El Matrimonio Gay

Julian Sanchez | April 22, 2005

The lower house of the Spanish parliament has passed a law that would recognize same-sex marriages and permit gay adoptions. The law is expected to pass the Senate within a couple of months. This has, of course, given Benny 16 his first red-meat issue: The new pope promptly condemned the law.

Back at home, meanwhile, the Texas state House has passed (by a 135-6 margin) a law that would prohibit gays from becoming foster parents. The bill is the brainchild of Robert Talton, who when he introduced a similar bill in 2003 told his colleagues: "if it was me I would rather [leave] kids in orphanages as such....At least they have a chance of learning the proper values."

Comments

|4.22.05 @ 10:37AM|#

"if it was me I would rather [leave] kids in orphanages as such....At least they have a chance of learning the proper values."

Well, its so nice that you have made the decision for all of us. Families are over rated anyway, nothing like growing up solo to make us stronger morally!

|4.22.05 @ 10:39AM|#

More of the wit and wisdom of Robert Talton (circa 2003) available here

Anon

|4.22.05 @ 10:41AM|#

It's ok if children don't experience love, as long as they don't catch the gay.

I hope that doesn't offend the strong moral values of these toothless hillybilly morons.

|4.22.05 @ 10:44AM|#

hmmm...undirected anger, bitterness, emotional detatchment...nice values, you piece of moral filth.

|4.22.05 @ 10:51AM|#

And to think that in my 36 years I have not managed to convert *one single person* to my team. I must not be trying hard enough.

|4.22.05 @ 11:10AM|#

Ole, Spain!

|4.22.05 @ 11:17AM|#

"I must not be trying hard enough."

have you tried flash cards?

fwiw, i think "catch the gay" should become a standard rhetorical tactic. it has the double effect of belittling one's opponent with a schoolyard-ish taunt while subtling insinuating that they have a santorum-ish fear of man on dog on houseplant action.

|4.22.05 @ 11:24AM|#

I'm honestly shocked that this would fly in such a Catholic and socially conservative country.

|4.22.05 @ 11:26AM|#

I knew there was something about this new Pope that I liked. Good for him.

|4.22.05 @ 11:36AM|#

So when the Pope told Spanish public officials that they should be willing to lose their jobs to resist this law, how much do you think the jewels that were actually on his person were worth?

|4.22.05 @ 11:37AM|#

From the article:

[the cardinal] said every profession linked with implementing homosexual marriages should oppose it, even if it meant losing their jobs.

What's Spanish for "go f--k yourself"?

R C Dean|4.22.05 @ 11:41AM|#

Julian, I am almost totally agnostic on the topic of gay marriage. I could, so to speak, go either way, so this comment is totally uninfluenced by the topic at hand.

If you want to piss people off and get anyone who isn't a pretty hostile to Catholics to tune you out, referring to the new Pope as "Benny 16" is a pretty good way to do it.

|4.22.05 @ 11:41AM|#

I like "Benny 16." How about "Bonny Benny 16?"

|4.22.05 @ 11:43AM|#

I'm honestly shocked that this would fly in such a Catholic and socially conservative country.

More people in Spain identify themselves as Catholic than believe in God. Half of the Spanish who identify as Catholics don't believe in heaven. Those poll numbers ought to tell you something about Spanish Catholicism.

|4.22.05 @ 11:44AM|#

Polls in Spain have consistently shown strong support for gay marriage, streamlined divorce laws, and access to contraception. American Catholics are much more conservative than most European Catholics, in my experience. Look at the exceedingly low birth rates in nominally Catholic countries like Italy and you can see how much they conform to Vatican dictates on birth control. They rhythm method just isn't that effective.

Ayn_Randian|4.22.05 @ 11:47AM|#

How about:

"Benny and the (Pre)Lates?"

And they say Objectivists are humorless.

|4.22.05 @ 11:51AM|#

It's interesting, really, that Spain has become country number three to legalize same-sex marriage. I would have expected it to be one like Sweden or Denmark. Nonetheless, it goes to show you how far Spain has come since the days of Franco. Spain has really developed into a modern, forward-looking country over the last thirty years.

Something I'm curious about, though, is the poll that was done. I read it in Spanish, and I believe it asked Spaniards whether they believed homosexuals should receive the "rights and benefits" of marriage. I know in the U.S., whether you use the word "marriage" or not can really alter the responses.

|4.22.05 @ 11:52AM|#

I like "Pope Ratzo" better, but "Pope Palpatine" works, too.

|4.22.05 @ 12:03PM|#

Those poll numbers ought to tell you something about Spanish Catholicism.

It tells *me* that the Catholic Church is totally out of step with modernity.

|4.22.05 @ 12:05PM|#

Well it isn't a big secret out in Blog Land that the powers to be behind Hit and Run have been trying to link the Pope to Nazi Germany. Shameless leftism at its worst. Democratic Underground would be proud. But to his credit, the Daily Kos had to put his foot down on this BS.

Justin Raimondo writes "It's amazing to see the depths to which people will sink to slime anything or anyone that is perceived as holy, or having to do with religion. While this doesn't do much to convince me of the existence of God, it sure is a helluva argument for the reality of Satan."

The one and true Pope for Hit and Run. Pope Sullivan

http://ace.mu.nu/archives/077089.php#077089

not Rick Barton|4.22.05 @ 12:14PM|#

Ah, so Raimondo is a devout Christian now? Does that explain his soft spot for Milosevic?

|4.22.05 @ 12:35PM|#

"if it was me I would rather [leave] kids in orphanages as such....At least they have a chance of learning the proper values."

Really, I can't think of a fitting response to this. The statement basically refutes itself through the sheer weight of its irony.

|4.22.05 @ 12:39PM|#

If you want to get a mental picture of the district Talton represents, think [i]Urban Cowboy[/i]. It still has no educational institutions of note, but now it has Starbucks.

|4.22.05 @ 12:44PM|#

Texas state House has passed (by a 135-6 margin) a law...

Although it's true that the house passed this stupid bill, it should be noted that 58 reps voted against the specific anti-gay provision (a tacked on amendment). Since the bill was going to pass the house anyway, 52 of the 58 antis decided not to fall on their swords. Even so, the passage is a damning indictment of Texas intolerance.

|4.22.05 @ 12:57PM|#

"if it was me I would rather [leave] kids in orphanages as such....At least they have a chance of learning the proper values."

Really, I can't think of a fitting response to this. The statement basically refutes itself through the sheer weight of its irony.

I dunno. If "learning the proper values" means "realizing that politicians and government don't actually care about your welfare, just about controlling your life", I suppose it makes a grim sort of sense.

|4.22.05 @ 12:58PM|#

"Well it isn't a big secret out in Blog Land that the powers to be behind Hit and Run have been trying to link the Pope to Nazi Germany."

foiled! foiled by those pajama-clad warriors of truth!

damn you!

|4.22.05 @ 1:06PM|#

Well it isn't a big secret out in Blog Land that the powers to be behind Hit and Run have been trying to link the Pope to Nazi Germany.

You know, this might be true. H&R should spend more time linking James to Nazi Germany instead. I think there is more than meets the eye with this guy!

|4.22.05 @ 1:22PM|#

Well, we've got same sex civil unions in Connecticut now. Even if we did define marriage as between a man and a woman.

|4.22.05 @ 1:34PM|#

. . . trying to link the Pope to Nazi Germany . . .

It's not like he fucking lived there or something!

What?

Oh, nevermind. Did you have some other definition of "link" of which we should be aware?

|4.22.05 @ 1:37PM|#

Gay Catholics should start a well-publicized new organization, and call it "Opus Gay", to make fun of Opus Dei.

|4.22.05 @ 1:44PM|#

Hey, RC Dean.

If we really wanted to make fun of Benny XVI, we'd call him Bent-a-Dick XVI.

|4.22.05 @ 1:59PM|#

I personally think that JP 2 and Benny 16 were gay lovers. After all for 20 years Benny was JP's "close" personal advisor. The man "behind" the throne, so to speak.

|4.22.05 @ 2:02PM|#

"If we really wanted to make fun of Benny XVI, we'd call him Bent-a-Dick XVI."

Or just how about Nazi-in-a-dress-with-a-funny-hat.

I'm sorry, it's 2005 already. I have no more patience for emotional cripples clinging to ancient fairy tales and medieval customs, particularly since they seem hellbent on running my life. Their inability to grow up and deal with reality is their problem. Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke, or not-a-joke, as the case may be.

And Godwin's law has nothing to do referring to somebody who was in the Hitler Youth a fucking Nazi--it's a fact.

|4.22.05 @ 2:13PM|#

Everything I've seen indicates that B16 was ultra-minimally involved in the HY at age 14 because it was mandatory, and even then had only contempt for the Nazis; there are plenty of legitimate things to say against the guy without trotting this out.

Tim Cavanaugh|4.22.05 @ 2:20PM|#

You know, James, it's really in the best interest of the pope's defenders to stop sticking up for him on the Nazi business. Left alone, this trope will die out because it's not relevant and, as has been abundantly argued here and elsewhere, modern society accepts that he doesn't bear much responsibility for stuff he did at age 14. Ironically, he does bear responsibility for it within his own church, which considers the age of seven to be the time when you become accountable for your sins. (At least it did when I made my first confession; they may have changed it since then.) The Hitler Youth stuff-and more importantly, the shillyshallying, passive-voice account of it Ratzinger gives now-doesn't make him an ideal moral authority, but soon his critics will tire of this angle. But when you defend him on this count, you keep the theme alive.

As for the powers "to be" behind Hit and Run, it appears to me that most if not all the discussion discussion of Ratzinger and the Nazi period has happened in the comments, where you and others are free to speak your minds. So speak your mind, if I may call it that, and leave the conspiracy theories to Father Nicholas Gruner's Fatima Center.

|4.22.05 @ 2:37PM|#

Back at home, meanwhile, the Texas state House has passed (by a 135-6 margin) a law that would prohibit gays from becoming foster parents.

See, this is exactly the sort of shit I'm talking about when I say that there are two anti-gay parties in American and no pro-gay ones.

And yes, I know the Greens and Libertarians are pro-gay, but... please.

|4.22.05 @ 2:42PM|#

I think someone should remind the pope who painted those pictures he was elected under.

|4.22.05 @ 4:15PM|#

Meanwhile, in other important Catholic news....

http://snipurl.com/e6nx

|4.22.05 @ 4:17PM|#

See, this is exactly the sort of shit I'm talking about when I say that there are two anti-gay parties in American and no pro-gay ones.

OK... so what's your point?

|4.22.05 @ 4:30PM|#

Hey! The Democratic Party is roughly 50% pro-gay!

He says proudly.

W-'r- -er-, -e'-e, -et -s-- ge- -s-d -o i-!

|4.22.05 @ 4:32PM|#

My deep knowledge of Spanish indicates the title of this post should actually be "El Matrimonio Gayo."

|4.22.05 @ 4:49PM|#

Oops, forgot to add "q--er" to my lame little joke.

|4.22.05 @ 4:58PM|#

Stevo-
The Spanish for "gay" really is just... "gay."

|4.22.05 @ 5:32PM|#

Oh, nevermind. Did you have some other definition of "link" of which we should be aware?

So, assuming your an American, one can say you are linked forever with the Bush Addministration.

|4.22.05 @ 5:33PM|#

your should be you're

|4.22.05 @ 6:02PM|#

Julian Sanchez: Stevo- The Spanish for "gay" really is just... "gay."

Verdad? Que unexpectedo! Color a me el rojo!

Henry: Meanwhile, in other important Catholic news.... http://snipurl.com/e6nx

Oh crap, that's embarrassing.

Although actually, the image is kinda beautiful anyhow.

|4.22.05 @ 7:38PM|#

"Trujillo record� que la Iglesia 'no acepta que los homosexuales sean objeto de burlas, insultos o expresiones inhumanas. Son personas que merecen todo nuestro amor, nuestro apoyo y nuestra ayuda', ha dicho."
http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2005/04/22/espana/1114165582.html

So what about the love, help and support of their partners? I would think that a law on gay marriage would merely recognize the actual source of such love for most gays.

In any case, it is fairly difficult to define exactly how conservative or religious Spain is. I agree that the majority of Spaniards are irreligious and relatively liberal, but the same cannot be said about all of Spain�s institutions. Keep in mind that Rajoy�s (and previously Aznar�s) Partido Popular was formed by a merger of the Centro Democr�tico and the franquista Alianza Popular, leaving it in some ways as the ideological successor of Franquismo within the democratic process. The entire theme of whether or not Spain has undergone a complete transformation is that of the concept of Desmemoria vs. Desencanto.

Under Aznar�s government, Spain retained relatively conservative laws with regard to both divorce and abortion, signaling that Spain allowed for the maintenance of certain conservative elements in exchange for a government that was perceived as less corrupt than that of Felipe Gonzalez and fiscally responsible, pro-European economic policy. Of course, 11-M led to a sudden loss of public trust in PP just as PSOE had lost public trust due to the GAL scandal. Now that PSOE is newly entrusted to basically do what PP would have done on economic issues, the government is now also pursuing a number of issues that better represents the center-left consensus of Spaniards. Interestingly enough though, if I recall correctly, PP had a counter-proposal to PSOE�s last fall on gay marriage that would have been similar, but without the right of gay couples to adopt children from within Spain. (PSOE�s version already excludes foreign adoptions so as to prevent diplomatic problems.)

I guess the ultimate conclusion is that Spain�s past conservative, religious identity was primarily a legend to support franquismo.

|4.22.05 @ 7:42PM|#

It seems that a number of characters didn't work. Let me retry:

"Trujillo record� que la Iglesia 'no acepta que los homosexuales sean objeto de burlas, insultos o expresiones inhumanas. Son personas que merecen todo nuestro amor, nuestro apoyo y nuestra ayuda', ha dicho."
http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2005/04/22/espana/1114165582.html

So what about the love, help and support of their partners? I would think that a law on gay marriage would merely recognize the actual source of such love for most gays.

In any case, it is fairly difficult to define exactly how conservative or religious Spain is. I agree that the majority of Spaniards are irreligious and relatively liberal, but the same cannot be said about all of Spain's institutions. Keep in mind that Rajoy's (and previously Aznar's) Partido Popular was formed by a merger of the Centro Democr�tico and the franquista Alianza Popular, leaving it in some ways as the ideological successor of Franquismo within the democratic process. The entire theme of whether or not Spain has undergone a complete transformation is that of the concept of Desmemoria vs. Desencanto.

Under Aznar's government, Spain retained relatively conservative laws with regard to both divorce and abortion, signaling that Spain allowed for the maintenance of certain conservative elements in exchange for a government that was perceived as less corrupt than that of Felipe Gonzalez and fiscally responsible, pro-European economic policy. Of course, 11-M led to a sudden loss of public trust in PP just as PSOE had lost public trust due to the GAL scandal. Now that PSOE is newly entrusted to basically do what PP would have done on economic issues, the government is now also pursuing a number of issues that better represents the center-left consensus of Spaniards. Interestingly enough though, if I recall correctly, PP had a counter-proposal to PSOE's last fall on gay marriage that would have been similar, but without the right of gay couples to adopt children from within Spain. (PSOE's version already excludes foreign adoptions so as to prevent diplomatic problems.)

I guess the ultimate conclusion is that Spain's past conservative, religious identity was primarily a legend to support franquismo.

|4.22.05 @ 7:49PM|#

"...if it was me I would rather [leave] kids in orphanages as such....At least they have a chance of learning the proper values."


It's like the guy who called my talk show once saying he'd rather see the child of a seperated gay couple get no child support (from the non-custodial parent) than do anything to "legitimize the relationship." Let the kid twist in the wind - yeah, that'll send a "pro-family" message!

|4.22.05 @ 11:34PM|#

mariposa

|4.23.05 @ 9:36AM|#

Tim Cavanaugh,

Not to keep the trope going, but I don't see how simply being a member of then-mandatory Hitler Youth was itself a sin regardless of his age. Obviously, it would be different if he had committed violence as a member, but there's no evidence he did.

|4.25.05 @ 10:47AM|#

i saw an image of barbara streisand in a puke stain on the carpet in my dorm the other day... the gods do exist!!!