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|11.23.04 @ 11:52AM|#
There should be no investigation and if the camera hadn't been there you wouldn't get one.
You either fight the got dam war or you bring everyone home and say screw it. We can't fight a war like a chick that's a little bit pregnant. We did that in Viet Nam and it cost us 53,000 dead guys with nothing to balance the scales.
|11.23.04 @ 12:02PM|#
How come no one (besides me) brought up the complexity of building useful nuclear weapons when Saddam was reportedly building his WoMD asensal?
|11.23.04 @ 12:15PM|#
I must assume TWC's comment is a bit of trolling...The entire history of warfare revolves around acceptable or "civilized" ways of fighting. To argue there are no restrictions on behavior during warfare is to reduce everyone involved to the state of amoral animals. At which point we should nuke Iraq into a sheet of glowing glass and call it a day. This would guarantee the fastest possible "victory" with the minimum American casualties.
Highway|11.23.04 @ 1:03PM|#
Billy Hunter, the NBA Players Union Leader was going on and on about the Violent Society meme, blaming everything on the fans, vowing to support Artest, O'Neal, and Jackson in their appeal. What sort of appeal is that gonna be?
Union: "We think they shouldn't be suspended that long."
Stern: "Tough, I do. See you next year, Artest. Have fun promoting your album."
|11.23.04 @ 1:04PM|#
Jon, get real. The 'total war' genie has been out of the bottle for some time now.
|11.23.04 @ 1:20PM|#
I guess O' Rielly had an opinion about the Marine videotaped shooting the terrorist?
Is there a link to click that I am not getting?
|11.23.04 @ 2:17PM|#
"What sort of appeal is that gonna be?"
The appeal will probably get sent to an arbitrator, not Stern.
I'm kind of split on this issue. On one hand, I don't think Artest deserved a full season for what clearly was a visceral reaction many others might have had - at the least, it warranted no more time than what was given for Jackson's act of supreme idiocy. On the other hand, if the suspension is upheld, it would be a virtual gift to the Sixers, all but handing them a buyer for Glenn "Lazy Dog" Robinson, $12 million contract and all.
fyodor|11.23.04 @ 2:24PM|#
Yeah, I don't see a link to the story either!
|11.23.04 @ 2:29PM|#
It's reason express, that thinger that Reason deposits in the e-mailboxes of Reason devotees. There's also a link at the top left corner of Hit & Run. This will be on the test.
Highway|11.23.04 @ 4:11PM|#
Eric, all the reports I've read and heard to this point say that the appeal will be heard by Stern and Stern alone. Seems like kind of a weak appeal system, but that's what they've got.
I have to agree that Jackson should have gotten more like what Artest did for steaming up into the stands, but I don't think the whole season is out of line for Artest. I doubt it will deter him from doing anything next time, though. O'Neal's is pretty much on the mark for flying in and throwing that haymaker at the fan on the court. I also think the Pistons guys got about the right amount, even if that 6 games Wallace got is higher than usual for starting a fight on the court. As far as I could tell, all the Pistons stayed on the court in the continuation, tho.
gaius marius|11.23.04 @ 4:36PM|#
The 'total war' genie has been out of the bottle for some time now.
dear. so we're excused from ever behaving decently again under some slight provocation, mr twc? so we've no reason to even attempt to behave as something more than animals, mr richard?
i'm amazed at the speed with which our society has decayed. from the outrage americans displayed over my lai to this... acceptance... it's truly appalling. it gives more credibility to the idea that western society is falling into amorality and chaos.
gaius marius|11.23.04 @ 4:41PM|#
as does, frankly, all that nba crap. not only the fight -- which could conceivably be explained as animal passion run amok -- but the the entire response, the nature of its position as pointed out in express, which is not impassioned but well considered and STILL fundamentally irresponsible and antisocial.
|11.23.04 @ 4:44PM|#
Most sportswriters/commentators on the Artest brawl/riot (with the exception of Bill Simmons on ESPN.com, whose columns on this topic are entertaining!) neglect to consider the fact that ARTEST WENT AFTER THE WRONG GUY! Artest's rationale for his actions would have been mitigated a bit if he was going after the correct fan (although the athlete should never go into the stands), but he was lying on his back on the scorer's table and looking upwards when the cup hit him. He had no idea who threw it! Then, he went to beat the living shit out of some guy in the stands who was hootin' and hollering at the skirmish on the floor, NOT because the fan had just hit Artest with a plastic cup of liquid.
Artest is crazy and dangerous, as this action demonstrated, and he will be (rightly) made poorer through the legal system by the guy who he attacked. He's a talented basketball player without a doubt, but he's clearly not all there, even by lax NBA standards. I've heard him apologize for the incident because kids saw it, because of the commotion it caused, etc., but I've not heard him apologize to the fan that he started to beat up. I guess he'll have enough opportunity to do that in court.
|11.23.04 @ 4:51PM|#
"Eric, all the reports I've read and heard to this point say that the appeal will be heard by Stern and Stern alone."
Hmm, after going through a couple of articles today, it looks like you're right. I figured that since there was arbitration in the Spreewell case, it would apply here.
"I don't think the whole season is out of line for Artest"
For me, the bottom line is that if you took 100 guys off the street and put them in Artest's position, I suspect that a large number of them would've also responded to an unprovoked beer in the face by going into the stands, even in an NBA setting. A "heat of passion" defense definitely has some merit here. This doesn't excuse Artest's behavior entirely, particularly since he went after the wrong idiot, but it makes a compelling argument for a 20-30 game suspension instead of a full season.
Jackson, on the other hand...well only God knows what his neurons were up to at the time.
|11.23.04 @ 5:57PM|#
"i'm amazed at the speed with which our society has decayed. from the outrage americans displayed over my lai to this"
So a few egomaniacal millionaries brawling with a few dozen inebriated suburbanites is comparable to My Lai? What's next, comparing the Tyson-Holyfield fight to Dresden?
"... acceptance... it's truly appalling."
You're going to have to point me to the articles where ESPN, CNNSI, and the New York Times "accepted" the incident. I have to admit, however, that I did laugh out loud the first time I saw the video clip.
"it gives more credibility to the idea that western society is falling into amorality and chaos."
I suggest reading up on Ty Cobb's 1912 duel with a cripple. Or Babe Ruth's chase after a heckler in 1922. What happened in Auburn Hills has plenty of prior precedent. I like Barzun, but like Spengler - another smart civilizational theorist - he's best taken in moderate doses. ODing on him is almost as dangerous as doing so with Ayn Rand.
|11.23.04 @ 6:27PM|#
Eric II -- You'll have to excuse Gaius; he's just giving this board its daily helping of "collapse of Western Civ./hyper-individualistic, decadent America/blah, blah, blah". You'll get used to it. I think someone flipped him the bird once or said something rude to him on the street or something.
|11.23.04 @ 6:44PM|#
One issue many posters are leaving out is that this is not Artest's first major infraction.
First the shove, Artest did the correct thing and backed off. Yet, what is up with laying on the officiating table? That alone is worth a two or three game suspension for it shows a complete lack of respect for either the game or the officials.
I would not tolerate that type of behavior from the 8th graders I taught, and would tolerate it even less from the 12th graders I teach now. Artest was essentially pouting like the spoiled brat he is.
Beer to the face. Obviously this was completely uncalled for, yet Artest could have had the fan arrested for assault, now he will end up paying several fans hundreds of thousands of dollars to solve the lawsuits. (This does not even address the fact that he socked the WRONG fan.)
To the poster who stated that if you pulled a hundred guys at random off the street and many would act the same way. Perhaps true, but take a hundred family men who have wives, kids, and homes to protect and put them in the same situation and I would argue that fewer than one in ten would charge into the stands. Why? Because, mature men with families, careers, and homes have things more important to protect. For a brat like Artest, his childish anticts have never before put those things he values at risk. His previous on court assaults and fights resulted in little more than a traffic ticket. Annoying, occasionally slightly expensive but it never threatened his livelyhood.
Perhaps now that Artest will pay a truly significant fine, and have his income severely cut for a long period of time he will learn to think before he acts.
Real manhood means understanding where your priorities lie, and doing what is necessary to protect them. Thus, when I am at work, and 17 year old who desperately needs an ass kicking provokes me, I do the responsible thing. I act like a man and deal with the problem appropriately whether that be suspending the student, expelling the student, or ignoring the student. Either way, it is the understanding of what you have to lose, that promotes true self control.
Regards
Joe Dokes
raymond|11.24.04 @ 12:28AM|#
it gives more credibility to the idea that western society is falling into amorality and chaos.
Maybe "western society" is too broad a term.
Let's limit our mourning to countries whose leaders declare they will "do whatever it takes".
btw. On this very site you can find a lot of pre-pro-o'reilly sentiment.
|11.24.04 @ 9:54AM|#
Yeah, Raymond, it's always because of the war, and the death penalty.
Why, then, does violence and racism at American sporting events not even come close to the violence and racism of euro soccer hooliganism?
|11.24.04 @ 11:12AM|#
'"it gives more credibility to the idea that western society is falling into amorality and chaos."
I suggest reading up on Ty Cobb's 1912 duel with a cripple.'
You could also point out that basketball players are still called "cagers" since before the 20's games had to be played with a cage around the court to keep the fans and players from killing each other. The fans still would manage to stick hat pins and lit cigars through the mesh however, so they couldn't be entirely stopped from displaying their civility.
gaius, you always remind me of Moe Sizlak:
"You know what the breakdown of I blame this on? Society."
Artest, a man with a real temper, had just been embarrased by a much larger man, Ben Wallace, shoving him across the court. As he lay on the table with his bruised ego, a cup hit him in the chest, and he lost it. If that is a portent of the end of the West, it was pretty fragile to begin with.
raymond|11.24.04 @ 12:30PM|#
I thought from the outrage americans displayed over my lai to this... acceptance... it's truly appalling was about o'reilly's defence of the shooting of the wounded Iraqi prisoner, not about some basketball brouhaha.
My response to it certainly didn't have anything to do with sports.
|11.24.04 @ 12:39PM|#
Regarding the Marine who shot the "wounded insurgent":
The Laws of War require our soldiers to treat captives humananely, but it is also a violation of those laws to fly a flag of truce, then open fire, boobytrap the dead and wounded, and fight without wearing a uniform or a distinguishing sign, so that soldiers can distinguish civilians from combatants. The jihadis have been reported as using some of these outlawed tricks. I will not prejudge whether the trooper in question acted fairly or not until the investigation makes clear whether the wrongdoing was all on our side or not. The military hold grand jury-like procedures, in this case I believe it would be an Article 32 hearing, to decide if charges should proceed to a court-martial. If the man can be cleared, it will happen through that process.
Kevin
|11.24.04 @ 6:11PM|#
The one thing I don't like about this whole Artest thing is that everyone seems willing to suspend for everything BUT what happened in the arena that night. If you wish to suspend him for his actions, fine. But don't go after him because he did something silly like ask for time off to promote an album or because he's gotten technicals in the past. The previous precedent for a situation like this was set in 1995, when Vernon Maxwell got suspended 10 games for going into the stands and punching out a heckler WHO DID NOT PHYSICALLY ATTACK HIM. If you want to somehow argue that Artest's actions are somehow worst than the above, go on right ahead. Just don't expect me to give them much credence.
Also to Joe-Dokes, you seem to know a lot more about what was going on in the situation than anyone else. Granted, he was wrong for going after the wrong fan. However, if you look closely at the footage, he was pushed into the guy by the guy who threw the cup in the first place. Also, you seem to have this magical insight into John Green's mind that no one seems to have. Can you help me out? Can you tell me that he did not actually wish to do further harm to Artest?
Now, I agree with the suspension in general. After all, throwing a punch at a game is a big no-no, and it's pretty much established precedent. However, suspending someone just because you don't particularly care for them is unjust and extremely capricious. Imagine if our justice system were run like that. Wait a sec. If you look at the drug war...