5 Foreign Libertarians Making a Difference Around the Globe

The liberty movement goes international.

(Page 2 of 5)

2. Gurcharan Das: India

Courtesy of Gurcharan DasCourtesy of Gurcharan DasRecent news out of India has not been good. The gang rape of a 23-year-old student has illustrated not only the barbarism that is too often inflicted on innocent people, but also the inability of Indian authorities to address the failure of their institutions. And the recent skirmishes on the Pakistani-Indian border are only the most recent reminder of how worryingly fragile the border between two of the world’s nuclear powers is.

Gurcharan Das is an Indian libertarian who understands how important legal and economic cultures are for economic prosperity. In his book India Grows at Night: A Liberal Case for a Strong State, Das argues that India’s private sector would be able to grow were public institutions more effective. Das does not mean what many American libertarians think when they hear the phrase “strong state,” something that Das explained in a column for The Times of India:

A ‘strong state’ usually carries a bad odour, conjuring up authoritarian images of Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia. A ‘liberal, strong state’ is, however, not oppressive. It is efficient, enabling and tough against law-breakers. It punishes the corrupt swiftly. But it also protects liberties and dissent and enjoys legitimacy among the governed. A strong civil society is needed to hold such a state accountable. More than ever, Indians today need to make a liberal case for such a strong state.

Given India's economic potential it would be reassuring to see the ideas of a self-described Mises admirer being taken seriously.

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  • Sevo||

    Not a single one from the Peoples Republic of San Francisco.

  • Tony||

    And what a hellhole that is ...

  • Contrarian P||

    It's fine if you make a very high income, but if you make the national mean salary, you would be unlikely to be able to live in San Francisco. I suppose that's a good leftist solution...get rid of the poor through policies that price them out of the housing market (though still caring deeply about them, of course).

  • John||

    It is a city that is almost entirely white, the once great black and Chinese communities are almost gone, and devoid of children. It is basically Disney land for old white liberals. What a great model that is.

  • Hyperion||

    Sounds like they need a massive new section 8 housing plan.

  • John||

    Funny how the death of the San Fransisco black community never gets covered. If a city in say Texas turned that white, it would be a national story illustrating America's intractable racism.

  • Hyperion||

    The level of segregation here in Balmer is amazing. Liberal whites live in neighborhoods that are 90%+ white, and most of the 10% of non-whites are Asian, jews, or Hispanic. When you drive into other neighborhoods adjoining them, they are near 100% black.

    White liberals who claim to be the biggest supporters of minorities, will not live near them and they will do anything to keep them out.

  • ||

    As are the Irish.

  • ||

    Truly no real human being has red hair. They can only be of foul Irish blood. It cannot be hidden.

  • Hyperion||

    Gingers! They have no souls!

  • ||

    They're the ones who are REALLY behind all the conspiracies. If alcohol couldn't stop them, nothing can.

  • Rufus J. Firefly||

    Now there's a surprise. Liberal hypocrisy. Elizabeth Warren!

  • Rhywun||

    It is a city that is almost entirely white

    The census figures say different. It is less than half white, and about 1/3 Asian. Tiny black community, yes. But your argument would be more persuasive if you did the bare minimum fact-checking first.

  • trig||

    Hah.. I live in Idaho... if you see a a black guy on the street there is a 75% chance he's on the local college basketball team.

  • Sevo||

    Tony| 2.23.13 @ 1:21PM |#
    "And what a hellhole that is ..."
    Yes, the government makes what should be a paradise barely inhabitable.
    I'm told Chicago is more corrupt, but it's hard to believe.

  • sam the man||

    Chicago is a lot worse trust me

  • Ed Ucation||

    Doesn't Justin Raimondo live in SF?

  • ||

    The Obama Administration declines to comment whether they've made the disposition matrix

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    THEY'RE TAKING OUR LIBERTARIAN JOBS.

  • Cliché Bandit||

    ok...you get a plus one for that. BUT JUST THIS ONCE!

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    I'll take it.

  • Cytotoxic||

    American blacks IQ is not different from American whites IQ. As the free market improves things, African intelligence will rise. I'm more optimistic on Africa and India than Europe.

  • Sevo||

    "American blacks have an average IQ of 85, white have an average IQ of 103."
    Which is pretty much the reason to avoid judging people in silly groupings.
    Wonder what the difference is between people with blue eyes and those with brown ones?
    And how 'black' do you have to be to be 'black'? Is five drops of blood sufficient?

  • Sevo||

    New Rise| 2.23.13 @ 3:07PM |#
    "Wonder what the difference is between people with blue eyes and those with brown ones?"
    If there was a significant difference you would have noticed it. Five out of six black are dumber than the average white."

    So, it's 'everybody knows' is it?
    I do notice you're obviously dumber than a rock.

  • ||

    One internet buffoon does not constitute "everybody."

    Much more accurate.

  • Redmanfms||

    Hey everybody, it's Uhmerican.

    Plonk, 'nother Mary sock on the reasonable list.


    Fuck off and die in a fire racist.

  • 34lbs||

    U fucking stupid fucking racist.. can't wait till Heroic Mulatto gets here and skewers your ass.. in the mean time. Yes, it is a fact that blacks have on average a lower IQ than whites.. but this is also true when you compare lower class to upper class in general, and is linked to many things, micro- and macro-nutrition being key, the lack of a stimulating environment, and a whole load of other things like drug abuse, etc. Put this dude on the troll list....

    You do know that developed countries 90 years ago would have had the same shocking IQ statistics...

  • Sidd Finch||

    but this is also true when you compare lower class to upper class in general

    of course

    micro- and macro-nutrition being key

    Flynn has given up on that theory (in the US). I suggest you do the same.

    the lack of a stimulating environment

    That explains why Head Start is such a success.

  • 34lbs||

    Also, you may (nah fuck you, you probably get your info news off of stormfront), be aware of the Flynn effect, that is, the trend of increasing IQ across the globe, most prominently in third world countries, as most developed countries have approached a plateau according to recent statistics. It is often linked to nutrition, especially increased food supply (thanks norman borlaug), and the increased access to education. Learn Your shit New Rise...

  • 34lbs||

    It hasn't stopped in minority communities... and has begun to decrease in white communities... sorry these are facts.... Your lovepillow imported from japan doesn't count as your girlfriend.

  • Sidd Finch||

    It hasn't stopped in minority communities... and has begun to decrease in white communities... sorry these are facts....

    Those are things some experts assert, and others deny.

  • Sevo||

    "I'm part-Jewish"
    Some of my best friends...
    Stuff it, you racist pig.

  • ||

    There is a difference between being a racist and being an antisemite. I've been racist all my life, by the liberals' definition, and some of my best friends are Jewish.

  • Sidd Finch||

    The Flynn Effect in the US isn't g-loaded.

  • Sevo||

    New Rise| 2.23.13 @ 5:40PM |#
    "The majority of White Americans"

    Notice the caps here. I'll bet that New Rise thinks s/he's part of the Majority of White Americans, right, idiot?

  • ||

    The majority of White Americans support less immigration.

    http://www.fairus.org/facts/public-opinion

  • C. Anacreon||

    I'm guessing he meant African blacks.

  • ||

    American blacks have an average IQ of 85, white have an average IQ of 103.

    Citation Required

  • EDG reppin' LBC||

    The voices in his head told him so.

  • ||

    You really gonna "prove" that bro?

  • Copernicus||

    "You really gonna contest that, bro? Where do I even begin?"

    For such s stupid person, you stumbled upon a profound question:

    Where indeed would you begin to prove your statement?

    I'm guessing your beginning and end are the same place: null and void.

  • ||

    I am contesting nothing. It is you who claimed it. I simply require proof.

    Are you going to provide any...

    ...bro?

  • ||

    My friend, if you are going to hang here, you are going to need to do better than that. We don't accept a person's word on anything. Too many trolls and sock puppets. You make a claim like that, you fucking better be able to back it the fuck up.

    It appears you have a legitimate claim, no thanks to you. Thank Sidd below for bailing your ass out.

  • Sevo||

    "It appears you have a legitimate claim, no thanks to you. Thank Sidd below for bailing your ass out."

    Which "legitimate claim" is the stuff of fools.
    As mentioned above, can we please see the delta for those with, oh, blonde hair compared to brown?
    Can we please define "race" in a manner that stands objective examination? How many drops of blood does it take?
    I doubt it. Sidd may have bailed out the whacko claims of our new racist, but that does nothing to reduce the illegitimacy of the racist claims.
    If you read the wiki, you'll find: "Race in the studies is almost always determined using self-reports, rather than based on analyses of the genetic history of the tested individuals."
    Please tell me, am I French, Asian, German, Nigerian?
    Was Pushkin Russian?

  • Sidd Finch||

    Can we please define "race" in a manner that stands objective examination?

    Like "ecotypes," "race" is sometimes obvious and useful and sometimes there's a continuum with no obvious dividing line. For example Amerindian admixture is, more or less, normally distributed in Mexico. You could arbitrarily pick dividing lines for white, Amerindian and mestizo, but they'd definitely be arbitrary.

    That isn't the case with blacks and whites in the US. Blacks cluster around 20% white admixture, and whites have about 1% black admixture on average. There aren't enough outliers to significantly effect whatever is being measured.

    "Race in the studies is almost always determined using self-reports, rather than based on analyses of the genetic history of the tested individuals."

    I don't have a link handy but there's genetic research showing that self-reported ancestry is accurate in the 97-99% range for isolated groups like Basque, Jews, (more broadly) Europeans and Africans. Hispanic, being an ethnicity common to several races, is problematic.

    Please tell me, am I French, Asian, German, Nigerian?

    23AndMe can do that for you.

  • buybuydandavis||

    23AndMe can do that for you.

    Yes. See Paternal and Maternal Haplogroups.

    Those who deny races are basically denying heritability of genes.

  • ||

    The idea that "race is a social construct" is patently false. White and black populations have been evolving separetly for 50,000 years. White and Asian populations have been separate for 14,000 years. Athropologists can tell the race of a person simply by looking at it's skeleton. There are some borderline cases, whites who have 1/128th African blood, blacks who have 100/128th white blood, but that doesn't make the claim false. Those who have a significant amounts of African blood are less intelligent than those with trace amounts.

  • Sidd Finch||

  • ||

    Thanks Sidd.

  • Sidd Finch||

    no problem

  • Contrarian P||

    Judging by your commentary, I'd say your intelligence is the issue in question. As to your statement, it really doesn't make a lot of sense.

    Who says that "Africa" (as if the whole continent is some monolithic entity) needs to "advance to the level of America"? What level are we on, exactly? We certainly have quite a few of our own problems and flaws. Perhaps the peoples of Africa don't need or want the same problems we have?

    "Free markets need people to participate in them."

    Meaning what? The inhabitants of Africa aren't people?

    "all the testing says not really."

    Really? All the testing? Every last test? I'm really curious as to your sources for this statement.

  • Sidd Finch||

    If there was an IQ test that found Africans at the same level as us it's creator would be a millionaire.

    I know he's trolling, but this statement is obviously true. Hell, NYC paid somebody a bunch of money to throw out all the hard questions on the FDNY test.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/new.....-1.1168399

  • Sevo||

    Sidd,
    The problem of defining "race" remains, regardless of those gaming the issue.

  • Sidd Finch||

    The difference between blacks and whites in the US is so substantial that whatever definition you use, it's not going to significantly effect the results.

  • Azathoth!!||

    No, it actually doesn't.

    While there is endless blather about how hard it is to actually define 'race', in reality race is so definate that it can often be discerned via optical examination of bones.

    The purpose of the contray opinion that has been masquerading as fact is to make 'racism' look both more heinous and more exclusively a 'white' creation(and this blaming of 'whites' is done by peopple who tell us that race is a social construct).

  • Virginian||

    PLus IQ is a useful metric, but not the only thing worth looking at.

    I know a guy who knows jackshit about any of the things I know about. He dropped out of high school, he probably hasn't read a book in 20 years. He's ill mannered, uneducated, crude and would probably have an average IQ at best, if he was ever tested. So what does he do for a living? He runs a couple resturants that earn him about 1.3 million a year.

    The map is not the terrain.

  • John||

    There is nothing dumb about people in Africa. If you lived in a country where the elites stole everything, you would also make some of the decisions they make.

  • 34lbs||

    No, you would drop out of school, and engage in crime and be raised with poor nutrition, because between Shockingly oppressive states and equally oppressive warlords, all your crops would be stolen, or taxed to no end, there would be no schools or jobs. Do you know they have a youth alchoholism problem in africa?

  • Hyperion||

    If you lived in a country where the elites government stole everything,

    We're working on it, John, just need a little moar cronyism.

  • John||

    That is what they want. If you are in charge, Africa and Latin America are fabulous. Our elites are green with envy towards African and Latin American elites.

  • Hyperion||

    I think our dear messiah is more jealous of China, he even said as much.

  • Virginian||

    Because there aren't any blacks in science, math, or engineering. Derp derp derp.

  • Virginian||

    So how many does it take to advance civilization?

  • ||

    Even if you're 100% right about everything you say about the people living in Africa, wouldn't the presence of a solid free market system attract scientists, engineers etc. from outside of Africa? I mean I don't think that half of the graduating class of MIT would pick up and move there or anything, but it make it a lot more attractive place to be plying your trade.

  • ||

    "it would make it"

  • ||

    No, just "immigration".

  • Sidd Finch||

    The problem is keeping a "solid free market system" with market-dominant minorities.

  • Bill Dalasio||

    Except that's not really true. As great as STEM workers are, things like restaurants, clothiers, brewers, or bakers are much more readily identifiable as the foundation of civilization. You don't get the scientists, the mathematicians or the engineers until civilization is already firmly established. You don't get wilderness engineers or frontier mathematicians. It doesn't work like that.
    And, really, that's why your initial thesis is false. Relatively stupid people CAN and in fact often DO manage to establish and sustain relatively functional civilizations. Much more essential than any particular level of brilliance is an absence of a physical predation, either by the state or by those the state is ostensibly created to restrain.

  • ||

    I suppose when talking about ANY civilization, you're point is accurate. But NewRise was talking about our civilization, which can't be sustained without mathematicians and scientists.

  • mnarayan||

    This new persona seems like it could have potential, but aren't you concerned its a little too obvious?

  • Cliché Bandit||

    My thoughts also. Came right out of the gate going for third base. You have to ease into it, let them think you are misguided and can be taught. Granted on this board trolling is more difficult due to the extremely cynical nature of the commentariat. One of these days I am going to give it a try, to test my creative ability. This new one though...AT MOST a C -.

  • ||

    cosmotarian

    Drink!

  • 34lbs||

    And neither are they all non-retarded... And some aren't even real libertarians, you fall into the segment that is un-libertarian and retarded.

    I can understand the opposition to immigration on purely pragmatic grounds (the implications for social services, healthcare, etc.), and some socially conservative values on the grounds that they may be an important foundation, but I don't know what being a retarded fucking racist prick has got to do with it... also you said cosmotarian.

  • 34lbs||

    "Racism is an ugly form of collectivism" - Ron Paul

    Racism devalues the individual and their rights, libertarians are meant to believe that all men and woman are born with equal rights, and to not be valued by whatever social group they belong to, you should read up on some Lysander Spooner, Rothbard, Thomas Sowell, Frederick Douglass, etc. All of them had interesting things to say about racism... and were all classical liberal/libertarian....

  • Sidd Finch||

    Well, one vital and recent social change has been not only truly revolutionary but has occurred at almost dizzying speed. Namely: Until literally mid-October 1994, it was shameful and taboo for anyone to talk publicly or write about, home truths which everyone, and I mean everyone, knew in their hearts and in private: that is, almost self-evident truths about race, intelligence, and heritability. What used to be widespread shared public knowledge about race and ethnicity among writers, publicists, and scholars, was suddenly driven out of the public square by Communist anthropologist Franz Boas and his associates in the 1930s, and it has been taboo ever since. Essentially, I mean the almost self-evident fact that individuals, ethnic groups, and races differ among themselves in intelligence and in many other traits, and that intelligence, as well as less controversial traits of temperament, are in large part hereditary.

    Murray Rothbard

  • Sevo||

    "Essentially, I mean the almost self-evident fact that individuals, ethnic groups, and races differ among themselves in intelligence and in many other traits, and that intelligence, as well as less controversial traits of temperament, are in large part hereditary."
    Quoth Obviousman!
    Yep, everyone of us is different, and genes play some part in that.
    But, uh, what does that mean? Do we get a DNA test on a gal who is sorta brown?
    Sorry, I don't care if the person I'm dealing with is blue-eyed even if an examination of groupings says the average blue-eyed person is 'way smarter than me (brown-eyed)

  • Rhywun||

    individuals, ethnic groups, and races differ among themselves in intelligence and in many other traits

    Individuals, sure. The rest is collectivist scare-mongering.

  • Sevo||

    Exactly.
    I think you did in 10 words what I've been trying to express.

  • ||

    "individuals, ethnic groups, and races differ among themselves in intelligence and in many other traits"

    Individuals, sure. The rest is collectivist scare-mongering the truth.

    Fixed.

  • Sevo||

    George Smith| 2.24.13 @ 2:06PM |#
    "individuals, ethnic groups, and races differ among themselves in intelligence and in many other traits"

    Individuals, sure. The rest is collectivist scare-mongering the truth.
    Fixed."

    Are you "white" George? Are you 'concerned' about those other people, George?

  • ||

    Racism is BY DEFINITION collectivist.

    The entire nature of racism is grouping people together according to arbitrary physical characteristics. Irregardless of what you think about the value and characteristics of that group, as soon as you even recognize the existence of "race", you are being racist.
    There are no real "races" except the human race. Everything else is a social construct.

  • Cliché Bandit||

    Irregardless

    AHHHH!!!!!

  • Redmanfms||

    AHHHH!!!!!

    Yeah, thought the same thing. It's like being slapped when you come across it in a sentence.

  • ||

    I suppose genes are social constructs too. So are skeletons, because an anthropologist can easily tell what the person's race was by their skeleton. Melanin, also, is a social construct.

  • Azathoth!!||

    'Race' is the term used for the truncated speciation of the humanity.

    I suppose someone thought it was a better term than 'breed'.

    Like all other animals, different breeds of human share certain traits, and lack certain traits.

    This is reality.

    The 'social construct' is that marked physiological differences have no effect on people just because you call them human.

    Racism is a form of collectivism. Being aware that there are differences between the various 'races' of humans is understanding, and accepting evolutionary theory.

  • ||

    He/she/it was around last night. Couldn't figure it out. Of course I was drinking...

    Guessing either furrin or troll. Or both.

  • SIV||

    Lame osmotarian troll who is so butthurt over "cosmotarian" he'll create an obviously fake racist or xenophobic persona to say "cosmotarian" a lot as an attempt to discredit others who use the word.

  • 34lbs||

    Doubt it.. just some racist who was attracted to libertarianism through Glenn Beck or some other Fascist Pseudo-Libertarian personality...

  • SIV||

    No. It is clearly a sockpuppet. It's sockpuppetry skills are even worse than Mike Riggs' failed foray into pseudonymous commenting.

  • ||

    No. It is clearly a sockpuppet.

    Meh. Maybe. If it is, he's not doing a very good job.

    I suspect he's just a troll who's not too bright.

  • Virginian||

    Glenn Beck isn't a fascist. You use words a lot without knowing what they mean. You should work on that.

  • Sam Grove||

    While the zeitgeist tells us their intelligence is the same as ours,

    So what?
    An enterprising attitude is more useful in economic growth than is great intelligence. Many successful businessmen hire people smarter than themselves.

  • Sevo||

    New Rise| 2.23.13 @ 6:42PM |#
    "I understand a moron can run a company. Many business leaders are nothing more than manipulative assholes who lie, cheat, seduce(women in the workplace, wonderful idea!), and suck up to get their way to the top. But they are worthless without the inventors and scientists upon whom our civilization is based."

    Real stupidity there.
    No, successfully running a company isn't the province of a moron. Nor is selling the product, nor is advertising it.
    Go ahead, invent that better mousetrap. And starve waiting for someone to buy it.

  • Rufus J. Firefly||

    Seriously. What the fuck? I know the new narrative pimped off by Obama and liberals is to downplay achievement and reduce it to stuff like "you didn't built it" and "how much money do people need?" and "rich people who inherit are lazy" but that's just plain sad what New Rise is saying.

    If you're an idiot, trust me, consumers will know and you will fail - unless the government gets involved on some level and then things get really confusing.

    'Illusion is magic and magic is illusion!' Doug Henning.

  • Sidd Finch||

    “inherently gloomy about the prospect of Africa ... all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours – whereas all the testing says not really” -- James Watson

    "not optimistic about the prospects for Africa ... While the zeitgeist tells us their intelligence is the same as ours, all the testing says not really." -- Mary, I'd bet

  • Sidd Finch||

    Maybe, but she's mostly a fucking lunatic. The kind of lunatic that would almost copy and paste something she just read, try to connect to the most recent H&R post, and comment incessantly while clearly having almost no knowledge about her newest obsession.

  • Hyperion||

    What is this outrage?!!! Who has dared to speak that there might be Libertarians in other countries, outside of the great fatherland, Murika?

    These fureners can't be just deciding that they want to be free, they need Murika to save them, with drones of course!

  • John||

    If only it were more true. I would be game to being an expat. Sadly it seems that most of the world's libertarians don't pay a lot of attention to politics and let the leftist assholes run their government. For example, a lot of Brazilians are very anti-government. Yet, somehow Brazil ends up with one leftist nitwit after another in charge.

  • Hyperion||

    somehow Brazil ends up with one leftist nitwit after another in charge.

    Low information voters, John, just like here.

    The nitwits speak with fork tongue. They speak like socialists and let the markets grow through capitalism. Besides that, we have our own leftist nitwit in chief, he is no better than Dilma, I can assure you of that. Those are two peas in a pod, throw in a third pea, like Chavez, and you have a big fat socialist pea pod.

    I feel a lot more free when I am down there. Now, here comes Tulpa...

  • Cytotoxic||

    I feel a lot more free when I am down there.

    You keep telling yourself that in spite of all the evidence otherwise. It won't make it any truer but you'll fell great.

  • Hyperion||

    What evidence is that, Cyto? I am talking from my own personal experience, but it's nice that you want to tell me what I feel, because you know more about it.

  • Cytotoxic||

    http://www.freedomhouse.org/si...../files/FIW 2013 Charts and Graphs for Web.pdf

  • ||

    I'm not seeing the "Hyperion Personal Experience Index" being cited in that link anywhere..

  • Hyperion||

    Thanks, Sy. I say something from my own personal experience and Cyto pulls some charts out, or just says that I 'make stuff up'.

  • ||

    That's because cyto refuses to believe individuals have different value systems.

  • Cytotoxic||

    Or I just don't care about people's subjective sentiments.

  • Hyperion||

    Nope, it's just that in your neocon brand of nationalism, anything that threatens your Murika of not being superior to everything and everyone else in the world, is like threatening to rip off your precious security blanket. Get over it, you will feel better.

    I have absolutely no need at all to come here and 'make up stuff'. I'm a Libertarian and a realist. I see things, I experience things, and I come here to share my experiences.

  • Cytotoxic||

    Hyperion: insert factually wrong statement

    Me: yeah that's bullshit

    Hyperion: NEOCON NATIONALIST MURIKA

    Holy shit are you this retarded in real life? Seriously re-read your stuff. You sound like a fucking whiny child.

  • ||

    more like..

    Hyperion: I like other countries for personal reasons.

    Cyto: DEMONSTRABLY FALSE! (SEE MY IRRELEVANT LINK).

    Wow, what a disingenuous asshole..

  • Sidd Finch||

    Hyperion: NEOCON NATIONALIST MURIKA

    "Murika" has it's uses, namely identifying the speaker as an unoriginal dumbass.

  • Virginian||

    Or I just don't care about people's subjective sentiments.

    Except that's an important criteria. Expatriation for me is low on the options list, because I really really like guns, and it's a genuine hassle in pretty much every other country to have them.

    Or to use another example: a gay man with an antipathy towards gun ownership would think MA to be more free then VA, while a straight man who loved guns would think the opposite. Hell, subjective values is why trade exists in the first place. Is this an Objectivist thing or what?

  • Rufus J. Firefly||

    Listening to Obama spew off about the dangers of sequestration while cops stood behind him made me vomit.

    What a piece of work this guy is with his human props. First, shamelessly the kids for gun control and second, the scare-mongering of sequestration.

    Your 'super brain' at work in the flesh. Still don't get how this guy got a second term.

  • d_remington||

    Because there's no "let's just have no president for the next 4 years" box to check.

  • Cytotoxic||

    Brazil did have a center-right government that basically built the current prosperity back in the 90s. He was so successful that he moderated his leftist successor, who spent a lot of money on shit but didn't screw things up too bad. Dilma came after that guy and she's also a spend-a-lot type but she's pretty pro-development. Not nearly as bad as Chavez.

  • Hyperion||

    Lula did a lot to build the present prosperity. Dilma is his puppet, basically, and the same policies continue. Cardosos party was basically socialist also.

    No, Dilma is not nearly as bad as Chavez.

  • Cytotoxic||

    What did Lula do aside from allow some development and spend a lot?

    Cordosa undertook a lot of market reform.

  • Hyperion||

    Maybe Lula learned the spending thing from Europe and the USA. If they continue down that road, the growth will stop.

    The problem that you have with me, is that you are assuming that I am saying that somewhere else in the world, might be more free than the US in some ways. And for whatever reason, you seem offended by that. I really don't get that.

    There is currently nowhere in the world that does not have some problems, to a lesser or greater extent. Nowhere is perfect, and here is not perfect either.

    The problem that I have with the US is that there is an increasing atmosphere of police state like oppression. That increases all of the time. If we continue down that road, we are headed for a totalitarian regime.

  • EDG reppin' LBC||

    I get it. There are examples between states here in the US. For example, I go to Indiana and I feel great 'cause I'm walking around smoking like a chimney. I feel "freer" in that aspect than I do in California.

    However, in California I feel "free" to let my license plates expire on my old POS Ford for the last two years. I can drive it around and be fairly confident I won't get a ticket. Try driving with expired tags in Indiana, and you'll get pulled over and ticketed within a half hour.

    A place like Brazil may have more draconian laws re: guns, licensing, business regulation, etc. But the reality is, on the street level, many of those laws are ignored by citizens and unenforced by the government. Since you are experiencing Brazil on the street level, it feels "freer".

  • Hyperion||

    For example, I go to Indiana and I feel great 'cause I'm walking around smoking like a chimney

    Windiana is way freer than here in MD, right up to the point when the climate finally kills you. I lived there for more than 10 years. I just cannot stand the climate anymore. I still own a property there, and go back sometimes because I have family there.

    In Brazil, I can walk from our house to the beach, about 3 blocks, drinking a beer right out in the open, stop and talk to a cop standing on the corner, they will not say a word. Everyone does it. If you tell them that you cannot drink a beer in public outdoors in the US, without being surrounded by a yellow plastic fence, they find it absurd.

    You can own a gun in Brazil, in your home. The licensing process is draconian, yet I know folks there who own guns. There is no open or concealed carry. They do have rights groups like the NRA there who are working to change this.

  • EDG reppin' LBC||

    If you tell them that you cannot drink a beer in public outdoors in the US, without being surrounded by a yellow plastic fence four blue uniforms and beaten ruthlessly, they find it absurd.

    FIFY

  • Pope Jimbo||

    Hah, I remember a time in Tokyo where I had bought a beer out of one of the vending machines and was drinking it right on the street while talking to some of my Japanese coworkers.

    A cop came ambling by and I automatically hid the beer behind my back. Coworkers were all amused. I had to explain that yes in the US drinking on the street would get you in all sorts of trouble.

  • Rufus J. Firefly||

    "A place like Brazil may have more draconian laws re: guns, licensing, business regulation, etc. But the reality is, on the street level, many of those laws are ignored by citizens and unenforced by the government. Since you are experiencing Brazil on the street level, it feels "freer"."

    Pretty much what I saw in Italy. One example that made my friend and I laugh was coming out of the San Siro after the Milan derby. 85 000 people descended upon the narrow streets of that city and traffic cops tried to control the flow.

    They held up the crowd for, say, 30 seconds before a couple of guys irreverently ignored the signals.

    Next thing you know, wonderful Italian chaos. We just went with the flow as did the cops.

    Literally police officers mingle in with the people over there.

  • Cytotoxic||

    might be more free than the US in some ways. And for whatever reason, you seem offended by that. I really don't get that.

    That's not what I'm saying I'm just calling you out on bullshit and you're too mendacious to respond to that, so you make up stuff like the above statement.

  • Hyperion||

    so you make up stuff like the above statement.

    I make stuff up? What stuff do I make up?

  • Cytotoxic||

    "the US is possibly the most authoritarian society on the planet now"

  • Hyperion||

    I don't think that we are currently the most authoritarian country in the world. But we are working on it, NDAA, Patriot Act, militarized police forces, FISA, etc... I personally do not want to stick my head in the sand and pretend that it's not happening. We are on a slippery slope. At the bottom of that slope is totalitarianism.

  • Cytotoxic||

    Back-pedal back-pedal back-pedal...

  • Virginian||

    More like you're punching a strawman. He did not say:

    "the US is possibly the most authoritarian society on the planet now"

    He said

    The problem that I have with the US is that there is an increasing atmosphere of police state like oppression. That increases all of the time. If we continue down that road, we are headed for a totalitarian regime."
  • Gladstone||

    Actually he did say that:
    the US is possibly the most authoritarian society on the planet now

    http://reason.com/blog/2013/02.....nt_3568556

  • ||

    Awww, Cyto got his butt hurt and here's Glad to lick it for him.

    There's a part you left off of that statement you quoted, but you already knew that.

  • Gladstone||

    You mean these weasel words?

    ....and if we aren't we will be soon

  • ||

    Yeah, that kinda changes the sentiment behind the rest of the quote.

    Lol at qualifiers being "weasel words" now. (And can you seriously say with NDAA, The Patriot Act, the WOD, and all the other bullshit they're trying to cram down our throats that we aren't on the slippery slope?)

  • Gladstone||

    Well he was added a qualifier that contradicted the claim he just made.

    (And can you seriously say with NDAA, The Patriot Act, the WOD, and all the other bullshit they're trying to cram down our throats that we aren't on the slippery slope?)

    Strawman. I never claimed that the US isn't going down an authoritarian road. I myself have posted several comments saying that some form of totalitarianism seems to be in the US' future.

  • ||

    Well in Brazil's defense they did elect the most libertarian politician in the world.

    Francisco Everardo Oliveira Silva, whose clown name is Tiririca (“Grumpy”), got more than 1.3 million votes, more than twice the number of votes received by his next closest competitor in the state of Sao Paulo. How did he do it? By being completely honest.

    “What does a congressman do?” Grumpy said in campaign ads. “The truth is I don’t know. But vote for me and I’ll [find out and] tell you.” He promised, in fact, to do nothing during his term other than finding out what they do in Congress and telling the voters about it, and voters seemed to think that was a great idea. Or they may have been swayed by Grumpy’s slogan: “It can’t get any worse!”

  • Hyperion||

    an inexperienced, illiterate clown has won a landslide victory in Brazil’s congressional elections

    He would fit right in with our own congress critters.

  • 34lbs||

    There are a shit load of libertarians in northern-europe.. they call themselves liberals, but you will tend to see a lot more overlap, e.g. FDP The Liberals in Switzerland, the Radicals in France, etc. This article actually understates it...

  • Sevo||

    34lbs| 2.23.13 @ 6:29PM |#
    "There are a shit load of libertarians in northern-europe."

    Haven't seen it. Cite?

  • 34lbs||

    Like i said FDP The Liberals has a shit load of influence in switzerland, the word liberal is a lot closer to libertarian in EUrope...

  • Gladstone||

    Well being a foreign libertarian means opposing regimes that the US does not like and leftists who don't like the US so according to Raimondo and co. means they are US puppets and not libertarian.

  • ||

    http://www.marketwatch.com/sto.....2013-02-23

    I don't know what hurt more after reading that, my brain or my heart.

  • Hyperion||

    These people don't know the difference between free markets and cronyism.

    All we can do is educate future voters, these old socialist liberals are beyond redemption, they will continue to say stupid things until the day they finally kick the old bucket.

  • EDG reppin' LBC||

    Hmmm... after lunch today, I think I'll drive up to SLO and punch this Farrell character square in his commmie face.

  • Hyperion||

    We encourage you to punch all the leftist face that you can. We'll start gathering up a donation pool to bail you out.

    Please take someone with you to get that on video.

  • ||

    Make the world a better place,
    Punch a progtard in the face!

  • Hyperion||

    +1, lol

  • EDG reppin' LBC||

    Is Paul Farrell Patently Insane?

    This guy thinks so: http://articles.businessinside.....capitalism

  • fish_remote||

    Here's a reader comment from trueamerican1 that has my back: "Dear Marketwatch, you really need to consider upgrading your editorial staff. Articles like this one are only fit for the recycle bin on my desktop."

    Going to the comment threads to get backup! Strong move....I like it.

    sarc/

  • ||

    Interestingly, there are no comments on the page he links to. Either he thought linking to comments that aren't there was a good idea, or the comments there were all deleted.

  • ||

    Oh my.

    You have a choice. You can have laissez-faire capitalism where the strong crush the weak at every turn or you can have regulated capitalism that is a democratically elected government that uses the rule of law to manage the needs of a society that chooses through the voting booth how their society is to be shaped. If you do not believe in a managed society, then you support chaos and anarchy. You either believe in civilization or you do not. Civilization is a shared set of values that are managed through some form of government. If you do not like the rule of law that supports the shared values of a society or civilization, then I suggest you move to Somalia. They have exactly what you are looking for there.

  • Virginian||

    Signed, Barack Obama.

  • Hyperion||

    then I suggest you move to Somalia

    Wow, the lefties have really ran with this move to Somalia thing, have they not?

  • KPres||

    They should read this....

    http://www.observatori.org/pai.....omalia.pdf

    This paper has explored the consequences of state collapse for a country that existed under the rule of a vampire state. Far from chaos and economic collapse, we find that Somalia is generally doing better than when it had a state. Basic economic order is possible because of the existence of a common law dispute resolution system and a non-26 state monetary system. On that foundation we find that urban business and commercial activity is possible and that the pastoral sector has expanded. This paper’s main contribution to the literature on Somalia’s living standards has been to compare them to
    those of 42 other sub-Saharan African countries both before and after the collapse of the national government. We find that Somalia’s living standards have improved generally and that they compare relatively favorably with many existing African states. Importantly, we find that Somali living standards have often improved, not just in absolute terms, but also relative to other African countries since the collapse of the Somali central government.

    Things are even better in Northern Somalia, aka British Somalia, where they've had a tiny but stable minarchist government since 1991.

  • KPres||

  • KPres||

    fuck it. you have to download it.

  • Hyperion||

    Unpossable! You made that up!

  • KPres||

    Yeah, nothing says runaway "laissez-faire" capitalism like a country where government controls 40%+ of the economy.

  • Oso Politico||

    Where are the Latin American libertarians? (Other than me, of course)

  • Hyperion||

    There are at least around 600,000 of them in Brazil. I know 3 of them personally.

    Soon, Tulpa will appear to tell you that I made that up. Oh wait, Cytotoxic is already here, so he can tell you.

  • ||

    There's also lots in Chile.

  • EDG reppin' LBC||

    I want my babybackbabybackbabyback
    I want my babybackbabybackbabyback
    ...

  • ||

    I met a few Chilean girls that were exchange students. Economically literate and drop-dead gorgeous too.

  • Hyperion||

    My wife is always talking about how beautiful the Chilean ladies are. That's quite a compliment coming from a Brazilian.

    And yes, most of them are apparently very well educated.

  • Hyperion||

    Yep. Their prez is pretty awesome compared to ours.

    Market friendly President of Chili

  • Hyperion||

    Chile

  • fish_remote||

    Market friendly President of Chili....

    Maybe he left off the "s" and was referring to the restaurant chain.

  • Cytotoxic||

    Chile is already one of the easiest places in the world to start a business as it only costs a few weeks and a few hundred dollars. Soon, there'll be a reform maing it free and doable in a day online. Fuckin A. Chile is becoming our stronghold by the sea.

  • Virginian||

    I've heard a lot of good things about Chile. There's this email newsletter I get called Soverign Man that's all about diversifying your assets overseas, and they cannot talk enough about how awesome Chile is.

  • Hyperion||

    If you don't mind the occasional 8.+ earthquakes, living there might be a good choice. My wife loves Chile. I've never been.

    Buenos Aires, Argentina is also a great city, one of the cheapest cities in the world to live in, beautiful, great climate. Too bad that the current commie regime is fucking it up so bad there. They have went Chavez level stupid there with their current commie in chief.

  • John||

    I have a good friend whose wife is Argentine, a neighbor who is one and another friend who did his Mormon mission there. The consensus is unanimous, Argentina is an awesome country currently being totally destroyed by that nasty, vile bitch who runs it. And my friends come from across the political spectrum. Even liberals agree she is just awful.

  • Cytotoxic||

    It`s not just her. Peronism infected Argentina in the 1920s or so and it hasn`t let go. They get what they deserve.

  • Cytotoxic||

    I can tell you when you're full of shit and need to dry up.

  • Oso Politico||

    Costa Rica: Rigoberto Stewart - co-founder Movimiento Libedrtario

  • Oso Politico||

    Movimiento Libertario - dedos gordos

  • Hyperion||

  • Hyperion||

    Just like everywhere else, it's caught on mostly, so far, with the crackas.

  • Sevo||

    New Rise| 2.23.13 @ 2:45PM |#
    "Most of the "latin libertarians" tend to be white."
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfv3kBzJZgU

  • 34lbs||

    New Rise| 2.23.13 @ 2:45PM |#
    "Most of the "latin libertarians" tend to be white."
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoPPViAnBGw

    FIFY

  • 34lbs||

    "Yeah... Ok..." - Jennifer Lawrence (my crush)

  • Mr Whipple||

    You guys never heard of Nigel Farage?

    Well....he's about as libertarian that you are going to get from the UK.

  • EDG reppin' LBC||

    Explore some different paradigms.

  • EDG reppin' LBC||

    It's not based in reality. It's repetitive. You're boring.

  • Hyperion||

    So, you think Cuba is the place to be, in Latin America?

  • Hyperion||

    But mostly it works rather nicely.

    Then I'm not really sure what that means.

  • ||

    He's referring to his "paradigm" "working rather nicely", except for Cuba.

  • ||

    Yes. It's repetitive. It's been repeated a lot.

  • Cliché Bandit||

    I also think a strong plan and goal should be formed before beginning a new troll. The outcome must be clear in your head in order to appear consistent an coherent enough to pass the cynic meters. I am downgrading this from a C - to a D -. Really, at this level one should be better.

    Oh for the want of a Joe!

  • ||

    All you care about is race. This blog deserves a better class of concern troll.

  • Hyperion||

    There's feminism, socialism

    Together, those 2, throw in some authoritarian nannyism, and a heaping helping of cronyism, make up the modern progressive movement. An evil of the most vile nature.

  • Hyperion||

    The racial aggression against whites, imo, emanates from feminism.

    To the feminists, white males are the root of all oppression. They see everyone, except for white western males, as their comrades being oppressed.

    They are so insane that they think Muslims are feminists, because they are being oppressed by western white males.

  • Hyperion||

    Plenty of blacks couldn't care less about feminism but have a frothing at the mouth hatred of white Americans

    We can thank Democrats for that, race and class warfare are their true foundation.

  • 34lbs||

    Please Hyperion (not New RIse he's retarded), don't juxtapose real Feminists like Sharon Presley, with those super-fucked-up-mysandrists that call themselves feminists, it's like people thinking New Rise or Glenn Beck represents libertarianism... most of the real Feminists are all in countries where woman don't have any real rights, like Egypt, Saudi-Arabia, etc. In countries where they do, some entitlement mentality bitches take up the term and just protest having to pay for their own abortions and shit...

  • Virginian||

    Please Hyperion (not New RIse he's retarded), don't juxtapose real Feminists like Sharon Presley, with those super-fucked-up-mysandrists that call themselves feminists

    Yeah, and the word liberal used to mean laissez-faire and now means socialist control freak. The super fucked up misandrists represent the dominant voice and I'd say the majority of the feminist movement. Feminism, as it currently stands, is a combination of rent seeking, wealth redistribution, and hysterical whining about "privilege". The existence of one or two coins in a septic tank doesn't mean you should go wading for the money.

  • 34lbs||

    Sadly... i agree with you.

  • ||

    Sharon Presley is just another social contructivist idiot. Another person who supports slutism and the mass murder of the unborn. Another person for whom her utopia will never be accomplished until the basic laws of biology are abolished.

  • Sevo||

    "I am downgrading this from a C - to a D -."
    Nope. No courtesy grading here. F

  • vonPeterhof||

    "White military leaders cease power."

    Ah belieb dat wohd be spelt "seize", Massa!

  • Hyperion||

    It's a constant thing at H&R. Sometimes you have to type and post quickly or you missed your opportunity for your post to even be read by anyone.

    There is no edit feature, so once you hit submit, you are fucked if you made a type-o. If there is the least thing that can be construed as comical about it, the merciless horde will pounce upon it and go on a ruthless feeding frenzy.

  • ||

    I never knew "horde" could refer to just a single person.

  • Hyperion||

    If you ever make a type-o here that is comical in its possible interpretation, you will find out what I was talking about. Not a single person.

  • d_remington||

    You mean like mispelling "typo"? Hyuk hyuk hyuk. I mean, unless you think people are making bloodtypes around here and that that's funny some how... Hyuk hyuk hyuk.

  • John||

  • Sidd Finch||

    She's about a 7 in Auburn or Tuscaloosa.

  • The Late P Brooks||

    Mark Kelly is full of shit.

    Ninety-one percent of background checks are completed instantaneously, and they don't lead to a government database. And they work. I passed my background check and got my gun, and since 1994, more than 2 million folks -- among them, criminals and dangerously mentally ill people -- failed their background checks. But we don't know which of those millions just got in their car and drove to a gun show, or home to their computer to go on the Internet -- both places where anyone can buy a gun without a background check.

    No background check on internet sales? Fuck you, you lying cocksucker.

  • Virginian||

    Our magic laws aren't working, so we need to pass more magic laws. Which will work this time. Because we're gonna really believe in them hard this time. Like, really really hard.

  • Hyperion||

    Our magic laws aren't working, so we need to pass more magic laws

    This is the job of politicians. They pass laws that cause more problems than they fix, and then they pass more laws to fix those problems, and in turn, those laws cause even more problems, Ad infinitum.

    They need to insure their own existence.

  • KPres||

    Ninety-one percent of background checks are completed instantaneously, and they don't lead to a government database.

    No, but retailers have to keep the records for 20 years. The "data" exists, it just needs to be put in a "base".

  • Hyperion||

    My question is, how is it constitutional to punish a person 'forever' for a crime. I know a guy who had a felony drug conviction, 25 years ago, and still cannot purchase a gun because of it.

    I also hear of more and more instances of people losing jobs when some background check shows up that they had some minor offense decades before.

    All of this seems like bullshit to me. Disenfranchising citizens for life, because of some offense that was only punishable by no more than a year in prison, or even only a fine. Where is the justice in that?

  • Redmanfms||

    My question is, how is it constitutional to punish a person 'forever' for a crime. I know a guy who had a felony drug conviction, 25 years ago, and still cannot purchase a gun because of it.

    He can petition to have his rights restored.


    I agree with you though, labeling theory is a bitch.

  • Hyperion||

    He can petition to have his rights restored

    He has tried that, unsuccessfully. Any drug related crime here and you are fucked for life in many ways.

  • Redmanfms||

    Where exactly is "here?" I know several felons who had their rights restored on the first go around. The only guy I know who has had difficulties in that regard was convicted of a violent crime (assault with a deadly weapon) and he had to appeal to the governor several times.

    McDonnell (VA) has done quite a bit to streamline the process, it's almost perfunctory for non-violent offenses.

  • Hyperion||

    Indiana, in this case. He spent a lot of money, and finally gave up. And there were no violent crimes involved. Maybe has the wrong lawyer, I don't know.

  • Hyperion||

    I used to live there, my friend still lives there. But by here, I meant America.

  • Hyperion||

    Also, the most important distinction about we Libertarians, is that we don't only care about our own rights, but we care about the rights of others.

    Disenfranchisement is NOT the path to freedom, it's the path to totalitarianism.

  • Redmanfms||

    BTW, I'm no fan of Cyto or Tulpa, but your "'murika sucks" boner is fucking ridiculous.

  • Redmanfms||

    But by here, I meant America.

    Yeah, because there's like totes no difference between like 50 States or anything.

    It's easier in most states for a felon to have his rights restored than it is for someone with no criminal record to buy a firearm legally in Brazil.

    Disenfranchisement is NOT the path to freedom, it's the path to totalitarianism.

    I'm missing the part where I was advocating for disenfranchisement.

  • Hyperion||

    I think that you have taken me out of context. I didn't say you were advocating for anything.

    It's easier in most states for a felon to have his rights restored than it is for someone with no criminal record to buy a firearm legally in Brazil.

    I think that this is false. What experience do you base that on?

    My Murika sucks boner is based upon my belief that if we do bad things, while we are supposed to be the example for the rest of the world, that it is worse. We either need to stop saying that we are the shining light on the hill for freedom, or own up to that responsibility.

  • Virginian||

    ^Exactly. My favorite thing is when you talk to conservatives about this, and they always go "well where is better huh?" and my response is always "More free then China is not why we fought a Revolution and wrote the Constitution."

    Seriously, the fact that on the whole the US is probably the country in the world with the most liberty says more about the sorry state of the rest of the world then it does how awesome we are.

  • Hyperion||

    Our record on spreading 'freedom' around the world has become abysmal, and we are hell bent on bringing that record home to our own citizens.

  • Virginian||

    Well, a big part of that is picking the right countries. Knock the Nazis out, tell Konrad Adenauer to form a new government, and boom no more problems with the Germans. Similar situation with Japan. South Korea, just keep the Reds from taking it over. If we'd have fought the right way, South Vietnam would look like South Korea today. The Philippines turned out alright as well.

    It would be better to have a full throated empire then a half hearted one. We get all the hatred and violence, the money and the blood flows, but it's all for nothing. Iraq might turn out semi decent, for an Arab country. Maybe. But was that worth the cost? Afghanistan is not going to work out.

  • Redmanfms||

    I think that this is false. What experience do you base that on?

    I base it on watching several people submit a single page after a specified period of being "clean" (in the legal sense), waiting no more than 6 weeks, and having their rights restored.

    As I said, States vary. You don't seem to think they do.

    My Murika sucks boner is based upon my belief that if we do bad things, while we are supposed to be the example for the rest of the world, that it is worse.

    What an abjectly asinine metric. By that standard, America has always sucked and will continue to always suck.

    Your examples how much more "free" Brazil is than America are examples of inefficacy of law enforcement, or just patently selective enforcement of laws. They are indicative of a nation without rule of law, not a nation with greater freedom. Which is hardly a condition any libertarian should wish a nation to aspire to emulate.

    We have similar problems in the U.S. (as any nation does, law being dependent upon human action is never free of defect), but nowhere near the extent of most other nations, particularly those in Latin America.

  • The Late P Brooks||

    Also:

    and they don't lead to a government database.

    This is true only because the law specifically forbids them from collecting the information in one place.

    Assuming the Executive branch isn't already just flagrantly disregarding the law, the law can be changed as soon as enough Congressmen think they can get away with it.

    And, of course, as always the implication is that every single private weapon sale will lead directly to multiple murders by insane criminals.

  • John||

    You don't need one central database. You just have a database of databases that searches the various databases it is connected to. That is what IDENT is.

  • The Late P Brooks||

    "Hey Rocky! Watch me pull a rabbit outta muh hat statistic out of my ass!"

    The data around background checks is clear: Up to 40% of gun transfers are made without background checks, and a national survey of inmates found that nearly 80% of those who used a handgun in a crime acquired it without a background check. That tells me that criminals are getting guns, because we're making it too easy.

    Note the complete lack of a meaningful relationship between the "40% o0f transfers" and the "80% of inmates". But to the typical CNN dupe, 80% of all private sales are to criminals.

  • John||

    That tells me that criminals are getting guns, because we're making it too easy.

    This tells me you are a fucking moron who doesn't understand causation.

  • The Late P Brooks||

    Where is the justice in that?

    That's a rhetorical question, right?

    Because there is a preponderance of evidence showing that the people who make and enforce the laws in this country couldn't give a fuck less about "justice".

  • ||

    I don't see how Steve Baker's views are libertarian... they rather seem to want quite a bit of government intervention in the private lives of individuals:

    "I am opposed to the creation of embryos which will be deliberately destroyed.
    I support reducing the time limit within which abortion is permitted.
    I recognise that extreme circumstances, conscience and differences of opinion over the nature of embryos in the earliest stages of development make it impossible to eradicate abortion and related actions completely.
    I am opposed to some of the potential consequences of legalising assisted dying outlined above."

  • John||

    If you think that life begins at conception, the state has a duty to protect embryos just like it does any other human.

  • Cytotoxic||

    If you believe we are all children then the state has the duty to father us all.

    Silly beliefs are forever the fountainhead of statism.

  • Mickey Rat||

    If you believe the Rights of Man are applicable to all human creatures rather than what the State decides then you are a statist.

  • John||

    Yeah, it is so fucking silly to think life begins at conception. Why would anyone think creature that is from human beings and shares all of its DNA would be in fact human?

    Idiotic smugness is the fountainhead of all dumb Libertarianism.

  • Hyperion||

    My daughter is due in 2 weeks for her first child. My first grandchild. She in fact, believes that the baby is already a human with rights.

    I don't have any fucking idea how anyone can believe that a human baby is only some tissue that becomes human once it breathes air for the first time and has magic baby dust sprinkled upon it by the magic liberal baby fairy.

  • ||

    Good thing almost no one thinks that. Try to find someone who thinks a kid that's due in two weeks ISN'T a person. Bringing up birth as if people in favor of legal abortion think that's the cutoff is ridiculous.

  • Hyperion||

    Lots of so called liberals believe just that. There are some that have even written about it, stating that a child up until a certain age, because it has proven to be of any value to the collective, has in fact, not become a person. Yes, they think that killing a child that is already born, is ok, for the good of the collective. Need links?

  • ||

    I never said no one believes that, just that ALMOST NO ONE thinks that. I stand by that. That you can find some horrible people who believe that's true doesn't mean the majority believes that.

  • lap83||

    The pro-choice agenda is all about making the mother of the child more important than the father, IMO. The "choice" part literally means that the mother gets to decide if it's human or not.

  • Hyperion||

    Does that include having the mother pay the biggest part of the support, since she is MORE important? Responsibility has a price, except when you are a proglotard.

  • lap83||

    If you're a prog, responsibility is the price of being the wrong demographic.

  • Rhywun||

    I don't believe there is a "Libertarian" position on abortion - at least, going by the bitch fights that erupt around here every time the topic is raised.

  • Hyperion||

    There isn't, and there doesn't need to be. For the most part we all agree that we own ourselves, and the WOD, the foreign wars of aggression, and cronyism, all need to stop.

  • Rhywun||

    I agree that there doesn't need to be. Libertarianism doesn't have all the answers.

  • lap83||

    There IS a Libertarian position on abortion...and it's mine!!! How dare you!!!! jk

  • JeremyR||

    No.

    But there seem to be two positions

    One that a human being is a human being from the moment the sperm hits the egg.

    The other position is that it's not actually a human being until a certain point defined by the state.

    I think the former definition if closer to libertarianism, since it doesn't really rely on the state to make a decision when a human is a hum and when it's merely a fetus or embryo.

  • Hyperion||

    According to a lot of progs, it's not human until it has become completely detached from the mothers body. Until then it's just some tissue belonging to the mother.

  • 34lbs||

    So do you oppose morning after pills and contraceptives.. it is such a naive position to believe life starts at conception. A better measure is the trimester model.. relating to viability of the fetus..

  • XM||

    6. Barack Obama

    Birth certificates can be forged.

  • John||

    Running around facebook, a picture of a sign that says "background checks? Okay Mr. President lets start with yours".

  • ||

    I'm so happy to see an article like this.

    We're so used to thinking of America as being somehow the last fortress of capitalism and libertarianism, and the road Obama has taken us down makes one despair that the last light of liberty in the world is being snuffed out forever.

    But then we see articles like this and are reminded that there are libertarians out there around the world. The world has been changing and keeps changing and in many places free markets have been advancing. These people are like the light of a candle against the darkness. If only libertarians worldwide could unite and give eachother moral support more often.

  • Gladstone||

    If only libertarians worldwide could unite and give eachother moral support more often.
    That would mean supporting opponents of regimes the US does not like which would make Justin Raimondo and Lew Rockwell cry.

  • ||

    he relative successes of Estonia are in stark contrast to Belarus, a country still ruled by a communist dictatorship

    OK, the problem is that the per capita GDP of Belarus is twice as much as the Ukraine's (on a PPP basis; nominal GDP is 1.5 times as much). Although the Ukraine isn't the most democratic place (Groovus could say something about it), but she certainly isn't a communist dictatorship where half of the working population is still employed by state-run companies, as in Belarus.

    So what provides the Belarus edge? Higher integration with the Russian economy?

  • johnl||

    The UK is a really strange choice for anti-Austerity idiots to point to. Since starting austerity, UK unemployment rose slightly and is now declining, back to where it was when austerity started. While EU unemployment is up 10%.

  • Max||

    Thanks for the article.

    Libertarians with their sister Liberals andfd Greens are kicking butt in every country, and glad REASON is waking up to this. I first learned of some of the people at the LIO groups. It was thrilling to read how LIO activists were going to push for democracy in the Mid-east in 2008 and things would start happening in 2010 then watch it happen before a confused press blaming everything from bread prices to sunspots. But it was annoying to see US Libertarian zines like REASON and other groups analyze without a clue and recycle talking points from conservatives about what was going on.

    For info on people using voluntary Libertarian tools on similar and other issues worldwide, please see the non-partisan Libertarian International Organization @ http://www.Libertarian-International.org ....

  • Calidissident||

    I'm glad to see nobody was fooled by American's latest persona

  • desosa||

    my roomate's mother-in-law makes $70 an hour on the laptop. She has been laid off for 8 months but last month her income was $18584 just working and go to home and tech tab. http://qr.net/j93R

  • WinstonSmith714||

    "The liberty movement goes international."

    it's gone international before America was "discovered".

  • ygsrf||

    Kickoff to you with the online store 2013

  • nike shox homme||

    or our access to resources. Here are a few global freedom-fighters worth keeping an eye on.

  • Ed Ucation||

    What about all the great Austrian economists around the world? Oh, wait...

  • nike shox homme||

    not struggling against the state all by themselves. http://www.flickr.com/photos/92553764@N05/ There are libertarians everywhere, including in countries that do not have comparatively free speech, a culture sympathetic to markets or liberty, or our access to resources. Here are a few global freedom-fighters worth keeping an eye on.

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