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Jonathan Rauch assesses the Vietnam/Iraq blind taste test.
|9.15.04 @ 10:51AM|#
It is no accident that byzantine is now an adjective instead of a place and comes right out of the mideast. If any infidel thinks they're going in there and straighten things out they better pack a lunch that will last at least a hundred years - probably more.
|9.15.04 @ 11:01AM|#
"Only if the people of the country have a government that is
worth supporting..."
Was there ever a government worth supporting?
(Anarchist speaking.)
|9.15.04 @ 11:48AM|#
Iraq now is Vietnam 1966. OK.
Good thing we "stayed the course" for a few more years.
|9.15.04 @ 12:08PM|#
Anyone want to venture a guess as to the conversion factor of US
deaths before we declare victory and get out?
I mean is it progress that the figure this time might be closer to
two thousand versus 58 something thousand?
If I'm right, how much credit should be given to Homer Simpson and
his "D'oh"?
|9.15.04 @ 12:13PM|#
Ruthless,
I believe the figure for September 11 dead is about 2800. It is
commonly referred to as almost 3000. So I think the 3000 milestone
will the significant one. If we "stay the course," even the Nixons
and Kissingers will start to go wobbly at 3000.
|9.15.04 @ 12:22PM|#
If elected, how will President Kerry ask somebody to be the last man to die for a mistake?
|9.15.04 @ 12:40PM|#
Was there ever a government worth supporting?
Was there ever anything worth supporting? Not concept but
thing.
|9.15.04 @ 12:46PM|#
Iraq now is Vietnam 1966. OK.
Or maybe it's Little Rock, 1957. OK? Or maybe it's all places at
all times. Or no other place at any other time.
Like all and like none, now and ever and never. That should cover
the bases.
|9.15.04 @ 1:15PM|#
I like to compare Iraq to the war on drugs and insurgents are
the drug dealers. For each one you take out, there are several more
to replace him and there seems to be plenty of civilian demand
(support) to keep them coming. And the harder America pushes, the
more futile it seems to be. I could write more detailed
comparisons, but I am not a blogger, just a responder!
Unlike the war on drugs, we cannot legalize insurgency and be rid
of it, we have to continue the fight.
I think Bush wrote a check our asses can't cash and Kerry probably
won't be able to convince the bank to take it, either. I hope to be
proven wrong before we hit the 30 year mark with the war in
Iraq.
|9.15.04 @ 1:48PM|#
joe,
... and would it be progress, if, in future wars, we factor in the
life of a foreigner at, say, three fifths that of a US soldier?
Cletus Nelson|9.15.04 @ 1:49PM|#
Now that we've learned that the majority of Iraqi men own AK-47s
and other lethal military hardware, I'm still wondering why the
HELL these people couldn't "liberate" themselves?
That's why the cold war/WWII analogies fall completely flat.
Let's be honest, these people weren't systematically stripped of
their arms ala Hitler/Stalin, they were QUITE capable of mounting
an effective anti-Saddam insurgency decades ago.
Unfortunately that might have threatened someone's state aid check
or even WORSE, a nephew's no-show job on the Baghdad railway.
To paraphrase Burke, sometimes people really do forge their own
chains...
Oh and wait for the punchline when MILLIONS of "liberated" (but
embittered) Iraqi "political prisoners" start streaming into the US
to bleed Uncle Sap...
May they all move in next to Glenn Reynolds.
|9.15.04 @ 1:54PM|#
I'm not happy with the way the occupation is going, but...
"Let's be honest, these people weren't systematically stripped of
their arms ala Hitler/Stalin, they were QUITE capable of mounting
an effective anti-Saddam insurgency decades ago."
Didn't a lot of them try in '91? It didn't end well.
|9.15.04 @ 3:16PM|#
Rauch writes, "If the United States had found weapons of
mass destruction, or if we had invaded with broad support and
legitimacy in the world's eyes, or if we had briskly pacified the
country, we would be in much better shape today."
The first two conditions seem to have no bearing on internal Iraqi
politics and the legitimacy of any new government, while the third
implies the stability of acknowledged authority.
If UN troops had discovered Saddam's WMD stockpile, there would
still be no legitimate government in Iraq, simply more foreign
involvement there. Any imposed solution is fatally flawed. But we
could feel justified and vindicated and righteous as our troops die
alongside French and Germans. In better shape emotionally, not
militarily or politically.
|9.15.04 @ 3:24PM|#
What are you picking on me for, Ruthless? You asked about the
public's tipping point, and guessed where it would be. I don't
think the number of ferrners killed will play much of a role in the
public's decision, only the number of Americans.
I agree that that sucks, but don't shoot the messenger.
|9.15.04 @ 3:34PM|#
joe, I'm not shootin', and I think that's the point both of us
are tryin' to make here:
NO MORE SHOOTIN'!
Cletus Nelson|9.15.04 @ 3:42PM|#
"Didn't a lot of them try in '91? It didn't end well..."
A smattering of Chalabi-backed Shias and the Kurds, who have my
utmost respect, were able to launch a widespread revolt.
The rest were collecting their checks...
|9.15.04 @ 3:54PM|#
Cletus-
If the Iraqi people are indeed basket cases who are incapable of
appreciating freedom, do you think this war of liberation was a bad
idea?
(Note that I'm not agreeing with Cletus, simply asking if his
stated opinions lead him to certain conclusions.)
|9.15.04 @ 4:07PM|#
"Now that we've learned that the majority of Iraqi men own
AK-47s and other lethal military hardware, I'm still wondering why
the HELL these people couldn't "liberate" themselves?
That's why the cold war/WWII analogies fall completely flat."
Why? Where was the evidence that Germany and Japan wished to revolt
against their governments but were unable?
Hell where was the evidence that the majority of France wanted
"liberating" for that matter?
I agree that it doesn't fit well, but not because of the Iraqis'
ability for independent insurgence.
|9.15.04 @ 4:35PM|#
throreau, the consistency with which the "liberators" let their
mask slip should be enough for people to recognize their "universal
democracy" talk for the pretext that it is.
I just about got whiplash the week the merceneries were lynched in
Faluja. From "We're going to liberate our fellow human beings." to
"We're going to kill every single one of those fuckers!" and back
to "We're going to liberate our fellow human beings." in about
three days.
|9.15.04 @ 4:41PM|#
"A smattering of Chalabi-backed Shias and the Kurds, who have my
utmost respect, were able to launch a widespread revolt."
Which resulted in as many as 100,000 deaths, and at least
60-70,000. Even with Saddam's brutality, those are pretty
significant numbers for a country the size of Iraq.
Also, do you have any evidence that the Shia uprising was purely
instigated by Iraqi exiles? The little that I've read on the
subject suggested that in many Shia towns, it was a popular
revolt.
|9.15.04 @ 5:44PM|#
Here's an url to a chrono of our Kurdish involvement over the
last 100 years or so.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/saddam/kurds/cron.html
Key graf:
"After Iraq's defeat in Kuwait, Shias in Southern Iraq launch a
popular uprising against the Baghdad regime. Following the Shias'
lead, the Kurds in the North also revolt. Within two weeks, 15 of
Iraq's 18 provinces are free of government control. However, once
it is clear that the U.S. will not support the rebellion, Saddam's
forces crush the revolt throughout Iraq. Hundreds of thousands of
Kurds flee into the mountains. In response to humanitarian pleas,
U.S. troops move into Northern Iraq in "Operation Provide Comfort".
No-fly zones are established over Kurdistan."
It's been said that US soldiers watched through binoculars while
the Shia and Kurds were slaughtered.
Cletus Nelson|9.15.04 @ 6:02PM|#
Thoreau:
"If the Iraqi people are indeed basket cases who are incapable of
appreciating freedom, do you think this war of liberation was a bad
idea?"
I think any action that eliminates political gangsterism shows good
intentions and will obviously benefit many people.
Unfortunately, the road to hell...
|9.15.04 @ 7:36PM|#
Unfortunately, the road to hell...
...leads to the birth of humanity.
-Anonomous
Cletus Nelson|9.15.04 @ 8:22PM|#
"...leads to the birth of humanity."
Call me skeptical but I highly doubt future generations of Iraqi's
will look at those Abu Gharib photos and rejoice in their newfound
dignity.
|9.16.04 @ 11:11AM|#
According to below, the US is undercounting US "body count,"
just as it overcounted VN body count:
"The Pentagon has reported 1,019 dead and 7,245 wounded from
Iraq.
The military has evacuated 16,765 individual service members from
Iraq and Afghanistan for injuries and ailments not directly related
to combat, according to the U.S. Transportation Command, which is
responsible for the medical evacuations. Most are from Operation
Iraqi Freedom."
Gabo, Naum|9.26.04 @ 1:10PM|#
Gabo, Naum
http://www.onlineshop.us.com/cat_books_1228/Books_Arts_Photography_Art_Sculpture_Sculptors_A_Z_Gabo_Naum.php
Gaudier-Brzeska, Henri
http://www.onlineshop.us.com/cat_books_1232/Books_Arts_Photography_Art_Sculpture_Sculptors_A_Z_Gaudier_Brzeska_Henri.php
Giacometti, Alberto
http://www.onlineshop.us.com/cat_books_1238/Books_Arts_Photography_Art_Sculpture_Sculptors_A_Z_Giacometti_Alberto.php
Giambologna
http://www.onlineshop.us.com/cat_books_1239/Books_Arts_Photography_Art_Sculpture_Sculptors_A_Z_Giambologna.php
Graves, Nancy
http://www.onlineshop.us.com/cat_books_1249/Books_Arts_Photography_Art_Sculpture_Sculptors_A_Z_Graves_Nancy.php
Hepworth, Barbara
http://www.onlineshop.us.com/cat_books_1257/Books_Arts_Photography_Art_Sculpture_Sculptors_A_Z_Hepworth_Barbara.php
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