New at Reason

Tim Cavanaugh | January 3, 2005

Julian Sanchez dusts off the Magna Carta for the War On Terror.

Comments

|1.3.05 @ 8:22PM|#

Hear, hear!

"We are, as the saying goes, at war--grappling with monsters. And sometimes mercy drops not like a gentle rain but a hailstorm: As of late December, a dozen of the roughly 200 Guantanamo detainees released were known to have returned--or at least turned--to the fight against the U.S."

Of course, if we had treated these combatants as prisoners of war, we wouldn't have had to release them until the conflict is definitively over. Who needs further evidence of the Bush Administration's gross incompetence?

|1.3.05 @ 9:11PM|#

And if we'd held trials to evaluate evidence we could have separated the wheat from the chaff.

CodeMonkeySteve|1.3.05 @ 9:43PM|#

"Jail 'em all, let God sort it out."

|1.4.05 @ 12:30AM|#

Have fun at Camp 6, suckers.

I, for one, welcome our new Republican overlords.

Peenie Wallie|1.4.05 @ 12:31AM|#

http://www.peeniewallie.com/archives_2005_01.htm#camp6

In the classic Kafka book "The Trial", a man is charged with a crime, but the crime is so secret, that it cannot be revealed to him. So the man must attempt to present a defense, although he is never sure of what crime he has been charged. Even in his most compelling, paranoid, macabre novel, Kafka fell short of envisioning the machinery of Guantanamo Bay.

The Pentagon and the CIA have asked the White House to prepare prisons for lifetime imprisonment of people that have never been charged with any crimes. The Defense Department plans to build "Camp 6" with your tax dollars to house hundreds of people in perpetuity, that will never have a trial, never speak to an attorney, and never be charged with a crime.

'That's OK.' You figure. 'They're terrorists, and I'm not a terrorist, so it doesn't affect me.' and you go back to your reality TV show while eating Doritos on the couch.

Who says you're not a terrorist? What's a terrorist? What about Eco-Terrorists? Do you own guns? Do you question the government? Do you drive an SUV? Remember, once you get tossed into these modern-day Con Son Island Tiger cages down in the Black Hole of Guantanamo Bay, you have no means to communicate with the outside world. There's no way to prove you're not a terrorist, once you're swallowed by Gitmo.

And just in case you need a little geography lesson, Guantanamo Bay is in Cuba, an island nation that your government won't even allow you to visit.

So you may want to hit pause on the Tivo and ask yourself - are you more afraid of a couple of muslims, or a government that's just been handed a license to erase people from the face of the earth?

http://www.peeniewallie.com/archives_2005_01.htm#camp6

Warren|1.4.05 @ 12:56AM|#

I am definitely more afraid of my own government than all the crazy rag-heads in the world combined.

|1.4.05 @ 1:05AM|#

Excellent article Sanchez.

If the detainees are regular prisoners of war, who haven't committed war crimes or acts of terrorism, they can't be held indefinitely. They must be returned to the country or political entity they are from after the cessation of hostilities with the same. If the have committed a crime, the government has to prove it and give them a fair trial before sentencing them.

It will not work to say: "We will release them after the war, but the war on terror is still going on" The "war on terror" is not a war in that sense of the term. It is more like a series of wars (Afganistan, Iraq?, whatever is next, etc.) combined with espionase and intelligence opperations, like the cold war.

It is not clear, as Sanchez pointed, out what constitutes the end of such a "war". As long as there is even one asshole running around thinking "I'd sure like to blow up some civilians. I think I'll try to." one can argue terrorism hasn't been defeated. Treating anyone captured in the course of fighting terrorism (or allegedly in the course thereof) as an enemy combatant in an abstract war against terrorism is giving the government license to detain anyone indefinitely as long as they say "oh yea that guy is an enemy combatant".

No government should have such power.

|1.4.05 @ 7:46AM|#

Argh! Where are the checks and balances for all this unchecked, unbalanced power? How can the administration not be choking on their own hypocrisy? (I know, they had that gene removed long ago, but STILL...)

Can we at LEAST throw an inaugural ball to "honor" these detainees?

|1.4.05 @ 8:26AM|#

I wonder if the guy who came up with this brilliant idea was a fan of "The Prisoner?" Camp Six, Number Six. . . of course, the big bouncy balls will be camouflaged, not white.

gaius marius|1.4.05 @ 9:39AM|#

We are at war. But even wars have rules

the frightening part, mr sanchez, is that the people you are inveighing against -- the hegelian nationalists, the self-appointed nietzschean supermen of our nation -- plainly see no merit in rules. they have spent most of their time in power vivisecting the rules.

they have instead grasped the "war on terror" as a heroic and holy struggle for life and heart which cannot be judged by rules. america is prometheus, and they would see it unbound to ravage the world with its noble, passionate work -- or so goes the narrative.

i think it totally lost to argue rules to these people. they have already discounted rules -- because they, in their arrogance, cannot believe that rules may exist to protect all of us (as well as them) from ourselves (and themselves). their heroic judgement makes any rule which opposes them obsolete.

i suspect that if the constitution stands as an impediment to their will to power, it can not long stand -- even with the aid of what grudging respect they may still afford it.

|1.4.05 @ 9:39AM|#

"Who says you're not a terrorist? What's a terrorist? What about Eco-Terrorists? Do you own guns? Do you question the government? Do you drive an SUV? Remember, once you get tossed into these modern-day Con Son Island Tiger cages down in the Black Hole of Guantanamo Bay, you have no means to communicate with the outside world. There's no way to prove you're not a terrorist, once you're swallowed by Gitmo."

This has hit the nail with a ball-peenie hammer.

I wouldn't feel so bad about Dubya's mindset if he'd clean out the sleeper cells in my own 'hood. But he can't, because the NAACP is providing their human shields.

|1.4.05 @ 9:54AM|#

I am definitely more afraid of my own government than all the crazy rag-heads in the world combined.

Then the only rational thing to do is move to where you can find the most crazy rag-heads. I suggest the al-Sadr neighborhood in Baghdad, since the biggest concentration of crazy rag-heads, Saudi Arabia, won't even let you in the door.

Anyone who think they have less to fear in Sadr City than in America is completely out of their freaking mind, of course.

|1.4.05 @ 10:14AM|#

"If the detainees are regular prisoners of war, who haven't committed war crimes or acts of terrorism, they can't be held indefinitely. They must be returned to the country or political entity they are from after the cessation of hostilities with the same."

It seems to me that we had a parallel situation during the late 19th century Indian wars. When we captured Geronimo and his warriors, we kept them as prisoners of war, without either releasing them or bringing them to trial, for the rest of their lives. Presumably, the justification for this was the perception that there had been no "cessation of hostilities," that if we released them they would resume their war on the United States, and that the only safe thing to do was to keep them detained indefinitely.

Does anyone know if there was any discussion at the time of the legal status of captives in the Indian wars?

gaius marius|1.4.05 @ 10:21AM|#

Then the only rational thing to do is move to where you can find the most crazy rag-heads.

america -- love it or leave it -- because if you try to argue constructively against its bizarre excesses, we're going to throw your ass in camp 6, you child-murdering stalinist!

right, mr dean? this is essentially what you meant to say, isn't it?

|1.4.05 @ 10:55AM|#

gaius marius,

I believe RC Dean was merely pointing out what the logical course of action is, for someone who fears the US govt more than "all the crazy rag-heads in the world."

But as always, I can understand that a partisan hack like yourself might have trouble evaluating the posts of those you disagree with.

|1.4.05 @ 10:59AM|#

Gawd Bless Amerika...or he'll smote your ass!

|1.4.05 @ 11:03AM|#

What is America or any country? There are obviously some distinctions between regions and cultures, but national boundaries are all in our imaginations.

Saying there are "countries" says that we are the slave to this master, not that master.

|1.4.05 @ 11:24AM|#

RC-
I didn't see you on the threads discussing the new plan to give the government authority to give life sentences to people for whom there's not enough evidence to go to trial; Camp Six will be a holding-place. What is your opinion concerning the government's new initiative?

|1.4.05 @ 11:43AM|#

"Saying there are "countries" says that we are the slave to this master, not that master."

Pinto'stout,
I'm thinking of starting a peaceful anarchist group on Google. Whattya think?

drf|1.4.05 @ 11:44AM|#

you're an expert here, too RC. wow. maybe you and clothier can mate!

|1.4.05 @ 11:53AM|#

Ruthless,
I've been meaning to get a google account anyway.

gaius marius|1.4.05 @ 12:31PM|#

I believe RC Dean was merely pointing out what the logical course of action is, for someone who fears the US govt more than "all the crazy rag-heads in the world."

seriously, mr crimethink? seriously? the dualism of al-sadr and america is a suggstion of a "logical course of action"?

and yet you think *i'm* a hack? this would be laughable if there weren't so many myopic sociopathic nationalists around these days.

|1.4.05 @ 1:52PM|#

Camp 6? So, where are camps one through five?

|1.4.05 @ 2:08PM|#

Lord Duppy-
Same place the movies Leonard, parts 1 through 5, were filmed.

|1.4.05 @ 4:38PM|#

I think Camps 1-5 are located in Areas 1-50. And Camp 6 will be put in Nevada, right next to Area 51.

And no, I don't think the tinfoil on my hat requires any adjustment, thank-you very much! :->

|1.5.05 @ 1:06AM|#

gaius marius,

No one's saying that Warren should move to al-Sadr. What RC is saying is that if he'd feel less safe there than in the US, then he's not "definitely more afraid of the government than all the crazy rag-heads in the world."

And it's dr. crimethink! ;-)