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Behind Enemy Lines
I just spent my annual month in the National Review's nightmare world, and I can exclusively confirm the following:
* The French really don't seem to like that George Bush
fellow.
* As such, a really handy phrase that you can use for just about
any occasion, and with whatever mixture of sincerity and mockery
you prefer, is "c'est
la faute de Bush."
* Despite this, several people from whom I've previously heard
pretty virulent and/or conspiratorial anti-hyperpower
stuff volunteered that their country is suffering from a "virus" of
anti-Americanism.
* There is still no adequate retort to "Yeah, but what about that
hack Chirac?"
* Those in the Parisian tourist industry say they've been hurt by
the dropoff in American visitors; meanwhile several French people I
talked to said they were nervous about visiting the U.S. because of
anti-surrender-monkeyism.
* It is universally accepted that the charismatic rightist
Nicolas Sarkozy will run the country sooner rather than later.
When I ask lefty pals why they don't like him, the worst they can
muster is "he supports wild capitalism." (That, and he's made it
more difficult to drive drunk.) When I ask them to name a single
Socialist politician worth a damn, they run out of candidates after
the
mayor of Paris, whose electoral ambitions may be blunted by the
fact he is openly gay.
* Lust for lefty dictators is still on display. Liberation
ran a profile of a female former government member who was Castro's
lover for a good swath of the '60s, and she described his caresses
as "like being touched by the hand of God." This was presented
matter-of-factly.
* They still have a different word for everything.
|1.14.05 @ 1:04PM|#
NRO and the French. Good stuff.
Shortly after 9/11, when they were on a "Clash of Civilizations"
kick, a post appeared in "The Corner," titled "No One Here But Us
Frenchmen," denouncing a newspaper for reporting on anti-semitism
in France. The complaint was that the story didn't single out
Muslims living in France as being the cause of the anti-semitic
attacks.
A few months later, when the adminstration was getting grief from
the French for pushing for the invasion of Iraq, a post appeared in
"The Corner" denouncing a NYT story about anti-semitism in France.
This time, the complaint was that the story identified Muslims
living in France as the perpetrators of anti-Semitic attacks, and
didn't sufficiently accuse native born Frenchmen of
antisemitism.
So you can pretty much wipe your ass with whatever National Review
has to say about France.
drf|1.14.05 @ 1:27PM|#
would this count as even more anti froggie, anti euro stuff from
matt? *grin*
and joe - believe me, you DON'T want to wipe your ass with the NRO,
for any reason. apparently the condition is called "staple burn",
but i shan't elaborate...
|1.14.05 @ 1:28PM|#
There's something Emmanuel Goldstein about this whole France
thing. We are instructed to hate it. We don't have to know why. Or
if it even exists. But it doesn't matter anymore. Really, how many
wars have we been in with France? Compared to pretty much any other
major european country?
Meanwhile we coddle Pakistan and our dear allies the Saudis and
admire Putin's snow-white soul.
|1.14.05 @ 1:40PM|#
Really, how many wars have we been in with France? Compared
to pretty much any other major european country?
Do trade and/or culture wars count?
Warren|1.14.05 @ 1:44PM|#
"So you can pretty much wipe your ass with whatever National
Review has to say about France."
[stern voice]What do you mean, "about
France"?[/stern voice]
|1.14.05 @ 1:46PM|#
"* They still have a different word for everything."
I'm curious how their campaign to stamp out English words seeping
into use is going. Like making them use some 50-letter french word
instead of "email."
|1.14.05 @ 2:03PM|#
I dislike France only because it is the only place I have ever been mugged. And because they produce virtually no music of any consequence that I like.
|1.14.05 @ 2:06PM|#
Like making them use some 50-letter french word instead of
"email."
It's German the builds the huge long compound words. It's one of
the things that makes it a really tough language.
drf|1.14.05 @ 2:10PM|#
you're kidding, Issac? maybe keeping track of the appropriate
genders and proper endings (maybe word order), but that's not a
difficult part of the language at all...
and it's sure easier to speak than french... :)
Warren|1.14.05 @ 2:12PM|#
* They still have a different word for
everything.
And that word is 'toute' {:^)
|1.14.05 @ 2:40PM|#
OK, list all of the countries against which the United States
has fought more than one war.
Now list all of the countries against which the United States has
been to war exactly once.
Where does France appear fall in the above? Now which country is
our "grestest enemy" of all time?
|1.14.05 @ 2:59PM|#
drf
Oh, I didn't mean to say that french was easy. Indeed
French probably is the hardest language because the pronunciation
is so totally foreign to an Anglo. I've heard it called "the
mouth", sort of the way that you have shape your mouth is utterly
alien.
I am probably unusual in that I actually get compliments on my
french accent. And not just from my French cousin and friends but
total strangers (cab drivers and store clerks). And I
still hardly understand a word. My comprehension of Italian and
Spanish are better even tho my vocabulary is smaller.
Perhaps I should have said "It's one of the things that makes it a
really tough language for me."
|1.14.05 @ 3:12PM|#
great article, but I need to point out to Rhywun that "Ca Plane Pour Moi" and Les Rita Mitsouko's "C'est Comme Sa" were great songs in my book.
|1.14.05 @ 3:42PM|#
Any country that has produced such great food can't be all that
bad, can it?
This post made me wonder how Americans are actually treated in
France, never having been there.
Of course I've heard horror stories, but then again, a liberal
friend of mine from SF complained about how incredibly rude the
people are in Utah, so I take those stories with a grain of
salt.
Matt Welch|1.14.05 @ 3:58PM|#
Todd -- I've been to France maybe 20 times, spending a total of
maybe around 8 months in the country, and I've never once been
treated rudely for being an American, or a tourist, or a filthy
hippy, or a guy who massacres the French language, or anything.
Touristic Paris has a reputation for rude waiters & such, but
I've never even experienced that (my brother is about the only
American I know who has), and I can testify that rudeness by
waiters & shopkeepers in Prague makes any Gallic huffiness look
like child's play.
There is a great book out in France, which is a translated U.S.
Army manual from 1944 or maybe a bit later, explaining patiently to
the American troops why the French might not smell so good, or why
the waiters are rude, or what French girls expect, etc. Looking at
the list you realize that many of our myths about the French were
either A) based on specific war-related behavior (they didn't bathe
much cuz they didn't have much water or soap), or B) were *always*
mythical.
They do really like Jerry Lewis, though.
|1.14.05 @ 4:11PM|#
OK, list all of the countries against which the United
States has fought more than one war.
All of them?
Yikes.
Native Tribes (too numerous to count)
Mexico (4)
China (3)
Algeria (2)
Dominican Republic (2)
France (2)
Germany (2)
Korea (2)
Nicaragua (2)
Panama (2)
Serbia (2)
Spain (2)
United Kingdom (2)
Now list all of the countries against which the United States
has been to war exactly once.
Afghanistan
Austria
Cambodia
Grenada
Haiti
Hawaii
Hungary
Iraq
Italy
Japan
Libya
Mormons
Ourselves
Vietnam
Where does France appear fall in the above? Now which country
is our "grestest enemy" of all time?
If you're only using numbers of wars waged, France is tied for
fourth on the greatest enemy list.
|1.14.05 @ 4:16PM|#
Though, if you count Vichy, France moves up to three wars and is tied for third on the greatest enemy list.
|1.14.05 @ 4:18PM|#
If we could broaden the scope and look at the country responsible for the most deaths of american soliders, I think we could consider ourselves our own worst enemy.
|1.14.05 @ 4:20PM|#
The contemporary French polity - and to a lesser extant, the rest of continental Western Europe - espouse an anti-American ideology...moreso than the PRC. We have ignored it as much as we should ignore it - now we should challenge it as much as it should be challenged: both are necessary.
|1.14.05 @ 4:28PM|#
Excellent call on the Mormons T.P.G.!!
Outside of the war against Japan, fighting Mormos was probably the
most justfied of all United States aggression.
|1.14.05 @ 4:31PM|#
Yet another Steve Martin reset by Matt Welch. Sometimes I think these are just for me.
|1.14.05 @ 4:41PM|#
... this whole France thing. We are instructed to hate it.
We don't have to know why. Or if it even exists.
Oh, it exists all right. I can see it out the kitchen window.
The contemporary French polity - and to a lesser extant, the
rest of continental Western Europe - espouse an anti-American
ideology...moreso than the PRC.
Not anti-American.
Anti-imbécile.
Matt Welch|1.14.05 @ 4:44PM|#
alkali -- I'm basically the Manchurian candidate of Steve Martin references ...
|1.14.05 @ 4:45PM|#
Thomas - what 2 wars with France are we talking about? That French & Indian stuff? The USA didn't exist then.
|1.14.05 @ 4:50PM|#
Brian,
I'd count the French-Indian War, though we were Brits then. The
Quasi-war in 1810 or 1811. Count fighting the Vichy and you have
3.
|1.14.05 @ 4:50PM|#
Thomas - what 2 wars with France are we talking about? That
French & Indian stuff? The USA didn't exist then.
French and Indian, yes, who cares if we didn't exist, we, as a
people were still fighting them, as a people. If you discount the
french and indian, you have to discount the revolutionary war as
well, and I will not, thank you.
The second would be the quasi-war. The third would be WWII and the
fight against Vichy.
|1.14.05 @ 4:51PM|#
Tom Paine:
You should definitely count Vichy France--they fired upon our
troops in N. Africa during WWII.
So they're tied for third.
eh.
|1.14.05 @ 4:52PM|#
"Outside of the war against Japan, fighting Mormos was probably
the most justfied of all United States aggression."
???
a clear and present danger from the moroni 5th column?
|1.14.05 @ 4:54PM|#
Multiple Wars:
Native Tribes (too numerous to count)
Mexico (4)
China (3)
France (3)
Algeria (2)
Dominican Republic (2)
Germany (2)
Korea (2)
Nicaragua (2)
Panama (2)
Serbia (2)
Spain (2)
United Kingdom (2)
Single Conflicts:
Afghanistan
Austria
Cambodia
Grenada
Haiti
Hawaii
Hungary
Iraq
Italy
Japan
Libya
Mormons
Ourselves
Vietnam
I'm also not counting the number of times we sent an expeditionary
force to smack heads in Haiti.
|1.14.05 @ 4:55PM|#
???
a clear and present danger from the moroni 5th column?
No, but Mormons deserve a good bombardment once a decade.
|1.14.05 @ 5:04PM|#
T.P.G.,
How about our brief, mostly unknown fight against the
Bolsheviks?
Shit. Good call.
Evan McElravy|1.14.05 @ 5:25PM|#
Each country in the War List should also have subtracted from
its total one point for each war we've been allied with them in,
wouldn't you say?
Also, courriel �lectronique is redundant;
courriel is a contraction of courrier
�lectronique..
|1.14.05 @ 5:29PM|#
dang, you guys did it twice in one day...
a thread about hating France morphs into a military history
lesson...
OK, if it happens one more time today, i'll stop procrastinating
and get a Reason subscription.
|1.14.05 @ 5:55PM|#
Come on, how couldn't a "hate France" thread turn into a
discussion of military history?
Cest le guerre! (or something like that)
|1.14.05 @ 6:09PM|#
"You should definitely count Vichy France--they fired upon our
troops in N. Africa during WWII."
You overlooked the little part about how they fired on us because
we were invading them. Sheesh. You could with as much justice blame
the Belgians for firing on the German troops in 1914. As the
legendary sign in the Paris zoo said: "This animal is very wicked;
when attacked, it defends itself."
|1.14.05 @ 6:59PM|#
Seamus, I don't think right and wrong enters into the equation, and even if it didn't, alliance with Nazi Germany is a pretty strong indictment.
|1.14.05 @ 7:07PM|#
France wasn't allied with Nazi Germany. It was defeated by them
and had signed an armistice that required them to remain neutral.
Allowing U.S. troops to land in North Africa would have been a
violation of that armistice. When we insisted on landing anyway,
the Germans decided that if we were going to run roughshod over
French neutrality then they may as well do the same, and so they
invaded Unoccupied France.
I think the frogs can be forgiven for wanting to avert such an
outcome.
I would point out too that we went to war in 1812 and 1917 to
defend neutral rights. (Just as the Brits--the people who were
violating our rights in 1812--went to war to defend them in 1914.)
I might also mention that if we had the right to force the French
to assist us against Hitler, the Brits should have had the same
rights to insist that we help them against Napoleon.
|1.14.05 @ 7:12PM|#
What are the wars with China?
- CIA training and funding of Tibetan resistance?
- Opium War(s)?
|1.14.05 @ 7:30PM|#
"What are the wars with China?"
I suspect the suppression of the Boxer Rebellion would be one and
the Korean War another. We weren't involved in the Opium Wars, and
assistance to the Tibetan resistance doesn't really rise to the
level of war, so I don't know what the third war with China would
be.
|1.14.05 @ 7:36PM|#
"I don't think right and wrong enters into the equation"
No, it doesn't count if all you are doing is counting wars. (Though
I wonder if Operation Torch really counts as a "war" with France.
It certainly does if you're counting every two bit police action,
like the ones in the Dominican Republic, but I think that's
defining the term pretty loosely.) My objection (like that of the
smarmy French police goon in the movie of "To Have and Have Not")
was to rather to the tone of "they fired upon our troops." I took
that to include an implied "How dare they!" If I was mistaken, and
if all that was meant was that shots were fired, meaning that there
was indeed a "war" under the loose definition that we seem to be
using, then I apologize for jumping to an unwarranted
conclusion.
|1.14.05 @ 7:43PM|#
Make Iraq two.
Are you counting Libya 19th century Tripoli or bombing the shit out
of Kaddafi's family?
|1.14.05 @ 9:13PM|#
Seamus,
We weren't invading, we were liberating. The Vichy were a puppet
government set up by the (invading) Nazis. They went along with
whatever der fuehrer said so the Nazis could say "see the
French-types agree with our little plan to ship the Jews, or build
V2s or..."
"When we insisted on landing anyway, the Germans decided that if we
were going to run roughshod over French neutrality then they may as
well do the same, and so they invaded Unoccupied France."
I can't believe you wrote that. Where did you learn your
history?
Bill|1.14.05 @ 9:29PM|#
I took that to include an implied "How dare they!"
Well, if he won't imply, I'll come right out and say it.
Americans died so they would no longer be ordered around by German
soldiers. The invasion of North Africa was a necessary precondition
to accomplishing the liberation of Paris. Every time some French
soldier fired on a landing Allied soldier, he was in effect saying,
"I love my German overlords and I think it's great that they ship
all those jews off to concentration camps." "How dare you?" seems
like a pretty mild response.
Reading Winston Churchill's memoirs and his account of the
reactions of Vichy leaders, it was striking how much they lived up
to every worst stereotype of the French. Arrogant, condescending,
self-centered. One leader's reaction to an American envoy was to
say something about how "stupid" Americans were, and how they were
"as stupid as the English". Yeah, a simple "thank you" would have
sufficed.
|1.14.05 @ 11:04PM|#
Oh, crap! The Bill that posted at 9:29 PM is not me! He's some
new right-winger. I'm the Bill that has posted on-and-off since the
beginning of H&R. I'll now go by the moniker:
The Real Bill
|1.15.05 @ 12:07AM|#
Thomas et al,
If you count the French-Indian War, even though you weren't
independent at the time, then it should be counted as a war against
Canada (or Quebec!), since the fighting was done between forces
from colonies which became the US and Canada, with help from the
mother country on both sides.
As far as Vichy France goes, it was an independent country in name
only. Moreover, I can't think of any significant engagement between
the Allies and Vichy France. The only ones that I know of are the
British sinking the French Navy at Mers El Kebir to prevent the
Germans from seizing it, and the short resistance when the
Americans landed in North Africa.
So on my count, it's one war, and a quasi one at that.
|1.15.05 @ 1:04AM|#
Count me as someone who had an enjoyable time in Paris. I have
no problem with the French. The French government, however, has
positioned itself as our rival and is working against us. Past wars
are not the issue. In the current environment, France is working
against us. Ergo, France is an enemy.
The nature of their opposition, though, is more in the way of
hindrance and annoyance, not a real threat. So I'm in favor of
working around them and against them diplomatically and
economically, as opposed to militarily.
Bolie IV
|1.15.05 @ 1:04AM|#
Each country in the War List should also have subtracted
from its total one point for each war we've been allied with them
in, wouldn't you say?
Sure. So as long as I fight next to you, I can turn around and beat
you upside the head each time?
|1.15.05 @ 2:03AM|#
MK,
"Ca Plane Pour Moi" _is_ a great song, but Plastic Bertrand was
Belgian, not French.
|1.15.05 @ 2:43AM|#
I see that on each of the lists of wars, Korea has 2 wars credited. I'm aware of the Korean War, 1950-1953 (which was also a war against China); which war do you count as the 2nd? If you mean WWII, they were a colony of Japan from 1910 until the end of WWII, not an independent country, so I don't think you can hold that against them.
|1.15.05 @ 2:43AM|#
"Reading Winston Churchill's memoirs and his account of the
reactions of Vichy leaders,"
Winston Churchill on the French and Germans - now there's a 24
carat unbiased source. I wouldn't trust the creep any farther than
etc.
|1.15.05 @ 3:42AM|#
I see that on each of the lists of wars, Korea has 2 wars
credited. I'm aware of the Korean War, 1950-1953 (which was also a
war against China); which war do you count as the 2nd? If you mean
WWII, they were a colony of Japan from 1910 until the end of WWII,
not an independent country, so I don't think you can hold that
against them.
There was a trade squabble in the 19th century, which, I believe
still has the record for highest kill ratio in military
history.
|1.15.05 @ 4:13AM|#
One leader's reaction to an American envoy was to say something
about how "stupid" Americans were, and how they were "as stupid as
the English".
Of course the Anglos were stupid. Who told them to 'rescue' the
French? They enjoyed killing off the Jews as much as Hitler did. In
fact they started rounding up the Jews before Hitler demanded
that.
triticale|1.15.05 @ 9:26AM|#
Any country that has produced such great food can't be all
that bad, can it?
Well no, if they would admit that the reason they produce such
great food is that Italians who moved there taught them to cook in
order to have edible food.
Evan McElravy|1.15.05 @ 10:05AM|#
So I'm in favor of working around them and against them
diplomatically and economically, as opposed to
militarily.
Very generous.
Sure. So as long as I fight next to you, I can turn around and
beat you upside the head each time?
I think vice versa has been the more usual order of things, TPG. By
the way, you might want to add a tick to the UK ranking for the
Civil War. No shots fired, but there was at least one naval
incident, and they were after all allied with the enemy side in an
all-out shooting war. (If you read histories of Canada, it was
taken pretty much as read post-Civil War that, unless strong
defensive measures were taken, pissed off Yankees were going to be
massing their forces outside Montr�al shortly.) Surely one of our
country's greatest nemeses.
Ernest Brown|1.15.05 @ 11:26AM|#
Well, if you boys are going to get misty-eyed over a country that venerates fascistic corporatism even more than the Republicans do, my opinion about both the French and "libertarians" as a "movement" are confirmed in spades.
|1.15.05 @ 1:57PM|#
Re: Greatest enemy and the count of conflicts. Are we including the XYZ affair where the French demanded that Americans pay $250,000 before the French government would even have diplomatic relations? This was followed by an undeclared naval war ensued between France and the United States.
|1.15.05 @ 3:36PM|#
Well if it wasn't for the King of France we'd all be looking
forward to Prince JugEars becoming our Head of State.
And look at how we repaid that favor.
|1.15.05 @ 5:36PM|#
As a french man I wonder why there's such animosity toward my
dear homeland.
Does France matter that much ?
According to french bashers it doesn't, so why are they wasting
their time picking on us ?
To complete that list of craps, I got some additional
commentaries,
- French ppl, just like the whole planet hate Bush.
- "La faute de Bush" is indeniable when it comes to some fabricated
crisis.
- Again, anti-americanism isn't an appropriate term, you should
rather say anti-bushism.
- None in France has forgotten chirac is a crook, just wait he
leaves his office.
- Sarkozy is not an option, he got no talent except convincing
himself he is a new leader.
Delano� is by far a much better choice, his First lady won't cost
anything.
- Lib�ration quotes might hurt puritain feelings, I think it's
pretty funny to learn about Castro's mistress' sexual
revelations...
- We got words for almost everything and everyone, by my dictionary
G.W.Bush's french name is Georges Buisson.
- And I almost forget, I don't fear to go back to the U.S. I won't
just go as long as you won't kick Bush out of the White
House.
Au revoir et merci for reading.
|1.15.05 @ 6:57PM|#
Hey good for you Joss, you got through a whole paragraph without
surrendering once.
Is that sound in the background someone crashing through the
Maginot line again? I should let you go.
|1.16.05 @ 10:40AM|#
There's something Emmanuel Goldstein about this whole France thing. We are instructed to hate it. We don't have to know why. Or if it even exists. But it doesn't matter anymore.
I think France is being used as a proxy hate figure for liberalism
in Europe, if Blair wasn't being such a useful idiot I think it
would be the British instead.
Here in Britian there has been no uptick in anti-French sentiment,
we feel the same about them as always, if they stopped being the
way they are I would feel disappointed, like they had given up on
life.
Here's a few arguments for the anti-British postion: The British
burnt down the Whitehouse along with a lot of other goverment
buildings in D.C. We like to suck on fags, and expect children to
use rubbers in the classroom.
(fags=cigarettes, rubber=eraser)
Franklin Harris|1.16.05 @ 9:19PM|#
The British burnt down the Whitehouse along with a lot of
other goverment buildings in D.C.
And you were doing us a favor.
But here is the bottom line, folks: The French are great because
they made the best porn. (Past tense because nobody has
made good porn since about 1983.) And the French made the best porn
because they had Brigitte Lahaie.
And Brigitte Lahaie is great because... well you can Google that
yourself... only don't try it at work.
|1.16.05 @ 10:54PM|#
What's all this about Vichy being a puppet government? The French themselves voted in the Vichy government, rather than continue to fight the advancing Nazis. True, a prime minister resign over the decision to seek an armistice with Germany, though the rest of the government ministers of consequence were for it, with some insisting forcefully. The French National Assembly itself voted the "Third Republic" out of existence and established the Vichy regime, under terms negotiated with the Germans. No one was holding a gun to their heads, well not directly anyway. They could have fought on, the whole country was not yet occupied, etc. (In fact, even after reaching its accord with the Germans Vichy retained the French navy.) But, well, surrender (excuse me, armistice) was so much more expedient at the time. And the Germans weren't so bad really, unless you were a Jew, and well too bad for them anyway, right? The Vichy Prime Minister was appointed by the elected President of the Third Republic, not installed by the Germans at all, by the way.
|1.17.05 @ 1:24AM|#
"No one was holding a gun to their heads, well not directly
anyway."
Although reasonable people might find the presence of panzertruppe
in their backyards & gardens rather persuasive.
|1.17.05 @ 3:07PM|#
You're right Franklin, mon ami, Brigitte Lahaie was the best. All my childhood! Vive la France! But I also miss Tracy Lord. I have a dream that one day, Misses Lahaie & Lord would be gathered for once and help to restore a true Franco-US fraternity.
|1.19.05 @ 7:03PM|#
TPG, don't forget the Barbary pirates, or the "Weekend War" against Corea (as it was called then) c. 1872 if memory serves me.
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