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Have You No Sense of Decency Redux?
"Use of Terri Schiavo's Grave Marker a Reprehensible and Repugnant Act says Christian Defense Coalition," according to the latest press release from the so-called Christian Defense Coalition. The alleged outrage?
Terri Schiavo's husband had her death date listed as February 25, 1990 (when her brain died) instead of March 31, 2005 (when her heart stopped). The best medical evidence available and numerous determinations by various state and federal courts found that Terri did unfortunately die way back in 1990.
When will these disgusting, self-righteous ghouls let poor Terri Schiavo rest in peace?
|6.21.05 @ 12:22PM|#
Never. It's way too much fun being outraged about something that's none of their business than to examine their own idiocy.
Jeff|6.21.05 @ 12:30PM|#
Propaganda idea:
Take a high-rez cat scan image of Schiavo's dried shrivled brain
sitting in her skull cavity. Make notes as to where certain brain
fuctions used to reside.
Underneath it print the words "Human Dignity?"
I hope these christian defense people spend the last decade of
their lives tied to machines, each prayer to their god
reverberating through the plastic tubes plugged into assorted
orifices.
They are monsters.
|6.21.05 @ 12:31PM|#
it's too bad the husband can't sue them as private citizens (jeb
and co, i mean).
it's also too bad his life has been marked by this bitterness, etc
etc. it's not going to help him, though i certainly don't begrudge
him is tonic.
|6.21.05 @ 12:31PM|#
Although I don't care what they put on her tombstone, the fact is that brain death (no brain activity at all, which means that there is no spontaneous respiration and no reaction to any stimulus) is the legal equivalent of death. Schiavo was in a persistent vegetative state, not brain dead (if she was brain dead she would have had to be on a ventilator in order to breathe). A person in a persistent vegetative state is, for legal purposes, still alive
|6.21.05 @ 12:39PM|#
nurse: We can't let such details get in the way of Bailey's (et al.) sense of righteousness.
|6.21.05 @ 12:39PM|#
A nurse,
Are you 'a nurse' or 'a lawyer?' Because you seem to be combining
medical diagnoses and legal opinions. Not that you couldn't be
both, of course. But then, you could also be neither.
|6.21.05 @ 12:46PM|#
Is there anything legally preventing one from putting any date
they want on a grave stone?
Could my headstone have a date of death of Feb 30 ?
Why is it so many people see fit to pipe up about other peoples
business. I mean, now that she is officially gone, what does it
matter what her tombstone said.
|6.21.05 @ 12:53PM|#
Nurse:
Excellent point. My self-righteousness has evidently gotten away
with me too. You're right that the legal standard is still whole
brain death, not cortical death. However, PVS, also sometimes
called cortical death, is the irreversible loss of the part of the
brain controlling judgment, reason, and consciousness. For all
practical purposes, Terri tragically lost her consciousness,
memories, dreams, hopes, and desires way back in 1990. Surely
that's dead enough. I still say, it's high time to let her rest in
peace.
|6.21.05 @ 1:00PM|#
The initial nine comments are truly terrifying. They all sound
like something that Adolf Eichmann would have said.
H.
|6.21.05 @ 1:03PM|#
well, since she's been vegetative since 1990, i would venture to say that she was basically at peace then. i suppose it would depend on what religious beliefs you have... but i think the question now is more one of letting her husband live in peace. and her parents, for that matter. i suppose in a case like this, which touches on the beliefs of a whole country, that won't be possible for a while yet.
|6.21.05 @ 1:03PM|#
You know, since she's been, you know, dead since 1990, who cares
if her body was kept alive, or if the date of death is 2005 or
1990?
It always seemed sketchy to me that Michael Schiavo quickly got on
with the business of finding another chick and settling down, yet
wouldn't marry her until Terry Schiavo's heart stopped (but
certainly not before her body had grown cold). I mean, if she was
dead from 1990 on, their marriage was over, right?
Then again, it's harder to argue next of kin when you're divorced.
Even harder to argue you're entitled to death benefits.
This whole affair has been one ugly page in american history. It's
rare when both sides of the debate are equally repugnant. I think
it's high time we let the issue rest in peace.
gaius marius|6.21.05 @ 1:03PM|#
speaking of, i read jeb bush has started an inquiry into the incident in which schiavo was originally rendered into a coma. apparently, ol' jeb hasn't gotten enough political mileage out of this dead horse.
|6.21.05 @ 1:07PM|#
Apparently the plate on Schiavo's grave was covered in sand.
What the fuck is up with that?
As usual, Shakespear says it best: "Much ado about nothing". Anyone
outside the family/friends who are getting worked up about this,
especially after this point
NEED TO GET A FUCKING LIFE
fyodor|6.21.05 @ 1:10PM|#
W.B. Heffernan, Jr.,
"May I get you a drink?" may also be the kind of thing Adolf
Eichmann would say. The key is, is it the kind of thing
only Adolf Eichmann or someone of like mind would say?
Show us why these comments reflect the same sentiment that we find
objectionable in Adolf Eichmann, and your words will begin to have
some meaning.
|6.21.05 @ 1:10PM|#
Yeah, gaius, I saw that about Jeb Bush. I thought he was supposed to be the smart one. Does he think the idiot christian right is going to coast him into the White House? Moron.
Jeff|6.21.05 @ 1:12PM|#
How does brain death bring us to Eichmann? He got the trains on
time.
If you can't think, you're not much good to yourself, let alone
others. Those who claim that the vegetative need to be kept alive
and "healthy" for dignity's sake are inhuman. I mean really
inhuman. Close to psychopathic.
Who is in Gone With The Wind who stays in bed with the corpse?
|6.21.05 @ 1:16PM|#
Also, the whole idea of the "Christian Defense Coalition" bothers me. Like God needs a stinkin' lobbyist.
gaius marius|6.21.05 @ 1:16PM|#
Does he think the idiot christian right is going to coast
him into the White House?
perhaps he is the smart one. the history of democracy is replete
with examples of noble hero-leaders riding to authority on the
wings of a radical militant cult with a quality propaganda arm and
large war chest.
|6.21.05 @ 1:22PM|#
Rafuzo is right that Bailey et al. have consistently chosen to
ignore the scuzzy side of Schiavo's behavior. The most
reprehensible part of the grave is not the death date, but the
inscription "I kept my promise" - a promise he didn't see fit to
mention to the court until years after 1990, when it became
convenient for him.
Jeff: You're thinking of A Rose for Emily by Faulkner.
Jeff|6.21.05 @ 1:26PM|#
I think its Rhett Butler and his daughter. Jennifer just reread it. She'll know.
|6.21.05 @ 1:27PM|#
i did think that statement on the stone was kind of strange. i would normally assume that the word "I" on someone's tombstone is referring to the person who's actually dead.
|6.21.05 @ 1:33PM|#
Ron: It is not Terri's peace which is disturbed. The living are left with the ambiguous issues her situation brought to our attention. Although my beef was with the legal process, there's more righteousness and ire over where life and death meet. If PVS/cortical death removes the qualities you list, an afflicted person is not completely dead, but perhaps has lost their humanity? Can a no-longer-human body still exercise a legal right to refuse treatment? If humanity is inalienable, how does society resolve the desire of some to care for the incapacitated against the desire of others to "end suffering"? Is the current system sufficient?
|6.21.05 @ 1:35PM|#
It always seemed sketchy to me that Michael Schiavo quickly
got on with the business of finding another chick and settling
down, yet wouldn't marry her until Terry Schiavo's heart stopped
(but certainly not before her body had grown cold). I mean, if she
was dead from 1990 on, their marriage was over, right?
This neglects the fact that Schiavo's parents told him to move on.
And it was eight years before he did it. He spent the previous
eight years working with the parents to earn money for Terri's
care. In fact, the problems didn't start until 2000, when the
Schindlers sued because they believed they hadn't recieved their
fair share of the death benefits. And your second point is moot
because when the whole matter heated up, the State of Florida
became Terri's legan guardian. Michael Schiavo had no way to order
the tube removed because the decision was ultimately out of his
hands. I have no idea what sort of person Michael Schiavo is, but
nobody who went through what he went through deservs this sort of
treatment, and I find it repulsive that it was carried out by
people who just a few years before claimed to love him like a
son.
|6.21.05 @ 2:15PM|#
My mom is actually a friend of the Schindlers and knows a number
of people close to them, including the priest who said Terri's
funeral.
(She is proud of calling Michael Schiavo's attorney a murderer at
one protest outside Terri's hospice. Ick, I know.)
Anyway, the Schindlers don't seem like bad people, just incredibly
misguided and creepily religious, in a zombie kind of way.
|6.21.05 @ 2:18PM|#
Jeff-
Rheet didn't go to bed with his dead daughter; he refused to let
her be buried because "Miss Bonnie's afraid of the dark." The
sleeping-with-a-corpse bit was Faulkner's "A Rose for Emily."
And why *can't* Schiavo sue Jeb? Surely there must be a law which
state that an elected official can't abuse his position to harass a
private citizen.
|6.21.05 @ 2:28PM|#
When will these disgusting, self-righteous ghouls let poor
Terri Schiavo rest in peace?
So, anyone who considers Mr. Schiavo's actions despicable, and says
so, is a disgusting, self-righteous ghoul? And Terri will have no
rest until everyone agrees with you or shuts up?
For someone who urges a tolerant, multicultural outlook on abortion
and stem cell research, you do seem to have a hard time living and
letting live...
|6.21.05 @ 2:31PM|#
Jennifer,
I tend to doubt that, unless it were a old law or part of the FL
constitution. For one, it seems logical. For two, it would have to
be enacted by public officials against their own interest. You know
how often that happens.
|6.21.05 @ 2:56PM|#
This neglects the fact that Schiavo's parents told [Michael
Schiavo] to move on. And it was eight years before he did it. He
spent the previous eight years working with the parents to earn
money for Terri's care. In fact, the problems didn't start until
2000, when the Schindlers sued because they believed they hadn't
recieved their fair share of the death benefits. And your second
point is moot because when the whole matter heated up, the State of
Florida became Terri's legan guardian. Michael Schiavo had no way
to order the tube removed because the decision was ultimately out
of his hands.
I don't have the facts in front of me, but I seem to recall Schiavo
initially tried to have her feeding tube removed in 1994, and in
1998 he very nearly succeeded before an injunction was levied to
reinsert the feeding tube. That doesn't sound to me like he was
holding a torch for poor Mrs. Schiavo. There were also the reports
of abuse on his part, reports for which there is no lasting
evidence. I don't know if those stories were planted by people
opposed to Mr. Schiavo but if there's an ounce of truth to them,
they certainly raise questions.
Personally, I know I wouldn't want to be kept alive in that
condition, but for pete's sake I had a hard time deciding to put my
obviously pained, obviously terminally-ill pet to rest some years
ago. I think one must be careful in labelling "ghouls" the friends
and relatives who may not be able to rationally deal with the
situation.
A tolerant person condemns the actions and deeds, not the thoughts
and values, of their opponents. This distinction isn't made very
often these days. Especially in light of the good point Dynamist
raises about the fine line(s) at play in what constitutes death,
and guessing what someone would have wanted (since its been too
late to ask Mrs. Schiavo since 1990).
Xrlq|6.21.05 @ 2:57PM|#
Let's see if I got this straight. Michael Schiavo uses Terri's grave to take one last gratuitous swipe at her family by listing separate dates for when she supposedly "departed this earth" (collapsed but didn't die) vs. when she became "at peace" (died), and tops it off by also using her grave to brag about what I wonderful guy he was having kept his supposed promise. All that makes the Schindlers and their supporters a bunch of disgusting, self-righteous ghouls. Right?
|6.21.05 @ 3:04PM|#
Maybe Schiavo tried to remove the feeding tube because he hated the thought of the vibrant woman he loved existing as nothing more than an empty drooling shell with a dinosaur-sized brain (as shown in the autopsy). If anything happened to destroy my brain (which is to say also my intelligence, my personality, my humanity and--for the religious-minded, my soul), I'd hope to God that Jeff would let my body depart rather than keep it around like some morbid souvenir.
Xrlq|6.21.05 @ 3:13PM|#
David, that question is almost too dumb to answer. Maybe he thinks the Schindlers are a group of evil, nasty SOBs, but that doesn't mean it would be OK to put that on his wife's tombstone.
|6.21.05 @ 3:18PM|#
Ron,
Calling something another kind of death does not make it death. For
instance, when I lost my little toe to frostbite, I experienced
"tissue death" -- should that be on my tombstone, too?
|6.21.05 @ 3:26PM|#
"Maybe he thinks the Schindlers are a group of evil, nasty SOBs,
but that doesn't mean it would be OK to put that on his wife's
tombstone."
true, sort of. they did, after all, accuse him of murder,
wife-beating and mercenary tendencies. despite that, it's something
he may regret in the future. bitterness won't serve him very well
forever.
at the same time, what if he was telling the truth and was
upholding her wishes, and it took 15 years to finally do what she
asked? that'd probably be something you'd want to set in stone, so
to speak.
|6.21.05 @ 3:26PM|#
Tombstones, like funerals, are for the living, not the dead. The tombstone date is probably because Michael doesn't like to think of that drooling brainless thing we all saw on television as his wife; his wife was the pretty woman we occasionally saw in photographs dating back to the late '80s. All he had for the last fifteen years was an unrotted corpse with a heartbeat.
|6.21.05 @ 3:34PM|#
Xrlq,
I'll admit that it's a strange thing to do(idiotic, considering the
media storm was over) but he didn't come out and attack the
Schindlers. He just put his beliefs, which were the basis of his
case, on the marker.
Here's another dumb question. How long before someone changes the
marker to read Murdered March 31, 2005?
|6.21.05 @ 3:35PM|#
The only thing to do with a tragic situation like this is to
walk away and try to find peace. I've heard so many things that, if
true, would completely vindicate one side or the other. At some
point you have to put it aside and move on.
It isn't easy, but it's what has to be done. For their sake, I hope
that the Schindlers find the strength to do that.
|6.21.05 @ 3:35PM|#
Who. The Hell. Cares.
By all measurements of all sides concerned, she's dead. It's over.
Unless they're worried that archaeologists 10,000 years from now
will find the gravestone and be horribly mislead, I think people
can put this to rest and get a life.
|6.21.05 @ 3:43PM|#
Note to my future tombstone engravers:
As far as I'm concerned, I died the day they canceled Everybody
Loves Raymond.
Xrlq|6.21.05 @ 3:54PM|#
Here's another dumb question. How long before someone changes the marker to read Murdered March 31, 2005?
Hopefully, forever. But if anyone does do something that stupid,
you won't hear me defending him, let alone pulling a Bailey and
using the incident as proof he is a ghoul.
|6.21.05 @ 4:23PM|#
Note to my future tombstone engravers:
As far as I'm concerned, I died the day they canceled Everybody
Loves Raymond.
Check, and mate.
|6.21.05 @ 4:57PM|#
nurse is correct, as Ron Bailey's admission and discussion of
cortical damage make clear. (I share Bailey's outrage at the Save
Terri! forces, but was surprised to see him make that error about
brain death). As a nurse, she must know what brain death is, and
need not be a lawyer to have that knowledge-- but if it matters,
I'm a lawyer and hereby state that she is correct.
Michael Schiavo and the Florida courts have been subjected to some
of the worst lynch mob hysteria imaginable.To see that Michael and
the courts have behaved impeccably, and with an over-abundance of
concern for Terri and her rights and well-being, one need only read
the Guardian Ad Litem report drafted for Gov. Jeb Bush in 12/03
pursuant to Terri's Law I. Find it here.
(pdf)
R C Dean|6.21.05 @ 5:02PM|#
the history of democracy is replete with examples of noble
hero-leaders riding to authority on the wings of a radical militant
cult with a quality propaganda arm and large war chest.
I thought John Kerry lost?
|6.21.05 @ 5:11PM|#
Wait and see which side is first to come out with the book or
the made-for-television docu-drama.
Then we'll know which side was for real. My money is on the
Schindlers beating everyone to the punch.
|6.21.05 @ 5:33PM|#
I thought John Kerry lost?
Well played, RC, but the larger militant cult with the larger war
chest won. :)
|6.21.05 @ 5:43PM|#
I'm tired of Bible-thumpers telling me I'm "anti-life" for my views on this subject. Any suggestions for a snappy answer to shut them up?
|6.21.05 @ 5:59PM|#
try challenging them to an arm wresting competition.
i've found that yelling "oh, shit! the rapture!" in the middle of
the contest is a cheap victory in and of itself.
|6.21.05 @ 6:35PM|#
I'm tired of Bible-thumpers telling me I'm "anti-life" for
my views on this subject. Any suggestions for a snappy answer to
shut them up?
Try doing an Objectivism riff? ;)
|6.22.05 @ 2:21AM|#
Just for a sense of history, the epitaph for Nancy Cruzan was
very similar; it listed her birthdate, the day she died, and the
day she was finally removed from life-support (also using the
phrase "at peace").
And yes, I'm of the belief that in the relevant, meaningful and
human sense, she died when her brain was destroyed, years ago. What
was left was her corpse, and those who equated it with "her", and
tried to forever prolong its existence were the ones doing the real
disservice to the dignity of human life.
In any case, it's interesting that people who seem so outraged, so
emotionally invested, etc., etc., don't seem to have much of a clue
as to the (recent) history of this issue.
|6.22.05 @ 7:36AM|#
"I'm tired of Bible-thumpers telling me I'm "anti-life" for my
views on this subject. Any suggestions for a snappy answer to shut
them up?"
Just stare at them dead-eyed, and drool.
|6.22.05 @ 9:41AM|#
crimethink:
I, for one, think that your brain is a more significant bit of
tissue than you toe. :-)
|6.22.05 @ 1:38PM|#
How valid is "cortical death" as a medical term? A Google search turns up 339 hits, so Bailey didn't make up the phrase, but "persistent vegetative state" has 206,000 hits, so clearly it is a much more well-established term.
|6.22.05 @ 9:12PM|#
"I'm tired of Bible-thumpers telling me I'm "anti-life" for
my views on this subject. Any suggestions for a snappy answer to
shut them up?"
Got one - how's 'bout this:
Bible-Thumping A-Hole: "You're anti-life."
Me: "You can't kill what's already dead; it's redundant. That would
be like someone giving you a lobotomy."
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