New at Reason

|7.14.05 @ 1:25PM|#

Macho macho man! I want to sleep with macho men!

|7.14.05 @ 1:30PM|#

Why do I smell trash? Oh wait, this is a recycled thread. :)

|7.14.05 @ 1:32PM|#

We don't know what women want, but we do know that there is no God. Uh-huh.

|7.14.05 @ 1:36PM|#

When did electronics shift from geeky to manly. Power tools, I can see, but all of the sudden buying an iPod and a Blackberry makes you Charles Bronson?

|7.14.05 @ 1:42PM|#

Mo,
Electronics used to be (generally) utilitarian tools to fix stuff. Now, electronics (especially little portable ones like iPods) are a way to simulate wearing a suit made out of c-notes. It's always manly to be rich.

|7.14.05 @ 1:45PM|#

Why should men care what 61% of women want? Which 61% are we talking about anyway? Is it a bunch of exurban housewives living in Iowa and Indiana? I don't really care what most women want because in all likelihood I don't want them. What men want is a poll of beautiful hotties between the ages of 19-35. When you find out what 61% of that subset want then I'll pay attention.

|7.14.05 @ 1:49PM|#

Girls really do like guys that are good with computers. I've gotten laid many a time after demonstrating how to code a complex HTML table layout to a web-wench in distress.

ed|7.14.05 @ 1:50PM|#

"beautiful hotties between the ages of 19-35"

Who, um, want to kiss each other.

|7.14.05 @ 1:55PM|#

Here is what I have found women to want in a man;

They want a man that can beat up other men, they want a man that is respected by other men, they want an ambitious man, they want a confident man, they want a man that wants them, they wan a good looking man.

Most women I know want a man with some or most the above qualities. But then again, the women that I meet are different than the women that maybe Nick Gillespie or Julian Sanchez meets.

Jen, Smacky, Serafina, Passingthru, you are up. Talk to us.

|7.14.05 @ 1:57PM|#

Well, I'm one of the women Julian has met. (Remember getting kicked out of that bar with P.A. and Social Animal, Julian?)

So what exactly are you implying, and what is your question, Kwais?

|7.14.05 @ 1:58PM|#

Oh and for some reason they like guys with broken legs. When I was in crutches I got luckier than I would have ever expected. I don't really know the math on that one.

|7.14.05 @ 1:59PM|#

I would have thought there might be some "performance" issues if you were on crutches...

|7.14.05 @ 2:01PM|#

We don't know what women want, but we do know that there is no God. Uh-huh.

what?

anyway, where are all the women whose ideal men spend their spare cash on kentucky bourbon? don't hide, i know you're out there somewhere.

|7.14.05 @ 2:02PM|#

Oh and for some reason they like guys with broken legs.

kwais,

It was probably because you can't run away that way. The must be the dominant types.

Jen, Smacky, Serafina, Passingthru, you are up. Talk to us.

I forsaw this question about a day or so ago. I will respond later. Right now I am up for a meeting with my boss-woman.

|7.14.05 @ 2:04PM|#

kwais,

Based on my limited observations of military wives, you are in trouble. :)

Regardless of what women say they want, men who make them feel like the most important being on the planet have outrageous amounts of success. I've seen butt-ugly salesmen who are wonders to behold in action.

|7.14.05 @ 2:05PM|#

Linguist,
I am not really implying anything. I am just talking about my experience. But I know that there is a whole section of women that I am not going to know about. The women that another man meets might have completely different charachteristics. The women that approach me, or are approachable by me have certain expectations. The ones that are approachable by me might have completely different things that they are looking for, and I would never know because I wouldn't mingle with them.

My next question for the women on the forum is does what I mentioned resemble what you look for in a man, or am I way off? Is Nick Gillespie closer to representing what you are looking for? (not that it is contradictory)

|7.14.05 @ 2:06PM|#

I know one thing... Most women don't like a man that carries a gun practically everywhere. Doesn't matter if they know I'm legally licensed in 3 states to do so. They're scared shitless of it. My personal observation is that most modern women aren't into macho men. (Although, I don't really consider myself very macho anyway.)

My wife is the only woman I know that matches her outfit of the day to what pistol she feels like carrying. When you start getting selective with your opposite sex attributes, polls are worth shit.

|7.14.05 @ 2:07PM|#

F. Carolyn Graglia sounds like the type of bimbo who runs around saying things like "My husband only beats me when I deserve it."

|7.14.05 @ 2:07PM|#

where's the conservative poll on what homosexual men are looking for?

|7.14.05 @ 2:09PM|#

It's a lot like economics, though. What women want and what they can get aren't necessarily the same thing (unfortunately, this holds true for men, too).

|7.14.05 @ 2:14PM|#

No women are looking for me.

|7.14.05 @ 2:14PM|#

kwais,

I wasn't offended, I was kidding you :-)

Anyway, I think your description of what women want is general enough that most women could agree.

My question was, I don't know what type of women you meet as opposed to what Nick and Julian might meet (which I guess includes me)...

and beware asking this sort of advice from women on the Reason boards...as you might have noticed, we're a minority of a minority of a minority and I'm almost certain that all (10? 12?) of us will have very individualistic requirements for ideal men!

|7.14.05 @ 2:14PM|#

you're right, LNM. kentucky bourbon gets expensive sometimes.

|7.14.05 @ 2:19PM|#

Vanya makes a good demographic point. I might tweak hottie to good-looking, and increment that age-range north by 10 years or so, but I would only care about the opinions of the set of single women who would conceivably keep company with me.

The short answer to "what do women want" has usually been "not you, buster."

Kevin

|7.14.05 @ 2:27PM|#

If I could travel back in time and speak to the younger MK as he set about trying to find a mate, one of the first bits of advice I would give to that young man would be "Never pay any attention to any article that purports to tell you what women want".

Every girlfriend I have had has been radically different than every other. The only common thread is that they were all willing, at least for a while, to put up with me. That means that they themselves were already quite different than many other females.

|7.14.05 @ 2:27PM|#

When you start getting selective with your opposite sex attributes, polls are worth shit.

kmw hit it right on the head. There no telling on a large scale what will attract most people. Everyone has weird individual tastes.

|7.14.05 @ 2:29PM|#

i would say there is telling on a large scale, but that general trends don't mean much, when you're only looking for one woman (or a few women) anyway.

|7.14.05 @ 2:31PM|#

BTW,

I've actually done quite well with the ladies in my lifetime and I am, according to most guys, a fem.
I don't begrudge women what they find attractive. I have close female friends that are intelligent and independent who like nothing more than to be clobbered over the head and dragged back to the cave by a cro-mag.

|7.14.05 @ 2:33PM|#

What do women like?

Side two of Zepplin Four.

Works every time.

|7.14.05 @ 2:34PM|#

Based on observations, what women want are the following:
A nice guy, but not too nice that he�s a doormat.
A tough guy that can hold his own in a fight, but not so tough he starts fights.
A guy that�s upwardly mobile or at the very least someone that has ambition, but not so ambitious work is his entire life.
A guy that is well-groomed, but doesn�t take longer to get ready than she does.
A smart guy, but not one that makes her feel dumb.
An occasional asshole.
All of these observations are on a gradient. Each girl defines their ideal middle differently, so buyer beware.

drf|7.14.05 @ 2:38PM|#

reference alert: "Fast Times At Ridgemont High"

|7.14.05 @ 2:40PM|#

Patric D,
I have ample experience with military wives, and that probably is a contributing reason why I am not married.

Smacky,
I think that the broken legs thing had two factors 1 the "poor thing, how can I make him feel better". And 2 the always a mystery to me, "he's not a threat factor"

Linguist,
There were no performance issues. Some positions were painfull, but that didn't slow me down.

I was implying that they meet metrosexual women more than me. But you know them, so you could better tell.

I know the reasonoid womean are a minority. In my travels far and wide I have not met a woman that was enthusiastic as me about politics and not a liberal or a religios nut (and who was also within breeding age). So I am very curios about the represented small percentage on this forum, lest I meet one some day. (not that I would change who I am for them).

Jeff|7.14.05 @ 2:43PM|#

Last Thanksgiving weekend Jennifer and I were at a wedding in Lancaster PA. In one corner were two girls, probably 2 and 4 yrs old, who were falling asleep in their chairs after a long night.
Then the DJ put on a Barry White song.
The girls were on the dance floor within seconds.

|7.14.05 @ 2:47PM|#

Mo,

In the immortal words of Chris Rock,

"What do women want? I tell you what they want. Eeeeeevrything!"

Do not spend your life trying to please women. Down that path madness lies. Just don't be too much of a pussy or too much of a dick and your bound to get lucky sooner or later.

Oh yeah. Lying a lot helps too.

|7.14.05 @ 2:49PM|#

kmw,
I have notices a general aversion to guns also, except in a select few. But in all cases it can be overcome. I have tought all my girlfriends to shoot, and after the lesson, they lose their aversion. Their next boyfriend might pay the price of that one, oh well.

Mo,
You seem to be meeting similar women as me. Except for the smart part. I have never really noticed the smart part to be an issue.

|7.14.05 @ 2:51PM|#

I attracted my current girlfriend when I mentioned, jokingly, that I wanted to start a "Society For the Preservation of Adverbs." It turns out she's an editor by profession and likes men who cringe when they hear Apple's "Think different" slogan. Other criteria high on her list were such things as loving dogs, a willingness to watch every episode of "Monk" multiple times, and "you must not kiss like a 14-year-old boy." Comparing these criteria with those of other women I've dated has led me to the conclusion that women are completely insane and a happy relationship is just a matter of finding a girl whose particular insanity compliments yours.

|7.14.05 @ 2:52PM|#

ralphus,
Lying is a crutch. You don't need to lie to get laid, just tell her the truth and wait 5 minutes longer for her to justify it to herself.

|7.14.05 @ 2:54PM|#

I'm a woman, above the 19-35 demographic, but I'm alright if you don't mind me saying so. I think Julian Sanchez is f*in hot stuff. Also, Nick Gillespie was surprisingly hot when I saw him in person. And both are really smart. I want a man like one of them.

|7.14.05 @ 2:57PM|#

OK kwais, I'll bite.

First, I suppose I do count as a metrosexual woman, but I'm also a hardcore midwesterner from semi-rural Ohio.

Let's use Mo's handy-dandy sliding scale: 0 to 5
4 -A nice guy, but not too nice that he�s a doormat.
4- A tough guy that can hold his own in a fight, but not so tough he starts fights.
(Note, this guy is NEVER allowed to hit women. But yeah, he'd better be able to carry more luggage than I can.)
3-A guy that�s upwardly mobile or at the very least someone that has ambition, but not so ambitious work is his entire life.
4-A guy that is well-groomed, but doesn�t take longer to get ready than she does.
(Bit of a pet peeve with me if a man is more vain than I am...it's not that it's effeminate so much as lacking in confidence...going back to your original post)
5+-A smart guy, but not one that makes her feel dumb.
(Must be smarter than I am, which is tough, but also not patronizing if he knows more about a subject than I do)
3-An occasional asshole.
(Yeah, ok, I admit it. It's entertaining, and then I get to be the calm, rational one.)

I'll add that interesting conversation, about ANYTHING, is also a 5. Politics gets a little ugly even if you agree on most things. Good looks are a plus of course, but that's very relative, too. (For me it's all in the face.)

|7.14.05 @ 2:57PM|#

Mad Scientist, I would also have been attracted by your desire to preserve adverbs. I hate the Apple slogan too. And I'm not even an editor! I am, however, into cats and don't care if a man likes dogs or not. So it's a good thing you met her and not me.

|7.14.05 @ 2:58PM|#

Well said oh Mad one.

My wife and have realized that we are bonded together not so much because we like the same things,but because we hate the same things.

Or as my mother once put it, "It's not a question of finding the person you like the most. It's a question of finding the person you dislike the least."

Ah Mom. Always the romantic.

|7.14.05 @ 3:02PM|#

Oh yeah. Lying a lot helps too.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, ralphus. Are you wrong on that one!! "Not a liar" is on the top of my list of what I am looking for. I don't know about other women, but I have a pretty decent bullshit detector, which makes things more difficult for me on the relationship front (because I always end up busting my boyfriends amist their bad lies...and then I dispose of them).

The moral of Jeff's wedding story: Barry White works....for Michael Jackson types.

|7.14.05 @ 3:06PM|#

smacky,

1. I was joking.

2. Who said anything about a relationship?

|7.14.05 @ 3:07PM|#

"It's not a question of finding the person you like the most. It's a question of finding the person you dislike the least."

Yup. Like I said to my boyfriend 6 weeks in, "You don't annoy me at all!"

This just in: Chicago is selling the names of the El lines to commercial interests. http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-cta14.html

|7.14.05 @ 3:09PM|#

I attracted my current girlfriend when I mentioned, jokingly, that I wanted to start a "Society For the Preservation of Adverbs."

Mad Scientist,

You would have repelled me! As a former classicist and linguaphile, I have to point out that the "-ly" ending is redundant in the Apple slogan example, as it is also redundant in many uses of adverbs in the English language.**
The "-ly" is simply not neccessary there, and it's not "correct" just because of what your fat, old grammar school marm taught you. (Unless you're going to argue for "Tradition", which never got anybody very far on a Libertarian website).

**The German language illustrates this fact nicely, specifically because their adjectives are frequently used as adverbs, with no change to the stem. (Sometimes adverbs in German do have the comparable "-lich" ending, but often times that, too, like English "-ly", is an unneccesary syllable.)

|7.14.05 @ 3:11PM|#

Stop me if you've heard this one:

An architect, an artist and an engineer are sitting in a bar. While discussing what women want in men, they begin arguing over whether it's better to have a wife or a mistress.

The architect says, "I prefer a wife, because a happy life requires a strong, solid relationship, just as a building requires a foundation."

The artist disagrees: "A mistress is much better, because she ignites my passion and desires, and these drive me to create art."

They look at the engineer. "I need both."

"Both?"

"Yeah. If you have a wife and a mistress, each one thinks you're spending time with the other, and you can go to the office and get some work done."

Don't know why I posted that, guess I just wanted to contribute.

D-FENS (doesn't have time for a girlfriend, but thinks talking frogs are cool.)

|7.14.05 @ 3:11PM|#

And there you have it.

If smacky were a guy and had posted that, I would want to get to know him better.

Cheers, smacky!

|7.14.05 @ 3:14PM|#

linguist,

If you were bisexual, maybe we could work something out.

|7.14.05 @ 3:15PM|#

Oh I almost forgot one important category:
The ability to fix things.
My roommates and exes have always loved that I can fix things, especially computer and home related stuff.

kwais,
Regarding the too smart thing, I have been told quite a few times by female friends and exes that there are times when my intelligence was intimidating and that they sometimes feared/wondered that I would get bored of them or thought they were an imbecile. I don't get how this came about since I'm almost never patronizing or showy, but I guess it's due to insecurity.

Best advice I could give to a guy or a girl is to be yourself. Sure it won't work all the time, but if you get someone that likes tyou for some facade, once the facade comes down, they'll run like heck. If they don't then the facade isn't necessary (this doens't mean pick your nose on a first date, but be yourself).

linguist,
Put 3 in tough guy and 4 in upwardly mobile and that sounds like my dating resume. Conversation is huge. Find a girl that can keep me engaged in conversation for hours and is a minx in the sack and I'll show you my future bride.

|7.14.05 @ 3:18PM|#

I doubt my tastes are representative of what women in general want. I don't like assholes or people who are deliberately mean. I want someone who can keep his head and fight fair when we disagree. I prefer a slender, elegant man who does interesting work and does it very well. Someone smart and well-read and can defend his musical tastes and political opinions. Someone with self-deprecating confidence. Someone who isn't clingy or jealous and can deal with the fact that I travel frequently and have friendly relationships with people I used to date. Someone who's clean but not a neat-freak, who is spontaneous and doesn't need to overplan every little outing. Someone who will just do what needs to be done without needless dither. Someone who prefers the quiet of early mornings to the late-night parties. Someone who gets my jokes and understands that I am the boss of the kitchen. He can pick some other area to be boss of.

|7.14.05 @ 3:18PM|#

Jeff/Jennifer: Where in Lancaster was the wedding? I live on the east side of town.

With the locally large proportions of traditionalist Anabaptists and born-again fundamentalists, I think that the average Lancaster County woman wants a man somewhere between Rod Parsley and the dashing Amish character played by the late Alexander Godunov in Witness.

|7.14.05 @ 3:18PM|#

As long as we are talking about lying's role in relationships, I contend that no relationship could exist without them. There are certain things guys think and do that no woman in her right mind should ever know about if you want to keep her around. I'm not talking big stuff like illegitimate kids and same sex affairs. I'm talking about stuff like what I was really doing in the shower for so long and that my thoughts about Scarlet Johansen go a lot further than, "She's a lovely and talented young actress." I'm no idiot. I realize that she probably knows the answers to these questions on some level, but why confirm?

|7.14.05 @ 3:19PM|#

I'm only going to do this once, since it IS the Reason board...

Mo:

smacky:

:-)

|7.14.05 @ 3:20PM|#

Smacky, that just proves my point that we're all different. ;) Are you saying that "different" is the adverb form of "different?" I have never heard that before. Interestingly, dictionary.com lists both "different" and "differently" as adverbs. Still, it's a mute point because if I change my usage now my girlfriend will break up with me.

|7.14.05 @ 3:22PM|#

Duh. I forgot I can't use certain punctuation marks here.

Mo: (wink)

smacky: (blowing kiss)

:-)

|7.14.05 @ 3:24PM|#

(It's a MOOT point, Mad Scientist. Don't want you to get it trouble with your girl.)

Jeff|7.14.05 @ 3:27PM|#

Why imaginary voices are always male:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/4675103.stm

|7.14.05 @ 3:27PM|#

(It's a MOOT point, Mad Scientist. Don't want you to get it trouble with your girl.)

DAMN!!!!

|7.14.05 @ 3:29PM|#

Great link, Jeff!

Boy, if you weren't taken! :-)

Ok I'm stopping now, I promise.

|7.14.05 @ 3:36PM|#

Jeff, do you remember where in Lancaster the wedding was, so as to answer Dave's question? I remember that the ceremony and reception were held in this cool art gallery in a very pretty, old-fashioned kind of Gothic/Victorian downtown.

|7.14.05 @ 3:53PM|#

Thanks linguist. I'm sure smacky wonders how "cunning" you are. I'm sorry, I'll stop (though this thread seems to be made for playful banter and flirting, sort of like the red light district theory. Create an area that attracts all the bad behavior so it doesn't overflow into the more serious areas).

A couple more pieces of advice. Humor seems to work and if you can try to live with someone of the opposite gender (or two if possible). I learned more in my year with my current roommates than in the rest of my life combined. I may write a book Everything I Learned About Women, I Learned From my Bisexual Roommates.

|7.14.05 @ 3:54PM|#

Apple's slogan is ambiguous, possibly deliberately so.

Is it telling you how to think (e.g. Think different(ly) from others), or what to think (e.g. Don't think about the normal choices, think about the different choices)?

|7.14.05 @ 3:55PM|#

Mo's onto something, to my thinking. Nice is nice, tough is good (though they must never be bullies), smart is critical, asshole is sometimes unavoidable, but the other necessary ingredients are a sense of humor (esp regarding himself--this ameliorates the asshole part)and an interest in other people. I can't tell you the number of smart men who, given a small window of opportunity, will talk about themselves forever. Of course, YMMV. I must say, the Reason men I've met are all fabulous. And Kerry's pretty great, too.

|7.14.05 @ 4:04PM|#

Notice how there's never a long drawn-out discussion about what men want in a woman.

|7.14.05 @ 4:06PM|#

There are certain things guys think and do that no woman in her right mind should ever know about if you want to keep her around.

This is why I will likely never find a mate. (I mean a long-term mate).

Mad Scientist,

Yes, that's precisely what I'm saying. "Different" functions as the adverb in that Apple slogan, and that's all that essentially matters. I understand the annoyance with it though, if you learned a different way and like to rely on a trusted set of language rules. That's how I feel about people who punctuate plurals (e.g. hoagie's). It's hoagies, dammit!

if I change my usage now my girlfriend will break up with me.

Well, ain't she the taskmaster! And I thought I was demanding.

|7.14.05 @ 4:08PM|#

I've found that looks aren't super important to ladies. But you've got to be able to 'get your foot in the door'. Once they get to know you, if they like you as a person, they'll generally like you for more.

One problem I've been having lately: I haven't had an actual gf in a long, long time...mostly just playin' around. But I'm always looking for 'that girl'. So I've met a couple of ladies recently that I really like, but as soon as I show any 'serious' interest in them, they get cold feet, even if we had been totally hitting it off.

That's been really weird to me. The only thing I can think of is that they had been in a ltr in the somewhat recent past.

Interesting stuff. Cuz both sides have been trying to figure out the other for a long time now, without much success. The funny thing is, my gay sister has some of the same questions about women that I do! :)

|7.14.05 @ 4:14PM|#

As a Jew, I am very disturbed by the anti-Semitism that I encounter here. I don�t think it has anything to do with libertarianism, and I hope other bloggers will join me in denouncing it.
One must make a very important distinction between legitimate criticism of Israel and anti-Semitism. As a state, Israel does some things that are good and some things that are bad. Many legitimately argue that Israel�s occupation and oppression of the Palestinians is bad. To characterize opposition to the occupation as anti-Semitic is clearly dishonest and unfair.
Those who peddle conspiracy theories that make Israel at least partly responsible for the terrorists attacks against the United States of 9/11 are anti-Semites who hide behind legitimate criticism arguments. They draw on a long tradition of anti-Semitic stereotypes: Jews are powerful, devilish clever, and will stop at nothing to exert their control over the world. All they have to do is put their �theories� out there and suggest that �we need more evidence.� In fact, they care nothing about evidence. They care only about planting dark suspicions about Israel�s�and by extension, Jew�s�role and intentions in the world. Don�t be fooled by the anti-Semite�s denunciations of racism. It�s merely an attempt to give this particularly vicious racism an aura of respectability.

|7.14.05 @ 4:16PM|#

Lowdog & Todd:

I've always felt that men are much easier to deal with than women, for the most part. I hate to say "less complicated"...but...

|7.14.05 @ 4:16PM|#

I have a piece of advice: don't think of women as some type of alien being that needs all of these superficial, outlandish requests fulfilled. I think one of the most desirable things is someone who actually cares about what you have to say, and who you are, and what your opinion is (not all the time, of course -- I don't want a man who needs me to make decisions for him all the time). I guess I'm trying to say I (speaking as a female) want an equal (or equivalent). Someone who is interesting, but who is also willing to not only shut up once in a while and let me talk, but to actually care about what I am doing with myself, my likes/dislikes, and other aspects of my life. I am a pretty tolerant if not good listener, so I'd expect the same in return.

Unfortunately, I haven't found a happy medium. (I've dated guys who don't have strong convictions about anything moral or social, or have incorrect (according to me) convictions about moral/social matters (read: bleeding heart liberals or brainless conservatives), guys who never hold their end of the conversation up and let me go on and on until I feel like a windbag, and guys who never let me fit a word in edgewise and who go on and on about themselves ad infinitum). Haven't found that happy medium, I guess.

|7.14.05 @ 4:18PM|#

I think it's only fair to point out that smacky had post #69 in this thread.

|7.14.05 @ 4:20PM|#

why, thank you, thoreau, for pointing that out to me.

Yeah! It's my lucky day. (maybe)

|7.14.05 @ 4:25PM|#

But if Smacky's bisexual, wouldn't she be better off with post number 69 AND 66? Or would it be 99? I'm not sure how these things work.

|7.14.05 @ 4:26PM|#

Hillel
???

|7.14.05 @ 4:27PM|#

So, the difference between lying and telling the truth is only a five minute wait while she justifies her desires.

While I truthfully {ooh! an adverb ;~)} favor truthfulness, for some that five minute delay may be the difference between a mutually ;~P satisfying experience and something unfortunately ;~D premature.

|7.14.05 @ 4:27PM|#

I think I'm a pretty good listener and a decent conversationalist - if I'm talking to someone who gives even half a damn what I'm talking about. Unfortunately, I want to talk about libertarian politics, space exploration, video games, philosophy, psychology (nothing too in-depth, but more general observations about how people act), sociology (same as psych), etc. A lot of times, people just don't want to hear what I have to say. I mean, my friends do, but a lot of women I might take out on a date don't seem to.

But this is all part of the human condition and you deal with it the best that you can. There will be failures and successes, so I don't worry myself about it all too much. :)

|7.14.05 @ 4:30PM|#

Mo-
He's cutting and pasting it into multiple threads.

|7.14.05 @ 4:33PM|#

77 is the best position of all. It's just like 69, but you get 8 more.

|7.14.05 @ 4:35PM|#

A lot of times, people just don't want to hear what I have to say. I mean, my friends do, but a lot of women I might take out on a date don't seem to.

I have the same problem, Lowdog, if it makes you feel any better. I have grown accustomed to the blank stare, the interruption, the change of subject, the: "oh....that sucks", and the: "cool...now back to what *I* was saying..." ). I'd say I suffer from repeated communication breakdown, but it never seems to be there to begin with.

|7.14.05 @ 4:37PM|#

Mr. Gillespie,

Is it fair to say that your deck is in bad shape? That "goddamned deck" bit really jumped off the page.

|7.14.05 @ 4:39PM|#

NoStar wins.

|7.14.05 @ 4:41PM|#

Cathy Young:

I suppose it does take courage to argue that it's not good for women to think too much

Yeah really. For me, a woman can go along ways toward being interesting, simply by being intellectually curious-interested in interesting things. The type of woman I like tend to appreciate the same in guys. (Did the poll ask that?) I'm thinking that two people who have curious minds have a good basis for a sincere friendship component of their romance.

Of course, there are requirements of physical appearance taste that must be satisfied for both partners. I make them to be absolutely necessary but insufficient alone for a really close romance.

|7.14.05 @ 4:44PM|#

I don't know what women want, or more to the point, each woman wants something different. You know, what with them being "people" and all.

I have, however, found that it is very difficult to go from being friends to being anything more than friends. Better to be straight up honest and just ask the girl out.

Self-assurance seems to be the way to go.

|7.14.05 @ 4:45PM|#

Oh. And I'm told that a modest amount of bling is a good thing, too. Lets her know you don't work at Arby's.

|7.14.05 @ 4:50PM|#

"Hey there, baby. Just wanted to let you know I don't work at Arby's."

Works for me.

|7.14.05 @ 4:52PM|#

I have, however, found that it is very difficult to go from being friends to being anything more than friends. Better to be straight up honest and just ask the girl out.

I agree!

If the "friend zone" is a good starting point for others, well, so be it. I know women always say they'd like to start there, but they seldom want to leave. All of the women that I dated I asked out in a more-or-less obvious way early on. That doesn't mean that I asked them out as soon as I met them, but after getting to know them a little bit (hanging out a couple times, usually) I'd ask them on something that was obviously intended as a date. I didn't get all dorky and use the word "date" but I would use words like "go out" and make sure it was a 2-person activity. I'd hold doors, pay for things, and generally do everything possible to make it clear that I wanted to explore the possibility of something more than friendship.

I won't say that it always worked for me, sometimes it didn't click and it never turned into a relationship. But hanging out for a long time and trying to be really good friends first never seemed to work for me. Once I'd gotten to know a little bit about someone, if I was interested I'd take the plunge and it would either work or it wouldn't.

The lesson? Take risks, be bold, and avoid the "friend zone" like the plague!

|7.14.05 @ 4:54PM|#

"The opposite of talking isn't listening. The opposite of talking is waiting."

-- Fran Liebowitz

|7.14.05 @ 4:55PM|#

I'm coming into this thread late in the day (my employer is getting its money's worth today), but I have to agree with Mad Dog.

I don't look for this particular insanity, but I keep finding it, and it does complement: for some reason I get along really well with a "manly" man who likes weapons and does "manly" work, but is way more girly than me. For instance, my beloved is a Marine vet, but brought lace curtains and color to the house, cleans everything up nice and neat but leaves the cooking to me. If I can get him to stop wanting to know everything about how my day went, it'll be just perfect!

We're becoming comfortable with the apparent fact that he's the chick and I'm the guy.

|7.14.05 @ 5:02PM|#

Incidentally, I would like to ask the women here a question:

What does it mean when a woman says that she wants "security?"

The last girl I dated knew Tae Kwon Do, and I'm well-practiced in pistolcraft, so she obviously didn't mean physical security.

She pulled down more money than I, so she obviously wasn't referring to financial security.

So I'm at a loss as to figuring out what she meant. Any help appreciated.

|7.14.05 @ 5:04PM|#

Thoreau,

Having lots of female friends will get you places, not with the ones that you are in the "friend" zone with, but with the other girls who notice that at least one other female finds this one guy worth her time. It's a bit like being pre-approved for credit.

Note: this works especially well if your female friends are "alpha" females.

|7.14.05 @ 5:06PM|#

mk-

No disagreements here. My only point is that if you are interested in a particular girl, don't spend too much time in her "friend zone".

|7.14.05 @ 5:08PM|#

"The lesson? Take risks, be bold, and avoid the "friend zone" like the plague!"

I'm with you, thoreau. If you start out as my friend, you'll stay there. If there's an initial attraction then we're either going to pursue it (I will if the guy doesn't); otherwise, no chance in hell. (This has recently been a problem for me. Not to pick on you because I know you're a physicist too, but jeez oh peets, could you have a talk with some of your cohorts?)

Anyway, mediageek, EMOTIONAL security. Knowing she's really loved, knowing you'll never leave her, or having a family, is my guess.

|7.14.05 @ 5:13PM|#

I don't buy the "friend zone" thing. I have been threatened (once successfully) by multiple "friends" of my ex-boyfriends who want to be more than friends with them. And those were long time friends of theirs.

Why do I always meet exceptions to these seeming rules that people claim? And why does it always work not in my favor? Good grief, Charlie Brown.

|7.14.05 @ 5:14PM|#

When I stopped thinkin' about what women wanted and started thinkin' about what I wanted, things got simple. Crick's Third Law of Social Dynamics states explicitly that females control the beginning and end of every voluntary relationship. ...Understand that. Feel it. ...Know it.

There are things you can do to make yourself more or less attractive, but if it doesn't work out... Remember that a thing is what it is and not something else. ...and remember that, stay or go, you're gonna have to live with yourself.

Crick's Fourth Law of Social Dynamics states explicitly that when females are confronted with mutually exclusive alternatives, they often choose both. ...Don't worry about what women want, worry about what you want. There should be things you aren't willing to compromise--don't compromise on those things.

|7.14.05 @ 5:15PM|#

Thoreau,
I know what you are saying and you are certainly right. Once one is in the friend zone it is hell to get out.
One way to do it is to appeal to their sense of competition. Use your status among the alpha females to acquire sexually-charged attention from the other females. You can then use that attention to subtly inform your female friend that, as you much as you delight in her company, you will not be perpetually at her disposal. Add Jealousy, mix well and watch the feeding frenzy begin.

|7.14.05 @ 5:17PM|#

What I mean to say is: they weren't ex-boyfriends at the time, but had been dating me at the time of the "girl friend" ambush. Now I am conditioned to fear boyfriends' girl "friends". Although I do try to be reasonable about it. There just be a lot of girl boyfriend thieves around here.

Oh no wait, that's me: I'm the chick bait.

|7.14.05 @ 5:17PM|#

While this is a good topic for a thread, what I really want to know is why women don't seem to want to have sex as much as most guys do...

|7.14.05 @ 5:17PM|#

All I know is that women will never be satisfied until they have everything.

Just like the Jews.

|7.14.05 @ 5:19PM|#

Smacky-

If men won't be faithful to you, you can always try linguist.

|7.14.05 @ 5:21PM|#

Larry,

There actually is an answer. First, it's not true all the time (some men have low sex drives and some women high, but you knew that).

Testosterone is primarily responsible for the physical part of women's sex drives just as it is men's. We just don't have as much.

Jeff|7.14.05 @ 5:22PM|#

Dave: The wedding was at the Mulbury Art Center in Lancaster.

|7.14.05 @ 5:23PM|#

thoreau,

Huh? Uhm, I like men, thanks. Even physicists. :-)

|7.14.05 @ 5:23PM|#

Eh, it's more of an issue of timing for me. I spent years looking for a morning boy.

|7.14.05 @ 5:23PM|#

linguist, thank you for the info, it's much appreciated.

In retrospect, that makes a lot of sense.

|7.14.05 @ 5:25PM|#

While this is a good topic for a thread, what I really want to know is why women don't seem to want to have sex as much as most guys do...

Wha? I've not had this problem. Hopefully I never will. *crosses fingers*

|7.14.05 @ 5:26PM|#

linguist-

I was teasing, after you blew kisses to smacky.

And I'll let my colleagues know that they need to clean up their acts. However, most of them are too busy lusting after the handful of women in their labs.

|7.14.05 @ 5:28PM|#

thoreau,

Sorry I missed the humor :-)

I was in a lab with this one. Really it was just sad...

The physicist before that was great, though!

|7.14.05 @ 5:28PM|#

I don't buy the "friend zone" thing. I have been threatened (once successfully) by multiple "friends" of my ex-boyfriends who want to be more than friends with them. And those were long time friends of theirs.

Ahh smacky, but why do you think they weren't more than friends before you came along? Maybe it's just me, but I find that my female friends get jealous of my new girlfriends (especially if I've been single for a while) because unconsciously I'm less like a pseudo-boyfriend to them. I don't offer to pay for dinner or drinks as often and other little niceties I usually shower my friends with because I'm already doing it all the time for my female friends. So they get closer and flirt more and once the relationship is over. Sure there's the off chance that one of your boyfriend's friends would hook up with him while in a relationship (being taken is the world's biggest aphrodisiac for men and women), but I assure you that once it is over your ex-boyfriend will go promptly back to the friend zone*.

* This does not apply if any of the friends ever had a relationship with your boyfriend.

|7.14.05 @ 5:29PM|#

When I stopped thinkin' about what women wanted and started thinkin' about what I wanted, things got simple.

my thoughs exactly. women want a man who doesn't care what they want, and want what he wants. and that's that.

i want kentucky bourbon (and my girlfriend).

|7.14.05 @ 5:30PM|#

*and wants what he wants. i would leave it uncorrect but that could get a little confusing.

|7.14.05 @ 5:32PM|#

It just occurred to me, going back to the actual study that prompted this discussion, that maybe the study was right. We DO want "manly" men.

The thing is, we might define that differently. Reasonoid women seem to think that having a big giant brain and being able to hold his ground in an argument is sexier than having lots of muscles.
Huh. Cool.

|7.14.05 @ 5:34PM|#

The Ladder Theory explains it all.

|7.14.05 @ 5:34PM|#

All I can say is that www.fastseduction.com help wonders for me (the total dork) leaving highschool. After that if a woman didn't like that I went rock climbing, rowin, worked hard in the fraternity, had crazy beliefs about capitalism, went to bondage bars and liked the whole multiple partner thing, well... tough luck for her.

|7.14.05 @ 5:41PM|#

It just works best for me to have fun be personable, and if she want's to play along then good for her.

|7.14.05 @ 5:43PM|#

well you clearly have an advantage, being able to introduce yourself to women as Captain Awesome.

|7.14.05 @ 5:44PM|#

Kwais sez:

I have tought all my girlfriends to shoot, and after the lesson, they lose their aversion.

Granted, I've been able to get several girls to find firearms interesting. But actually carrying around a loaded gun seems to be too much for them to handle. So I gave up trying, and found a woman that was already interested in guns. I pity the poor fool that tries to rob a store when we're both in there.

|7.14.05 @ 6:00PM|#

Well, on this thread I'm mostly just reading and learning.

One thing, which both gives hope and makes things that much more complicated: You gotta remember that women are individuals, too.

It seems they all want something differently! :)

|7.14.05 @ 6:07PM|#

Stevo - I know, right. Damn fickle women! :)

You know another annoying thing about some ladies is their intense desire to 'change' you. Like you're some public works project. I want a girl who wants to change with me.

|7.14.05 @ 6:08PM|#

mediageek -- maybe she wants emotional security

|7.14.05 @ 6:08PM|#

So they get closer and flirt more and once the relationship is over.

Mo,

what was it you were trying to say here? Once the relationship is over, then what? I think you might've deleted a part of your point by accident. Are you saying they only flirt and get close to piss me off, and then don't really have an interest/follow through with the guy they steal from me? In other words, they ruin my relationships for nothing? That's so destructive and pointless. I just don't get people like that. I don't know why so many other chicks begrudge me relationship happiness. They are clearly jealous commies.

|7.14.05 @ 6:21PM|#

Once the relationship's over they stop and he moves back to the nookieless friend zone. It's nothing personal, probably some territorial thing back from the Serrengeti. Men do it too. My ex (when she was my current) hooked up with a male coworker in the past and he stopped talking to her, avoided her and when they were in contact he was a jerk. I sent her flowers at work and all of the sudden he's nice, starts talking to her and acts like he did to get in her pants the first time. Now that she's single again he stopped and is currently ruining her friend's marriage.

Lowdog,
True. And once you're changed, they want nothing to do with you. That's why you need to fart in front of her occasionally to let her know you can't be tamed (I just lost all credibility with the female posters now).

|7.14.05 @ 6:21PM|#

lily & linguist- Yeah, that's it, but the thing is, I thought I was providing that. I'm kind of an artsy type, so I tend to be somewhat more emotional than your average stoic guy. (Goddammit)

But I'm not sure what more could be done to show this to a woman...

|7.14.05 @ 6:21PM|#

F. Carolyn Graglia sounds like the type of bimbo who runs around saying things like "My husband only beats me when I deserve it."

More on that decision here.

So kmw, the question on everone's mind is does your wife have a sister that could help me figure out whether to go with a bow tie when carrying a 9mm or an ascot? If it were a .45 LC it would be easy, but a 9...

|7.14.05 @ 6:29PM|#

Once the relationship's over they stop and he moves back to the nookieless friend zone. It's nothing personal, probably some territorial thing back from the Serrengeti.

The irony of the territorialism being that I am the one that treats them well and is truly interested in their happiness. Once I've been chased away by some crazy bitch, the guy can go back to being the miserable lump of crap that he was without me, to his "friends'" delight.

Nobody likes a nice guy. *sigh*

|7.14.05 @ 6:43PM|#

People do like nice guys. It's semantics, nice-guy sounds too much like push-over to some people, and that's where the confusion begins, err ends...
uh, gets more confusing.

|7.14.05 @ 6:54PM|#

I date only nice guys.

|7.14.05 @ 6:56PM|#

Serafina-

So you're the one? :-p

|7.14.05 @ 6:59PM|#

I think this whole "what do men/women want" thing is not only a waste of time, but a potentially self-defeating one as well, because it throws too many people off the right track. Granted I'm basing this just on personal experience and the experiences of friends and acquaintances, but here:

Jeff's my boyfriend and I love him dearly. And he has a lot of defining traits, like being a raging sci-fi geek, as well as a beer connoisseur who drinks beers with names like "Pretentio-Brau." And NOT ONE of those traits of his would have ever appeared on a list titled "What Jennifer is looking for in a man." Likewise, I kinda doubt that Jeff's lifelong dream was to hook up with a moody, misanthropic, candle-burning pothead slob, but damned if that isn't what he's got.

And its not just us--pretty much everybody I know who is happy in a relationship is like that.

|7.14.05 @ 7:03PM|#

Eddy,

She has a sister, but she's married too.

And I'm sure they'd both say bow tie. With a black leather horizontal harness.

Damn, now I'm starting to talk like a metrosexual.

|7.14.05 @ 7:17PM|#

I wonder what Graglia's reaction would be to a man who makes sure that his leather holster matches his belt and shoes?

|7.14.05 @ 7:21PM|#

"...what I really want to know is why women don't seem to want to have sex as much as most guys do..."

Yeah, Larry, I am wondering this, too (and I'm a woman). If I had a list of of "musts" in a partner, it would be that he's got to be able to lay me pretty much on demand. Fortunately, it isn't hard to find a man who also appreciates this.

|7.14.05 @ 7:23PM|#

Oh please, don't get me started. I'm still trying to get over the depression wrought by the "women-are-dating-geeks" thread a couple of months ago.

|7.14.05 @ 7:30PM|#

I don't know about Graglia's reaction, but my thoughts on the matter are... It shows that I've been married over ten years.

Of course, I don't accessorize like that. Worn out Galico IWB and my trusty ol' Kimber are standard fare. But I've picked up enough to play the part.

|7.14.05 @ 7:44PM|#

Akira--

Still indulging in self-fulfilling prophecies, I take it?

|7.14.05 @ 7:52PM|#

I don't know what women want, but as long as I practice Feynman's Law, I can get laid when I want.

"Don't pay for her drinks or food. And don't be shy about asking for what you want."

Paraphrased, but close enough.

|7.14.05 @ 8:26PM|#

It's semantics, nice-guy sounds too much like push-over to some people, and that's where the confusion begins

Too many people say nice when they mean milquetoast. A nice person will be kind when they tell you why what you want isn't going to happen. A "nice" person will just go along and then get passive-agressive when it gets to be too much for them. I don't know the first thing about women, but I know humans, and nobody likes the person who doesn't show any backbone. Except of course for the people who look for an easy mark.

|7.14.05 @ 8:42PM|#

My dating muscles have all but atrophied, along with those running, lifting, etc. ones, but I gotta know one thing. Is Pretentio-Brau any good, and where can I get some?

Kevin

|7.14.05 @ 8:45PM|#

Huh, interesting timing: There's a bunch of threads at Yglesias/Majikthise/elsewhere on the "nice guys" question too.

|7.14.05 @ 9:15PM|#

"Don't pay for her drinks or food. And don't be shy about asking for what you want."

The exception being that this doesn't work when you already reside in Friendsville.

Once upon a time I was sitting in a restaurant with a female friend who I'd tried the "friends to lovers" thing and failed. She'd rebuffed me several months earlier, but we were still friends.

The bill for the meal came, and I started to get out money to pay for my food.
Her: "You're not going to pay for my meal?"
Me: "Is this a date? Are we googly-eyed and stupid with love over each other?"
Her: "No."
Me: "Well, there you have it, then."

|7.14.05 @ 9:29PM|#

Is Pretentio-Brau any good, and where can I get some?

Your best bet would be the type of store that has superfluous 'e's in the name. Ye Olde Ale Shoppe.

|7.14.05 @ 10:25PM|#

For a really intellectually superior beer, you can't beat Heigh-Brau.

|7.14.05 @ 11:56PM|#

"why women don't seem to want to have sex as much as most guys do..."

Larry, I don't know what you are talking about.

Ralphus,
Very funny, a shame that Hillel probly did not get to see your response.

The friend zone thing.
I had problems with the friend zone thing a long time ago. But then it stopped being a problem. Probably because I look at the whole math problem differently now.

Female friends that I have are either, a) attracted to me but I am not attracted to them, or b) I am attracted to them but they are not attracted or willing to hook up with me.

Mostly the former, because with the latter I would try to close the distance and after failing, I would move on.

To that I will add; once there has been nookie there will always be nookie. For there to be no nookie there has to be no contact. If I have a new girlfriend, I can't hang out with the ex anymore. If the girlfriend gets married, she can't hang out with me anymore.

Also, in reading this long thread it occurs to me the obvious; what a girl or a guy says they want is very often very different from what they really want.

|7.15.05 @ 8:00AM|#

Still indulging in self-fulfilling prophecies, I take it?

Jennifer:

I don't deny that I have psychological troubles... make that LOTS of of psychological troubles. I have no confidence or self-esteem and I tend to avoid people like the plague. Whether this is the result of biology or a fucked-up upbringing, I don't know. Either way, I don't know what to do about it. For me, "getting over it," isn't as easy as it sounds. I've tried seeing a shrink, but the only thing I ever got out of therapy was a massive bill when my insurance provider refused to cover me. The only thing the doctor every came up with was "go to bartending school." Sorry, I may be screwed up, but I have enough dignity not to end up serving beer to barflies and other scum.

Still, it doesn't mean that I don't want nookie. Maybe even a long term someone who cared enough about me to give it on a long-term basis. The trouble is that I'm locked in a Catch 22: I can't find a mate because I lack self-confidence/self-esteem, and I don't have self-confidence/self-esteem because I don't have a mate. It's sad really, and I don't know a way out.

Katherine|7.15.05 @ 10:31AM|#

When it comes to finding brilliant, kind, and caring guys to date, I tend to go with the Price is Right approach to masculinity: find a guy who is as close to "gay" as possible without going over.

With one exceptions (who actually did turn out to be gay), it has worked out for me quite well.

I'm just sayin'.

|7.15.05 @ 10:33AM|#

Akira,
Get some kind of job or hobby where you mingle with a lot of women. Bartender is a great one, specially in a popular club, a bartender can't not meet women.

Or become a rock star, or a cage fighter, something that a certain type of women feels drawn to despite glaring insecurities. Once you start getting appoached by women your confidence will soar.

Drug dealer is another idea, but only if you can do that one without being caught.

Or just get drunk in places with lots of women getting drunk, you'll end up hooking up with women one way or another, you might not remember how it happened though.

|7.15.05 @ 11:40AM|#

Dagny thanks for putting into a brief phrase what a couple of people here have touched upon.

Akira-
I'm no ladies' man. I was in a very similar funk for over two years- had no g/f because I had no self-confidence, no self confidence because I had no g/f.

I came to the realization that I had to reinvent myself. For me this came through a realization that while I may not be a casanova that there are things I am very good at and should be proud of. Heck, even a touch of cockiness isn't a bad thing here. I have no idea what you do for a living, or what hobbies you have, but I'll offer the following bits of unsolicited advice:
1) Find something in your life at which you are a badass.
2) Realize that you are a badass at doing this. Not to go all Tony Robbins on you, but say to yourself "Damn, I'm a badass at doing X."
3) Women don't necessarily care about X, but they can see how you carry yourself as a result. It doesn't matter if X happens to be hacky-sack. Finding self-assurance in something you do well will help you to find it in other places, too.

4)If you have any female friends, drag them to the mall and make them dress you up. Get one or two outfits that look good on you. Pair of jeans and a button shirt or something. I suck at fashion, so I always ask my little sister what looks good, and asked her to give me advice on matching colors and whatnot. (As a graphic designer, I have to admit to a certain amount of frustration here. I could match colors for an ad or a motion design sequence, but was completely stymied when it came to matching shoes, pants, and a shirt.)

This isn't an overnight thing. There's no quick fix or guaranteed results. But work on expanding this stuff slowly and consistently. Try not to get too maudlin when you trip up. You're a human being, a member of the most adaptable species on the planet.

|7.15.05 @ 11:56AM|#

I don't know the actual divorce rate, but a more accurate poll question might be "do women know what they want?"

You could make an argument that the majority of women don't know what they want half the time:)

Or we could just stop the polling unanswerable questions and agree that what women want is as varied as the human experience. Why else would Wal-Mart, Steve Madden, REI, and Coach all offer gift certificates, unless it knew that men would forget a birthday until the drive home from work?
And believe me each one of those stores can drive a demographic of women to near hysteria:)

jimmy|7.15.05 @ 12:00PM|#

i'm a macho gay man who is looking for a macho gay man, but all i find are...well, you know...gay men. maybe the conservative ladies can help me out here??

|7.15.05 @ 12:20PM|#

I can't find a mate because I lack self-confidence/self-esteem, and I don't have self-confidence/self-esteem because I don't have a mate. It's sad really, and I don't know a way out.

Akira,

Start hanging out at emo and screamo concerts. Emo chicks love self-depracating, socially awkward guys. I've actually heard cute chicks list "socially awkward" as a desirable trait in a boy. Or hang out at a goth club or go to group self-help therapy -- all great places to meet chicks who love guys with self remorse.

When it comes to finding brilliant, kind, and caring guys to date, I tend to go with the Price is Right approach to masculinity: find a guy who is as close to "gay" as possible without going over.

Katherine,

I actually like those types of guys (not exclusively, of course). My only problem: I am a bad judge in deciphering exactly whether or not they are actually gay, and that has caused some chagrinning results to me in the past....(but then it all makes sense, once I find out for sure.)

|7.15.05 @ 12:26PM|#

Akira, I know it will be unpopular to say on this forum, but you need to go to church.

Trust me on this.

Note that I didn't tell you to believe. That's your business. I just told you to show up and go through the motions. Whether or not you believe any of it is your business.

|7.15.05 @ 12:28PM|#

Neal Stephenson has a rather entertaining aside about going to church to get laid in his novel Cryptonomicon

|7.15.05 @ 12:33PM|#

Hey, before I strayed from the flock, I used to make eyes at my future highschool boyfriend across the pews in junior high and early highschool. There is some truth to that.

However, Akira, I have to warn you to be careful of creepy 30- or 40-something well-meaning "Youth Group" counselors. Never turn yer back on them.

|7.15.05 @ 12:39PM|#

If you want a busy social life dictated for you, join a fundie church: Lots of Bible studies and parties and prayer groups. If you want an occasional activity to expand your social calendar without centering your entire life around church, join a main-line Protestant faith or the Catholic Church.

If you want a church that offers weapons training and survival camps in rugged mountain areas, and you have a good attorney, visit a Wahabi mosque ;)

|7.15.05 @ 12:50PM|#

" visit a Wahabi mosque ;)"

hahaha, yeah, but you won't meet females there.

But then for Jimmi, if you want to meet manly men(or men who think they are manly yet engage in homosexual sex). There you go, just go along with the whole "women are for reproduction, men are for pleasure" farce.

|7.15.05 @ 1:21PM|#

If you want a church that offers weapons training and survival camps in rugged mountain areas, and you have a good attorney, visit a Wahabi mosque ;)

Apologies for the thread jack.

I have to say, when I've seen footage of mad Wahabist's using small arms two words come to mind:

thouroughly.
unimpressed.

|7.15.05 @ 1:45PM|#

mediageek-

Would you prefer it if they were more skilled?

|7.15.05 @ 3:00PM|#

Mediageek,
Re:
The bill for the meal came, and I started to get out money to pay for my food.
Her: "You're not going to pay for my meal?

Best response here is:
Mg: "No, but if you play your cards right you might get lucky tonight."
----------------
Kwais,
My dad was a bass player and when I started playing drums he gave me this warning. "Don't take the attention too personally. If you put a guitar around a chimpanzee some woman will want to jump his bones."

What is interesting is the types of women who go for different instrumentalists.
Lead guitarists attract girls who like to talk A LOT.
Bassists get quiet types.
Keyboard players get the cerebral, philosophical or New Age types.
Drummers attract crazy weird chicks.

Katherine|7.15.05 @ 3:36PM|#

Smacky --

It's certainly a delicate science; there is no fine line. And, like on the Price is Right when you're guessing the price of the living room set, you do ocassionally "go over" and find yourself being dumped by a flaming gay man (and cursing yourself for thinking that his love of the color pink and disdain for The Jets just made him "sensitive"). But then, like you said, it all makes sense. And you have a potential new gay best friend.

Also, weren't you the one who was swooing over Sanchez in another comment thread a while back? He's a perfect example of how this theory is applied :)

|7.15.05 @ 4:56PM|#

Would you prefer it if they were more skilled?

No, I'd prefer that the media peeps would stop blathering on about how they're such a deadly bunch of sharpshooters.

NoStar- That's brilliant. If I hadn't been in my whole "maybe if I'm not too forward, she'll sleep with me" phase, I'd like to think I'd have said that.

|7.15.05 @ 6:00PM|#

mediageek-

I'd prefer if the media kept telling the terrorists that their shooting is superb and there's no need to improve their technique.

|7.15.05 @ 6:02PM|#

"But then for Jimmi, if you want to meet manly men(or men who think they are manly yet engage in homosexual sex)."

Right kwais, because "real men" can only have sex with women...

Does the military put some homophobic chemical in the water?

|7.15.05 @ 6:31PM|#

Katherine,

Yes, that was me. And all that time I was convinced Julian was gay!

NoStar -- you forgot lead singers. The girl who dates them is a complete masochist. (I know from experience!)

|7.15.05 @ 7:41PM|#

Thoreau:

Errrrr... no. I wasted more Sunday mornings in church than I care to remember. I really don't know which would be worse, up-tight Christian chicks, or the slobbering drunks my ex-shrink suggested.

|7.16.05 @ 12:33AM|#

Andy,
define 'homophobic'.

I mean, I don't hate gays, I am not afraid of them. I don't think there should be laws against them. I think they are a part of society.

But yes, by definition, a real man has sex only with women.

Well, I don't know, I guess, that also depends on your definition of 'real' in 'real men'. What beyond being born male, makes one a real man?

I define in what I consider to be real manly about me, some charachteristics that I suppose I learned when I was to yount to even know what I was learning. The things that I saw the adult women appreciate and and expect of a man. That is how I value me. I don't know how you value you.

|7.16.05 @ 5:18PM|#

Well, if not homophobic, your attitude is certainly heterosexist (thinking that heterosexuality is superior to other sexual orientations).

As for "real," I meant masculine, worthy of respect as a male as opposed to a female. I'm sure our sets of characteristics of "real men" are very similar, mine just doesn't have to include "only has sex with women." Having homosexual sex does not conflict with the other values.

While a man and a woman do have to copulate to continue the species (cloning aside), the vast majority of heterosexual sex is not done for procreation, but for recreation. If one engages in heterosexual recreational sex, is one not a man? Are real men not allowed to get blow jobs? Or if a guy eats a girl out, does he become a little bitch?

All I'm saying is, once you take the procreation out of sex, all sex between consenting adults is the same in terms of validity.

|7.18.05 @ 12:45AM|#

I'd prefer if the media kept telling the terrorists that their shooting is superb and there's no need to improve their technique.

Fair 'nuff. But then you have the US public at large hornswaggled into thinking the Middle Eastern equivalent the Hatfields & McCoy's are actually some sort of threat. Besides, I'm tired of having to explain to perplexed people who ask why such footage causes me to giggle uncontrollably.

Anywho, perhaps we ought to drag the thread back onto topic, you know, trading ideas on how to woo the opposite sex.

Reason.com

New at Reason

ed|7.14.05 @ 1:50PM|#

drf|7.14.05 @ 2:38PM|#

Jeff|7.14.05 @ 2:43PM|#

Jeff|7.14.05 @ 3:27PM|#

Jeff|7.14.05 @ 5:22PM|#

Katherine|7.15.05 @ 10:31AM|#

jimmy|7.15.05 @ 12:00PM|#