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|6.1.04 @ 1:08AM|#

Well, if there were ever an expert on patronizing behavior, you're it, joe.

Phil|6.1.04 @ 1:40AM|#

Swain's message was made all the more powerful by her personal story as one of 12 children in a poor rural home in Virginia. None of her siblings finished high school. "I was by no means the smartest," said Swain. "By the grace of God, I was the one who managed to escape."

I guess because she decided not to stay poor and uneducated, she doesn't "share the experiences" of the urban poor and rural poor now.

Sometimes, when the problems within a culture become endemic, change does have to come from or be guided by people outside of it. I'm not sure how that's at all controversial.

Phil|6.1.04 @ 1:41AM|#

Swain's message was made all the more powerful by her personal story as one of 12 children in a poor rural home in Virginia. None of her siblings finished high school. "I was by no means the smartest," said Swain. "By the grace of God, I was the one who managed to escape."

I guess because she decided not to stay poor and uneducated, she doesn't "share the experiences" of the urban poor and rural poor now.

Sometimes, when the problems within a culture become endemic, change does have to come from or be guided by people outside of it. I'm not sure how that's at all controversial.

|6.1.04 @ 1:53AM|#

Joe,

An unexpected consequence of integration is that poor but hard working and responsible poeple can get the hell out of their crappy neighborhoods as fats as they can. So there are many neighborhoods in NYC where there are no examples of normal hardwroking folk, as Cosby would put it.

And middle class might be a income class, but it'as more importantly a state of mind. My pop was a teamster and punched a clock every day, but we were middle class and were too good for welfare or food stamps!

|6.1.04 @ 2:31AM|#

Very telling, Phil, that you consider "the experiences of the urban and rural poor' to be defined entirely as been poor and uneducated.

Native NY,

I'm well aware of the phenomenon you describe, and it's a problem. However, the dynamic is not as absolute as your post suggests. Many "crappy" urban neighborhoods contain quite a few neat, attractive homes populated by hardworking, responsible people. Every day, I see employed people with options living in "crappy" neighborhoods who haven't sold out and fled, but have chosen to stay and fight for the communities they grew up in. An important distinction needs to be drawn between traditional neighborhoods, which usually succeed in keeping at least a portion of their more successful residents, and "the projects," which people with any chance to leave flee as soon as they can.

If staying in a troubled urban neighborhood, when you have the chance to flee to the suburbs, seems baffling and pointless to you, you probably don't have anything useful to say about the problems faced by the people in those neighborhoods.

|6.1.04 @ 3:07AM|#

I wonder if idiotic grammatical errors in conjugating the verb "to be" undermine my credibility when discussing educational issues?

Naaahhhhhh.

Phil|6.1.04 @ 3:38AM|#

Very telling, Phil, that you consider "the experiences of the urban and rural poor' to be defined entirely as been poor and uneducated.

Yes, how I extrapolated those two things particularly from a conference on education and school performance shall forever remain a mystery.

Phil|6.1.04 @ 3:39AM|#

Very telling, Phil, that you consider "the experiences of the urban and rural poor' to be defined entirely as been poor and uneducated.

Yes, how I extrapolated those two things particularly from a conference on education and school performance shall forever remain a mystery.

Since you're playing the role of Carnak today, can you please list whichever other "experiences" you're so certain Ms. Swain "doesn't share?" Since you seem to be in a position to know, and all?

Phil|6.1.04 @ 3:53AM|#

Very telling, Phil, that you consider "the experiences of the urban and rural poor' to be defined entirely as been poor and uneducated.

I do? "Entirely?" Who elected you Kreskin, asshole?

Let's see . . . a symposium on race, education and poverty, and I choose poverty and education as two relevant experiences that Ms. Swain shared with the people being discussed . . . what a fuckin' mystery! Can't be because those are relevant criteria; no, I must have a nefarious reason for bringing it up.

Since you're playing the part of mind reader, and seem to have some insight into Ms. Swain's motivations, can you let us know what other relevant experiences she does not share or has not shared with the groups whose well-being is on the table? Since you're obviously in a position to know, I figure you can set us straight.

How's that Ed Begley car workin' for ya?

Phil|6.1.04 @ 4:00AM|#

Very telling, Phil, that you consider "the experiences of the urban and rural poor' to be defined entirely as been poor and uneducated.

I do? "Entirely?" Who elected you Kreskin, asshole?

Let's see . . . a symposium on race, education and poverty, and I choose poverty and education as two relevant experiences that Ms. Swain shared with the people being discussed . . . what a fuckin' mystery! Can't be because those are relevant criteria; no, I must have a nefarious reason for bringing it up.

Since you're playing the part of mind reader, and seem to have some insight into Ms. Swain's motivations, can you let us know what other relevant experiences she does not share or has not shared with the groups whose well-being is on the table? Since you're obviously in a position to know, I figure you can set us straight.

How's that Ed Begley car workin' for ya?

Phil|6.1.04 @ 4:09AM|#

Very telling, Phil, that you consider "the experiences of the urban and rural poor' to be defined entirely as been poor and uneducated.

I do? "Entirely?" Who elected you Kreskin, asshole?

Let's see . . . a symposium on race, education and poverty, and I choose poverty and education as two relevant experiences that Ms. Swain shared with the people being discussed . . . what a fuckin' mystery! Can't be because those are relevant criteria; no, I must have a nefarious reason for bringing it up.

Since you're playing the part of mind reader, and seem to have some insight into Ms. Swain's motivations, can you let us know what other relevant experiences she does not share or has not shared with the groups whose well-being is on the table? Since you're obviously in a position to know, I figure you can set us straight.

How's that Ed Begley car workin' for ya?

|6.1.04 @ 4:20AM|#

"Every day, I see employed people with options living in "crappy" neighborhoods who haven't sold out and fled, but have chosen to stay and fight for the communities they grew up in."

I choose to leave urban environment = I sell out? How dismissive of choice is that?

|6.1.04 @ 4:22AM|#

I walk, mostly. Good for the calves. And the brain.

As for my purported psychic powers, here's my secret: after applying eye of newt and wing of bat to my third eye, and use the cut and past functions on my mouse, like so: "I guess because she decided not to stay poor and uneducated, she doesn't "share the experiences" of the urban poor and rural poor now."

You only need to hit the post button once.

|6.1.04 @ 4:22AM|#

I like the way Phil's first 3 attempted reposts become angrier and angrier the more he mulls what joe has said. The first benefit I've seen to the broken comments posting system.

|6.1.04 @ 4:31AM|#

Ahh, the working class. Who are they again? Is that the UAW worker who makes easily as much as I do with a fraction of the educational investment?

These are statistical arguments. Of course there are hard working poor people who value education. The question is whether there is a statistically significant portion of poor urban america that views education as a sell out or unimportant and that has uninvolved parents?

|6.1.04 @ 4:34AM|#

JL, I was actually using "sell out" in its original, non-judgemental sense; to indicate that they're not just transferring a piece of property, but by doing so termininating their interest in an enterprise (the neighborhood). Sell, and get out.

Though I can see how my statement could be interpretted either way.

|6.1.04 @ 4:52AM|#

Jason Ligon, your first paragraph is a pathetic attempt to play dumb. You know damn well what the topic under discussion is, and I'm not interesting in conforming my language to your rightist PC diktats.

Oh, and yes, there is, though the attempts by the ruling class (ha!) to deny their existence, so as to justify paternalistic cultural interventions and undercut their communities' self-determination, does serve to undercut their visibility and ability to command respect. When society defines everyone who lives in your neighborhood as deviant and inferior, why should the guy who lives down the street be looked at as a figure of respect?

|6.1.04 @ 5:18AM|#

If inner cities were thriving, one would be correct in citing inner city culture as worthy of emulation. While this may offend Joe, one of the major problems for inner city America is cultural. This is not to criticize individuals who may work quite hard. In any culture, one can find examples of worthy behavior. I expect you can find individual's who support equal rights for women in the traditional Muslim cultures of the Middle East. Individual behavior, however, can be different than cultural norms.

Liberals often make the mistake of thinking all cultures are equally valuable. This is poor thinking. A culture that supports equal rights for individuals without respect to gender or race is superior to a culture that does not. A culture that tolerates individual religious practices is superior to a culture that does not. And to make the point of the author, a culture that celebrates work, discipline and personal responsibility is superior to one that does not.

We know culture influences individual behavior. Yes, one can find examples of responsible fathers in the inner city. One can also find a striking number of men who father multiple children and support none. In my opinion, the latter phenomena is due in part to a culture where the absentee father is the norm.

To anticipate Joe's argument, this is not to say the problem of "deadbeat dads" is limited to the inner city. It is, however, endemic in the inner city, as other behaviors like dropping out of school.

What I find ironic is that acquaintances of mine who have escaped inner city culture are usually the harshest critics. The "used to be" poor understand that poverty is not simply a function of oppression by The Man. No, that idea is kept alive mostly by starry eyed liberals who have never missed a meal... present company excluded, of course.

|6.1.04 @ 5:28AM|#

I have some white trash cousins whose attitudes are every bit as much of a problem as any attitudes attributed (rightly or wrongly) to inner-city culture. Some of these cousins have poor parents who did a horrible job of (not) raising their kids, and others have well-to-do parents who did a horrible job of (not) raising their kids. All of these cousins are losers, but the ones with wealthier parents are able to sponge off their parents and hence have more comfortable loser existences.

Meanwhile, I have a schizophrenic relative who got treated and now works 2 jobs while enjoying a happy marriage. Attitude is everything. The mentally ill relative had help from family but first and foremost has determination to live a normal life despite her illness.

If it weren't for the fact that she doesn't want any attention (attention would mean that her embarassing condition would be revealed) her story would make a great inspirational movie.

|6.1.04 @ 6:05AM|#

Back when I was teaching, I actually heard black students say that doing homework and talking like an educated person was something they wouldn't do, because that was "acting white."

I was horrified. "You think that being educated and successful is something only white people do?" I said. "Back where I grew up down South I knew LOTS of guys who thought that way, but they all wore white sheets and burned crosses on weekends."

If my life were an inspirational movie about a Teacher Who Cares Enough To Make a Difference, that would have been a real epiphany for those dumb bunnies. But no such luck.

|6.1.04 @ 6:20AM|#

My loser cousins would probably say to your black former students "Hey, we don't study or speak standard English either!"

Except it would probably come out as "Hey, we don't do no studying or speak all educated too!"

Incidentally, my cousins have caused me to abandon my anti-violence stance. I now whole-heartedly support mandatory castration for any man who has kids that he can't support, starting with my loser cousin who's a convicted sex offender with 5 or 6 kids by as many women. I have a dull rusty knife set aside for his "surgery." And I have another loser cousin who got himself diagnosed mentally ill to receive disability payments. (Trust me, he's not mentally ill.) Turns out that he has a kid and another one on the way (different girls). I'll have to bring my dull rusty knife the next time I see him.

And then there's my cousin with 3 kids by as many men, one of whom is in prison for murder (or was, the last we heard). Since female reproductive organs are internal rather than external it will be more difficult to do her surgery, but I'm sure I can find a way.

But Murphy's Law says that if I did this I'd be one of the few people in my family actually convicted of a crime. So I'll leave my dull rusty knife at home the next time I see my cousins.

Phil|6.1.04 @ 6:27AM|#

Terrific, joe -- you've mastered Ctrl-C and Ctrl-V. Now let's talk about the word "entirely," as opposed to the phrase "relevant to the topic at hand."

You can get the report on Ms. Swain to me in the morning if you're busy tonight. Otherwise I'll assume that you are, in fact, talking out of your ass, and don't actually know what experiences she or any other potential educational reformers share with the urban and rural poor.

|6.1.04 @ 6:53AM|#

Here is a serious question for Joe and like-minded people: did I "sell out" by leaving the white-trash part of the South in favor of an area where I could read a book in public without having people say, "Aw, looka the goddam Communist!" Since I was raised in an area whose values I hate, does that mean I have an obligation to stay there until it becomes the kind of place I'd like to be? Likewise, do inner-city parents who 'make good' have an obligation to continue raising their kids in an area where the kids might get killed by a stray bullet?

Sounds like the medieval idea of keeping everyone in their place: You were born a peasant, therefore God WANTS you to be a peasant. If God wanted you to have an education He would have had you born to educated parents. Shut up and be content with your lot in life.

If God WANTS me to be curler-wearing white trash, that is reason number 666 as to why I am now an atheist.

|6.1.04 @ 7:11AM|#

Alright so not everybody starts out at the same socio economic level. However, what seperates the poor from the rest of us is the decisions they make. Some decisions might not have the severe consiquences of others, but there are certain show stoppers that will cause a person to remain poor. Pregnancy and Crime being the two at the top of the list. Basically poor people fail to recognize the mistakes of others and then don't learn from them. This is fine with me, in a meritocracy there need to be losers at the bottom to do the leg work. If hispanics and blacks have cultural issues that prevent them from making it on the plane as the rest of us thats too bad...

By the way I came from a family with

|6.1.04 @ 7:32AM|#

I volunteer at a homeless shelter for parents and children. The rules are fairly strict, and as a result the shelter has a better track record (measured by the percentage of residents finding jobs and housing) than a lot of shelters.

As much as I enjoy volunteering at the shelter, it's actually made me less sympathetic to homeless people. You'd be amazed at what some people will do to circumvent simple rules like "everybody must do chores" or "everybody must watch their kids" or "everybody must either have a job or search for a job." I enjoy helping the people who are willing to do whatever it takes to improve their situations, but I have zero sympathy for the rest.

Some might say I'm heartless, I'd just like to know how much money they've given to charity lately, or how many hours they've spent making lunches at a homeless shelter and helping people make resumes. Interestingly, the longer the staff and volunteers have been there, the less bleeding-heart they are. I realize that not all poor people are homeless, but my point is that there are ways out of even the worst problems for those who are willing to make the effort. That isn't just some jingo I picked up from a conservative columnist or feel-good movie, it's something I've seen in my own family and my volunteer work.

|6.1.04 @ 8:10AM|#

Thoreau-
Though I never volunteered at a shelter I can sort of relate. In college I worked for awhile at a bar, and I remember this one woman with three little kids who worked there under-the-table for tips. She had free rent, free utilities, food stamps and a government stipend IN ADDITION to the secret money she made as tips, and one day I remember her complaining because food stamps didn't cover soap--she was actually expected to PAY for it HERSELF!

Which is not to say I don't support food stamps and other programs; I've just seen that for every one person who is unjustly poor there are about five who deserve to be thus.

|6.1.04 @ 8:16AM|#

You shut your mouth!
How can you say I go about things the wrong way?
I am human and I love to be subsidized-just like everybody else!

|6.1.04 @ 12:37PM|#

Is the identification of "discipline" and "responsibility" as "middle class values" Young's handiwork, or the Thernstrom's? Either way, it is a bigoted, condescending, self-congratulating slur against working class and poor people, who bust their asses and punch clocks (and get punished for violations like minor tardiness) a lot more than the middle class professionals I know.

'Swain identified a number of cultural factors that may hold black students back, including "dysfunctional abusive homes," "lack of parental involvement in the schools," and "negative peer pressure about learning and about high achievement as evidence of one's 'acting white.'" Better schools may provide some solutions, Swain said, but there must also be cultural change, and "middle-class minorities must take a leadership role in this area."'

Clearly, the middle class must take the leadership role. Because there aren't any working class role models of good homes, involved parents, and prioritizing education. Obviously, such role models can only be found outside the poor urban communities themselves. Which is for the best, because people tend to listen the most closely to people who don't share their experiences.

Patronizing indeed.

|6.2.04 @ 9:10AM|#

And where did Joe go?

|6.2.04 @ 10:55AM|#

Jennifer, you too seem to have misread my use of the term "sell out." I did not mean in the "he's a sellout" sense, but in the traditional sense of selling out one's interest in an enterprise. But I do consider it more noble to stay and fight for one's community than to turn tail when the going gets tough.

Jose, there is far more to "inner city culture" than the sensationalistic stories you see on the news. It is wrong to lump the variety of experiences and outlooks therein under a single rubric. Anyway, I'm not saying that inner city success stories are better role models for inner city kids because they're better than suburbanites, but because they will have more credibility, be better able to relate directly to them, and avoid the paternalistic appearance of outsiders swooping in to save people who can't do it on their own. And no one here has suggested that there are not cultural elements to the problems of those neighborhoods. This is a discussion about how best to address them.

Jennifer, I dispute your 5:1 ratio. There are large numbers of responsible poor people who, because they live responsibly, don't appear on your radar. They keep themselves neat, go to their jobs, and don't make trouble, but they still have difficulty paying the rent and making the paycheck cover 7 days worth of meals for the kids.

|6.2.04 @ 12:48PM|#

Rural southern culture has its own set of problems. The issue here is not one's personal experiences, though everyone on this forum seems to have anecdotes aplenty. It is the influence of culture on individual behavior. It is wrongheaded to say race affects academic achievement. The real culprit in academic underachievement is culture. It is also a major factor in poverty and many other social ills. One failure (among many) of modern liberalism is the inability to understand that money does not change culture... the antics of Anna Nicole Smith come to mind for some reason. I think it unlikely that a "victim" mentality or sense of entitlement would be likely to promote positive cultural change.

It is possible for culture to change. The culture of early America tolerated slavery and denied any meaningful rights to women. Fortunately, the American culture changed. The debate on "race" in America is a fool's errand. The real debate should be about culture; what values should a culture possess and what values should it discard.

|6.3.04 @ 7:51AM|#

I want to know who gets to play Jennifer in the movies. Michelle Pfeiffer already did Dangerous Minds. Are we talking Jennifer Connelly, or maybe Sissy Spacek?

Kevrob

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Phil|6.1.04 @ 1:40AM|#

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Phil|6.1.04 @ 3:39AM|#

Phil|6.1.04 @ 3:53AM|#

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