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Tim Cavanaugh | December 8, 2004

Were they the Beautiful People, or just Squares with long hair? Nick Gillespie lets his freak flags fly for Barry Miles' Hippie.

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|12.8.04 @ 11:09AM|#

Yet even as Miles documents the misogyny at the heart of much of �freak culture,�...

I always take heat for saying that.

Such a pose ignores that �the revolution� was in many ways built around items for sale�ranging from record albums to drugs to psychedelic trousers to acres of pristine communeland.

Oh yeah! Drugs especially equalled money.

We live in a looser, less uptight America thanks to the antics of San Francisco�s Diggers, New York�s Fugs, and every anonymous longhair in between.

Foolish. To see uptight just mention the misogyny or the money behind the drugs.

|12.8.04 @ 11:12AM|#

Its hard to find a better exposure to the Love Culture of Haight Ashbury than Joan Didion's Slouching Towards Bethlehem.
I've always felt that the closest one can come to understanding those times is to read STB and Hunter Thompson's Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas. Neither alone suffices, the two together are a brilliant expose of a time and a culture.

Shirley Knott

Warren|12.8.04 @ 11:18AM|#

We live in a looser, less uptight America thanks to the antics of San Francisco�s Diggers, New York�s Fugs, and every anonymous longhair in between.

Yeah maybe. And maybe the "moral majority" was able to declared a War On Drugs and enact the rest of their puritanical state, because of those freaks.

I myself am somewhat enamored with the hippies. I like most things 60's, Janis and Jimi, tie dye, lava lamps, flowers, etc. As an individualist, I'm opposed to most hippie politics but oddly favor much of the philosophy. I'm in favor of peace and love and creative self-expression.

fyodor|12.8.04 @ 11:20AM|#

D Anghelone,

I always take heat for saying that.

As well you should! :-) In our last discussion on the subject you failed to document it in any way beyond repeated assertion and saying that hippie girls wore flowers!

I find it very interesting that one of the few changes in this slightly re-written review is that this time Gillespie says the author "documents" this misogyny whereas last time he treated this meme as an accepted fact. Well, I'd be curious to see such documentation. I would never say the hippies were perfect by any means, but the charge of misogyny has always struck me as absurd, even if we interpret the word in some sort of an expanded manner, but especialy if we use the literal dictionary meaning, ie, hatred of women. Yeah, that's why women were all running away from freak culture as fast as they could, huh?

|12.8.04 @ 11:22AM|#

"I expected them to all be nice and clean and friendly and happy, ... sounding more like Spiro Agnew than Ravi Shankar"

Actually, Ravi Shankar was Spiro Agnew. I can't seem to find a link right now but he has described hippies as indisciplined, uncultured, lacking respect for authority, free lovin' (which he disapproved of but, in true conservative fashion, seems to have practiced anyway) etc. Which only makes sense when you keep in mind that he is an indian Classical musician - those guys tend to be tyrants about discipline and tradition.
And incidentally, he has also said that the rock songs of the period which used the sitar for groovy quotient were all crap, bar none. Good judgement on his part - "within you, without you" is a mutant monstrosity.

|12.8.04 @ 11:25AM|#

"Gillespie says the author "documents" this misogyny whereas last time he treated this meme as an accepted fact. Well, I'd be curious to see such documentation."

In Forrest Gump, that anti-war militant dude slaps the hippie chick. Surely that's proof enough, fyodor ;-}

|12.8.04 @ 11:28AM|#

Your confusion at the distinctin between commerce in cultural goods and the commodification of culture is pretty damn square. Man.

fyodor|12.8.04 @ 11:28AM|#

As an individualist, I'm opposed to most hippie politics but oddly favor much of the philosophy. I'm in favor of peace and love and creative self-expression.

Yeah, that's an interesting paradox for me, too. I think it comes down to certain leftist misunderstandings about the nature of freedom in relation to economics. Hippies largely "lived" free compared to most others, and their desire to control others in the marketplace was due more to said misunderstanding than the kind of oppressive instincts that make people want to put people in jail for smoking pot.

Well...it's probably more complicated than that, but that's one way to look at it! :-)

Mike|12.8.04 @ 11:47AM|#

Yet even as Miles documents the misogyny at the heart of much of "freak culture"...

So hippies did have something in common with the rest of the squares after all. And really, "at the heart"? Drugs and music, maybe. Politics and food, possibly. Sex, definitely. But misogyny? It's quite a stretch to implicate this subculture in something so obviously inherent in the culture at large.

|12.8.04 @ 11:56AM|#

As well you should! :-) In our last discussion on the subject you failed to document it in any way beyond repeated assertion and saying that hippie girls wore flowers!

That is something you cannot document. Bullshit!

You can document your experiences; what you've witnessed? Doubtful, but you can legitimately relate as witness.

|12.8.04 @ 11:57AM|#

--Such a pose ignores that �the revolution� was in many ways built around items for sale�ranging from record albums to drugs to psychedelic trousers to acres of pristine communeland.

Nice point but indeed, one could say the whole Sixties counterculture was made possible by the immense wealth of the nation. Never before or since have we had such a secure, comfortable middle class. The children of the bourgeoisie were free to act out in ways unimaginable to their precedecessors because of this safety net.

fyodor|12.8.04 @ 11:59AM|#

Mike,

Thank you. Although I would hesitate to say misogyny, as it's literally defined, is "at the heart" of just about any widespread culture short of the Taliban, you're quite correct to point out that what the backers of this questionable position point to in freak culture (that women were treated as sex objects, that they did not enjoy full equality with men) was hardly unique to that subculture.

SM,

lol!!

|12.8.04 @ 12:01PM|#

If you listen to the lyrics of a lot of 70s/early 80s punk music, there's quite a bit of misogyny there, too. Perhaps some of this can be attributed to a rebellion against the patriarchal concept of putting women on a pedestal. Mainstream society always put women in an inferior position, but protected then through a system of manners. Said manners being one of the square concepts dismissed as old fashioned by cultural radicals, who saw liberation primarily as tearing down. The positive work of constructing a new, equal position for women was yet to come.

A lot of commentary on "the" 60s/Hippie/Lefty mileau ignores the gaping internal divisions therein. Much of the left - even the new left - saw hippies as irresponsible pursuers of their own desires, who lacked any interest in reforming politics. Similarly, I've read about hippies complaining about the "Stalinists" who didn't allow weed in their rooming houses.

fyodor|12.8.04 @ 12:10PM|#

That is something you cannot document. Bullshit!

Bullshit back to you, dude. Funny how you claim it's impossible to document such a thing right after taking comfort from Gillespie's claim that this phenomenon was documented in the book he reviewed!! And why should it be undocumentable? Did prominent freaks commonly make misogynistic comments? Is there lots of footage of real freaks slapping women? Does footage of the time show all men and no women participating in "freak culture"? The only reason it can't be documented is that it didn't exist in any meaningful way except in your personal impression. And as far as that goes, well it counts for something, but since individuals all have their personal biases, I wouldn't say it counts for a whole lot, especially in light of my own impression being radically different. And while I was only 11 in 1969, I think I picked up on the flavor of the times and I've known plenty of freaks of that era since and have never known them to utter a misogynistic word.

|12.8.04 @ 12:20PM|#

My wife grew up in a hippie commune in the mountains of Montana that Alan Ginsburg used to visit. Not a great child rearing environemt.

Joe I rarely heard any misogyny in punk music in the early 80's. Who you talking about? Bad Brains? Minor Threat? Circle Jerks? Black Flag? Big Black? Husker Du? The Minutemen? Dead Kennedys?

Usually what I heard was the usual young male confusion/angst over the concept of being "pussy-whipped". It's that time of life when you really want to be with a girl 24/7, but don't want to lose credibility with the guys.

|12.8.04 @ 12:29PM|#

trainwreck, you've singled out a number of overtly progressive bands, and it is true, there was a great diversity of views.

But consider the casual, fun brutality towards women the Misfits sang about. Or the frat-house sexism of Murphy's Law. Of the schoolyard homophobia that occasionally turned up in Descendants lyrics (which makes sense, since they were about 15 years old).

I'm not saying that there was a conscious philosophy of sexism that was articulated, just that the rowdy, bad-boy aesthetic of the less thoughtful or political bands sometimes celebrated some pretty bad behavior towards chicks.

fyodor|12.8.04 @ 12:40PM|#

The Ramones sang gleefully about violence of all kinds, but it was so cartoonish it hardly seemed mean spirited or hateful. The Buzzcocks more often sang songs reflecting a deep romanticism, albeit often a frustrated one. (Some of The Ramones' songs were romantic too, believe it or not.) Iggy Pop sang that he loved girls because he could talk to them and he liked to look at them. The Stranglers liked walking on the beaches and looking at the peaches. There was an aesthetic of the time of stripping away artifice and pretense, which perhaps ties into joe's analysis. I guess I don't know much about The Misfits or Murphy's Law.

|12.8.04 @ 12:44PM|#

The American punk scene in the early 1980's was without a doubt male-dominated. "Skateboard is all I do, skateboard, I'm better than you..."---but young guys just being young guys is different from misogyny.

And the Misfits were misfits even back then.

As far as hippies, I for one never really understood the punk slogan "Never trust a hippie".

Nathan|12.8.04 @ 12:54PM|#

The Misfits are the aural equivalent of a B grade horror flick. Its entertainment, not a manifesto. Taking their lyrics seriously is like taking a GWAR show seriously.

Perhaps some of this can be attributed to a rebellion against the patriarchal concept of putting women on a pedestal. Mainstream society always put women in an inferior position, but protected then through a system of manners. Said manners being one of the square concepts dismissed as old fashioned by cultural radicals, who saw liberation primarily as tearing down.

Remember kids, misogyny is perfectly acceptable if done for the right reasons.

Chris Puzak|12.8.04 @ 1:05PM|#

Trainwreck:

The Bad Brains were frequently attacked (especially by the band MDC) for their alleged homophobia. Plus, I know Steve Albini has often been accused of misogyny for songs like "I'm a Wreck" and his band Rapeman. Plus, Black Flag took a lot of flack for the songs "Slip It In". And let's not forget the somewhat less than pro-womyn lyrics of the Mentors, Fear, The Meatmen, and G.G. Allin.

|12.8.04 @ 1:07PM|#

Not sure I buy the whole 'this subculture was more misogynist than that' argument. But as to hippies being as capable of it as anyone else:

Ira Einhorn

Murdering your girlfriend and stuffing her body in a trunk because she's going to leave you-- yeah, I guess you could call that misogynist.

And telling the police "no, I haven't seen her since a few days ago when she went to the grocery to buy tofu and sprouts."

|12.8.04 @ 1:09PM|#

"Taking their lyrics seriously is like taking a GWAR show seriously."

Hey Nathan, did you hear about the Jew who...Hey, just a joke, don't take it seriously. You can't really understand where someone's coming from by their humor and casual comments, you fag. Whoa, hey, just a joke!

"Remember kids, misogyny is perfectly acceptable if done for the right reasons." Except for completely reversing the meaning of my criticism, that's very insightful, Nathan.

|12.8.04 @ 1:12PM|#

Somewhere I think Jonah Goldberg just had an ulcer.

fyodor|12.8.04 @ 1:23PM|#

Just Another Lurker,

I would never, ever take umbrage at the notion that hippies were capable of being just as bad as anyone else. But that just wasn't what was said. Since you evidently don't buy the notion that freak culture was more misogynistic than other cultures, I should conclude that we agree.

joe,

I was about to tell Nathan that I didn't interpret your words the way he did, but now that you've said he got your analysis completely backwards, I'm not sure if I understand you either. Are you saying that the tearing down of the old ways before adequate substitutes for them could be found was an outright bad thing?

|12.8.04 @ 1:45PM|#

fyodor, I think it would have been better to do the two simultaneously, or to establish the new norm and let it sqeeze out the old norm, but that's not what happened. I don't know if it could have happened like that, given that "respecting the womenfolk" was so tied to the traditional modes of thinking that maintained their subordination. But it would have been nice.

Now, I still it was better for the old sexism to be toppled, even if the path that progress took was flawed. But that doesn't mean I approve of everything that happened.

You should have known I'd nuance you into a coma when you asked the question. ;-)

fyodor|12.8.04 @ 2:00PM|#

nuance...nuance...nuance.........glbrthlshplift.....

|12.8.04 @ 2:05PM|#

All these folks had such a great thing going with the sexual revolution. But then when their kids came along (my generation) repression sounded really good again. I guess we just don't outnumber our parents enough to demand change. Tom Wolfe just wrote a book accusing us of our indulgence, but we pale in comparison to the campus of the 60's. I guess this all comes back to the "freedom for me, but not anyone else" idea that drove me to libertarianism in the first place.

|12.8.04 @ 2:11PM|#

And while I was only 11 in 1969, I think I picked up on the flavor of the times and I've known plenty of freaks of that era since and have never known them to utter a misogynistic word.

I was 24 in 1969 and knew people before and after the hippie affectations. Same people with different lingo and different taboos.

Back then I had high hopes for the changes Gillespie believes occurred but saw most of it to be superficial.

Nathan|12.8.04 @ 2:13PM|#

Hey Nathan, did you hear about the Jew who...Hey, just a joke, don't take it seriously. You can't really understand where someone's coming from by their humor and casual comments, you fag. Whoa, hey, just a joke!

Context joe, context. Otherwise I take it you thing Blazing Saddles is the most racist movie ever made. But I digress (nice attempt at skewing what I said, though). Do you really believe the Misfits (who, by the way I'm no particular fan of) are a bunch of frothing, women hating / racist / homophobic folks? Do you listen to their songs and recoil in horror, convinced that they're some front group for the KKK? If so you've got no sense of... well sense.

"Remember kids, misogyny is perfectly acceptable if done for the right reasons." Except for completely reversing the meaning of my criticism, that's very insightful, Nathan.

Or, joe, maybe it wasn't a criticism but simply a summation of that attitude. Jesus, you see enemies everywhere don't you. Methinks your tinfoil hat needs refitting.

If you want criticism then all I can offer is the whole notion of tarring a "movement" (e.g. punk, rock, rap, country, ..., any type of art really) with some overarching meaning is absurd. For every Clash there were 100 punk bands that played punk because it was a) easy, b) aggressive and c) could get them laid / paid. They were not sitting around trying to determine how to plot a "rebellion against the patriarchal concept;" they were trying to figure out how to get score dope and get in Susi's pants.

|12.8.04 @ 3:01PM|#

Hmm, I happened to be listening to Dead Milkmen's "Punk Rock Girl" while reading this thread... no punk misogyny in here.

|12.8.04 @ 3:12PM|#

I've always felt that the closest one can come to understanding those times is to read STB and Hunter Thompson's Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.

STB I think is more geared towards those times. I think Fear and Loathing is really about the change towards the harder-charging, more self-indulgent drug culture of the 70's.

|12.8.04 @ 3:13PM|#

errr, I meant later 70's. Sorry for the confusion.

|12.8.04 @ 3:18PM|#

If you want criticism then all I can offer is the whole notion of tarring a "movement" (e.g. punk, rock, rap, country, ..., any type of art really) with some overarching meaning is absurd.

Thank you for saying that. I love to listen to discussions about the meaning behind and the intent of the "grunge" movement, or the "punk" era. Yougottabekiddingme! Popularity begets popularity and thus fads and trends are born. Young people don't graft themselves on to "movements" because it's an outlet for expression. Rather, they follow these movements because it's popular and other people are doing it. Artists within these movements do the same. It's popular and it makes money.

|12.8.04 @ 3:57PM|#

As an erstwhile punk, I remember a big motivator was the crazy punk girls (although most of us wound up with New Wave girls - I wound up marrying an INXS groupie - as in the Great Plains song).

"Punks, you identify them if you go back to the fifties and sixities as a bunch of greasers who are more right-wing and anti-peace demonstrations and that kinda stuff. Then suddenly in the punk rock movement you start having these left-wing kids who are really hippies who have become punks but are still really hippies.

"I think punk should be right wing. That's how I see it. The left wing is trying to destroy America by giving handouts to everyone and making everyone dependent on them."

Mars bless and keep you, Johnny Ramone.

|12.9.04 @ 12:36AM|#

Fabius Cunctator,

It sounds like Johnny Ramone would been the clear choice over Bush or Kerry.

I still find the New Wave look for girls one of the best of the many great things about that genre.

On the hippies: Their politics was more libertarian than they are given credit for. True, they aligned with anti-war candidates such as Gene McCarthy, and with that came a certain amount of leftism. But in many ways, even this leftism was less authoritarian then the left is now. In the 60's liberals were more reliably for civil liberties then they are now. What was the name of that poor woman that they dragged off the floor at the 2004 Democrat convention for the sin of unfurling an anti-war banner? (Raimondo, over at Antiwar.com covered the incident) Much of the anti-authoritarian sentiment of the hippies is reflected in the popular tunes of the day.

|12.9.04 @ 7:33AM|#

The hippies should have all left on some spaceship headed for the Eden planet. That way there wouldn't be any evidence that they're at least as goofy and annoying as anybody else when they get old. We could then worship them as superbeings formerly in our midst.

|12.9.04 @ 8:22AM|#

On the hippies: Their politics was more libertarian than they are given credit for.

A New Leftist paradox was, and is, a demand for both individual liberties and collectivist legislation.