New at Reason

Tim Cavanaugh | June 28, 2005

Cathy Young throws some cold water on the flag-burning amendment.

Comments

drf|6.28.05 @ 10:18AM|#

Thanks, Cathy. Good article as usual.

A buddy of mine who runs a Danish (!) libertarian site would get flack for wearing a Che t-shirt with the sentence "He DESERVED to die". This shirt insulted many a leftie he was around. One such leftie insisted on wearing a hammer and sickle, an image, also protected from desecration, under which more died than under the hated and feared Swastika - Two symbols Cathy brings up in her article.

Ours should remain being a symbol for good, kinda like the Codpiece of Righteousness, where we resepect its meaning to us. Forced "respect" becomes empty gestures. People need to think about what they're doing. Forced ritual for the flag is a sure way to generate contempt for it, and it's a sure way to create cynicism for the political process.

(There are more connections than just the ones Tim mentions above - it's an interesting acid test to see where and when people start getting insulted and, ahem, pull out)

drf|6.28.05 @ 10:20AM|#

Sorry about that - Tim doesn't mention any connections. Jacob does below. whoops.

KipEsquire|6.28.05 @ 10:21AM|#

The article says two-thirds of the states need to ratify. It's three-fourths.

Here's my blogpost about the amendment.

|6.28.05 @ 10:58AM|#

And to pick another nit, shouldn't the second to last paragraph read "Warner infuriated his interrogator"?

Excellent work, Cathy.

|6.28.05 @ 11:08AM|#

Cathy, a very good article, and drf, your comments are spot on.

I have to wonder, under such a law, would it be illegal to create a simulation of a burning flag? If one were to use PhotoShop to create a still image, or AfterEffects to create a video that shows a burning flag, would these legislators consider that desecration of the flag?

What if someone were to make a flag with a different number of stripes, the outline of 50 mice instead of stars, or a color scheme of purple, yellow, and green? What if they set that on fire?

After all, in any of those situations, the implied political statement is exactly the same.

|6.28.05 @ 11:27AM|#

I kinda like the potential in this amendment. For example, callling the cops when I spot a cake in a bakery that looks like a flag, or some old republican dumbass who doesn't fold his flag properly.

Or making citizens arrests of flag-crazy faux-patriot douchebags when you spot them flying tattered flags on their SUV's.

I can't remember the last time I owned, displayed, or gave a shit about a flag, so no matter WHAT kind of desecration law they pass, I'd never violate it. But I know who COULD get in trouble under these laws: uber-patriotic flag waving assholes!!!

So they can ban flags, regulate 'em or do whatever the hell they want with 'em. If that results in a few uber-patriot dickheads rotting away in federal prison for 20 years under some fucked up "mandatory minimum" law because they folded their flag in half insted of corner-to-corner, then fine, fuck 'em. As ye reap, so shall ye sow.

[the preceding was merely an expression of my contempt for faux patriot flag waving douchebags, and not an endorsement of bans, regulations, or federal minimum sentences]

|6.28.05 @ 11:33AM|#

"If passed by the Senate, it would still have to be ratified by two-thirds of the states to become law."

I think it takes 3/4 of state legislators to ratify a constitutional amendment, not 2/3 as you suggest.

|6.28.05 @ 11:42AM|#

Ooh, mediageek, what if the flag was made out of hemp that was grown in the USA? Would it then be destroying something in accordance with our wonderful new interstate commerce ruling, or desecration?

|6.28.05 @ 11:42AM|#

Jon Stewart had a great line about this. "Since most flag burning happens overseas, banning flag burning is about as useful as banning use of the metric system" (I know it's used in science, lay off).

independent worm,
You forgot about the idiot that has the car/home flag that's 7 years old and stays up rain or shine and is faded and tattered. Or God forbid, keeps the flag up after dusk without having a light shine on it.

I have to wonder, under such a law, would it be illegal to create a simulation of a burning flag? If one were to use PhotoShop to create a still image, or AfterEffects to create a video that shows a burning flag, would these legislators consider that desecration of the flag?

One would hope they give that image the same deference they give simulated kiddie porn and keep it legal.

|6.28.05 @ 1:58PM|#

Ooh, mediageek, what if the flag was made out of hemp that was grown in the USA? Would it then be destroying something in accordance with our wonderful new interstate commerce ruling, or desecration?

Whichever gives the state the most power over the individual, I'm sure. I have to wonder, if you set the flag on fire, and it is completely consumed, and you are arrested, could they also charge you with destruction of evidence?

One would hope they give that image the same deference they give simulated kiddie porn and keep it legal.

We can hope, I suppose. Here's another one: what if I don't buy an actual fabric flag, but print one out on the giant plotter in the next room. If it's a computer generated image of the flag printed on giant paper at lifesize dimensions, can I legally burn that?

|6.28.05 @ 4:20PM|#

From the article:

"Yes, burning the flag is an offensive, outrageous, and stupid way to express your criticism of the US government."

Why?
I've always hated that line of logic, stated as if it is obvious. It's not obvious to me. I feel no more offended by the burning of a flag than I would the burning of a Michael Bolton record. Besides, it weakens the argument: "It's horrible and offensive and evil but I wouldn't ban it". Great to have you on our side, thanks. Not.

|6.28.05 @ 4:57PM|#

Dogzilla -- just a little bit of unfortunate CYA scotch-taped into an otherwise excellent piece, in case any right-wing freaks picked this up and tried to dismiss her as some kind of hippie.

On that note, if I see one more antiwar article that contains 8 lines worth of "don't get me wrong, I love America and I'm a patriot and I support the troops and appreciate their noble service to this great nation and blah blah blah" I'm gonna shit in my hat.

The Wine Commonsewer|6.28.05 @ 4:59PM|#

Dogzilla, are you out of your mind?

Burning Michael Bolton records is a million times more fun than burning any flag could ever be.

I never see the flag as a symbol of oppression. Rather it is a symbol of the vision of a few DEAD WHITE GUYS who breathed life into the only country on earth that explicitly recognizes that the individual is supposed to be superior to the state. That doesn't flesh out in practice as well as we would like, but it's a step up from everywhere else and the US is running way ahead of whoever is in second place (that's why we all still live here).

If you insist, as long as you bought and paid for your own flag and you don't set my stuff on fire in the process go ahead and burn it.

But if you light it up on a public street instead of at your own house be prepared to accept the consequences of your behavior. I know several folks who just might decide to slap you upside the head. Some of them are large.

Besides, I don't see how it weakens the argument. It's no different than saying I hate Nazi's but I wouldn't ban swastikas.

The Wine Commonsewer|6.28.05 @ 5:04PM|#

Cathy is right about one other thing.

Who the heck is burning flags anyway?

I'm a fossilized burn-out from the old days when protestors routinely burned flags. You couldn't go a week without hearing about or seeing someone burning Old Glory.

These days I can't remember the last time I was aware of anyone burning a US flag. Except that Pakistani guy a few years ago who was so lame he actually set himself on fire in the process. But that wasn't on US soil.

|6.28.05 @ 5:04PM|#

Besides, it weakens the argument: "It's horrible and offensive and evil but I wouldn't ban it". Great to have you on our side, thanks. Not.

I would disagree. That is exactly the kind of person I want on our side. Since we all have things we find offensive or wrong, making the case that even if one feels that way burning the flag shouldn't be banned, is a message that we need to get across; whether someone should feel that way is irrelevant and not my concern. If the only reason not to ban flag burning is that it's not really that offensive to me, then how do we convince those who do feel offended by it? It seems a more powerful argument when you personally find something offensive but show restraint in your desire to use force to compel others to behave as you would like them to.

The Wine Commonsewer|6.28.05 @ 5:07PM|#

KipEsq

Saw the ad at your site for The Children's Story. What a terrific book. If I believed in mandatory stuff I'd make it mandatory reading for all public school kids.

I actually have a signed first edition hard cover.

|6.28.05 @ 5:08PM|#

My favorite comment about this is by senator Bennet,

"I don't want to amend the Constitution to solve a nonproblem," Mr. Bennett said. "People are not burning the flag. The only time they start is when this amendment gets offered."

It was ironic when they first started destroying our liberties to protect them after september 11, now its just sad.

|6.28.05 @ 5:10PM|#

Who the heck is burning flags anyway? I'm a fossilized burn-out from the old days when protestors routinely burned flags. You couldn't go a week without hearing about or seeing someone burning Old Glory

As if on cue, two kids in Fla. got busted for setting fire to six US flags today.

http://www.local6.com/news/4660589/detail.html

No word yet on how much the local GOP paid them to um... stoke the fires of flagburnophobia down in Hickland.

The Wine Commonsewer|6.28.05 @ 5:27PM|#

Indyworm

That jist figures.

The Wine Commonsewer|6.28.05 @ 5:30PM|#

Indy, but DUDE! They were arrested for burning other people's flags, which is arson.

I woulda shot their asses full of rock salt if they burned my flag. Little fuckheads.

|6.28.05 @ 5:37PM|#

TWC -- can't support burning other people's property. Shoulda burnt their own.

|6.28.05 @ 5:39PM|#

ACtually, i think the arson charge probably has to do with the little community clubhouse thingie. As far as I know, you have to burn a building for it to be arson. Burning portable doesn't count.

Then again, Fla. could have a statute that says damn near anything.

|6.28.05 @ 5:47PM|#

I read somwhere that, nationwide, our country currently suffers from 1 to 5 flag-burning incidents per year.

|6.28.05 @ 5:48PM|#

Just a little taste of John Prine for those of us who miss Gary Gunnels:

While digesting Reader's Digest
In the back of the dirty book store,
A plastic flag with gum on the back
Fell out on the floor.
Well, I picked it up and I went outside
And stuck it on my window shield,
And if I could find ol' Betsy Ross,
I'd tell her how good I feel!

But your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more.
They're already overcrowded
From your dirty little war.
Now Jesus don't like killin'
No matter what the reason's for,
And your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more.

Jason Sonenshein|6.28.05 @ 6:54PM|#

"Ask the men and women who stood on top of the Trade Center," Republican Representative Randy Cunningham of California declared during the House debate. ''Ask them and they will tell you: Pass this amendment."

Rep. Cunningham's remarks are much more offensive than anything Dick Durbin ever said, so why isn't he being hounded into making a half-assed apology on the floor of the House?

|6.28.05 @ 7:55PM|#

Re: Rep. Cunningham's

What a sick bastard! I hadn't heard that, but if he did say that then he should be hounded into more than an apology - how about a resignation? That is disgusting and far more offensive than burning a flag as well. Maybe we need an amendment against the gratuitous and downright revolting invocation of the tragically murdered for political gain?

|6.28.05 @ 7:57PM|#

That should say "Re: Rep. Cunningham's remarks.

In guess in my disgust I got ahead of myself.

|6.28.05 @ 10:22PM|#

Terrific article. Esp liked the Marine bit from 'Nam. I wonder, though, if any of these nutjobs like Rep. Cunningham would even bother to lift a finger if someone lit up a copy of the Constitution.

Probably not. Too busy running it through the crosscut shredder!