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Independence Day Open Thread
I'm about to follow Jesse Walker's advice and go grill soy products, drink cheap beer, and play with fire. You should get out of the house and do something similar. But if you've got any Fourth of July style thoughts, ruminations, poems, links to relevant blog posts, revolutionary performance art, or jingles, hit the comments.
|7.4.05 @ 12:46PM|#
Matt Groening's pledge, from his "Life is Hell" series:
"I plead alignment to the flakes of the untitled snakes of a merry
cow, and to the Republicans for which they scam, one nacho,
underpants, invisible, with licorice and jugs of wine for
owls."
|7.4.05 @ 1:06PM|#
Hey, there is absolutely nothing wrong with simulated
foods.
Anyway, let's raise a glass to these wacky United States!!
Daily News|7.4.05 @ 1:16PM|#
From a soldier in Tikrit for 4th July
10km NW of Tikrit, Iraq
He knows why he is there and what it means to him and America.
|7.4.05 @ 1:16PM|#
For reasons given by Radley Balko, I'm not in much of a
celebratory mood today.
There's no particular reason anymore to celebrate this country over
any other. It's just another meaningless day off.
aahpat (Pat Rogers)|7.4.05 @ 1:16PM|#
Actually I do have a bit of Constitutional/flag art but this
blog software won't allow my image link so for you to see it you
have to go to my blog, LeftIndependent at: http://leftindependent.blogspot.com/
Center column above the blog.
aahpat (Pat Rogers)|7.4.05 @ 1:21PM|#
Happy Independence Day
I pledge allegiance to the Constitution
and to the Bill of Rights of America.
And to the Declaration of Independence,
Upon which we stand as
One nation, under law.
Indivisible.
With liberty and justice for all.
|7.4.05 @ 1:46PM|#
Fireworks are banned where I'm at. Not to say that they're not
available, just that folks "shouldn't" have them. My biggest
concern is that my neighbors will get all liquored up and be
shooting off fireworks all night long--and in doing so will put my
apartment building in danger of being set ablaze.
I don't care if these assholes want to burn down their own
domiciles while behaving like idiots. It's when they threaten my
domicile that I have a problem with them.
The problem (other than post-fire recovery) is when these people
fail to see how they are behaving improperly combined with the lack
of personal responsibility if and when something goes wrong.
Question: How can this situation be remedied without using the
power of the state?
|7.4.05 @ 2:02PM|#
Last night, I went to the store to pick up some soda and gas up
the car. Of course, there were fireworks displays just about
everywhere I looked. I started getting a little maudlin as I drove
along.
Independence Day, I thought, What's the fucking
point? It seemed to me that all these buffons where
celebrating is the ability to shoot off fireworks and stuff
themselves with burgers and bratwurst. They seemed entirely
oblivious to the fact that whatever freedom we had
was flushed down the toilet some time ago. We've got congress
chomping at the bit to ban flag burning and revice the PATRIOT act,
a supreme court willing to steal property from the poor to give to
developers and tell sick people they can't smoke a weed that helps
them feel better, a theocratic president who is dragging this
country into a new dark age, and a despotic electorate who put
these nimrods into office in the first place.
What the hell do we have to celebrate?
|7.4.05 @ 2:28PM|#
Consider it a bit like May Day in the former USSR ... (I
exagerate for effect of course).
The government gives us a day off to celebrate what a wonderful
goverment it is. How wonderful indeed our government is, better
than any other. When our goverment tortures it tortures only for
noble purposes, when it detains people without evidence it does so
with good reason.
Sigh :(. Actually, I understand why people want to celebrate.
Americans work extemely hard. Days off are few and far between and
thus cherished. It's nice to celebrate good summer weather and good
friends. American culture doesn't really allow enough ritual play
and release and so who would pass up the opportunity? Etc.
The problem is with the actual assigned purpose of the day. How can
one not feel like (no worse than) an atheist on Christmas? And even
an atheist usually has less against modern Christianity than there
is to have against the current U.S. government.
We may work hard and deserve *a* day off but we hardly deserve this
particular day as the one thing Americans have let slide is keeping
any restraint at all on the thuggery of the thugs in power (yes
especially this administration though prior ones were hardly
perfect).
|7.4.05 @ 2:29PM|#
Fire Bad,
I think that you may be asking the wrong question. As you stated,
the state has already tried to remedy the situation by making all
fireworks illegal. You describe the miserable failure that results.
Those that have no sense of civic duty or responsibility go on
taking another swipe at the authority that tells them no. While
many take this as a sign that we give the state more power to
regain civilty, I think that is the wrong option. If the start
doing random house searches in your neighborhood looking for
fireworks in the week preceeding the 4th, it probaly wouldn't
eliminate the problem completely while it would certainly cause
numerous new ones.
The question is, how to we get the state less invovled in our lives
and try to regain a sense of no-state enforced, civic
responsibility that has been replaced by the wanton disregard for
any authority, much like the mindset of a spoiled child?
|7.4.05 @ 2:53PM|#
When raising our glasses at times like this, there is one thing to which we must raise them before all others: our ability to endure.
|7.4.05 @ 2:53PM|#
Our President is a buffoon, and our Secretary of Defense is
incompetent.
...I love this country.
|7.4.05 @ 3:09PM|#
I shall celebrate my freedom to whine, bitch & moan, as well
as my freedom to make ridiculously naive historical comparisons to
certain aspects of the current state of affairs.
Once I get done with work that is. You guys got the day off?
Bastards, there ought to be a law.
|7.4.05 @ 3:43PM|#
I agree with the "saysuncle" thread; we haven't much reason to
celebrate anymore.
Friday before last was my last day of work before going on a
week-long business trip, so I had to work late and didn't leave
until almost eight o'clock. (It was still full daylight.) Driving
home, there was a sobriety checkpoint just before the Interstate; I
reached it around eight-fifteen, still in daylight. The cop was
polite, I'll grant that, and I only had to wait five minutes before
my turn to prove that I'm a nice, law-abiding person by answering
the following questions: Where was I coming from? Where was I
going? Had I had anything to drink? Had I consumed any controlled
substances?
Hooray for freedom, indeed. I got a little too much sun at an
outdoor party yesterday so today I am quite content to stay in my
shadowy apartment and brood on just how few freedoms I actually
have to celebrate anymore.
But let's look on the bright side: I am still far better off than I
would be in North Korea or Saudi Arabia. Too bad "We're better than
a brutal dictatorship" doesn't have quite the same ring as "We're
the land of the free."
IO ERROR|7.4.05 @ 5:00PM|#
Few remember anymore why we celebrate this day. As I said elsewhere (before I got to this post, sorry!) a reminder is in order. Pay careful attention to what is going on in America today, be vigilant, and oppose the next rise of tyranny. Otherwise all this will have been in vain.
|7.4.05 @ 5:12PM|#
In some ways, we're getting better. In others, worse. Let's not
shit ourselves; America has never completely lived up to our own
ideals. The trick is to keep fighting, despite the essentially
discouraging nature of the enterprise.
Now, I'm going to go meet up with the other volunteer firefighters
to supervise a local display. The beer and personal fireworks are
for later. Happy 4th, all.
Stewart Vardaman|7.4.05 @ 5:27PM|#
Cracking the Flag-Burning Amendment:
http://www.scalzi.com/whatever/003585.html
aahpat (Pat Rogers)|7.4.05 @ 5:46PM|#
Comment by: Stewart Vardaman at July 4, 2005 05:27 PM
See my graphic response to the flag burning amendment here:
http://leftindependent.blogspot.com/
|7.4.05 @ 6:30PM|#
Reading comprehension problems I see. What part of "I exagerate
for effect" don't you understand?
To the extent that it's more than a day to party, it's seems it's
just a day set aside to worship the state.
|7.4.05 @ 7:07PM|#
If anyone has missed out on Mencken's translation of the
Declaration of Independence into 20th Century English, remedy that.
It starts:
When things get so balled up that the people of a country have
to cut loose from some other country, and go it on their own hook,
without asking no permission from nobody, excepting maybe God
Almighty, then they ought to let everybody know why they done it,
so that everybody can see they are on the level, and not trying to
put nothing over on nobody. ...whole thing here.
Miund you, H.L. uses the occasional word that I wouldn't, but
you'll enjoy most of it.
Kevin
|7.4.05 @ 7:22PM|#
The Fourth of July is the secular equivalent of Christmas. The shopping mall is the contemporary temple. The great spirtual disciplines of our faith are to consume without getting fat, to diet without ceasing consumption, and to stay healthy by swallowing pills. We believe in eternal life, or at least, in eternal youth, and we want it now. In the name of the Dollar and of the Euro and of the Yen, Amen.
|7.4.05 @ 8:18PM|#
Keep the faith, Jow. If you've got any kids, sacrifice them to freedom in Iraq. That will really show your patriotism. If you don't have kids, go on a shopping binge.
|7.4.05 @ 8:26PM|#
Daily News...
I read John of Arabia's bit about the 4th of July and I'm
confused...where in the Constitution does it say "all men are
created equal?"
|7.4.05 @ 8:30PM|#
NIMBY
Has anyone considered how it might be offensive to Iraqis that we
are using their back yards to fight terrorists?
If fighting terrorists were really really important, we'd want to
fight them right here, wouldn't we, where we could really make
mincemeat of them?
Ain't it funny "our" back yard is so sacred we won't allow a
gasoline refinery to be built, so Saudi Arabia is building a
gigantic one in their back yard, which will surely help stabilize
the price of gasoline.
Should that count as a Brownie Point for the country most obviously
responsible for 911?
Does only Dubya get to decide which yards of this globe are front
yards and which are back?
Was John Hancock a terrorist? Ben Franklin thought so.
|7.4.05 @ 8:40PM|#
America is great!
We are libertarians
And we do hate the state
But like the proletarians
Who disappointed Marx
We're oh so patriotic
So, stuff your smart remarks
America is great
It might be idiotic
But America is great!
|7.4.05 @ 9:06PM|#
Melissa,
You sound like Sparkle Plenty (of Dick Tracy fame.)
Sparkle was B. O.'s daughter.
|7.4.05 @ 9:20PM|#
Ruthless,
I'm from Italy, so I don't know much about Dick Tracy. Is that a
compliment?
|7.4.05 @ 9:25PM|#
Assuming I support the Iraq Debacle because I love my country,
Melissa? Shame on you - fine yourself $20, payable to the
DNC.
Can I tell you all about the day I became a patriot?
It was September 14, 2001 - the Friday after September 11. My city
had a candlelight vigil on the plaza in front of City Hall. I
missed it. But I was driving home from a friend's, when I hit some
weird traffic. The vigil had broken up a couple hours before, but
the kids were driving around in a big loop through downtown, waving
American flags out of their windows, and there were other kids
standing along the roads, cheering them on. Lovely, says I. Grumpy
cops trying the keep the speeds down, and to get the kids not to
lean quite so far out of their cars while yelling "woo!" or not to
lean quite so far into the road while yelling "woo!" back at the
cars.
But what I noticed was, the white kids with crew cuts in the cars
were waving their flags at the Cambodian kids in front of their
tenements, and yelling "woo!" And the Cambodian kids were waving
little American flags back at them, and yelling "woo!" There was a
beefy kid with no shirt on with an American flag in one hand, and a
Puerto Rican flag in the other, with the letters "USA" painted on
his chest, standing on the side of a main street. He was yelling
"woo!" at the white kids in the cars, and they were yelling "woo!"
right back at him, right back at his red, white, and blue Puerto
Rican flag.
Yes, it was an obnoxious display of meatheadery, and it's lucky one
of those kids didn't fall out of his pimped out Civic and bash his
head in on the curb. But I've never been prouder of my city, and
I've never been able to dismiss patriotism as the mean, divisive,
disparaging right wing phenomenon I'd previously scorned.
|7.4.05 @ 9:29PM|#
WoW, Joe, what an epiphany! It's a little tawdry, maudlin, and suprerficial, but it's your epiphany. I'll bet the hair stands up on the back of your neck when you hear the anthem. Good for you.
|7.4.05 @ 9:38PM|#
"I'm from Italy, so I don't know much about Dick Tracy. Is that
a compliment?"
Melissa, It's a compliment. It's a compliment!
Sparkle is good! B. O. may not be so good, but sparkle is!
Below is from LewRockwell.com.
"I finally got on to speak for my 82 seconds (all the time Larry
King Live could spare for the peace message) about how this war is
a catastrophe and how we should bring the troops home and quit
forcing the Iraqi people to pay for our government's hubris and
quit forcing innocent children to suffer so we can allegedly fight
terrorism somewhere besides America. How absolutely racist and
immoral is it to take America's battles to another land and make an
entire country pay for the crimes of others? To me, this is blatant
genocide. How dare we export our brand of flag-waving death and
devastation to a people who have been through so much already? It
wasn't bad enough that our sanctions killed tens of thousands of
Iraqis before we even started an active aggression against them.
Now we have to create confusion, chaos, and disorder there. How
dare our president and Congress, and we Americans, allow this to
continue?"
|7.4.05 @ 9:56PM|#
Suddenly all your meanderings about ED make sense, joe. No wait; correction: Suddenly I have a whole new perspective for what can pass for thought. Lovely, says I, and thanks for sharing.
|7.4.05 @ 9:57PM|#
Melissa,
Being from Italy instead of France, what is the shape of your
head?
Cone is taken.
|7.4.05 @ 10:05PM|#
Mr. Bobo, you old Internet chat queen, it's been awhile! Last I
saw you, you were reforming AOL, one convert at a time. Good to see
you keeping up the moonbat image here in the Hive of overt colonial
imperialism. Great touch, that phoenix-liberal-hyperrational thing
on the 4th! And at Reason, no less! Simply brilliant.
Posting as Ruthless too? Also a nice touch.
Anyway, good to see those same old synapsis firing again. I'm sure
folks are finally listening.
|7.4.05 @ 10:08PM|#
Ruthless,
You are a victim of the anti-intellectual, xenophobic strain in
American culture. Joe is a victim of the sentimental strain.
Anarchist discourse in Italy is a tad higher than anything I've
seen in these posts, so you should worry about the shape of your
own head.
Oh yes, and in Italy, we don't call our fascists Republicans. We
call them fascists.
|7.4.05 @ 10:20PM|#
To all of you who are making fun of joe: shame on you. Loving
this country isn't wrong. Love is rarely, if ever,
deserved; it's freely given, with full knowledge of the
beloved's faults and flaws. I love this country to distraction. I
don't love it as much as I do freedom, of course, but that's not
what's at issue here. What is is that we're all sitting
here, moping, complaining about how bad things are. Well, things
aren't bad; they're simply not perfect. One day a year,
can't we focus on what's good about this country, and not
on what's bad? For the last month, things haven't been going the
way we libertarians like. Why don't we just get drunk (or high),
celebrate what's been going right, and wake up tomorrow renewed,
refreshed, and reminded of what we're fighting for?
The United States is, all things considered, the freest nation on
the face of the planet, and there is no better place to work
towards the future we all want to see than here. And if we lose the
fight, so what? Let's go down fighting valiantly, to the last man,
rather than giving up because it's hopeless. Who knows? Maybe we'll
win. But let's not let future generations say that we didn't give
it our all.
|7.4.05 @ 10:20PM|#
"You are a victim of the anti-intellectual, xenophobic strain in
American culture."
Is that a compliment?
|7.4.05 @ 10:21PM|#
I was thinking of...
...Burning an effigy of King George III...
...Firing a musket into the air...
...Dumping tea into the American River (the nearest large body of
water [also having a very appropriate name])...
...Burning all my tax information in a prominent and public
location...
...Publicly decry and forbid the quartering of troops within my
dwelling...
...But on second thought maybe I'll just watch some TV, surf the
Net, read a book and maybe watch some other people set off
fireworks...
|7.4.05 @ 10:32PM|#
Re-reading the Declaration Of Independence just now, I decided I
really wanna do something brave, smart, effective, and patriotic
someday. Sure hope I can come up with something good.
I really love this country. I just wish its political leaders acted
like they really understood or cared what it is that makes it so
special.
|7.4.05 @ 10:37PM|#
Let's not shit ourselves; America has never completely lived
up to our own ideals. The trick is to keep fighting, despite the
essentially discouraging nature of the enterprise.
Exactly right. That, to me, is what this country is about.
|7.4.05 @ 10:47PM|#
I found reading the comments here quite depressing. It seldom
happens, but I agree w/ joe.
Look, no one is more disgusted by the Raich and
Kelo SCOTUS decisions that I am. And no one more
revolted by the obscenity that is the so-called "war" on
drugs.
But where is it better, in time or geography? (OK, possibly, the
Netherlands.) Here, in the U.S., we can say what we like (except 60
days before an election). That is almost unheard of, and all over
Europe people get prosecuted for criticizing religion or ethnic
groups. Blasphemy remains a crime in the U.K.
The U.S. needs to go further to realize the ideals of its founding.
There have been set backs, absolutely.
Yet, I love this country, not out of mindless nationalistic fervor,
but out of sheer gratitude to the cosmos that I was born in a place
and era more free than any other. That is no -- no
-- little thing.
|7.4.05 @ 11:20PM|#
MayDay:
Flag waving by itself isn't fascism. What do you call using lies
and manipulation to con the populace into backing the invasion and
occupation of a country and then keeping it whipped into a
patriotic fervor by maudlin appeals to support the brave
solders--many of whom were conned into enlisting?
It's the militarization of American society combined with the flag
waving that smells of fascism, at least, to anybody who has had any
experience of it.
|7.4.05 @ 11:26PM|#
Americans are so quiescent toward their state. Where are the mass protests? I guess everybody is watching TV.
|7.4.05 @ 11:33PM|#
Melissa writes: What do you call using lies and manipulation
to con the populace into backing the invasion and occupation of a
country
There were no lies. Everyone, world-over, thought Saddam still had
a viable WMD program.
Saddam Hussein was a genocidal tyrant who harbored at least one
terrorist from the '93 WTC bombing, and he tried to assassinate a
former U.S. President. These are acts of war. Further, liberating
Iraq from Saddam has indeed been costly, but so was WWII and ending
Hitler/Mussolini/Hirohito. The U.S. then was held back from acting
when it should have in that war, by isolationists. Had we joined
Europe earlier, to defend against fascism, the ultimate cost would
have been less. A lesson there, no?
Bush is moving to stabilize the Middle East and destroy despotisms
there. It remains to be seen whether he will succeed. If he does,
history's verdict will be that he was far-sighted and brilliant. If
not, not. It all depends on the result.
|7.4.05 @ 11:41PM|#
This country rules. You're just being ornery.
The excess of ruling is exactly why we're ornery, joe.
|7.4.05 @ 11:59PM|#
Fireworks: $365
Alcohol: $85
Ambulance Service: $750
My obnoxious neighbor's celebration of freedom: Pointless
|7.5.05 @ 12:01AM|#
Fire Bad-
Question: How can this situation be remedied without using the
power of the state?
Maybe by having smoke detectors and fire extinguishers on hand in
your apartment? Make sure you're insured and that you have valuable
documents and keepsakes in a fireproof container? Making sure your
landlord keeps the building up to fire code? (Oh, but that involves
the state.) In short, worry about protecting your interests without
trying to coerce other people. You can make your own domicile a
fireproof fortress - you don't need to worry about handcuffing
everyone in the neighborhood. This will be more positive and
effective, because your domicile is just as likely to catch fire
from any other of a thousand reasons besides drunken knuckleheads
with fireworks.
But notice - with certain types of people the first impulse is to
always try and tell other people what to do. And to try and bend
them to your arrogant will.
chthus-
The question is, how to we get the state less invovled in our
lives and try to regain a sense of no-state enforced, civic
responsibility that has been replaced by the wanton disregard for
any authority, much like the mindset of a spoiled child?
That's it, everyone without the same amount of deference to the
same authority figures and institutions that you kowtow to needs to
be shown the way. And the "spoiled child" crack is a prize-winner,
sort of like the colonial powers and the slaveowners - any of the
aboriginal and slave populations that they oppressed were always
"childlike" and "primitive". It's a remarkably cowardly way to
condescend - try to marginalize someone as a "spoiled child" to
stop the debate so you won't have to learn that there's a good
chance that you're wrong. Don't bother with the facts or arguments,
just put a false label on them to try and get what you want.
|7.5.05 @ 12:09AM|#
scape-
Fireworks: $365
Alcohol: $85
Ambulance Service: $750
My obnoxious neighbor's celebration of freedom:
Pointless
Right, so are hundreds of other dangerous or risky things that
people do.
When are you going to go door to door banning motorcycles?
Cigarettes? Aspirin? Mountain climbing? Whitewater rafting?
Football? Boxing?
What's next, omniscent and all-powerful one?
|7.5.05 @ 12:12AM|#
Melissa cryptically writes: Mona:
There are never any lies.
Ok.
Now that we are past the chic cynicism, what of the reality of
Saddam's Iraq, the ME, and Islamic jihadists who kill Europeans,
Asians and Americans? Aborting jihadist -- secular or religious --
efforts does not serve humanity?
|7.5.05 @ 12:19AM|#
Mona-
You're dreaming. With all the sanctions and no-fly zones Saddam was
a shadow of his former self. He didn't even have effective access
to large parts of his own country.
The Downing Street memo states that there was a nearly non-existent
case for war that needed to be "sexed up".
Assume for a minute that the current administration is able to
militarily topple every "despotism" in the middle east and install
a democracy. What happens if and when religious hardliners are
elected? Keep toppling until someone is elected that the US
approves of?
|7.5.05 @ 12:26AM|#
CAT writes: Mona-You're dreaming.
Perhaps. Saddam did not harbor a terrorist from the '93 WTC
bombing? He did not attempt to assassinate a former U.S. President?
He was not refusing to allow UN inspectors confirm -- contrary to
what nearly everyone everywhere thought -- that he had no WMD
programs? He was not terrorizing his population and piling them in
mass graves? He was a fair and democratic-minded guy building
stability in a region that was very friendly toward Americans?
|7.5.05 @ 1:01AM|#
The Independence Day feast this year was good, even if it had to
run for cover. Barbecued turkey drumsticks are great. Had the
weather cooperated, I wanted to roast potatoes in the coals,
clambake-style, what, growing up, we called "mickeys." So I hadda
cut them up and steam them in the rice cooker. They were still
good. Sweet corn on the cob is hard to beat. In a bit I'm heading
out for chocolate frozen custard.
Note that all foods originate in the Americas. Perhaps next year
I'll grill some bison or beefalo. A dessert made from blueberries,
cranberries, pumpkin or concord grapes are other
possibilities.
Chez kevrob is also working its way through a selection of
local microbrews. I do hope that new science about moderate amounts
of alcohol helping to keep your arteries clear works, as I think
I've exceeded my yearly allotment of butter and salt.
|7.5.05 @ 1:05AM|#
But, Mona, When Saddam was gassing Kurds, Rumsfeld was shaking his hand. Saddam was no threat. Think oil. Think power.
|7.5.05 @ 1:26AM|#
Melissa,
So...Are you here to provide thoughtful, honest and friendly
criticism and advice on ways to advance the individual liberties of
Americans while reducing corruption, dishonesty and lawlessness of
our elected officials?
Or are you just here to gloat over and chide the "trigger-happy,
unilateralist, colonialist, fascist, yankee, cowboys"?
|7.5.05 @ 2:15AM|#
Perhaps. Saddam did not harbor a terrorist from the '93 WTC
bombing? He did not attempt to assassinate a former U.S. President?
He was not refusing to allow UN inspectors confirm -- contrary to
what nearly everyone everywhere thought -- that he had no WMD
programs? He was not terrorizing his population and piling them in
mass graves? He was a fair and democratic-minded guy building
stability in a region that was very friendly toward
Americans?
Most of those things occurred years ago, with the exception of some
of the oppression, which was ongoing. Why didn't we immediately
invade when those occurred? And there are at least a dozen
countries that engage in similar human rights abuses, why haven't
we invaded them?
As far as the inspections go if I remember correctly there was some
movement just before we invaded. Perhaps he was jerking us around.
But he couldn't have been doing much productive work on WMDs if he
had to play games dodging inspectors, spies, and satellites all the
time. (In addition to the aforementioned "no-fly" zones, which cut
off access to large parts of his own country.)
No - he wasn't a democratic-minded guy that was friendly to
Americans, but that doesn't mean we needed to spend enormous
amounts of money and lives invading to depose him.
You didn't answer my previous question: What if the current
administration militarily deposes all "despotisms" in the middle
east and installs democratic governments and they elect religious
hardliners? Or are marked by constant strife and instability?
|7.5.05 @ 2:45AM|#
CAT: You might be right. It might be the case that Bush II coming to power after 9/11 and redressing attacks late, mean nothing. Or, they convince jihadists one cannot attack us with impunity. The historical verdict is out.
|7.5.05 @ 2:49AM|#
Criminy. Why is joe the only poster who makes any sense on this
thread? What's wrong with you folks, really?
Bleh.
|7.5.05 @ 4:10AM|#
kwais: Thank You.
This thread has shown me how I agree with nearly everyone somehow,
and the difference between getting the point and being
argumentative.
|7.5.05 @ 8:44AM|#
Melissa:
When is that oil from Iraq scheduled to arrive, anyway? I'm sick of
these high gas prices. Almost as much as I'm sick of idiots
claiming that this was a "war for oil", without even the wildest
conspiracy theory to back up that hare-brained theory. Bad war,
yes, but a deliberate act of evil for gains of power and oil? No
proof except that created by your own delusions and hatred.
|7.5.05 @ 8:52AM|#
I'm with joe on this one. F a bunch of you people. A little
perspective would be nice. We are, as a national population, among
the freest people ever to walk the earth. We have plenty of
problems, but they are not especially bad in the large scope of
history. Republicans are not fascists. Democrats are not
communists. Current incarnations of the former believe that certain
psychotic behavior can be best addressed with military power, while
current incarnations of the latter would like us to look like
Europe. Mind you, the complaint is that we have more economic
freedom than Europeans. As complaints go, well, I can live with
that one.
We have created the greatest engine of economic growth in world
history. That is nothing to sneeze at. We have problems like too
much food for our children to eat.
C'mon guys. There is plenty to celebrate.
Adam|7.5.05 @ 10:00AM|#
America...
America...
America, FUCK YEAH!
Coming again, to save the mother fucking day yeah,
America, FUCK YEAH!
Freedom is the only way yeah,
Terrorist your game is through cause now you have to answer
too,
America, FUCK YEAH!
So lick my butt, and suck on my balls,
America, FUCK YEAH!
What you going to do when we come for you now,
it�s the dream that we all share; it�s the hope for tomorrow
FUCK YEAH!
McDonalds, FUCK YEAH!
Wal-Mart, FUCK YEAH!
The Gap, FUCK YEAH!
Baseball, FUCK YEAH!
NFL, FUCK, YEAH!
Rock and roll, FUCK YEAH!
The Internet, FUCK YEAH!
Slavery, FUCK YEAH!
FUCK YEAH!
Starbucks, FUCK YEAH!
Disney world, FUCK YEAH!
Porno, FUCK YEAH!
Valium, FUCK YEAH!
Reeboks, FUCK YEAH!
Fake Tits, FUCK YEAH!
Sushi, FUCK YEAH!
Taco Bell, FUCK YEAH!
Rodeos, FUCK YEAH!
Bed bath and beyond (Fuck yeah, Fuck yeah)
Liberty, FUCK YEAH!
White Slips, FUCK YEAH!
The Alamo, FUCK YEAH!
Band-aids, FUCK YEAH!
Las Vegas, FUCK YEAH!
Christmas, FUCK YEAH!
Immigrants, FUCK YEAH!
Popeye, FUCK YEAH!
Demarcates, FUCK YEAH!
Republicans (republicans)
(fuck yeah, fuck yeah)
Sportsmanship
Books
Mike H.|7.5.05 @ 10:18AM|#
Man, the bitterness certainly is strong with many of you.
Get a fuckin' grip.
|7.5.05 @ 10:20AM|#
For everyone who thinks America is done and over, maybe you
would enjoy this potential future?
http://xboxmovies.teamxbox.com/xbox/2124/Shattered-Union-Trailer/
|7.5.05 @ 10:53AM|#
For libertarians, you all sound a lot like ordinary right-wing national chauvinists.
|7.5.05 @ 10:54AM|#
March 09, 2005
American troops are being taught to recognise that the Union Jack
means British troops in an attempt to stop them firing on allied
vehicles following thirty two 'blue on blue' attacks in the past
year (GILES PENFOUND / CROWN COPYRIGHT / GETTY IMAGES)
US troops get training to avoid friendly-fire attacks on
British
By Laura Peek and Michael Evans, Defence Editor
AMERICAN soldiers in Iraq are being given �anti-fratricide�
training to reduce the number of friendly fire attacks against
British and other coalition troops, The Times has learnt.
Thirty-two �blue-on-blue� attacks on British and other coalition
vehicles have been logged in the past twelve months in southern
Iraq, Britain�s area of responsibility.
The training was revealed as Washington and Rome announced a joint
inquiry into the killing last week of an Italian secret agent when
US troops opened fire on the car in which he was accompanying a
freed hostage to Baghdad airport.
The inquiry was announced by General George Casey, commander of
multinational forces in Iraq, after Gianfranco Fini, the Italian
Foreign Minister, had highlighted differences between the American
and Italian versions of the incident.
Nicola Calipari, an experienced hostage negotiator, was killed as
he protected Giuliana Sgrena, a journalist, who had been held for a
month.
On the same day, a 30-year-old Bulgarian machinegunner was shot and
killed in a second friendly fire incident, for which US forces were
also blamed.
The vast majority of the 32 reported incidents involved American
troops opening fire at night-time against suspected insurgents who
turned out to be friendly forces, on or near the main route through
southern Iraq used by US convoys.
Military officials in Basra, where the British-controlled
Multinational Division (Southeast) is based, said that the �vehicle
blue-on-blue incidents� in the period from February last year had
resulted in ten minor injuries. �There have been no fatalities,�
one said.
The officials declined to spell out the injuries received or
whether they were all British soldiers, but they confirmed that
most of the �firing nationalities� were American. A small number of
incidents involved Romanian and Bulgarian troops opening
fire.
US commanders were so worried that their men were shooting at the
British because they failed to recognise the Union Jack or other
distinguishing military markings that, in an unprecedented move,
they asked the British Army to supply vehicles, men and flags to
teach their soldiers what their allies looked like.
It is understood that the British supplied several �snatch�
armoured Land Rovers, the most common vehicle used by British
troops on patrol and senior non-commissioned officers, with Union
Jacks, to instruct the Americans.
This was in addition to a detailed presentation already provided by
the British for all incoming US troops, which outlines what a
British soldier looks like, what type of vehicle he drives and what
other coalition troops in southern Iraq drive around in.
When asked by The Times about the special anti-fratricide training,
which was requested in January, a spokesman for US Army Forces
Command at Fort McPherson in Atlanta, Georgia, said: �It is
understandable we are doing this. We all want to reduce the number
of friendly fire incidents. Checkpoints are very dangerous places.
It has come into the headlines with the Italian and Bulgarian, but
there are more incidents that do not get publicity and probably do
not end so badly.�
British troops have been given warning against approaching American
convoys because of the risk of being shot at. They are ordered to
slow down to a snail�s pace as they pull alongside a convoy. They
are told to display the Union Jack and shout that they are British.
�The problem is that most of these incidents happen in the dark,� a
military source said.
A British officer in Basra said: �The Americans can be pretty
pumped-up. Sometimes they fire in broad daylight when we are
travelling at two miles per hour, shouting that we are British out
of the window and waving the Union Jack. If they shoot, our drill
is to slam on the brakes and race in the opposite direction.�
|7.5.05 @ 10:59AM|#
Look at me, everyone! I'm anti-intellectual! I'm xenophobic! I'm
a FASCIST!
Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!
(see, you can tell I'm a xenophobe, because of how much I like
living in a city with lots of immigrants)
|7.5.05 @ 11:08AM|#
Well, I'm reading on the 5th of July, but I'm glad I wasn't here yesterday. Akira, Jennifer, Sandy, etc., etc. -- would it have killed to hold the "Amerikkka sucks" bitching and moaning for 24 hours? Sure, I hate just about everybody running this country, but I'm a libertarian, so that's to be expected. This is still the greatest goddamn place on earth, and it wouldn't kill you to let us enjoy it for a day without pissing all over our party. Have some BBQ, listen to some rock 'n roll, drink some bourbon, read some Mark Twain, play your favorite American-invented sport, and chill the fuck out.
|7.5.05 @ 11:13AM|#
Steve-
If I didn't like this country, I wouldn't give a damn what happens
to it. Which Mark Twain works should I read to reinforce the
"America: Fuck Yeah!" motif? Would it be "Huck Finn," where Twain
talks about the hypocritical evils of American racism? "The Man who
Corrupted Hadleyburg?" "The Damned Human Race?" "Innocents Abroad?"
Mark Twain's one of my favorite authors, but he's NOT the guy to
read if you want to feel warm and fuzzy about people and
institutions.
|7.5.05 @ 11:23AM|#
Jennifer,
I'd hardly characterize my post as "America: Fuck Yeah!"
Stop letting the bulletheads tell you what patriotism is, Jennifer,
and find out what it really is.
drf|7.5.05 @ 11:24AM|#
c'mon. quit feeding the troll.
this was the same melissa who jumped on someone for talking about
"limited government" with a sophomoric screed about "limited
powers" vs "limited size". (and the limited size argument was
incorrect)
just quit feeding.
86 the protectionism here.
86 PATRIOT
86 wars of aggression and misunderstood jingoism
86 the UN
free trade. individual liberty. stay out of my bedroom and
boardroom and billfold.
so there.
and joe. no. you're a miserable kommie :)
right (at least that's what a few types around here assert.
grin)?
cheers,
drf
|7.5.05 @ 11:28AM|#
Joe-
I'd say pointing out flaws and things that need improvement IS
patriotism. I have no kids, but I'm the honorary aunt of a number
of friends' children, and I don't want to have the following
conversation twenty or thirty years from now:
POPPET: Aunt Jennifer, why didn't your generation DO anything when
you saw America turning into a totalitarian hellhole?
ME: Well, sweetie, we were too busy waving little American flags
and yelling, "We're number one!"
It's like I've said before: say you're giving your beloved
wife/husband/significant other a backrub, and on the part of the
back that she can't see or feel for herself you notice a hideously
ugly malignant melanoma. What do you do?
A. Say nothing, because you love this person too much to admit she
could have any imperfection, let alone one as ugly as a melanoma;
or
B. Raise hell about it, because you love this person too much to
let them die from a problem that's easy to treat if caught early
enough?
|7.5.05 @ 12:30PM|#
Lord knows I point out flaws, Jennifer. But I do it out of love.
You, on the other hand, seem determined to go out of your way to
present your observations as refutations of patriotism.
I'm looking at my American flag waving right now. Actually, it's
just sort of dangling there...there it goes. And that doesn't stop
me from trying to right this ship of state before it goes off the
rails and over a cliff.
You couldn't find a single nice thing to say about your country -
YOUR COUNTRY, whether you admit it or not - on the day of its
birth?
|7.5.05 @ 12:36PM|#
Joe-
In my first post on this thread I said I'm better off here than in
North Korea or Saudi Arabia. Faint praise to be sure, but after a
week that started with having to pass through a drunk-driving check
and tell my business to a cop, and ended with the TSA treating me
like a borderline criminal for wanting to fly on a plane, I wasn't
feeling my most patriotic. (But you'll be glad to know that,
wherever the hell Osama bin Laden IS hiding these days, he sure as
hell wasn't in my carry-on bag.)
What does your staring at the flag have to do with anything?
|7.5.05 @ 1:33PM|#
I actually did go out and get some sun on the Fourth. Yesterday
was Dollar Dog Day at Jacobs' Field, so I ate two while watching
the Cleveland Indians mop the floor with the Detroit Tigers.
(Detroit Sucks!) Also attended the obligatory cookout and municipal
fireworks display.
Hooray for fattening foods, alcohol, the National Anthem, baseball,
and bright, sparkely things that make loud "boom" noises!!!
It seemed to me that all these buffons where celebrating is the
ability to shoot off fireworks and stuff themselves with burgers
and bratwurst.
Rock n' Roll Baby! Freedom of Expression!
|7.5.05 @ 1:49PM|#
I was flying the flag for the last month - I like the color it
brings to the landscape. I took it down when I heard Bush exhort us
to display the flag on the 4th. The way this country is going, this
mild protest may someday earn a jail sentence.
There are a lot of great things about America - but the current
trend is terrifying. The freedom we celebrate on Independence Day
is rapidly eroding. I just want to be left alone. I am disgusted at
the layer upon layer of governing bodies regulating every action I
take. I detest being taxed at every turn, and having most of these
hard-earned dollars ending up in the wallets of wealthy bastards
who pull the strings on our puppet politicians. I do not want
religious beliefs shoved down the throats of my innocent and
impressionable children. I do not want my country slaughtering
people for no valid reason.
I want independence from my country - and everyone in it that wants
to impose their will by force and economic sanctions.
|7.5.05 @ 2:00PM|#
Ssssshhhhh, Crushinator. You shouldn't insult America on its birthday--you might hurt its feelings.
|7.5.05 @ 3:01PM|#
The spirit of the Declaration formalized by the Constitution is
eroding?
I imagine my father enjoyed the freedom to his own section of the
lunch counter, that my great grandmother enjoyed the freedom to
watch powerless on election day, that further back in history we
were free from the concerns of finding employment because our
owners just told us what to do. We used to be free to suffer from
mostly-forgotten diseases now cured through the efforts selfish
individualists exploiting the capitalist system. I really feel the
loss of freedom as I suffer from crippling indecision choosing with
whom I associate, where I live, how to worship, where to sell my
labor, and even which mouthwash to buy.
Yes, the modern USA is just a really big prison. Damn those
Founding Fathers who built this gaol! And cruel fate for locking me
inside.
joe: Woo!
|7.5.05 @ 3:06PM|#
Dynamist-
Yes, things are better than they were in the old days. Problem is,
in the old days, while we were never as perfectly free as we
claimed to be, we were getting closer all the time. Now it looks
like we're getting further away. The Constitutional amendments
being debated nowadays won't give rights to greater numbers of
people; they'll, respectively, enshrine gay folk as second-class
citizens and outlaw a type of freedom of expression. Our own
PRESIDENT, Jesus-jumped-up-Christ-on-acid, makes comments like
"You're either with us or with the terrorists." We're starting wars
on false pretenses, and labelling as traitors those who point that
out. How are these supposed to be viewed as positive trends?
|7.5.05 @ 3:25PM|#
Look at me, everyone! I'm anti-intellectual! I'm xenophobic!
I'm a FASCIST! -joe
Cool! I knew that you'd eventually come around to the proper way of
thinking. And to think that I was only accused of being an
"ordinary right-wing national chauvinist" by Melissa. Sheesh! I
feel left out. I can only aspire to someday become "a victim of the
anti-intellectual, xenophobic strain [and/or sentimental strain] in
American culture"...
|7.5.05 @ 3:29PM|#
Jennifer, I mentioned Twain just because he's a great American
writer, not because he wrote "America: Fuck Yeah!" stuff. On the
4th of July, I try to think of the things I like about this
country. Hence the bourbon, the BBQ and the rock 'n' roll. I can
even admire the Bill of Rights without thinking about the way it's
been treated recently.
Since today is the 5th, please go ahead and bitch about America. I
just feel a little sorry for you (and I question your grip on
reality), if your reaction to the 4th of July is to think about
everything that's wrong with the country.
I disagree with joe about almost everything, and like him, I also
disagree with the current administration about most things. I think
we both realize, though, that there's still a helluva a lot more
that's right with America than wrong with it. OK, that was a very
inelegant way to say what I'm trying to say, but maybe you get the
point.
|7.5.05 @ 3:35PM|#
No, Steve, I do get your point. And yes, there's a lot of good
left in America, but ironically enough, the more we focus
exclusively on the good, the more likely we are to lose it.
I don't know how much of this thread you've read, but I posted
earlier that two Fridays ago, driving home from work, I had to stop
through a drunk-driving checkpoint and answer various questions
(like, "Where are you coming from?" and "Where are you going?")
that were NONE OF THE COP'S DAMNED BUSINESS, especially since he
had no reason to suspect me of any crime. I can't do a simple thing
like drive home from work without having to answer to the police
anymore? And then last week I had a business trip, with my first
post-TSA flights, and discovered that the simple act of trying to
board a plane makes me a criminal suspect who is not worthy of
respectful treatment. (But neither were any of the other
passengers.)
No, these experiences of mine certainly weren't horrible, and I'm
not going to have nightmares from them, but they're no damned
reason to celebrate.
|7.5.05 @ 4:14PM|#
Just like any birthday, the 4th of July provokes one to ponder
where we have been, where we are now, and where we are headed. The
bitterness expressed in this thread is not directed towards where
we have been but rather the current direction of this great
country. The USA used to be a beacon of hope; a shining example of
free enterprise, personal freedom, and government by the people. We
have overcome many obstacles and repaired many of our flaws
(slavery, limited suffrage, environmental destruction, prohibition,
capitalist exploitation, our horrible treatment of Native
Americans, to name a few). However, we seem to have lost our way
and are backsliding.
America is like a child that failed to actualize its full
potential. The country was born against the most unlikely odds. We
learned fast, grew big and strong, and saved the world from
totalitarian zealots. Now our beloved child has begun to hang out
with the wrong crowd - thugs, thieves, and bullies. We are now
reviled by the world that once respected us for our integrity. The
Robber Barons have returned to power. We have evolved into a nanny
state that does not trust the individual to be personally
responsible and make their own decisions. Privacy, private
property, and individual freedoms are under constant attack. We are
shackling our sons and daughters with an unbearable debt that will
precipitate America's economic decline. We have the highest
incarceration rate in the world. Murderers and burglars are
released early to make room in the prisons for folks who want to
smoke a little weed or play poker. We have got our priorities all
screwed up.
So go ahead Steve and joe, and wave your pretty flags and admire
America's little league trophies on the bookshelf. Meanwhile, I
refuse to gloss over her problems will be working hard to reverse
the current trend towards mediocrity.
|7.5.05 @ 5:18PM|#
I just wanted to add (to clarify my position) that I celebrate the Fourth of July not in the name of what the present state of the country is, but what it once was, how it came to be that way, and what was intended to be. In no way do I celebrate Independence Day as a present-day "I-lurve-mah-cuntry Patriotic Holiday", but I celebrate it from more of a historical appreciation of what freedom can really mean and why it's worth fighting for. That is a good enough reason for me to get wasted and have a good time with friends and family in the middle of summer. I do more or less agree with Crushinator, although I'm perhaps not quite as fatalistic/despondent about the current state of our country. I don't think celebrating a holiday on a designated "National Holiday" is fascist -- it's just a day that the nation set aside to celebrate being a fuggin' nation. (What are you protesting? Some of you are ridiculously belligerent, reminding me of the political fringe lunatics in "Life of Brian" who are arguing for men's rights to have babies.) I'm not glossing over our country's failings or problems in any way by celebrating on Independence Day; I'm just not letting a bunch of "totalitarian zealots", "Robber Barons", and "thugs, thieves, and bullies" run my life and ruin my fun, especially on one of my favorite holidays. That's just obsessive. You only have so many years on the planet; why waste every day pouting? Whether you like it or don't, the fact that you're not going to see the fireworks that your tax dollars paid for and enjoy a beer with good company is not going to change anything, and no one will be affected by your non-participation in the holiday. Except that means more hot dogs, lawn space, and keg beer for me.
|7.5.05 @ 5:27PM|#
I went to take pictures of the fireworks at Lenox Square,
Atlanta. Knowing the Simon Properties guards, I knew I had to stay
on public property (in my case Peachtree Road) to not harassed.
Still, that's exactly what Atlanta Police did to me, stopping by a
few times to make sure that my cameras were pointed at the sky,
because I was not allowed to take pictures of people, as soon as
they found out I wasn't an official journalist. The cops didn't
like the fact that I was still using film cameras and thus was
unable to show them the shots I've taken, either, but at least they
didn't arrest me or take my equipment.
Now I'm in the process of getting some kind of journalistic ID, so
that I can work on my current project - shots of the sky, as
reflected off different Atlanta buildings...
|7.5.05 @ 5:49PM|#
Well said, Smacky!
I fall into the trap of taking myself too seriously. Guilty on all
counts.
I have four kids. Of course we enjoyed the holiday. I would never
yield my share of the food, booze, fireworks, and fun. Life is too
short to be miserable. I am not pouting, but I am depressed that my
kids will not have it as good as I did. You are absolutely correct
that freedom is worth fighting for. I came away from this year's
Independence Day celebration with a renewed resolve to make a
difference. I want my kids to grow up in a world where they do not
have to be scared of the cops, and where they feel empowered to
pursue any dream they want to pursue.
I guess I am most disappointed with my own paltry efforts to
restore lost liberties.
|7.5.05 @ 6:05PM|#
I guess I am most disappointed with my own paltry efforts to
restore lost liberties.
Crushinator,
I know the feeling of helplessness and/or inefficacy that you
describe. It does not make a person proud to experience that
feeling. Frequently on the 4th (and many other days of the year) I
get that way, too, and I don't even have any next-of-kin. The fact
that you care enough to bitch about it is a step in the right
direction, though. I was not trying to defend the status quo in my
last post, only reminding the individuals that are chronically hung
up on current affairs that there is life outside of perceived
political issues. Although I've said in the past that discussion is
essentially futile once it reaches a certain point, it is also key
if anything is to be accomplished. So basically I'm all for
protest, and even better: doing something about a problem, but
bitterness doesn't help anything.
[impersonation]
If you don't grill animal byproducts outdoors and set off dangerous
explosives in your yard this summer then the terrorists have
won!
[/impersonation]
|7.5.05 @ 7:35PM|#
"So go ahead Steve and joe, and wave your pretty flags and
admire America's little league trophies on the bookshelf.
Meanwhile, I refuse to gloss over her problems will be working hard
to reverse the current trend towards mediocrity."
Um, have you been here before? I'm not generally known for my
efforts to gloss over problems.
How pathetic and shallow of you, in an "It's all just bullshit,
man!" sort of way, to believe you can't be patriotic and a
dissenter. Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.
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