"Give your driver your 9mm, and carry their M16/M4"

Jeff Taylor | January 11, 2005

The New Yorker offers must-read detail on just how the Army's officer corps is dealing with Iraq. No surprise that informal, not-by-the-book information exchange has proven to be of tremendous value for the officers commanding companies in combat:

The younger officers have another advantage over their superiors: they grew up with the Internet, and have created for themselves, in their spare time, a means of sharing with one another, online, information that the Army does not control. The "slackers" in the junior-officer corps are turning out to be just what the Army needs in the chaos of Iraq. Instead of looking up to the Army for instructions, they are teaching themselves how to fight the war. The Army, to its credit, stays out of their way.

You might feel better about the Iraq mess after reading the entire piece, or you might feel sick over the waste of it all. I'm still up in the air myself.

Comments

|1.11.05 @ 1:50PM|#

The harbinger of bad news for the sites:

The military is now running them.

gaius marius|1.11.05 @ 1:53PM|#

"Take a knee," the officer said, impassive behind surfer sunglasses. The soldiers looked at him as if he were crazy. Then, one after another, swaying in their bulky body armor and gear, they knelt before the boiling crowd and pointed their guns at the ground. The Iraqis fell silent, and their anger subsided. The officer ordered his men to withdraw.

Army officers learn... [to] fire warning shots. "Problem with that is, the next thing you have to do is shoot them in the chest."

The obvious solution, to Hughes, was a gesture of respect.

why do so few of the pro-war crowd seem to understand this simple bit of humility and morality, and how far the practice of same can get you?

|1.11.05 @ 2:04PM|#

Other than use of the internet, there is nothing new to any of this.

|1.11.05 @ 2:16PM|#

A lot of officers are buying AK 47's locally to acompany their issue pistol. (an AK only goes for about $100, more if it is russian, less if it is Iraqi)

If I was the driver, I wouldn't want to give up my M4. I might need it if something happens to the vehicle.

Larry A|1.11.05 @ 2:17PM|#

I beg to disagree. As a 23 year old 1LT bound for Vietnam I was assured that I would have plenty of practical guidance from my experienced sergeants.

Then I was helicoptered out into the jungle and issued a platoon. The senior noncom was a 21 year old graduate of the NCO academy with less time in service than I had. Everyone else in the unit was a teenager.

The only outside communication I had was a radio that reached my company commander and could be accessed by his superiors. There was little or no communication with the lieutenants of the other platoons, and nothing that wasn't monitored both by my superiors and by my platoon sergeant's RTO. I didn't even meet all the other platoon leaders until we rotated into a firebase.

I would gladly have traded my M-16 for anything resembling Platoonleader.org.

|1.11.05 @ 2:20PM|#

why do so few of the pro-war crowd seem to understand this simple bit of humility and morality, and how far the practice of same can get you?

Ooooh, usually it's Joe using complex questions. Today we have Captain Lowercase using one!

Logical fallacies unite! Form of H&R posters!

Larry A|1.11.05 @ 2:21PM|#

"why do so few of the pro-war crowd seem to understand this simple bit of humility and morality, and how far the practice of same can get you?"

For the same reason so many of the anti-war crowd don't understand that there are times when humility doesn't work, and will get you killed.

|1.11.05 @ 2:22PM|#

"Give your driver your 9mm, and carry their M16/M4"

I thought this post was going to be about dealing with traffic in New Jersey.

|1.11.05 @ 2:28PM|#

I thought this post was going to be about dealing with traffic in New Jersey.

They're using M4's now? I thought that was limited to Atlanta and Los Angeles.

gaius marius|1.11.05 @ 2:30PM|#

the same reason so many of the anti-war crowd don't understand that there are times when humility doesn't work, and will get you killed.

fair enough, mr a.

|1.11.05 @ 2:36PM|#

complex = logical fallacy.

Good Bushie! Here's your liver snap.

Larry A|1.11.05 @ 2:48PM|#

OTOH on nothing new:
"The 9mm round is too weak, go for headshots if you use it."

We learned this lesson a hundred years ago fighting terrorists in the Philippines, and solved the problem by adopting the 1911 Colt in .45 ACP.

We could accomplish much the same result today by issuing hollowpoint 9MM ammo on the order of Winchester Silvertips, Federal Hydrashock, or Cor-Bon. But the logic of a pistol bullet that actually stops someone from attacking you and is much less likely to overpenetrate, go on downrange, ricochet, and take out someone you aren't shooting at is lost in the mainstream media's bias. The result of even suggesting this measure, which has been nearly universally adopted by U.S. law enforcement agencies, would cause an editorial firestorm.

|1.11.05 @ 2:48PM|#

complex = logical fallacy.


Maybe you oughta google that one before you start yappin, buddy.

Good Bushie! Here's your liver snap.

Funny. Ayn Randian calls me a leftist and Joe calls me a Bushie.

|1.11.05 @ 2:53PM|#

The result of even suggesting this measure, which has been nearly universally adopted by U.S. law enforcement agencies, would cause an editorial firestorm.

Which in and of itself makes it an idea worth looking into.

|1.11.05 @ 2:53PM|#

9mm is too weak, and 5.56 is too small. Some units are going to a new 6.8mm, and it is getting rave results.

I use a 5.56, but I would much rather be using 7.62x51. I would happily carry the extra weight.

|1.11.05 @ 2:54PM|#

TPG-
I think that's because Bush himself is a leftist compared to Ayn Randian.

Example the first: Bush never said or implied that tsunami victims were chiefly victims of their own stupidity.

|1.11.05 @ 2:55PM|#

Kwais-
Are you in Iraq?

|1.11.05 @ 3:02PM|#

Jennifer,
Yep, hence on the other thread I referenced being on a post with all men and no women. (actually as of recently there are two women.)

|1.11.05 @ 3:04PM|#

"I would happily carry the extra weight."

This may be the first time a soldier ever said that.

|1.11.05 @ 3:05PM|#

Kwais,
Have you read the article Jeff linked? If so, any thoughts on it?

|1.11.05 @ 3:08PM|#

TPG-
I think that's because Bush himself is a leftist compared to Ayn Randian.

Yup, and I'm far from leftist. And I'm far from a bushie.

I was criticizing Lieutenant Lowercase for using a complex question, not the argument itself. For someone as well-read as himself to OPEN a debate with a complex question is pretty weak, unless of course he's debating a very weak opponent. Then it's a great set up move. But he wasn't doing that. I think he let slip the dogs of emotion.

Unfortunately, Joe, ignorant to debate itself, thought I was criticizing an anti-war poster.

gaius marius|1.11.05 @ 3:09PM|#

Ayn Randian calls me a leftist

from where mr randian is, almost everyone is to the left.

|1.11.05 @ 3:26PM|#

TPG,
He was Captain lowercase just a little earlier on. How come he got demoted to Lt?

Shelby,
I read some of it, I mean to read the rest. It is 11:20 pm here, and I have to be hitting the rack pretty soon, so if I read the whole thing I wouldn't get to post. I found little points of contention in the little that I read. But overall it was interesting.

gaius marius|1.11.05 @ 3:43PM|#

I think he let slip the dogs of emotion.

of course i did. i can think wishfully as well, you know, mr goiter... :)

but something of a point remains. while i completely agree with mr a that humility is not universally applicable to the exclusion of all else, why do so many seem to find it universally inapplicable in any measure -- even vile?

|1.11.05 @ 4:08PM|#

"The result of even suggesting this measure, which has been nearly universally adopted by U.S. law enforcement agencies, would cause an editorial firestorm."

Except, I believe, that the Geneva Convention rules prohibit the use of any rifle/handgun ammo other than ball/FMJ (full metal jacket)--for "humanitarian" reasons.

|1.11.05 @ 4:38PM|#

TPG,
He was Captain lowercase just a little earlier on. How come he got demoted to Lt?

For the sake of alliteration.

|1.11.05 @ 4:47PM|#

Kwais: Thanks for your service, sir.

|1.11.05 @ 4:48PM|#

of course i did. i can think wishfully as well, you know, mr goiter... :)

That I do sir, that I do. However, I consider you a good foil and an excellent antagonist. Well, except when you get all "Locke said" and "Hobbes thought" on us. It was just a bizarre way to start a debate. Really, start a debate with a complex question, and the only expectation you should have is someone playing the Hitler card.


but something of a point remains. while i completely agree with mr a that humility is not universally applicable to the exclusion of all else, why do so many seem to find it universally inapplicable in any measure -- even vile?


I don't think that so many find it vile. I think that the loudest find it so. The dogma of aggression is species-wide, not some phenomenon local to a bunch of crazed General Turgidson's in Kansas. The ability to mitigate the aggression with logic and ethics, allows the normal to seperate from the Turgidson. Wheat from chaff, so to speak. It's what keeps the normal much more low-key. Much like the loudest refuse to consider the fact that the dogma of ONLY peace and humility is a tenable position.

|1.11.05 @ 4:50PM|#

Much like the loudest refuse to consider the fact that the dogma of ONLY peace and humility is NOT a tenable position.

gaius marius|1.11.05 @ 4:57PM|#

start a debate with a complex question, and the only expectation you should have is someone playing the Hitler card.

lol -- i see i'm not the only one with an appropriately low opinion of being human.

well said, all of it, mr goiter.

|1.11.05 @ 5:08PM|#

"Give your driver your 9mm, and carry their M16/M4"

I thought this was blog entry about the Missouri KKK getting a stretch of highway to pick up trash on.

|1.11.05 @ 5:15PM|#

Kwais-
Goddammit, now every time I go more than two days without seeing a post from you I'll worry that you were on that day's casualty list.

|1.11.05 @ 5:26PM|#

I have used the company command website before and was unaware of the platoon leader one. The company command website is a useful reference for when you want to find an answer concerning something fairly quickly (at least quick for me because I hate looking up regulations on a acrobat file or in a book). You can also pick up some shortcuts for paperwork monster on the site as well.

I tend to agree with the article and have told my peers many times that the Army doesn't want to produce free thinking individuals who can make decisions so much as it wants you to be able to memorize the specific regulation and act accordingly. In the Army's Officer Basic Courses you are often not told why you need to memorize something but expected to memorize it. Often not knowing what you memorized. As long as you can pass all tests then the Army is ready to send you off. I don't want to get into any specific gripes however, it seems like in almost all cases except for war in the Army the name of the game is cover your ass so that you can get promoted/get a good OER. In a war zone though you have to innovate and overcome regardless of the regulation in order to survive.

Anyway I would like to articulate on this stuff more but I don't have to time or the verbage right now and will check back later tonight.

|1.11.05 @ 5:50PM|#

The classical military doctrine for "hardball" ammo (full-metal jackets) is that merely wounding a soldier reduces the opposition's military-strength by three since someone has to stop a render aid...whereas killing a soldier only reduces their military-strength by one. This is all fine-and-good if fighting "civilized" armies and enemies. Wounding was seem as preferable to killing since "...War is the continuation of Policy by other means"; not a clash of civilizations. In WW-1, the Germans threatened to shot-upon-capture US troops who were using 12-gauge shotguns for trench-clearing. That directive was cancelled after word was sent via the ICRC that the US would execute 10 Germans in retaliation.

The adoption of the NATO-European 9mm Beretta pistol was accepted grudgingly in this spirit and for "commonality of ammo and parts". And the 5.56NATO-FMJ (.223 Rem.) is lighter than the 30-cal .30-06 and 7.62 NATO (.308); though few ethical hunters would use it on anything larger than a woodchuck....even with hollow-points.

|1.11.05 @ 6:32PM|#

Not to start another chapter in the eternal "5.56 vs 7.62" debate, but the M4 in 5.56 isn't nearly as ineffective as it might seem. This is coming from someone who idolizes Jeff Cooper, and considers the 1911 the perfect sidearm.

Yes, it's true that in hunter modalities, a single shot of 223 Rem is pretty wimpy. But with an M4, you get 186 grains of metal in an area about an inch top-to-bottom, with what is in effectively a single trigger pull.

If I hadn't seen what a three round burst will do to a 300 pound animal, I'd still hate the mouse cartridge too.

Larry A|1.11.05 @ 9:16PM|#

"The classical military doctrine for "hardball" ammo (full-metal jackets) is that merely wounding a soldier reduces the opposition's military-strength by three since someone has to stop a render aid...whereas killing a soldier only reduces their military-strength by one. This is all fine-and-good if fighting "civilized" armies and enemies. Wounding was seem as preferable to killing since "...War is the continuation of Policy by other means"; not a clash of civilizations."

To expand on this, the "wound him" scenario works pretty well if you're talking about a rifle bullet at fifty yards. But if a platoon leader or crew-served weapon type pulls out a Beretta it's usually eyeball-to-eyeball time. Success at that point involves knocking the other guy down before he can stick something in you.

"The adoption of the NATO-European 9mm Beretta pistol was accepted grudgingly in this spirit and for "commonality of ammo and parts"."

As I noted at the time, if the situation is such that your platoon leaders are running out of handgun ammo, commonality of calibers for resupply isn't going to make much difference.

"Except, I believe, that the Geneva Convention rules prohibit the use of any rifle/handgun ammo other than ball/FMJ (full metal jacket)--for "humanitarian" reasons."

NYC police officers found themselves in a similar situation in the 90s, when the city government limited them to 9MM hardball. They adopted the eminently logical solution of emptying their guns into anyone they had to shoot.

"Yes, it's true that in hunter modalities, a single shot of 223 Rem is pretty wimpy. But with an M4, you get 186 grains of metal in an area about an inch top-to-bottom, with what is in effectively a single trigger pull. If I hadn't seen what a three round burst will do to a 300 pound animal, I'd still hate the mouse cartridge too."

Are they still using the standard 18-round magazine over there? If so, the Army seems to have reinvented the six-shooter.

|1.12.05 @ 1:40AM|#

Larry A,
No the 30 round magazine is usually used (28 rounds to assure smooth operating). I personally use a 90 round drum, and all my extra ammo is in 30 rounders.

You would have to be pretty close to an individual to score three rounds in a small area in a real fight. I don't see that happening. We don't have the three round burst option on our M4's. I think that the three round burst option was for the most part never used.

The two options we have are semi and full auto. The latter is only usefull for shooting at vehicles.

|1.12.05 @ 1:43AM|#

Jennifer,
Don't worry about me. A lot of people at home already do. From time to time I will go for a while without being able to get onto H&R. Sometimes because the internet is down, and sometimes because of the work schedule.