are the feds to mobilize for intervention every time a
dangerous hurricane is headed to NOLA?
I'm much more concerned about the fact that, according to Red Cross
officials, they were ready to starting trying to get food in on
Tuesday, but Louisiana Homeland Security people wouldn't let them
in; and FEMA, once on the ground, was turning away generators, food
convoys and the like.
|9.8.05 @ 12:18PM|#
stubby, given all of the reports and planning that had been
done, the potential need for massive airlift relief efforts was
well known before the storm reached land.
When Blanco declared the state of emergency, when the National
Weather Service issued a report (pre-storm) that a levee break
would result in water shortages that would create suffering unknown
in modern history, the secret was out.
|9.8.05 @ 12:20PM|#
Joe, your titanic clash with the strawman is quite impressive,
for it's persistance, if nothing else. First, you posit a world in
which an evacuation is either 100% effective, or only 80 %
effective. Why do erect such a false dichotomy? Who are you
apologizng for? If 100% effectiveness is not possible, does that
mean 90 or 95% effectiveness is impossible as well, or that those
levels of effectiveness should not be goals to strive for?
Next, you are simply wrong, intentionally or otherwise, regarding
who controlled what assets available for mass evacuation of those
without cars 48 hours prior to the storm coming ashore. Tell me,
Joe, which political bodies (I'll also note that you convieniently
ignore the state's capabilities in your post above. Who are you
apologizing for?) do you suppose controlled the 1000 busses closest
to the center of New Orleans on the Saturday morning prior to the
storm arriving?
Finally, I'll note the contempt with which you view the people of
New Orleans and Louisiana, as evident in your assertion that they
are not capable of self-government, and thus are unable to manage
an effective evacuation.
|9.8.05 @ 12:53PM|#
John,
It doesn't matter how fat you are, not eating for 3-5 days isn't
going to be fun.
Also, how about going 3 days without clean water?
If the news vans could get to the Superdome, why couldn't trucks
full of food & water? Why couldn't busses to get people out?
Why did we get supplies to Sri Lanka 2 days after the tsunami, but
it took 4 days to get them to people in New Orleans?
Really, John, this situation doesn't strike you as an enormous
failure of government at every level?
|9.8.05 @ 12:58PM|#
And joe, I wouldn't go so far as the say all the biggest
screwups were federal. The failure to maintain basic levels of law
& order in New Orleans was one of the worst fuckups of all, and
the blame falls right on the mayor and the NOPD. Not using all the
buses to get people out seems like a city fuckup, too.
None of those people deserve to be tarred & feathered as much
as Michael Brownie-Brown, though.
|9.8.05 @ 1:57PM|#
Joe:
"Where was the Food and water?
Right there in the city. The American Red Cross had pre-positioned
relief stocks of food, water, blankets, etc. It was the State of
Louisiana that blocked the Red Cross from entering, and
distributing the supplies to the people in the Superdome and
Convention Center. Here's the link. It's Hewett, but he has lots of
further links to back it up.:
http://hughhewitt.com/archives/2005/09/04-week/index.php#a000211
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