Jacob Sullum | November 30, 2004
Julian notes the fuzziness regarding basic economics that Justice John Paul Stevens displayed during yesterday's oral arguments in Ashcroft v. Raich. In a similar vein, the government's brief in the case quotes a 9th Circuit ruling claiming that "laws criminalizing the possession of a good decrease the demand for that good. This decreased demand results in a decrease of supply as production becomes less profitable and therefore less attractive." The barriers created by prohibition almost certainly deter some use, so that overall demand for the proscribed substance is lower than it would otherwise be, even allowing for a "forbidden fruit" effect. But one of the most familiar aspects of prohibition is that it allows black-market traffickers to earn a huge risk premium, which makes drugs much more profitable, not less so.
The government also asserts that "local manufacture, distribution, and use of controlled substances--and their possession for those purposes--directly increase the supply of those substances, which in turn increases demand for these substances, which leads to further increases in supply and the marketing to users, thus 'swelling' the traffic in the drug." Not only is the government suggesting that supply creates its own demand; in this context, it is claiming that letting patients grow marijuana to treat their own symptoms will make pot more popular. That has not been the case so far in California, where pot smoking among teenagers has declined substantially since the passage of the state's medical marijuana initiative in 1996. But perhaps it's just a matter of time before the association with AIDS, cancer, nausea, vomiting, muscle spasms, and agonizing pain makes marijuana cooler than ever.
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"local manufacture, distribution, and use of controlled
substances-and their possession for those purposes-directly
increase the supply of those substances, which in turn increases
demand for these substances, which leads to further increases in
supply and the marketing to users, thus 'swelling' the traffic in
the drug."
Well these are Reaganite supply-siders, arent they?
If all this musing and philosophizing--totally irrelevant to the Interstate Commerce Clause--is being heard by the Supremes, then who's asking them if we own our own bodies?
AIDS, cancer, nausea, vomiting, muscle spasms, and agonizing pain: my anti drug(s).
That is quite possibly the stupidest statement I've heard from
the Supremes.(Leaving aside Dredd Scott).
Could it be any more clear that they are seeking something,
anything, to uphold the federal government's position.
As I said yesterday, all we'll see out of this is the setting of a
destructive precedent.
This is the second time I've seen a post appear between two other posts. What's up with that?
Mark,
Wouldn't a "destructive precedent" be the best outcome?
Then it would force more "discussion" and social "activity."
Maybe reframing the debate in terms of "Do we own our bods or
not?"
it is claiming that letting patients grow marijuana to treat
their own symptoms will make pot more popular. That has not been
the case so far in California, where pot smoking among teenagers
has declined substantially since the passage of the state's medical
marijuana initiative in 1996.
Come on. Medical marijuana laws are a good thing, yes. Marijuana
use has dropped in CA, yes (I assume). But do you *really* think
the two trends are connected? Leave fuzzy corrolations to the
experts at the DEA.
Mike, he's not claiming that medical marijuana laws caused teenage pot use to decrease, but rather that it is a fact that they have not caused them to increase.
First, Mark, you should read more SC statements. They get a lot
dumber. Try reading the desenting opinion in the last flag-burning
case.
Next, in addition to the forbiddion fruit effect there is the fact
that the huge profits create an incentive for dealers to
aggressively market their products. Then there is the the fact that
prohibition encourages dealers and users to switch to more potent
and concentrated versions of their favorite substances. Much as
alchohol prohibition made beer drinkers switch to moonshine drug
prohibition made opium users switch to heroin. This intensifies the
drug's impact and likelihood to encourage long term use and
physical dependency (which reinforces usage although it is not the
same thing as the largely fictional public idea of addiction).
Thus, prohibition not only can increase demand but also fortify
it.
BTW, you'll be pleased to note that I am now a member of Mensa so I
am not only a smart-ass but a card-carrying smart-ass.
Joe:
Moveable type timestamps posts with the time at which they were
started, not the time they were actually posted. So if I start in
on a longish post that I leave for a while and come back to, it'll
still show up below any shorter posts that go up in the
interim.
Yikes, these guys need an econ class, stat.
I have a huge supply of dirt in my backyard, but there doesn't seem
to be any demand. Maybe I should get some more dirt because that
will increase demand.
This doesn't make sense in any possible way. Replace dirt with
cars, food, electronics, etc. and it still doesn't make sense.
Judges were supposed to have taken logic classes right? I'm trying
to see how anyone could come to that conclusion, seeing as they
don't make any mention of prices going down.
Some basic econ and/or at least some control theory.
Some government officials don't seem to understand that:
price and supply form a negative feedback loop
price and demand form a negative feedback loop
These two feedback loops wreck havoc on their puny little brains.
Poor guys.
Supply does have the ability to create it's own demand such as
when a new way to create cloth cheaply leads to an increase in
demand for clothing. That's a basic priciple that allows an economy
to grow.
The absurdity of the government's case in this instance is that the
supply is not so much being increased as it is being displaced away
from the illicit market. The legal sale isn't an enhancement of the
the black market but a detraction unless, as Mr Sullum has stated,
suffering is a glamorous subculture that gilds the image of pot
smoking.
One could play devil's advocate and argue that legal use could lead
to sick people continuing to smoke after they recover. Quite
frankly, I'm more than willing , in the worst case scenario, to
trade a pothead for a cancer patient. Of course the government has
long shown that it is on the side of cancer. Then again, the fed
has fashioned itself after cancer for decades.
This just keeps getting my fucking dimal every day. I feel like taking up heroin.
New Mensa card carrying smartass,
Do you mean the fed has fashioned itself after cancer in the sense
it's metastasizing?
I mean that it's fashioned itself after cancer in the way that, in cancer, elements of an organism grow beyond control and begin to spread into every part of the body causing pain, disrupting bodily functions and eventually killing the organism if left unchecked.
"Supply does have the ability to create it's own demand such as
when a new way to create cloth cheaply leads to an increase in
demand for clothing."
I am not an economist but can you really say that supply is
creating the demand? Price, quality, utility and fashion are also
considerations, one would think. There's a lot of un-sellable,
cheap, polyester stretch pants out there.
I am thinking specifically of the cotton clothing revolution that
was a combination of the supply and price of cotton, technological
innovation, low barriers to entry, etc. and the fact that the
demand was already there (cotton clothing being more comfortable
and hygienic than wool) but could not be satisfied because of the
former cost of the product. In other words, the demand existed
before the supply (at least at cheap prices for the hoi
polloi).
Demand would seem to be the cause of supply and not vice versa. If
someone doesn't want it, you can supply all you want (until you run
out of money).
But, like I said, I'm not an economist.
QFMC cos. V
Here's what the government should do: announce that all (real)
illnesses and conditions are now classified as "goods" -- since, by
their reasoning, everything is apparently interstate commerce.
Next, declare a war on "AIDS, cancer, nausea, vomiting, muscle
spasms, and agonizing pain" etc. This is best done by criminalizing
those (real) conditions and illnesses. Since it's not actually
possible to harass, arrest and imprison these pesky conditions,
though, the government will have to simply shift the focus to
criminalizing the people who carry them.
Thus, by the government's reasoning, since "laws criminalizing the
possession of a good decrease the demand for that good," we'd see a
precipitous fall in people demanding (and, therefore, "attaining,"
as Magic Johnson so eloquently stated) AIDS, cancer, nausea,
etc.
Since the government is so obviously right, their war on sick
people -- not to be confused with their existing war on pain
patients and their doctors -- will immediately cause a precipitous
drop in rates of these diseases.
This must be done! I demand it! The Interstate Commerce Clause
demands it! That fuckwad Stevens demands it!
Supply creates demand is can be backed out of dozens of dumb government policies -- electric cars, mass transit, cheese -- on and on.
Supply only creates demand if the market responds favorably.
Simply producing mounds of crap does not create demand.
The government's arguement here seems to be that growing MJ for
medical use expands the supply base and will thus increase the
demand. The flaw here is that medical MJ is not better or easier to
acquire and thus will lack the market effects of true innovation.
Like it or not, MJ is a common weed and supply is extremely
flaxible. Medical production is unlikely to effect potential
production. Indeed, it's more likely to take a bite out of the
illicit market by pulling patients into the legal realm.
Since I do love playing devil's advocate, here's another
consideration: could medical MJ lead to a peripheral increase in
use in the friends and family of patients who use it? Any responses
to this idea?
Eryk, I think your last question is a valid one -- peripheral use could increase -- but I respectfully and honestly answer: Who cares? The government has neither a right nor a responsibility to be dabbling in the drug-prevention business, and certainly can't use the ICC to do so.
Supply does have the ability to create it's own demand such
as when a new way to create cloth cheaply leads to an increase in
demand for clothing.
But in that case, it's the low price that increases the demand, not
the supply. If you mean that cheap production allowed the supply to
increase to levels that sated the demand. In that case the supply
merely reflected the pent up demand, rather than creating new
demand.
For the record, I'm just presenting an academic question in anticipation of a possible arguement.
Fabius et al. (Latin, get it?)--
It seems to me What you *can* say is that the price/supply curve is
being shifted horizontally, resulting in a new, lower equilibrium
price at a higher number of units supplied/demanded. The supply
curve can shift for a number of reasons, but essentially a shift
one direction means that supplies are higher at any given price
level than before, and vice-versa for the other direction. If we
just say that "the supply increases," does that mean with the price
held constant, or not? If so, then I would interpret that as a
shift in the supply curve, which will result in a new equilibrium
at a lower price and higher demand level. Does that mean that the
increased supply caused the increase in demand? Maybe, but it would
probably IMO be more accurate to say that the shift in the supply
curve caused the increase in both demand *and* supply. Could that
be caused by the introduction of additional producers/distributors
in the market? Sure. I think we call that "competition" and on this
blog it's usually seen as a good thing.
More relevant to this particular question, if people grow their own
MJ, and drop out of the market, it seems to me that would result in
a (slight) decrease in demand at a given price level. This would
mean a shift in the demand curve leftward, which would result in
both a lower price and a lower supply. I guess the Justice Dept
thinks that a lower supply of commercially available MJ is a bad
thing...
All that being said:
1) All this is only relevant if you can somehow interpret
"regulating" interstate commerce to include guaranteeing certain
levels of supply and/or demand, which to me is patently
ridiculous
and
2) I agree with Ruthless: the real question here is going unasked
and unanswered. Would the Supremes (Suprema?) go along with
enforcing local restrictions on, say, blogs, because it affects the
overall market for newspapers?
Yes, let's be clear on this: all this is moot discussion if we
begin with the principle that the state has no right to tell you
what you may smoke. Likewise if we strictly enforce the commerce
clause under it's origional purpose of preventing interstate trade
barriers.
On the other hand, it can be an educational experience to spend
some tome trying to fathom the thought patterns of the SC. Don't do
it while eating pepperoni or you'll have psychosis inducing
nightmares.
On the issue of the supply of cotton supply, price and demand (in that exact order) there are some key parts of the issue being skipped. The process begins with higher profits, then greater prodution, then lower prices, then greater demand. Also, cotton holds a market share of the uber-demand for clothing, bedding and such things. The lower price allows cotton to capture a larger market share by out-competing the prices of things like silk.
Eryk, sorry I signed your name to my post earlier. Not sure how that happened, though I guess because I was replying to you.
I find it incredible, bordering on surrealistically absurd, that
some Justices felt that the present case seemed similar to the
long-ago wheat-growing case, which established the broad reach of
the commerce clause. In the case of wheat, commerce in that
commodity -- albeit highly regulated -- was legal. In the case of
marijuana, commerce in it is ILLEGAL. The argument in the wheat
case was that homegrown wheat would prevent a like amount of wheat
from being sold within the context of interstate commerce. Now, the
justices are seriously considering the argument that homegrown pot
would prevent a like amount of pot from being sold within the
context of interstate commerce. BUT ISN'T THAT THE POINT OF THE
DRUG LAWS, to reduce or eliminate interstate commerce in controlled
substances? So what's the problem? The argument that drugs are
"fungible" and therefore will "inevitably" show up in interstate
commerce (thus INCREASING that illegal commerce) makes a little
more sense, but then you have to ask, which is true? Will homegrown
pot REDUCE or INCREASE interstate commerce? If increase is
guaranteed and inevitable, where are the facts to support that
assertion? If reduction is guaranteed and inevitable, why is the
government worried at all that their job is being done for them,
albeit not in a way they planned?
The key questions, in my opinion:
1. Who owns your body?
2. Which component of our federal system has authority over
medicine, state or federal?
3. If the individual has ultimate decision authority over what does
or does not go into his or her own body, and if states control the
practice of medicine, then what constitutional role actually exists
for the Federal government in the matter of food and drugs? If you
have the right to decide what goes (or doesn't go) into your body,
then by what authority can the government deny you those things (or
force you to use/ingest them)?
3. Can the mere assertion (not the demonstration) of "fungibility"
be sufficient to bring the fungible subject under Federal control
by means of the Interstate Commerce Clause? (The wheat-growing case
provided an answer, but every now and then, we need to re-examine
precedent to see if it still makes sense -- or ever did.)
What is most disturbing to me, apart from the suggestion of
judicial inability to understand basic economics, is the apparent
preoccupation with desired results. With justices speculating --
SPECULATING, mind you -- that 100K Californians or more might avail
themselves of medical marijuana, many on bogus claims of illness,
so as to affect "interstate commerce," the clear signal seems to
be, "our goal here, our key purpose, is to reduce or eliminate use
of this drug." Yet, the goal of the Supreme Court ought to be to
decide whether the federal law or its specific enforcement are
authorized by the Constitution. There are a great many worthy goals
that the Federal government MIGHT undertake, but the actual set of
goals that it is AUTHORIZED to undertake is supposedly defined and
constrained by the Constitution.
Don't get me wrong: I am encouraged that the Justices bother to
consider the good or evil they may do by upholding or striking down
the lower court decision. But if the CSA or its application are
repugnant to the Constitution, the court needs to rule for the
Constitution -- perhaps in a way calculated to do the least harm,
but nevertheless in the full understanding that allowing a
constitutionally repugnant law to stand does even MORE harm.
For anybody interested in the economics of the drug trade, in
the past 2 weeks the Economist has had 2 excellent articles on
drugs.
The latest issue has an article on the drug trade in Britain (see
the "Britain" section). Drug dealers are moving away from the
vertical integration of cartels, where every step of the process is
handled in-house. They are now moving toward horizontal
integration, with each step of production and distribution handled
by different organizations. As in any industry, specialization
increases efficiency.
The Economist concludes that specialization has produced a much
nimbler drug trade, one that the police will never break. An
industry dominated by a few giant cartels might (at least in
theory) be possible to bust. An industry full of agile and abundant
competitors will be impossible to shut down.
The previous week there was an article in their "Asia" section on
the Afghan opium crop. The crop is larger than any in the past
several years. They observe that the resurgent Afghan drug trade is
so strong that only a long, bloody, and costly military effort by
the US will break it (and even that would only displace opium
production to some other country).
They also comment on the economic savvy of the Taliban: They
allowed opium production for a while, building up copious
stockpiles. In 2000 they banned opium production to drive up the
price of their stockpiles.
Maybe an unemployed Taliban warloard would be willing to tutor
Justice Stevens on economics.
It's important not to confuse "demand" with "quantity
demanded".
"Demand" means quantity demanded at a certain price. "Demand goes
down" means that *if the price stays the same*, less quantity is
demanded. Demand is a function of *how much consumers value the
good*.
"Quantity demanded" is the amount consumers actually want to buy at
the actual price. So if the price goes up, *quantity demanded* goes
down, even though *demand* stays the same.
If suppliers are induced to supply less, the price obviously goes
up. That means the quantity demanded will drop. Which makes sense,
since quantity demanded must be exactly the same as quantity
supplied.
So what the justices are trying to say is that if the law clamps
down on suppliers, there will be less marijuana in existence, and
therefore fewer marijuana will be used. Which is self-evident. (The
Supremes should have stopped there instead of trying to pretend
they understood economics.)
Of course, the lower supply will cause the price to go up. Which is
again self-evident.
As for profits, they will go up in money terms. However, according
to economic theory, profit will be "normal" when you take into
account the risk of life imprisonment and the extra expenses
involved in avoiding arrest. That is, suppliers on average will be
properly compensated for the risk they take, but not
overcompensated.
Further, not all suppliers are the same.
Suppliers will be happy with the crackdown if their risk of arrest
is lower than average, and unhappy if their risk is higher than
average. Whose risk of arrest is lower than average? Organized
crime, who pays bribes and has connections. Whose risk is higher
than average? Joe Ordinary who sells out of his basement.
Prohibition simply removes the harmless little guy from the
business, and gives a monopoly on what's left to organized
crime.
Phil
This is sort of on subject. "Who owns your body?"
I just saw this
program on the BBC. It's about New York's ACS, Incarnation
Children's Center, HIV+ children, and secret
drug experiments on these children.
I am shocked. Truly shocked.
"On the other hand, it can be an educational experience to spend
some tome trying to fathom the thought patterns of the SC."
Eryk Boston,
This is why we have Linda Greenhouse of the NYT. Is she a fox or
what? I've lusted after her for years on Washington Week in
Review.
it doesnt really matter what the judges rule, gene splicing will render the drug war useless. cocaine, morphine and thc will be produced in plants other than their native genus. the end of the drug war is inevitable irrespective of what the judges say
Holy shit Ruthless, you've outgeeked the entire group here. I bow to your pocket protector.
"pocket" protector?
If you knew Linda like I know Linda.
(very fastidious)
I wouldn't want that sweet thang gettin' what I got.
Ruthless may have the hots for Linda, but the Chicago
Tribune's Jan Crawford Greenberg on the PBS NewsHour
gets my SCOTUS-monitoring motor running. Lucky man, that
Greenberg.
"Supply creates its own demand" is a paraphrase known as Say's Law,
even if Say never said it quite that way. New products would seem
to "create" their own demand. Entrepreneurs have some idea what
customers might want, if they were ever exposed to it. Sometimes
the new product fills some gap in the market that folks were not
consciously aware that they desired, until they were exposed to it.
I'd expect H&R is rife with "early adapters" who can confess to
gadget-lust for new gizmos that do things they never knew they
wanted until they were launched.
Prohibition, unfortunately, does provide incentives for those who
can develop new chemicals or new delivery systems to evade or
otherwise thwart the "law." Bathtub gin has been mentioned, and I
would like to quote the mortal Sam Kinnison: "Give us back the pot,
and you can have the crack!" It doesn't matter how many
tons of happiness-in-a-pill/joint/vial the DEA, etc. confiscate.
The number of doses matter. That they have to keep rewriting the
laws to cover designer drugs proves that those providing the stuff
will keep working around those trying to stop it.
Nothing above changes the fact that they should just leave adults
who want to get messed up on pot alone, on 9th amendment grounds,
at the least.
Kevin
Supply can certainly create demand. Take for example the telephone. If you are the first person to have a chance to buy one, what would you pay? Nothing: who would you call. If most people have a phone, the your utility in having one is much greater, and therefore demand increases. This could apply to pot, since the utility of being stoned by yourself is pretty low...
It's not exactly _supply_ which is creating demand in the phone
example. It's acceptance of the technology. Basically, demand is
creating demand.
If there are a million betamax players but no one has bought any,
then there won't be lots of betamax tapes available because people
haven't accepted the technology and thereby created the demand.
Demand creates supply, plain and simple. If noone smoked
marijuana nobody would want to supply it. There could be tons and
tons of completely free pot, but if nobody wants the stuff there is
no demand. There can also be tons and tons of demand but very
little going around, and this will simply increase either price or
supply. The government honestly believes that by reducing supply,
all demand will go away. This is possible, but no probable. They
must, in fact, reduce all demand. Problem is, people will always
want drugs and their legal status does not matter. People know
better, they know the government can't catch everybody doing drugs
because (like the supply factor) this would be improbable. Stopping
both supply AND demand is only possible (as I said before)by drug
testing all citizens and people in the US, and killing anyone who
fails the drug test on the spot. No questioned asked. You're shot
in the back of the head in front of your family. Why do you think
there weren't many drug addicts in Nazi Germany? Is it really worth
this? No. And this is just for illegal drugs, there will always be
nicotine addicts, alcoholics, chocolate addicts, television
addicts, people addicted to the hundreds of prescription drugs on
the market, and basically addicts of anything pleasurable. There is
no logical way to win a War on Drugs. All it does it create real
criminals out of people who don't commit real crimes. In the
government's eyes it would be alright to jail anyone listening to
rap music if they deem it to be illegal for arbitrary
reasons.
Full-out legalization, regulated by law like alcohol, is the ONLY
way to stop the drug problems. This must be combined with
fact-based drug education and harsh penalites for people who abuse
the privilege of using the now-legal drugs. This would be fine,
since there wouldn't be many drug-related crimes without a black
market. Kind of like how getting a DWI is much worse than being
caught with an 8-ball of cocaine. People wouldn't shoot up, they'd
drink laudnaum or take diacetylmorphine (Heroin) pills. They'd
drink cocaine wine or elixir, not snort lines off a mirror. If, for
some odd reason, people did want to administer drugs intranasally
or intravaneously there are newer ways than snorting pure powder or
sticking a needle in their arm. Nasal mists containing cocaine or
diamorphine, or use the new "needle-less" syringes that have been
developed. They use gas to shoot a substance into a person's arm.
Snorting and needles are something out of the 19th century, not the
21st. Black markets keep people behind the times.
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