The Family Man as Scab

Are men really going on strike?

(Page 2 of 2)

There's also a bit of academic tedium, when Kaufman carefully asserts the obvious: "When both spouses work, spending quality time as a couple becomes even more difficult." Or when she equivocates into meaninglessness: "Sociologist Patricia Voydanoff argues that multiple work and family roles may lead to either negative or positive consequences."

It's unlikely Kaufman's sample size is large enough to tell us much if anything about national trends, but it is an at times fascinating qualitative study. Her policy prescriptions—capped workweeks, paid family leave—seem tacked on. The real value is in the portraits she's built.

The value in Smith's book is one that you can often find in online commentary: If you let someone rant enough, he'll eventually have sufficient rope to hang himself. That's what happens when the author talks to "Vox Day," who runs a video game blog. (This is in a subchapter called "What Gamers Are Saying About Marriage.") Smith quotes Day at length, presumably because he's sympathetic to her thesis: "The 'strike' theory is generally correct, I think. The problem is that games and porn are entertaining, inexpensive, easily accessible, and reliable. Women can be entertaining, but they're expensive, inaccessible for most men, and from the male perspective shockingly unreliable." Dear women, if you could be more like Bioshock Infinite, that would be awesome, kthxbai.

On behalf of myself and my fellow scabs, let me say to the strikers: Good riddance.

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  • SugarFree||

    Huh. You remove the incentives for people to do something and they no longer want to participate. Imagine that.

  • SugarFree||

    Cut myself off...

    The argument presented to counter it amounts to "nuh-uh" and sour grapes projection.

    It sounds like the war boners when they rock back and forth in the corner denying America's action have any effect on people who decide to oppose us.

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    I agree. If men are opting out in the face of bad incentives, why is Mr. Stockman's response basically, 'y'all are weak adolescent pussies! Suck it up and shoulder more of the burden!"?

  • ||

    Because it provides him with the opportunity of displaying his evolved tail feathers?

  • Raven Nation||

    Hmm, I thought what he was saying was that Smith's conclusions were meaningless since the data they were based on was virtually non-existent.

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    U.S. Marriage rates are at all-time low. That's really the only data you need to then go forth and ask, "Why?"

    What data are you looking for, polls from Gallup about why men aren't marrying? That's not realistic.

  • Raven Nation||

    Agree. I just didn't think he was arguing against incentives just that Smith hadn't established that lack of incentives was the issue.

  • Ketogenic Paleo||

    Helen Smith is light on the research... just read the classic book of the men's rights movement, Warren Farrell's The Myth of Male Power for more solid facts.

  • cavalier973||

    Why aren't men marrying? Because women give it up without requiring any sort of commitment. Why go through the expense and exasperation of marriage when you can get laid with no strings attached?

  • Ann N||

    that is only 1/2 of the equation.

    the upfront motive.

    the other 1/2 is the back-end: what happens when relationships are dissolved.

    sluts destroy upfront incentive, and progressive family law eradicates the back end.

    men dont just have no incentive to enter family relationships anymore. they are disincentivized.

  • Weygand||

    That's when she told me a story 'bout free milk and a cow
    And she said no huggin', no kissin' until I get a wedding vow

  • cavalier973||

    Hey! No song quotes without links!!

  • Hyperion||

    Well, not only do you remove the incentives, but you add on a lot of very harsh potential penalties?

    If I were a young man, I would never even consider getting married in this country, let alone having children.

  • Lady Bertrum||

    Women don't necessarily demand or expect marriage either. Fewer women want children. Women are responding to incentives too.

  • Hyperion||

    Of course. I am referring to the ones complaining that no man wants to marry them and at the same time vilifying all men.

  • Brett L||

    Not everyone is going to move in response to a change in incentives. Even if they were to benefit. Of course, the disincentives in this case aren't evenly distributed. They fall disproportionately on the lower socio-economic status men. So the people who could most benefit from "middle-class values" work-family-saving are pushed away from that model.

  • Ketogenic Paleo||

    Don't forget the divorced fathers. Those guys are hit hard; western societies have passed laws that de facto give women exclusive ownership of their children.
    Debtor's prisons still exist for people who can't pay child support from unemployment or from a judge ordering them to pay too much.
    Unfortunately you'd almost have to be a divorcee & see how the family courts work to figure this out.

  • Aresen||

    Is it OK to cross the picket line occasionally?

  • z80kid||

    We're talking about marriage here, not sleeping around. One can't 'occasionally' get married and raise a family.

    I have had a girlfriend for years. I've even occasionally helped support her - on my terms.

    But she clearly understands that I will never marry her or move in with her. I will never again be in a position where I must submit to female simple-minded selfishness under the threat of suddenly being homeless and losing half my income.

    Most of the men I know are divorced. Many (myself included) have teenage boys. Those boys see how each parent lives, and who has the upper hand. It's easy to see why they don't want to subject themselves to that when they grow up.

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    So we have what appear to be two pretty terrible books covered by a terrible review.

    That's fantastic.

    I don't understand Mr. Stockman's beef here. Is he really deriding those who respond to incentives? Why?

  • crazyfingers||

    I disagree with the premise of this article. The author brushes aside how far the pendulum has swung from a society that respects and rewards men to one that maligns and shuns them. PC culture has not been good for those of us who were unfortunate to be born into the "oppressive class" of heterosexual white males, as if we had any choice in the matter and deserve to be punished for the supposed sins of our ancestors.

  • Spoonman.||

    Well, the sins aren't just supposed.

  • crazyfingers||

    What is the sin that the vast majority of WASP's are guilty of -- building the wealthiest, most advanced and free society in the history of the world?

  • Spoonman.||

    You and me? None that I'm aware of. But at least in my case, I can count some quite rich Rhode Island slave traders among my ancestors.

    That shouldn't reflect on me or my daughter, of course.

  • SIV||

    Maybe we're kin.

  • UnCivilServant||

    I have working class white trash all the way back to farmers who fled the potato famine. There's no sins of the blood in there to atone for.

  • Doctor Whom||

    I have working class white trash all the way back to farmers who fled the potato famine. There's no sins of the blood in there to atone for.

    But as long as you're white, you have sins of the blood by osmosis. Remember that PC guilt is not only collective, but also coextensive with those identity categories that the PC crowd recognizes.

  • Square||

    I come from a long line of white trash myself. Can't trace dad's line, because we go illegitimate in two generations and don't have a real last name to go by. On the other side, the names kept changing 'cos no one had enough 'lernin to spell rightly.

  • Square||

    In college, though, I was definitely treated as the "white oppressor" speaking from a privileged perspective.

    The fact that most of the people treating me this way came from way more privilege than anyone in my family has ever seen never annoyed me in the least.

  • Hillary's Clitdong||

    But at least in my case, I can count some quite rich Rhode Island slave traders among my ancestors.

    Hah! I have one Nazi officer, several smugglers, and some assorted murderers in my family tree.

  • cavalier973||

    Smuggling is no sin. It's not even a vice. More of a "freedom fighter" kind of activity.

  • Long Range Boredom||

    Did the Nazi officer die in the war? If so, my grandfather may have stolen his swastika ring. You can have it back if you want.

  • Loki||

    We're not even sure if our family name is really the right one. Apparently some of my anscestors changed it after a little misunderstanding regarding a uhm, "withdrawal" from a bank... that they didn't actually have an account at.

  • Dr. Frankenstien||

    One ancestor fought in the Indian wars out West.

    Another relative was a Detroit City cop in the 30's and 40's. Positive race relations weren't exactly a strong point of his from what I gather.

    There may have been some moonshining in the family history as well but no smoking gun so to speak proving it one way or another.

  • Eduard van Haalen||

    The evidence may have disappeared...down the customers' gullets!

  • cavalier973||

    Moonshining is no sin. It's not even a vice.

  • JWatts||

    I can count some quite rich Rhode Island slave traders among my ancestors.

    Rhode Island you say? That's ok, just as long as they weren't racist Southerners.

  • canuck53||

    All cultures and nations have engaged in "sins" in the past. To single out "White Men" is stupid and PC bullshit

  • Square||

    "Building the wealthiest, most advanced and free society in the history of the world" =/= "free of sin."

  • crazyfingers||

    So what's your point...that contemporary men, those not in a protected class at least, should have to answer for the actions of a relatively small number of individuals that lived generations before them?

    How far back does this guilt trip go? The world is full of injustice and always will be, and the historical blame game just propagates it.

  • Calidissident||

    I could be wrong, but I think the reason you've gotten these responses is because you said "supposed sins of our ancestors." I think people our contesting the "supposed" part of that description, not that white people today deserve to be punished for what white people did hundreds of years ago.

  • Spoonman.||

    Yes, that's exactly where I'm coming from.

  • Square||

    Yes. And the implication that white males are exclusively responsible for building our civilization.

    Should all white men today be held responsible for shitty things white men in the past did? No.

    Should all black men today be held responsible for shitty things black men have done in the past? No.

    Insert other groups as necessary.

    I don't think anyone here is in fact blaming anyone for anything - I think the point is that women have options other than self-centered overgrown children, so they are taking them.

  • crazyfingers||

    "I don't think anyone here is in fact blaming anyone for anything - I think the point is that women have options other than self-centered overgrown children, so they are taking them."

    I feel the same way with the genders reversed. I'll pass on marrying a 21st century entitled brat, especially when I know that the courts will be heavily biased against me when the relationship inevitably crumbles.

  • crazyfingers||

    Well I used that word not because there are no historical atrocities but because they were committed by a small minority yet are ascribed to a much larger class of people regardless of actual involvement.

  • Square||

    Fair enough.

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    I don't believe in hereditary sin. It's one of things that makes Christianity so damnably evil.

  • BakedPenguin||

    North Korea, too.

  • cavalier973||

    Christianity isn't evil; you are.

  • Killazontherun||

    Slavery and war are hardly unique traits of Western Civilization. There is not a gene order in the human condition that did not at some point benefit from it or lose to it. The same with cannibalism. Africa was hardly a paradise before colonialism, no matter how many Muslim semi literates gathered in the town of Timbuktu (not as impressive as Black Athena would lead you to believe) to discuss the number of djinnis who can ride the desert on the same camel back before the colleges were incorporated in Oxford.

  • Square||

    Very true - people who obsess over the sins of the western world act as if the rest of the world was just sitting there minding its own business before the West invented Evil.

  • UnCivilServant||

    Well, they won't admit we invented anything else, so we get evil.

  • Killazontherun||

    Mind you, there is an intentional winking on my part. Timbuktu became a scholarly nexus after the Mongol nutpunch to Baghdad. That caused the flourishing of Islamic civilization to shift to North Africa and Spain. Some writers have shifted or obscured this fact for ideological reasons.

  • Bill Dalasio||

    Yes, but relative degree of sinfulness should enter into the equation. It's hardly like Spoonman's slave trading ancestors exactly invented the thing.

  • Killazontherun||

    Tracing my ancestry back to before the civil war my ancestors included slave holders and at least one slave. An octoroon sex slave to be more precise, who begat her master's bastards who were later adopted. There is no reason to be prideful of the fact your ancestors were either slave or master. One was too weak to defend themselves from abuse, the other used their position to abuse. Acknowledging the human condition is universally scummy gets our heads out of the delusional clouds.

  • Spoonman.||

    Why should there be an equation? Who gives a fuck whether I'm related to some dickhead who lived 250 years ago?

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Who gives a fuck whether I'm related to some dickhead who lived 250 years ago?

    Ancestry.com?

  • Bill Dalasio||

    Point taken. And I meant no offense.

    My point, though, was that the U.S. or the West in general was hardly unique in participating in the institution of slavery. To single out Western civilization for what was damned near a universal, is mendacious at best.

  • RickC||

    I've always found the arbitrary nature of lineage tracing enough of a cause for me to care very little about my ancestors back further than great-grandparents. Which side do you follow and why? What about the generation before that?

    If you traced out a family tree which included both genders' lineages branching at each generation back to 250 years you'd probably be related to nearly every person on earth.

  • Brett L||

    Eh. Its not about men as men. Its far more about men as husbands and fathers, equal co-participants in the family. Child support makes sure that they still pay for fathering children.

  • ||

    Child support makes sure that they still pay for fathering children bear the responsibility for a bad decision by both parties.

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    I'm philosophically opposed to child support in an age of "pro-choice" politics.

    That said, I fail to see who it is the payor of Support who "bears" the responsibility; each party bears responsibility.

  • ||

    Oh, I completely agree. It just never seems that both parties bear equal responsibility in family court.

  • Ann N||

    rights/control and responsibility are inseparable.

    if you have no control over a situation you have no duty to fix it. if you have control, you do have a moral obligation.

    US family court unwisely separates the two concepts and gives women the rights and men the responsibility. breaking apart the fabric of accountability and distributing the pieces to oppositional agents.

    its a recipe for disaster, and it creates moral conundrums left and right.

    its very similar to the peasant-ruler paradigm, where actual power to accomplish or decide something is removed from its rightful possessor.

    division of gender roles is more elemental to the human condition than modernists are willing to accept. permanence of relationships is a higher moral value than progressives and sexual revolutionists bothered to consider.

    there is no winner when a family dissolves. BUT, if we are going to continue the charade of gender equality you have to quit giving women the control and men the duty when families collapse.

    THIS is the new trend causing men to quit the marriage institution.

    the trend where sluts gave it away 'so why marry' happened a long time ago.

    the new trend is guys who would have married sluts WON'T cuz they dont wanna get screwed in family court.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Huh? Where are you getting the race angle from? If there is any group of men that has been the most harmed by modern family law and the welfare state, it's Black men.

    Regardless of that, masculinity of all flavors has taken a beating by the hyper-feminized Progressive movement.

  • crazyfingers||

    The race angle is there because the left makes it an issue with, for example, affirmative action, or the subsidized loans that lead to the housing crisis.

    You can argue that those things are ultimately harmful to minorities and I'd agree but the benefits are immediate, and so are the hindrances for those not in a protected class.

  • JWatts||

    Regardless of that, masculinity of all flavors has taken a beating by the hyper-feminized Progressive movement.

    Femininity too, for that matter.

  • Biden's Scroteplugs||

    My wife makes more money than I do.

    interesting strategy Cotton. let's see how it works out.

  • canuck53||

    She fucking around for sure on this loser

  • Heroic Mulatto||

  • DGPFL||

    WTF did I just read?

  • Heroic Mulatto||

  • Hyperion||

    Only one way out of shutdown. Give me everything I want, now! Wah, whaaaaaa!!!! Mommy, they got my toys, they're mine!!! Gimmeeee!!!!!

  • Pro Libertate||

    Leaders lead. Persuade. Convince.

    Obama has never once done that that I can recall. He's been a lame duck almost from the beginning. It took shenanigans to get major legislation passed even when the Democrats briefly controlled both houses. Digest that for a moment.

  • Hyperion||

    Amazing how reality works. Women want to act like men, shun femininity, and vilify men, and they wonder why one doesn't want to marry them?

    Feminists and proglodytes have a hell of a thing in common with their total cluelessness about actions and expected outcomes.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    American [w]omen want to act like men, shun femininity, and vilify men

    You know what I mean.

  • ||

    My understanding is that British women don't just want to, but already succeeded ...

  • Hyperion||

    Of course I do.

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    You mean you ordered a Russian bride?

    I like men's rights and all, but the MRAists who insist that the only wives worth having are LBFMs are kinda gross.

  • ||

    the MRAists who insist that the only wives worth having are LBFMs are kinda gross

    Like all people are gross who think that their personal preferences either ought to be binding on everyone else, or make them superior in any sense.

    Furthermore: mail order brides aren't guaranteed non-exploitative, either; due diligence should be practiced with all prospective mates, irrespective of gender persuasion or national origin.

  • pmains||

    Furthermore: mail order brides aren't guaranteed non-exploitative, either

    Now there's an understatement.

  • Hyperion||

    Do you think the only way to have a wife who is not American is to order a Russian wife? Maybe for you, but definitely not for all of us. Some of us have traveled internationally, and some of us even venture out of our little white puritan enclaves into places where there are ... shudder.... brown immigrant wiminz!

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    If you can't hang with American women and you want to lord over some passive immigrant lady, have at it.

  • Hyperion||

    I've hung out with plenty of American women. Also, my wife is far from being a passive immigrant.

    Thanks for the uncalled for insults, though.

    Have a nice day.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Go fuck yourself, NK. You come in the discussion insulting all of us in cross-cultural relationships and you expect a respectful response? Go eat a bag of dicks before I link to where you admitted the fact that you are a pedophile.

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    Go ahead and link to it. I said nothing of the kind.

    I didn't insult you. You took what i said as an insult, which is telling.

  • Hyperion||

    Umm, what you said to me was insulting. If you don't think so, you're not very bright. Calling my wife a passive immigrant? How is that not insulting?

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    I said nothing of the kind.


    Let facts be submitted to a candid world.

    I didn't insult you. You took what i said as an insult, which is telling.

    Don't bullshit me. Unless you were specifically flouting Gricean maxims concerning the pragmatics of natural language (not that you would have any clue about speech act theory and the like) the implications of your statement @ 12:40 were clear.

    God, you're pathetic. You insult people and then when people call you out on it, you claim they misinterpreted what you meant. Most of us grew out of playing that rhetorical game by 5th grade.

  • Tman||

    NK,

    You said this "If you can't hang with American women and you want to lord over some passive immigrant lady, have at it."

    That is indefensible, rude, ethnocentric and bullshit which exposes you as an asshole.

    I would take that line back, or explain why they shouldn't take it seriously, because if you really meant that you are an idiot.

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    That is indefensible, rude, ethnocentric and bullshit which exposes you as an asshole.

    I like how when I defend myself, I'm the asshole. Meanwhile, I have Hyperion basically claiming I'm afraid of "brown people" and HM calling me a child molester.

    So of the three, it's ME defending myself that makes me a jerk? OK.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Defend yourself from what? Jumping in the thread to insult Hyperion, myself, and a bunch of other commentator? You insult our wives and you expect us to suck your dick after that?

    I hope you die a slow and agonizing death from brain cancer, shortly after you find out your wife has been cheating on you with Pepe, the Filipino immigrant restaurant owner/entrepreneur.

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    You insulted my wife first, HM. She's American. You said that "American [w]omen want to act like men, shun femininity, and vilify men"

    So fuck you first. You started it with the gratuitous broad-brush painting of a nationality and then whined when you got called on it.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    You insulted my wife first,

    So, pistols at dawn? Is that what would shut you up?

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    And as an aside, I think your wife would find that your own statement that she no longer has sex with you to be more insulting than any comment I have made.

    Hope that helps.

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    Good thing that's not what I said either. Are you capable of honestly stating someone else's statements or do you instantly start lying and calling them a child molester?

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Good thing that's not what I said either
    I find that having a family has had a civilizing influence on me. I get things done, eat right, clean house, happy family yadda yadda...

    OTOH, the lack of sex and free time is fucking miserable.

    You take the good with the bad, I guess.

    You lying piece of shit.

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    "lack: the state of being without or not having enough of something."

    So, what I said was, "the fact that I am not having enough sex can be fucking miserable". Not enough is not the same thing as "she no longer has sex with you"

    It's not my fault you don't know the definition of words.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Oh, you expect your wife to be mollified by that?

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    She'd probably acknowledge things are down this year in that department, dude. That's what it means to have a partner.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Don't lecture me about relationships, you piece of shit, not only did my wife and I have to deal with cross-cultural misunderstandings, the byzantine immigration systems of two countries, and my wife's own illness, but we also have a child with a genetic illness (with all the stresses associated with her care). And yet, we've managed to maintain a high level of physical, emotional, and spiritual intimacy for a decade.

    So don't take out your failures on those of us in healthy and loving marriages, fuckhead.

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    Wow, you really got yourself wound up.

    Look, HM, I didn't realize you would get this upset. if it's worth anything to you, I apologize for offending you and I hope your child gets better.

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    Ha ha. You have tasty tears.

    If you cry this hard every time you get challenged, it's no wonder you had to go all over the globe for a partner.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    No, I was just afraid that I might have ended up with your sister.

    I couldn't imagine you as a brother-in-law.

  • KB Check Release||

    Dude you insult people on the boards all the time and then try to project it back on them.

    Bo Cara asks for it sometimes but you are turning into a great annoyance.

    I value most opinions on this MB and do not appreciate you always baiting people and using arguments in bad faith.

    Please Stop.

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    So to recap:

    HM attacks American women. I respond.

    I'm the one at fault? Wha huh?

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Yes! The dusky mulatto has offended the honor of White womanhood! Don your white satin cloak and ride with the Knights of the Klan!

  • Snark Plissken||

    If you can't hang with American women and you want to lord over some passive immigrant lady, have at it.

    Wow, just wow.

    Well my wife is white and I'm the immigrant. But I suppose I just can't "hang" with American women either. By your idiotic logic.

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    Well my wife is white and I'm the immigrant. But I suppose I just can't "hang" with American women either. By your idiotic logic.

    No, Snark. The reality is that there is a specific subset of American men who have a lot of ridiculous things to say about "American women", and you can Google this entire ridiculous subculture. It doesn't run the other way as a cultural observation.

  • Snark Plissken||

    No, Snark. The reality is that there is a specific subset of American men who have a lot of ridiculous things to say about "American women", and you can Google this entire ridiculous subculture. It doesn't run the other way as a cultural observation.

    Well, I find Eastern European women to be sexier than American women. Besides the fact that they are much thinner they are not afraid to be feminine. Does that make me a member of this ridiculous subculture?

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    Yeah, probably. I mean, on what grounds and on what evidence do you come to these massively broad conclusions? There are probably what, 50 million women in your dating range in the United States and that same number in "Eastern Europe", but you've decided that each is one monolithic cultural bloc?

  • Snark Plissken||

    On the basis of have grown up in the US and having lived the last fifteen years of my life in the Czech Republic. I've observed that the women here are much better looking, much thinner and much more feminine on average yes, than in America. There are differences between the states also. Are you contending that every single place in the US has the same number of eligible women of the same quality, on average?

    What about American women who say they prefer Italian men. Are they part of a ridiculous subculture?

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    Sorry, but aren't you essentially saying that American women are generally uglier, fatter and more masculine? I mean, stating the inverse here...

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Snark is not saying that, the OECD is saying that. Go rage against them, fatty.

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    I see something about obesity there. No word yet on "uglier" or "masculine". Try again.

    And if you're going to cite to something that uses BMI, I'd suggest you go back to whatever community college you came from and ask for a refund.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    And, you've just admitted your ignorance of the OECD. In addition to admitting your fetish for BBW, of which there is nothing inherently wrong, but don't get angry at those of us who don't share your fetish.

    Just what do you do for a living, by the way? I based on your lack of critical thinking skills and ignorance of basic cultural tropes, I assume it involves asking if one wants that "supersized" or not.

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    Well, no. That link you gave me relates to BMI. BMI has been thoroughly debunked.

    I admitted no fetish. You made that up (again).

    What cultural tropes are you talking about now? I am going to assume your pomposity combined with your verbosity means you're some sort of lecturer who insists on calling himself "Professor"

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    What the fuck are you talking about? You can't "debunk" a statistical methodology; you can only say it doesn't apply to a certain population, i.e., BMI doesn't work well with muscular athletes. You shouldn't formulate your opinions purely based on USA Today's pop-sci reporting.

    And, I'm a tenure-track, full-time assistant prof., thank you very much. Although I do adjunct over at my institution's school of Ed.

    So, when does your shift start? I'm in the mood for a Quarter-Pounder and my kid wants a Happy Meal.

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    You'll get spit on your burger and a literacola and like it.

    No, dude, almost of all of BMI is mathematical snake oil. It's not my problem you don't know that.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    No, dude, almost of all of BMI is mathematical snake oil

    Do you have a cite for that or are you just parroting something you half-read on a Paleo Diet forum or something?

  • Snark Plissken||

    Yes, that's what I'm saying. Although not masculine so much as lacking femininity.

    What if I were to say that in comparing women in Alaska to women in Texas, after having lived in both places? Would that ever be a valid generalization to make?

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    I mean, Snark, seriously, these are big places with big populations we're talking about. I know a lot of people who move out to NYC and wax lyrically about how much more "cultured" it is than "back home", but I don't take that kind of thing seriously either.

    Simply put, I don't think your anecdotal observations from childhood are sufficient evidence to validly compare populations. Moreover, it REALLY isn't enough to generate the kind of heat HM and Hyperion decided to put on "American Women", as if they're a monolithic bloc.

  • Snark Plissken||

    Well, my anecdotal observations lasted till I was 29. Plus I've been back a few times in the interim. Plus I have high school/college friends and relatives on teh FB and it is really amazing the amount of cheap man-bashing I see the women often engage in. That culture simply isn't here, at least not yet. You do believe in cultural differences?

    And you never answered my questions

    What about American women who say they prefer Italian men. Are they part of a ridiculous subculture?

    What if I were to say that in comparing women in Alaska to women in Texas, after having lived in both places? Would that ever be a valid generalization to make?

    Also, I know BMI isn't the most accurate of measures, but you aren't seriously suggesting that American's aren't fatter than Europeans are you?

  • canuck53||

    YES. compared to women in virtually every other country except possibly UK.

  • canuck53||

    you are a racist.

  • Ann N||

    American women suck. They have more opportunity, freedom, peace, legal rights than any generation of women ever.

    The ones who can wrangle a man into a marriage, voluntarily call it quits 2/3rds of the time when it ends in divorce (50%). him cheating isnt even a top 3 reason for her choice.

    also bear in mind that american men do more chores and are more amenable to womens rights than any other generation of men EVER.

    and 99% of men you would consider scum PUA would never enter the institution in the first place. women are bailing on the better half, the cream.

    that you could even imagine disputing this reality puts you squarely into the camp of feminism, an immoral ideology based on deception and inequality. ever hear of title IX? its morally indefensible.

    of course there are still good ppl out there, who manage to raise wonderful women who dont drink the feminism koolaid, but they are the exception to the rule, NOT THE NORM. you never claimed your woman was an exception, instead you attacked reality. she must be a real piece of work and done a real number on your brain.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    I'm not an MRA or a PUA or whatever acronym you want to throw at me.

    Secondly, if anything, my wife "ordered" me, as we met when I was an immigrant in her country, playing by her culture's rules.

    However, it cannot be denied that different cultures have different views on masculinity and femininity. In my opinion, American culture has discouraged women from expressing their femininity in ways that other cultures do not.

    One need only visit Quebec to observe how the average French-Canadian woman dresses to go to the market to see the truth in that.

  • Hyperion||

    Some people have apparently not experienced too much outside of their little boxed in world, HM.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    *shrugs*

    I guess. Downthread, he complains about not having sex. As for my wife and I, it's been nine years and one kid, and our sex life is great.

    But, I guess doing the "patriotic" thing is more important than actually having a loving and stable relationship based on mutual attraction and interest. Or something.

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    But, I guess doing the "patriotic" thing is more important than actually having a loving and stable relationship based on mutual attraction and interest. Or something.

    I'm not the one who derided an entire nationality - YOU DID. You're the one who brought that up.

    I didn't say shit about "patriotism".

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    I'm not the one who derided an entire nationality - YOU DID

    A.) I wasn't speaking to you, jackass. The comment was directed to Hyperion, as I know his wife is from another country.

    B.) In that context, the statement was tongue-in-cheek, as we both married women who weren't born in the US.

    C.) Go fuck yourself, you humorless child-molesting twat.

  • Hyperion||

    I'm a little bit surprised to find so much almost what comes off as bigotry on this site, not coming from Murikan, you know.

    Maybe it's a new sort of war boner or something like that, twisted patriotism...

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    So, to reiterate, I said nothing about patriotism.

    If men who complain about "American women" and go "abroad" to find wives have a bad reputation, *blame them* for acquiring that reputation. Sorry, but complaining about "America women" is straight out of the PUA playbook.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Keep sending more soldiers to die upon that hill, Herr General.

  • Hyperion||

    If men who complain about "American women" and go "abroad"

    Uhh, you are way out of context here. I was NOT complaining about American women as a whole. I was specifically referring to women who complain that no man wants to marry them while exhibiting behavior hostile to and unattractive to men. I was posting in the context of this thread. You are way off somewhere in something bordering on bigotry towards foreigners.

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    Too bad HM wrote this:

    American [w]omen want to act like men, shun femininity, and vilify men
    You know what I mean.

    and you said:

    Of course I do

    Those are YOUR words.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Quick question, NK, in all seriousness, do you have Asperger syndrome? Is that the problem here?

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    Right. Yours is a joke but mine is a horrible insult that requires calling me a child molester.

    Do you really want to go with the "lol I was j/k bro" defense?

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    You're labeled as a child molester based on your previous defense of child prostitution.

    Don't obfuscate.

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    I didn't defend child prostitution either. We had a spirited debate about the proper setting of the age of consent, something that happens here ALL THE TIME. Only this time, you got beat so badly you decided to start accusing me of child rape. Which is about as loathsome as you can get. If someone has a philosophical discussion about whether invading Europe was the right choice in WWII, do you call them a jew killer?

    I know that you fancy yourself an intellectual, but you're basically Joan Walsh - you instantly call people some (me especially) the worst things in the world during arguments.

    In this thread alone, you have said that I rape children, have Aspberger's, and now you've intimated I ride with the Klan.

    When you get called on the horrible things you say, you accuse someone of being unable to take a joke.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Only this time, you got beat so badly you decided to start accusing me of child rape.

    That state of affairs only exists in your mind. I showed the contradiction in your arguments via reductio ad absurdum, when presented with this, you refused to bite the bullet; thus, until you do, one must assume that you are an enthusiastic proponent of child prostitution.

    I know that you fancy yourself an intellectual, but you're basically Joan Walsh - you instantly call people some (me especially) the worst things in the world during arguments.

    This is were you are incorrect. We are not having an argument. I only engage in argument with my intellectual peers, of which you are not. Due to your inferior intellect, education, and morality, what is actually happening is that I am teaching you. The knowledge I impart to you is freely given and should be accepted with a sense of humility.

    In this thread alone, you have said that I rape children, have Aspberger's,[sic] and now you've intimated I ride with the Klan.

    And you started by explicitly stating that Hyperion and I are in sexually and economically exploitative relationships with mail-order brides. Your attempt now at claiming the moral high ground is laughable. So stop trying to play the martyr and admit you were out of line.

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    That's a lot of big words to say "nuh uh, I'm awesome and you aren't"

    Thanks for the laughs.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    That's a lot of big words to say "nuh uh, I'm awesome and you aren't"

    Does my vocabulary intimidate you, NK? The fact is I am awesome (and heroic) and you aren't. That's pretty much all your drivel deserves as a response.

    And the only reason you're laughing is that you're an idiot. That's what idiots do when they are confronting with something they don't understand; they laugh.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    *are confronted

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    I understand you perfectly. You think you're intimidating because you own a thesaurus. That's what makes it funny. Ooh, someone can press Shift+F7...wow.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Yes, how dare a linguist have a knowledge of words in which to express him thoughts with a degree of accuracy!

    Keep laughing, idiot.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    *his

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    You aren't using it for accuracy's sake. You're using it for puffery.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    And that observation based on your deep understanding of rhetoric and philology, right?

    Could you point me to a journal article you've published in the field? I am eager to drink from your font of linguistic knowledge!

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    DO YOU EVEN PEER REVIEW, BRO?

    I was right - you are an "academic". Your pompous arrogance and your incessant need to show off your vocabulary gave that away.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Well, answer me. Are you speaking from experience or ignorance?

    Cry more about not being "good with words", asshole.

    Again, do you have any sort of knowledge of what you speak or are you just talking out of your ass?

    Answer the question.

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    What question? You've asked three of them now, and all of them are loaded questions. Also, your first question is irrelevant.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    It's irrelevant to ask if some is formulating an opinion based on knowledge of the subject?

    Seriously? You earnestly wrote those words.

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    Some people have apparently not experienced too much outside of their little boxed in world, HM.

    I can almost guarantee I am better traveled than you.

  • Hyperion||

    I bet you make more money too, and have more education, etc., etc....

    You should join forces with Tony and Murikan, we need more trolls.

  • Hyperion||

    I bet you make more money and are better educated, etc, etc. Lol, is that you Shreeky? Or has Tony combined with Murikan?

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    Huh, look at these top links when you search "complaints 'American Women'" into Google:

    This Bullshit

    and

    The King of PUAs!

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Sorry to interrupt you while you're foaming at the mouth, but what does that have to do with a humorous observation that was between Hyperion and me?

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    Oh right. On the one hand, what you were saying to Hyperion was a private joke. But on the other hand you slag American culture in defense of yourself even though the observation was supposedly between you two.

  • Hyperion||

    But on the other hand you slag American culture in defense of yourself even though the observation was supposedly between you two.

    You're acting like Tony. Who 'slagged' American culture? This is getting laughable.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    I realize you're not very bright, but do try to keep up.

    Now, where did I say the observation didn't have a grain of truth, in my opinion?

    Are you pissed off because I don't think circa 2013 America is the best of all possible worlds?

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    Dude, you said this:

    American [w]omen want to act like men, shun femininity, and vilify men
    You know what I mean.

    You modified the quote to get a dig in at American women. Yes, that's what you did.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Jesus fucking Christ! Are you so fucking dense that you can't follow the context of a statement?

    Or do you get off on envisioning yourself as White Knight of the Internet? Sanctimoniously defending the downtrodden to fill your unwarranted sense of self-righteousness?

    Is that how you rationalize wanting to put your dick in a Cambodian child prostitute's asshole? You're "saving" her?

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    Is that how you rationalize wanting to put your dick in a Cambodian child prostitute's asshole? You're "saving" her?

    Right, but I'm the one who's out of line here.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Right, but I'm the one who's out of line here.

    Yes, you are. No one was speaking to you, asshole. But that didn't stop you from jumping in and spreading your concern troll bullshit all over this thread.

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    If you wanted to privately insult American women, maybe you should have sent Hyperion a private message.

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    Did you say it or didn't you?

  • Hyperion||

    He's apparently out of arguments (not that he had anything besides insults in the first place) and is now going all proglodyte on us.

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    Oh look, here are some more people complaining about "American Women":

    http://boycottamericanwomen.blogspot.com/

    Like I said, if you don't like the subculture you're in, get out and stop using their language.

  • Tonio||

    I hereby declare NLK to be a Troll. Begone.

    The "using their language" speech-police thing is what put him over the top.

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    You guys are seriously unbelievable. You'll let me get called all manner of horrible things and you never once speak up about it.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Let me guess, you've never read King Lear, have you?

  • Snark Plissken||

    FWIW, I think calling you a child molester is total bullshit.

  • Hillary's Clitdong||

    They insist that the only wives worth having are pounds-force meters?

  • Killazontherun||

    No truer words . . .

  • Killazontherun||

    In response to American [w]omen want to act like men, shun femininity, and vilify men. Did not see the shitstorm until my post wound up wayyy down here.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Watch out, Killa, NK is out for blood.

    Although, I must admit a certain impish pleasure in yanking his chain, and I apologize for that.

  • Killazontherun||

    S'alright. I got that you were joking, don't see why anyone would see it in any other light that you were alluding to the fact modern collectivist feminism has been making American women miserable for forty years and counting.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Well, NK has a long history of Internet White Knight-ing, so he felt he was "honour-bound" to defend the honor of those fair damsels in distress.

  • Killazontherun||

    On June 6, 1992 (looking right at the ticket stub at the moment) I did a nice little bit of concern trolling of my own. Ringo Star was in a band consisting of he, his son, and members of Guess Who. The guy beside me was a a leftist prick who shot me the evil eye because I had a copy of the National Review in my lap, I had purchased to read on the trip from Chapel Hill to Charlotte. He stands up on his seat during 'American Women' and jumps like a gibbon in heat. After the clapping died down, I turned to my date, and say, 'that song is so misogynist'. She agrees, 'I kind of like it, but those lyrics . . .'

    Lefty turns to me and says, 'it's not about American Women its about American foreign policy . . .' I said, 'then why bring up American women, why not, American men?'

    He was so furious. I was hoping he would try to get physical but he never rose to the bait.

  • Zeb||

    I think it is an absurdly broad generalization based on very little, but whatever. It could just be that what people think of as femininity changes sometimes. In casual dress, American men and women do dress in much the same way in a lot of cases. But it is more that both are dressing down.

  • Killazontherun||

    Well, I find my boyish little firecracker infinitely enjoyable. I wouldn't know what to do with a proper lady, anyway.

  • Square||

    I don't think the implication is that women are having trouble finding men. Just the opposite. If women were having trouble, men could continue with the whole "women are commodity and need to make themselves desirable to me as purchaser" attitude without consequence.

    I think what is being implied is that the Al Bundys of the world are free to continue being Al Bundy. Just expect to stay single.

  • JWatts||

    If women were having trouble, men could continue with the whole "women are commodity and need to make themselves desirable to me as purchaser" attitude without consequence.

    Isn't that exactly what's happening?

    How often do we hear stories about "a man not being able to find a decent woman" vs "a woman not being able to find a decent man"?

    I think that men are more apt to decide that if they can't find a woman who is really attractive to them, they'll settle for video games, sports and the internet and be satisfied with the choice. Whereas, women are prone to loudly complaining about the issue.

    Men aren't having an issue, because they'll substitute other items for a (in their mind) substandard woman. Women aren't as willing to accept a substitute, but also don't seem to want to actually take the effort to lose some weight and to work on their attractiveness.

  • Square||

    "How often do we hear stories about "a man not being able to find a decent woman" vs "a woman not being able to find a decent man"?"

    Honestly couldn't answer that.

    "Women . . . don't seem to want to actually take the effort to lose some weight and to work on their attractiveness."

    Really?

  • Fluffy||

    It's about time Reason stopped hiring writers who piss me off with their warboners and instead hired somebody who pisses me off because he's a pussy.

  • Tman||

    On behalf of myself and my fellow scabs, let me say to the strikers: Good riddance.

    This dude gets all the pussy. Just ask him.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    His twitter feed fills me with the uncontrollable, blind rage of the Ulfhethnar.

  • ||

    Writer, teacher, father, dude.

    Where have I seen a list like that ... yeah, on Hugo Schwyzer's page. Who managed to cut himself on the shards of the gender myths he shattered.

  • SugarFree||

    Who managed to cut himself on the shards of the gender myths he shattered.

    Excellent.

  • AlmightyJB||

    Pussy has all the power. They are free to use or not use that power as they see fit.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

  • ||

    This is quality entertainment.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    "Her mind ain't good; she insane because the penis done ejaculated all in the brain."

    I ask you, have truer words ever been spoken?

  • Loki||

    Her policy prescriptions—capped workweeks, paid family leave—seem tacked on.

    They only seem tacked on to the non-proggie. To a proggie that's the whole point of the book. "Ooh, goodie! Policy prescriptions! I was wondering when she was going to finally tell me what the governemnt should be doing about this."

    Of course, go ahead, institute "capped workweeks" (whatever the hell that even means, there's already this thing called "the weekend") and family leave time for men. Just don't complain when wages fall because men are no longer as productive as they once were.

    BWAHAHAHAH!!!! "Don't complain," man, I kill myself sometimes...

  • Hugh Akston||

    I don't believe in the institution of marriage for ideological reasons, but I heartily support the idea of long-term monogamous relationships.

    That being said, I don't really have the incentive to go out and find a girlfriend or long-term partner. Dating at all seems like more trouble than its worth. Not because of feminism or the feminization of men or whatevers (I think the equalization of gender roles is great). It's just that I can meet all of my basic needs without involving other people. I don't have any incentive to seek a relationship because I'm pretty content without one.

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    Your massive investment in Advanced Teledildonics doesn't count, Hugh.

  • ||

    massive investment in Advanced Teledildonics

    What's the NYSE tag for them? I think I know where I want to direct the funds I keep in my tax-free savings account.

  • Spoonman.||

    That is of course your choice, but I promise that a relationship with the right partner is amazing.

  • ||

    "Dating at all seems like more trouble than its worth"

    It is. But I hear it more from men than women. It seems like there's way more peer pressure amonst women to be in a relationship, yet they're almost always the most dissatisfied or feel like they've "settled". I guess men look at extra disposable income, freedom of choice, and weekend availability a little differently.

  • Spoonman.||

    ?

    I have extra disposable income because I am married.

  • Paul.||

    Pray to crom you never get divorced.

  • ||

    I'm talking about relationships, in general. Especially the new ones... really hurt the purse strings.

  • Paul.||

    You kinda nailed it for me there, Hugh.

    For me, I was married late in life, and subsequently divorced later in life.

    Marriage laws haven't kept up with reality, and the risks of marriage at my stage in life are too high.

    Plus, once you've actually lived a life, have kids in school and have a life built around these roots, the interjection of a partner means making much more significant sacrifices that could endanger my relationship with my child plus put me at a huge financial risk.

    As horribly sexist as it was, there was something to be said about 'allowing' your partner to divorce you. I would never demand those times back for obvious reasons, but now that the sexes are equal, one half the partnership can nullify the contract at any time, for any reason, period, the end. And when you have to fork over half of everything you own at a moments notice, you realize that marriage and divorce should be left to young people who don't have a pot to piss in.

  • Eduard van Haalen||

    "I don't believe in the institution of marriage for ideological reasons, but I heartily support the idea of long-term monogamous relationships."

    Just out of curiosity, what is the distinction?

  • Paul.||

    One ends with you giving over half your stuff and living in poverty for years after the fact, the other ends with you going your separate ways and the cost of a U-Haul.

  • Eduard van Haalen||

    It seems that, first, marriage was demoted from a key social institution to a lifestyle choice. Now, it's being actively disfavored.

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    not to go Cathy Young here, but on the one hand, I find that having a family has had a civilizing influence on me. I get things done, eat right, clean house, happy family yadda yadda...

    OTOH, the lack of sex and free time is fucking miserable.

    You take the good with the bad, I guess.

  • Libertymike||

    Enough free time to engage Bo Cara, Esq., however.

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    That's at work!

  • UnCivilServant||

    When you're at work, aren't you supposed to, you know, work?

    Or are you a government employee too?

  • Paul.||

  • ||

  • Paul.||

    Nice. Very nice.

  • Homple||

    Mr. Stockman should print out his article, store it in a safe place, and read it in seven years or so and see whether his attitude or situation has changed in the interval.

    I predict changes, and not positive ones.

  • datcv||

    I see a lot of arguments here about what was the point of the article and what was the conclusion -- it seems to me a good sign of a bad article.

    This seems like an article that belongs on Salon, maybe.

    Please try again.

  • Square||

    Maybe the point was that two different books from two different partisan perspectives reach opposite conclusions from the same data?

    It's a stretch, but that's the best I can do.

  • ||

    Given the amount of attention I receive from women married, I strongly encourage every other male to become doltish, castrated fathers who have no problem with "girls night outs" every weekend.

    Seriously. Not that I usually take them up on their ridiculously forward advances, but this has been a huge double incentive on why I do my damndest to never be put in that situation.

  • Paul.||

    , castrated fathers who have no problem with "girls night outs" every weekend.

    If it brings them closer to divorce, then we're doing them a favor.

  • ||

    I'm doing God's work.

  • Tonio||

    But a favor with negative consequences as well. Freedom from a dysfunctional relationship (good), coupled (!) with ongoing financial obligations (bad).

  • Paul.||

    Divorce starts bad, but gets better with age, like a fine wine. The early broke-ass years are worth the eventual freedom, lack of drama and silence. Nothing like sitting at my bar at night with nothing but my tunes, a whiskey and a blank, fucking, social calendar.

  • Brian||

    "There is nothing in it for me, no incentive and no reason...even if we had a pre-nup, it would mean nothing." Chris is afraid that, in Smith's words, he'll "pay dearly without the law or the culture on his side."

    If you're thinking about getting married, you better consider this long and hard. What's the probability that you're going to find yourself financially supporting a family you don't live with, and barely see, all because someone doesn't feel like they're "in love" anymore?

    I'm not saying never get married, but if you do, it better be with someone who takes it seriously. Especially if you start dropping children into it.

  • ||

    "If you're thinking about getting married, you better consider this long and hard. What's the probability that you're going to find yourself financially supporting a family you don't live with, and barely see, all because someone doesn't feel like they're "in love" anymore?"
    ^^This a million.

    When's the last time you heard a divorced father say "well, we just didn't love each other any more"?

  • Paul.||

    Zero, carry the zero... zero.

    I came up with zero, anyone else?

    Oh, and Brian, I present to you, one Internet.

  • Lady Bertrum||

    Dear women, if you could be more like Bioshock Infinite, that would be awesome, kthxbai.

    MMMMkay. I'll get right on that.

  • Lady Bertrum||

    Dear women, if you could be more like Bioshock Infinite, that would be awesome, kthxbai.

    MMMMkay. I'll get right on that.

  • Quinn||

    If they don't have the incentive then I support them. Just like if a woman claims she has no incentive I support her. Being Snarky and belittling their opinion doesn't make you any better.

  • Voros McCracken||

    So _this_ is what I lost all this weight for?

  • KB Check Release||

    I'm with you Voros. I'm starting to wonder why I've worked so hard to get into shape over the last year and realize that many women will just view you as a penis with a bank account.

  • Voros McCracken||

    That I'd take. All I seem to have managed is to give them less of an obstructed view of other men.

  • KB Check Release||

    Oh I'm not even at that point where penis + bank account is who I am.

    I just wonder if it is worth it at all if that is how I could easily be viewed as a potential mate.

    I'm thinking it isn't worth it, especially if the last girl I went out with is any indication of the caliber woman that is out there.

  • I<3Voros||

    What was wrong with the last girl you went out with?

  • Zeb||

    And being an almost famous statistician doesn't help?

  • Voros McCracken||

    I hope that was said ironically?

  • General Butt Naked||

    Didn't Brad Pitt play you in a movie? That should be good for some trim.

  • I<3Voros||

    Brad Pitt played you in a movie? I'd suck your dick for that and I'm a straight man.

  • Paul.||

    I'm with you Voros. I'm starting to wonder why I've worked so hard to get into shape over the last year and realize that many women will just view you as a penis with a bank account.

    Whoa whoa, what decade are you living in? Nowadays, it's just a bank account.

  • KB Check Release||

    +1 Paul.

    What was I thinking? They have machines that makes my appendage that makes Marcotte's blood boil obsolete.

  • Eduard van Haalen||

    You are all such romantics - it's like I stumbled across the Hallmark Channel here!

  • Bill Dalasio||

    Having read Smith's book, I can't help but wonder if Stockman bothered reading it, or just picked out choice pieces to mock. She makes clear she's writing a piece of advocacy, not a scientific analysis. She identifies a number of injustices that Stockman seems bound and determined to evade - paternity fraud, the assignment of responsibility to fathers irregardless of liability, punitive child support and alimony decisions, Title 9, local bans on mens' clubs while permitting women's clubs, the treatment of boys in primary education, etc. Regardless of whether they collectively create a disincentive for male engagement, they remain injustices. Stockman hasn't bothered to offer up a reason why we should not consider them such.

    Maybe he thinks he'll get laid by showing he's not like those icky men responsive to Smith's arguments. Somehow, I doubt it.

  • Volren||

    Yeah I read it as well and I remember thinking that her decision to rely so heavily on anecdotes (anonymous ones at that) would be an easy target for anyone trying to discredit her message.

    With that said a lot of the problems she points out are problems, I agree. I don't consider myself an MRA but as a libertarian I find more than a few of the issues they bring up to be important. Modern-day feminism is pretty much just another of the tentacle arms of the progs at this stage.

  • Jon Lester||

    I didn't know I was on strike. I thought I was just rejecting the entire Western social contract.

  • buybuydandavis||

    " My wife makes more money than I do. I've crossed the picket line two or three times without knowing it."

    He's missing the point. If your wife makes enough more than you that you won't be saddled with indentured servitude after a divorce, then sure, get married.

    Just be prepared to lose your child even if you're the primary care giver. And if your wife gets violent, you need to get out of there, because no matter what a psycho she may be, you'll end up brutalized one way or another - either by her, or by the criminal "justice" system. She may be the one who hits, but you'll be the one who goes to prison.

  • Paul.||

    He's missing the point. If your wife makes enough more than you that you won't be saddled with indentured servitude after a divorce, then sure, get married.

    In my circles, we call that "marrying up" which, if men are going to consider marriage, I strongly recommend. However, my understanding (and this is just my understand so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) is that if men marry up, they are, by definition, on strike and breaking the social contract.

    As best as I can tell from certain sectors of the feminist movement, men come in two flavors, and two flavors only:

    1. Domineering, demanding the woman doesn't work or, at minimum, must make less than he, lest his fragile ego be damaged.

    2. Free of ambition and aimless, only desiring to play X Box thus forcing women into being the bread-winners and workhorses- depriving women of their god-given right to suddenly stop working to pursue other hobbies or careers.

  • Rock Action||

    Well, Helen Smith just relies too much on anecdotal evidence, so let me tell you about MY life...

    I disagree with a lot of what Ms. Smith says, but this is hack shit.

  • Wintermute||

    Helen Smith is very smart, very articulate, very educated in this area (which this obscure book reviewer is not), and right, helpful, and timely in flagging the overcorrected, lurching cultural landscape that is of feminism's own making. Women need laws more than men and have used their historically recent suffrage to get laws passed that favor their interests and strategies in life. Is it any wonder that smarter men are realizing that marriage is now a bad deal for a man in the United States?

  • loellaviles||

    my friend's sister makes =$­8­0= an hour on the laptop. She has been fired from work for seven months but last month her pay check was =$­1­2­7­4­1= just working on the laptop for a few hours. here are the findings...

    http://WWW.WORKS23.COM

  • Paul.||

    So, she's the breadwinner.

  • cavalier973||

    And she has "girl's night out" with her male boss. That's why all their children look funny.

  • canuck53||

    What a rediculous article. If this hack actually looked at the facts he would see that marriage is becoming very rare for non-university educated men. It is only the upper middle class where it remains popular.

    What a hen-pecked loser this guy is. Why does Reason now feature left wing feminist socialists as writers

  • Hugh Akston||

    Shut the fuck up Merkin.

  • Long Range Boredom||

    Absolutely awful article due entirely to Stockman's smugness and inability to successfully articulate points.

  • Bill Dalasio||

    Have to agree with the recent comments. This is the first piece Stockman's contributed to Reason. It should be the last. And Gillespie should demand his money back.

  • Xmas||

    "Superdads"! You mean the husbands that are getting less sex than husbands in more traditional relationships...

    http://psychcentral.com/news/2.....51022.html

  • ||

    "Of these two thoroughly irrelevant books that nobody would have read or been interested in otherwise, I vastly preferred the one that confirms all of my personal feelings and validates my lifestyle choices." - Sebastian Stockman

    Thanks for the scoop, bruh

  • wilonacoury||

    my roomate's sister makes $78 hourly on the internet. She has been laid off for 6 months but last month her income was $16950 just working on the internet for a few hours. go to this site
    http://WWW.WORKS23.COM

  • Edwin||

    "If you're thinking about getting married, you better consider this long and hard. What's the probability that you're going to find yourself financially supporting a family you don't live with, and barely see, all because someone doesn't feel like they're "in love" anymore?"

    Yeah, which is probably why people should start getting married in/from churches, where the whole romantic love nonsense is valued less than the actual marriage, or hopefuly is. In general we need to get rid of the romantic love bs if society is ever to get over this marriage-rate disaster.

    Is that what I should do if I want to find a wife? Start going to church? I don't have many places to look for any kind of woman for anything in my life right now.

  • jolieena||

    I just want to add my story. I get paid over $87 per hour working online with Google! I work two shifts 2 hours in the day and 2 in the evening. And whats awesome is Im working from home so I get more time with my kids. Its by-far the best job I’ve had. I follow this great link http://cuttr.it/ukvczrq

  • wooffjordy||

    Start working at home with Google! It's by-far the best job I've had. Last Wednesday I got a brand new BMW since getting a check for $6474 this - 4 weeks past. I began this 8-months ago and immediately was bringing home at least $77 per hour. I work through this link, go to Economy tab for more detail ...

    =============== http://WWW.MAX34.COM

  • Suzanne Venker||

    This post is elitist. Not all books need to be like Warren Farrell's (with an abundance of notes) to be considered legitimate. So the men Helen spoke with—who, as it happens, are the very same men I've heard from for years—don't matter? They're losers bc of their views on gender relations? That's what I got out of this poorly written review.

    That marriage is on the decline and men are at the helm of this decline is not in question. It is a fact. If you want answers as to why it's happening, you have to be willing to hear those answers even if you don't agree or choose not to be a "man on strike" yourself. I find it comical that when so-called educated folks read about something with which they have not experienced personally, they write it off as idiocy. As if, since it doesn't exist in their own inner world, it doesn't exist at all.

    I invite those who are interested in what's actually happening in America with respect to men and gender relations to visit www.womenformen.org. It's not a blog to air personal grievances. It's a place to get educated.

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