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Whenever the squares start fuming about how mad they are at a post-relevant country like France, it reminds me of the scene in Good Morning, Vietnam where Bruno Kirby subs as a radio comedy host, and his A-1 material is a wheeze about "Our old pal Frenchy!" If you feel the same way, then Matt Welch says Ooh-la-la to you.
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|1.25.05 @ 4:17PM|#
Where's Jean Bart when you need him?
|1.25.05 @ 4:25PM|#
No joke, don't you just wanna hug him after reading that? I'm going to go read some of his old posts and listen to Saint-Saens in my beret.
|1.25.05 @ 4:35PM|#
I am around here often enough to have read pleanty of Jean Bart postings, but not enough to know what happened to him. Any theories?
|1.25.05 @ 4:41PM|#
The French have always punched above their diplomatic weight, but that's a historical accident of sorts that seems destined to decrease.
Actually, it has much to do with de Gaulle's FP as anything.
Chirac's obscene and ultimately failed attempt at punishing Central Europeans for supporting George Bush's Iraq policy has emboldened Poles and Czechs who were already more oriented toward Washington.
Aside from his verbal gaffe, what did Chirac actually do?
|1.25.05 @ 4:43PM|#
Fang, see below.
|1.25.05 @ 4:43PM|#
de Gaulle irritated the fuck out of a lot of people (that's partly why France didn't end up like Poland after WWII) and so he got half a loaf in many situations where he would have gotten none. FP wise it worked out well for France.
Matt Welch|1.25.05 @ 4:59PM|#
thoreau, fang -- "Jean Bart" is not his only nom de comment.
Gary -- "Verbal gaffe" implies unintential mistake, and though I'm not privy to Chirac's interior world, I can guess with reasonable confidence that he meant what he said. It just backfired on him.
fyodor|1.25.05 @ 5:23PM|#
Matt,
FWIW, I believe thoreau is probably well aware of the multiple noms of JBGG, although fang probably is not.
Ooh, the insideness of it all, I feel so...inside!
|1.25.05 @ 5:33PM|#
Regardless of who has what screen name, different screen names have somewhat different personalities, and I think Jean Bart would be appropriate here.
For instance, my commentary as thoreau is very different from my commentary when I'm Sen. Rick Santorum (R-PA).
The Wine Commonsewer|1.25.05 @ 5:56PM|#
"We forget sometimes how foreign our obsessions of the moment will seem 10 years from now. Was it just a decade ago when Republicans were the party of balanced budgets and junking the Education Department, while earnest liberals championed regime change abroad? Why yes it was."--Matt
worth the price of admission to read just that quote.
|1.25.05 @ 5:58PM|#
Jason,
I have mentioned that I have had some of the same experiences with the French that you mentioned. And I also have visited most of Europe, and not met that kind of thing elsewhere.
However, it was brought to my attention by GG that it was because I am an asshole, or something like it. I guess if I wasn't an asshole the French wouldn't have come across that way.
I should mention that two of the coolest people I met in Saudi Arabia were French. Not that that means anything.
|1.25.05 @ 6:11PM|#
I was in Paris for a few days back in 1991, and I had no problem with the French people. Of course, I spoke a little of the language then (now, I know way more Spanish), and I was an 18yo kid just trying to have a little fun. The people who kinda pissed me off in Paris were the Irish, most of whom were working on the EuroDisney at the time. But they were very rude to the French people, complaining that they couldn't read the menu and whatnot.
Just another personla anecdote. I liked Spain the best, although I also had a great time in Germany. But the Spanish women and culture - yeah, baby!!
|1.25.05 @ 6:16PM|#
Egypt is another country that is moving away from using French as a second language to English. The best primary schools used to be the French language schools, but now they are being surpassed by the English and German schools, pretty interesting.
Another interesting anti-Guallist note. While I was in Egypt, we discussed some international politics and there was some anti-American foreign policy (not to be confused w/ anti-American) discussion with my family. So I said, sarcastically, "What would, you like us to be more like France?" The response was a pretty universal, "Hell no!" and that their dislike was that we were becoming more like the Europeans rather than less like them.
By this they mean high minded colonial conquests to improve the conditions for the people, while at the same time increasing the suffering. Saying one thing regarding freedom and supporting brutal, kleptocratic regimes, etc. I'm not saying that I agree 100%, but that's the view.
My view of the French is less negative than most of the commenters here. While they were, on average, ruder than most Europeans I've met, though the rudest individuals I've met in my travels were in Madrid, they were no worse than New Yorkers or Bostonians are to tourist, FWIW.
|1.25.05 @ 6:22PM|#
Just to clarify, I met some fantastically great people in Madrid, but the rudest people I've met in a foreign country happened to have been residing there.
|1.25.05 @ 6:32PM|#
Alright now! It's one thing to say that Parisians are the rudest people in Europe, but to suggest that they are almost as rude as Massholes....
[note: attempt at humor; do not try this at home; shake well]
|1.25.05 @ 8:41PM|#
Matt Welch,
You didn't answer my question. What besides the verbal gaffe (or however you want to describe it) - did Chirac do to try to "punish" Poland, etc.? In light of this question, note that if France really wanted to punish Poland, etc., it could have simply vetoed their entry into the E.U.
The Poles are so emboldended they want out of Iraq, their major obsession these days is getting "reparations" out of the Germans and they had to climb down from their positions vis a vis the EU's constitutions. Poland has no weight to throw around without a few partners in the E.U.
I was also reflecting on your thoughts regarding French influence in the world and my retort is that France remains a dominant power in the world of fashion, perfumes, cooking, etc. Further, if you want to visit a nation in the grips of Francophilia, just visit China - somehow the loss of influence in Romania pales in comparison to the absolute obsession the Chinese have with France these days (especially parvenus).
You wrote that I have multiple identities!!!! The persecution!!!! Now I know how crimethink feels. :)
____________________________
As to the "rudeness" of the French, that is explained by the unwillingness of some to learn some fairly simple etiquette. The French are more formal people than Americans (generally) and that explains in large part whatever difficulties Americans have with French people.
|1.25.05 @ 9:35PM|#
I dunno but isn't going to Paris and basing your opinion of France on that the same as going to NYC and basing your opinion of the US on that? Not quite the same thing.
Anyway, if it wasn't for Charles Martel, you'd all be speaking arabic you ungrateful barbarians.
|1.26.05 @ 12:21AM|#
Sixty years ago, in The Discovery of Freedom: Man's Struggle Against Authority, Rose Wilder Lane used France as one example of the nightmares that can happen when the government tries to micromanage. She talks about the time she lived in Paris and describes -- in witty and exhaustive detail -- the processes required to by a spool of thread, and to purchase and register an automobile. These events took place sometime prior to World War 2; hopefully it's better now. I can't imagine it could be any worse.
I have no firsthand familiarity with Europe myself; I only know what I've read. I'd love to go to the British Isles some day.
And maybe Spain -- just for the opportunity to try some really authentic tacos and tamales!!!
|1.26.05 @ 12:21AM|#
You wrote that I have multiple identities!!!! The persecution!!!! Now I know how crimethink feels. :)
Um, Gary, Matt Welch wrote that Jean Bart has multiple identities. He didn't say that you have multiple identities ;)
|1.26.05 @ 12:34AM|#
I wonder if I should have put a smiley at the end of my last post.
By the way, Rose Wilder Lane was no ignorant, untraveled American. She was amazing.
http://www.cato.org/special/threewomen/wilder-lane.html
|1.26.05 @ 12:36AM|#
thoreau,
I misread him then. And of course we all know that the comment was directed at me. And I'm shocked at Welch's behavior! Just shocked!!! :)
|1.26.05 @ 2:00AM|#
So according to Reason France is a "post-relevant" country. Ah, but the whole discussion has the aura of those living in glass houses throwing stones. Usage of the french language is slipping. But then so is the value and usage of the American dollar.
"France's semi-permanent high-unemployment economic crisis is also leaching its power". And what exactly is U.S.'s deficit spending doing?
|1.26.05 @ 4:52AM|#
It is an axiom of mine that democracies (and France today is a durable democracy) seldom fight, and never with each other...so the "conflict" between France and the US has never been all that serious.
France unquestionably has a weakening economy, probably has a military even less potent than they present it on paper, and no national resolve to undertake sacrifices for ANY reason - and least of all, to tangle with the world's greatest super-power.
It is silly, both to fear them, or to regard their approval as significant.
|1.26.05 @ 12:57PM|#
My experience in France is limited to a few weeks I spent at a monastery in Bourdeaux(I have no idea how to spell that). I had just finished a western civ class at school before I went, and we were building tents and stuff... I smacked a lot of stuff around, so my nickname was Charles "The Hammer" Martel. The French are nice, they give you badass nicknames.
|1.26.05 @ 12:58PM|#
smacked stuff around with a sledgehammer. wow, that story made no sense without that detail.
|1.26.05 @ 1:37PM|#
The rudest people I ever met were in Amsterdam.
The Romans tend to be mostly theiving cheats.
Never been to France, but my experience with the French was more bad than good. They seem to have a "post-relevancy" complex.
raymond|1.26.05 @ 3:30PM|#
The rudest people I ever met were in Amsterdam, too.
They were American tourists.