Politicians Fiddle While Fiscal Crisis Looms

We must cut spending.

(Page 2 of 2)

Now I’ve cut $329 billion. It’s still not enough.

The military is about a fifth of the budget. I want to support our troops, but we could do that and save money if the administration would shrink the military’s mission to what it is supposed to be: protecting us from external threats. We cannot put America on a road to solvency without cutting military spending, too.

Of course, what will really bankrupt America are entitlements, especially Medicare. That’s the big one.

Why even call it an entitlement? Are we entitled to the money? People think we are, but the money is taken from the taxpayers—by force. The program is totally unsustainable. We now live so long that most of us get back about three times what we paid into these programs.

So we have to raise the retirement age, maybe index it to life spans, and turn Medicare into an insurance plan that sustains itself. That will mean that if I want the latest in high-end medicine, I have to pay for it myself.

We’re on the way to becoming Greece—while our “leaders” stand and watch. A catastrophe is happening before our eyes, but the politicians won’t act to avert it. How did they ever end up with enough power to sink our society?

John Stossel (read his Reason archive) is the host of Stossel, which airs Thursdays on the FOX Business Network at 9 pm ET and is rebroadcast on Saturdays and Sundays at 9pm & midnight ET. Go here for more info.

Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Report abuses.

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    We are like alcoholics who know we have a problem but just can’t resist one last fix. One more infrastructure bill or jobs plan will jumpstart the economy. Then we’ll kick our spending addiction once and for all.

    Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue I couldn't afford.

    Stossel at 9PM. Be there or be statist.

  • Joe M||

    Simple solution: glue subsidies and/or tax credits.

  • Libertarians fiddle||

    Libertarians Fiddle While Ecological Crisis Looms
    We must cut pollution.

    But neither fiscal nor ecological nor social nor any other perspective of the major problems we face are going to be corrected by the POLITicians of the POLIS (city-state.) Just hope the POLICe don't beat you for more business profits.

    Ain't city-statism (civilization) grand? That's the way the POLI roll.

  • POLI = Group over Dunbar's #||

    Mass society, i.e., groups of primates over Dunbar's Number, always act crazy.

    Crazy is how the POLI roll.

    Dunbar, R.I.M. (June 1992). "Neocortex size as a constraint on group size in primates". Journal of Human Evolution 22 (6): 469–493.

  • Crazy is how the POLI roll||

    Richard Manning exposes civilization for what it is: a form of psychosis -- a human zoo.

    Richard Manning on the Psychosis of Civilization
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5iBOXcoP_8

  • Crazy is how Richard Manning..||

    ...rolls. The Psychosis of Primitivists.

  • Schizophrenia = disease of civ||

    Schizophrenia and civilization
    E. Fuller Torrey, MD
    Macmillan Education
    http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/.....o=heb02208

  • WI = Preachy Guilt Peddler||

    A sanctimonious guilt purveyor laying guilt trips on the non-culpable while never pointing the finger at the truly guilty.

  • Hey, Primitard,||

  • I own the book.||

    Yep, and nuclear weapons are oh-so peaceful.

    You should take a look, and compare it to other works, especially those listed in the references of On the Origins of War by John Zerzan.

    Lately, there's been a bunch of city-Statist apologies coming out, in response to what we've learned out our Non-State past.

    Do you believe everything out of Harvard? Do you think Nuclear Weapons aren't a threat of violence?

    But anyway, keep studying. That's good.

  • WI beating the straw man||

    Lately, there's been a bunch of anarcho-primitivist apologists coming out, in response to the refutations of their bullshit.

    Do you believe everything out of Zerzan's ass?

  • No. But look at his references||

    ...and study for yourself.

    Too hard?

  • Too Hard??!??||

    Why study "anti-state" references by TENured State Employees dependent on a GOVT salaries?

  • Brother Grimm||

    No. Not a "bunch." Just one who posts responces to his own posts to make it look like there are multiple people that are this batshit crazy.

  • ||

    FOR FUCK'S SAKE, PLEASE STOP FEEDING THE DAMNED TROLLS!!!

  • CityState = Increased Violence||

    This is "trolling?" Weird. I thought you were against city-Statist violence. You're not?

  • WI = Tax Collector for EcoCops||

    May I proceed uninterrupted? No, you must pay a toll and if you don't hand it over we will use violence to seize it.

  • Mike M.||

    Tell us all the truth: what are you eating right now?

  • If Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn...||

    ...ate the prison food, why can't I?

    Does my eating prison food absolve the prisonkeeper of moral responsibility for his agricultural city-Statist aggression?

    You'd make a great guard at Guantanamo. Hey, filthy raghead, tell us all the truth: what are you eating right now?

  • More on "Prison Food"||

    “The world of the Takers is one vast prison, and except for a handful of Leavers scattered across the world, the entire human race is now inside that prison. Naturally a prison must have a prison industry. It helps to keep the inmates busy. It takes their minds off the boredom and futility of their lives. Our prison industry? Consuming the world.” ~Daniel Quinn

    “You’ll know you’re among the people of your culture if the food is all owned, if it’s all under lock and key. But food was once no more owned than the air or the sunshine are owned. No other culture in history has ever put food under lock and key—and putting it there is the cornerstone of your economy, because if the food wasn’t under lock and key, who would work? If it’s all owned, if you want some, you’ll have to buy it.” ~Daniel Quinn

  • Shut Up||

    You stupid cow.

  • rather||

    Moo!

  • Appeals to Authority...||

    ...are how WI rolls.

  • WI rolls w/ better references ||

  • NotSure||

    There are plenty of places in the world where people hunt for their food, nobody is stopping you from doing the same, yet you have never hunted a day in your life.

    Food was not owned ??? So if you spent the whole day stalking your prey and then I came along in the end you will have no problem giving it all to me then ?

  • Bands/Tribes=Non-State society||

    There are plenty of places in the world where people hunt for their food

    Wrong, libertard.

    "Today less than 0.001 per cent of the world's people live outside of the direct control of state societies."

    ~Elman R. Service (1975), Origins of the State and Civilization: The Process of Cultural Evolution. New York: Norton.
    * NON-STATE AND STATE SOCIETIES
    http://faculty.smu.edu/rkemper.....ieties.pdf

    That was in 1975. Add a few more zeros now. www.uncontactedtribes.org

  • NotSure||

    You can buy some land to hunt on, nobody is stopping you.

    Also please explain what you will do if I take your prey you hunted, after all it is not own by you.

  • Property Taxes Hunting License||

    "Nobody's stopping you."

    You sound like Harry Reid now. I mean, I can just go hunt and gather all voluntary like, eh? LOL

    Paying income tax in America is Voluntary
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7mRSI8yWwg

  • NotSure||

    What can of logic is that ? You can buy land to hunt, there are many nut cases like you living completely off the land with zero agriculture.

  • Quit whining and go 2 Somalia||

    Why are you here complaining about government regulation? Huh?

    REGULATION VACATION CELEBRATION!
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QDv4sYwjO0

    Lest we be accused of misrepresenting their views, actual Libertarians have been kicking around this take on Somalia with a straight face for some time now. No shit:
    mises.org/story/2066

    A more nuanced completely insane view is that Somalia has been awesome-ized by Anarchism, not Libertarianism.
    reason.com/blog/show/117519.html

  • Quit whining and go fuck off||

    Why are you a mendacious, lying prick?

    The Darker Side of the "Original Affluent Society"

  • Oh wow. They work 40 hours.||

    You work far more that than, if you honestly including all the tasks for which David Kaplan counts as "work" in primitive societies.

    But most "work" to primitives is what we today consider play. People take off "work" to go "hunt" and "fish" as enjoyment.

    Sorry, try again.

  • WI can't stand...||

    ...anything that objects to his primitivist religion.

  • Anthropology isn't a religion||

    Sorry, Try Again.

  • Primitivism...||

    ...is pseudo-anthropology. Pretty damn close to a religion.

    Try again.

  • To Re-Liege is to Re-Connect||

    In that context, it is.

    But then, that's better than being disconnected from the Home Planet like yourself, just as Christians are, thinking that nature an evil place that needs "fixed."

  • WI = Fake Nature Nut||

    May I prick Mother Earth and exploit her gifts? Fuck NO says WI, call the EnviroPOLIce.....Raise TOLLs to support more POLIce

  • ||

    Actually, Somalia's been Santorumized.

  • ||

    I was there (Berberra)in 1982. The beaches were beautiful. No trash or plastic, just the occaisional goat skull.

  • Fat Indian||

    We are the 0.001 percent!

  • HAHAH||

    Entrepreneur: "Hey, Tribal Officer, may I set up a New Bright Casino on vacant land over yonder?"

    Tribal Chiefs: "No way -- GAMBLE LOCKDOWN!"

  • WI = Tax Collector for EcoCops||

    WI supports door-busting IRS agents grabbing your belongings for the WI Mobster Corps

  • WI = Anti-PRIVacy||

    Cannot stand DISsent. Loves GOVT use of power to suppress independent minded persons.

  • ||

    Put down that glue bag and start panhandling.

  • Obama||

    "Stossel at 9PM. Be there or be statist."
    You better watch him while you can. The fucks at Fox will fix him like they did the Judge.

  • ||

    Your comment was the first that I'd heard that they canceled "Freedom Watch" (I've since Googled it). That's a huge bummer! I guess he just wasn't statist enough for Fox. Just when I was starting to think there was a big libertarian wing breaking over at Fox (Stossel, Napalitano, and Red Eye).

  • Sam Grove||

    Is that Skeletor disguised as Nancy Pelosi?

  • Sparky||

    Nevermind Nancy, WTF is that thing behind her?

  • ||

    I had the same reaction! I would hate to meet that creature in a dark alley.

  • Sophomoric||

    Are all Fibertarians at a third grade social level of behavior?

  • Sparky||

    Nope, just the really smart ones.

  • ||

    sense of humor, how does it work again?

  • Weasel Words||

    Marge, don't discourage the boy! Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals! Except the weasel. ~Homer Simpson

  • NotSure||

    This coming from the guy calling people "fibertarians", why you are the very embodiment of maturity.

  • It was the warm reception.||

    I just can't help myself.

  • ||

    I think you have to drop a rock on someone's head.

  • Sam Grove||

    A sense of humor is an aspect of intelligence.

  • Sam Grove sucks his mom's dick||

    everybody laugh now!!!!

    ha!

    ha!

    ha!

  • People only laugh at you, WI||

  • ha! ha! ha!||

    Funny one!

  • Sam Grove||

    Making fun of the dead is not that funny.

  • Sam Grove||

    Making bad jokes is not a sign of humor.

  • Idiotic||

    Are all Primitards as dumb as you?

  • Bill||

    Me too. Attack of the Laughing Zombies?

    That is a seriously creepy photo.

  • ||

    I believe it's Rosa DeLauro.

  • Invisible Finger||

    I thought it was Keith Richards.

  • Ice Nine||

    No, Skeletor is undisguised and standing behind Pelosi.

  • ||

    That's Ron Wood, isn't it?

  • ||

    with or without the wig?

  • Paul||

    Holy shit, that was exactly what I thought when I saw that picture.

  • ||

    That's because it's Ron Wood.

  • Ron Wood||

    That's low, you assholes.

  • ||

    See? It's him.

    I love the Stones, so no insult. Keith Richards is proof that there are, in fact, undead.

  • Sam Grove||

    Maybe they are having a laugh over the creation of the line "You have to pass it to find out what's in it"

  • Empress McNastyPants||

    Yeah, that wrinkly meat puppet is masquerading as a politician.

  • Sparky||

    How did they ever end up with enough power to sink our society?

    We* gave it to them with a smile on our* face, glad to be rid of such a heavy burden.

    * - The voting populace. You know, the people who vote for a guy based on how he looks or how good at speaking he is.

  • wareagle||

    like the saying goes: a govt that robs Peter to give to Paul can always count on the support of Paul. We are fast approaching the point when the Pauls outnumber the Peters.

  • The RIGHT to TAKE||

    You're right on that. But a question:

    Who is Peter and who is Paul in this honest assessment of white calvinist/capitalist sensibilities?

    "[The Native Americans] didn't have any rights to the land ... Any white person who brought the element of civilization had THE RIGHT TO TAKE over this continent."

    ~Ayn Rand, US Military Academy at West Point, March 6, 1974

  • wareagle||

    according to Obama, Peter is anyone NOT dependent on the govt for support. Has nothing to do with being white. Plenty of black, hispanic, and asian Peters who are being looted, and plenty of white Pauls eagerly taking.

    As to the Indians, they lost. Simple as that. History is full of similar occurrences, but only theirs gets the romanticized treatment. As it is, the Indians were not much different from modern-day Afghanis - a bunch of warring tribes confined inside of a common border.

  • Privation Property need Gov't||

    Without Gov't, there would be no Land enTITLEment.

    "Agriculture creates government." ~Richard Manning, Against the Grain, p.73

  • fish||

    Dude?! How bout some new material? You're reruns are getting boring.

    Hows the GaMBOLing GOing?

  • fish||

    Shit! "Your" reruns.....

  • No reruns with libertards.||

    All original material:

    DA GUMMIT IS EVHOL!

    What's your encore?

  • fish||

    All original material:

    Nahh you post your "kemper" link everytime you drag your fat carcass to the keyboard. I want my new White Idiot fresh for 2012 material. Get typing fatboy!

  • quit making stupid errors...||

    ...that reference addresses, and I'll quit posting it.

    Deal?

  • Bill||

    And believe it or not, the government lied to the Indians and broke its contracts with them.

  • Ag-City-Statism is a Con-game||

    Of course government lies.

  • Anti-PRIV = Anti-Privacy||

    call the mind cops. control and spy on the internet.

  • The Rape Victim, they lost.||

    Simple as that. ~War"Monger"Eagle

    Yes, victims of aggression lose. Whodathunkit?

    Does that make aggression right? In a warmonger's mind, apparently so.

  • wareagle||

    congrats on the straw man argument, Barry. I drew a simple conclusion - two sides fought, one won, therefore the other lost. You are the one making moral judgments.

  • Let's draw a simple conclusion||

    You too are a loser. How's that "Free Statism" working out for you?

  • Pale Injun||

    Straw mans, appeals to authority, outright lies. It's how I roll.

  • Better References...||

    ...compared to your no references.

  • Pale Injun||

    See, I told you I am liar!

  • Double D||

    @ Wareagle. ^^THIS!!^^

  • White Idiot||

    I'm dumb enough to believe that I have you Libertarians convinced that I'm something other than an apoligist for Communism. Har har.

  • Marx-Mises Axis of Evil||

    Communism and Capitalism are both slightly different political manifestations of the Agricultural City-State.

    Stalin killed Siberian aborigines with as much glee as Americans did in North America.

    "Agriculture creates government." ~Richard Manning, Against the Grain, p.73

  • Americans||

    No, I think we were much more gleeful. After all, we got North Americ; Stalin only got Siberia.

  • Huh?||

    Americans killed Siberian aborigines in North America... I'm so fucking confused. Is it just me or does this troll make your head hurt, too?

  • Huh. Indians = Aboriginal. ||

    Now why was that so hard, Libertard?

  • Huh. Indians = Aboriginal. ||

    Oh god, this cheesecake is DELICIOUS--hey! get the fuck away from my sesame chicken, Libertards!

  • WI = False Comparison Faker||

    Rocks are not pillows except in WI world.

  • ||

    Speaking ability? Then I nominate Ozzie Osborne.

  • sarcasmic||

    Spending cuts are great as long as nobody loses a check or a job.

  • ||

    Of that $37,900:

    You're giving $10,000 to grandma to buy a hover round and go on bus trips to Indian casinos, and

    Spending $7,500 on top of the line Benelli shotguns because you don't like the look of that brown guy a couple blocks over, plus your French and German cousins are too busy vacationing to buy new guns because theirs brok, plus guns are icky and civilized people shouldn't own any and there should be a law.

  • ||

    "And then he said, why should Congress get to decide how much money I should make, or what I eat or how I travel!"

  • Yeah||

    ^Post of the day.

  • Tman||

    Herbert Stein's law-(paraphrased) "Things that can’t go on forever, don’t."

  • ||

    If I didn't have kids, I would be voting a straight Democrat ticket and eagerly anticipating the apocalypse.

  • ||

    I am starting to think that that is the only way that things will change. That it will take a full-on collapse because no one is willing to make the changes needed to avoid it.

  • sarcasmic||

    I'm afraid that what arises from the ashes will be worse.

  • Collapse is economizing||

    Thesis #20: Collapse is an economizing process.
    by Jason Godesky
    http://rewild.info/anthropik/thirty/index.html

  • White Idiot||

    There is a facebook page for me and my profile pic looks like I'm a bloated goat.

  • Best libertard retort, ever!||

    Some day, you'll learn some 4th grade taunts.

  • Keep Trying||

    You wouldn't understand them so what would be the point?

  • ||

    It has a facebook page?I thought only real people could have those.Does each personality have its own page or are they bundled?

  • Wide Indian||

    The Republic of Gambol will still have Pizza Hut, right?

  • Paleo diet||

    Better.

    When I say hunter gatherers, you think nasty, brutish and short, and that's a misconception that's kept us in an exhausting race we can't win for 10,000 years.

    They're actually generally well fed, have more time off, and better sex lives than most of us protestant work ethic fools.

    Hunter Gatherers And The Golden Age Of Man
    www.raw-food-health.net/HunterGatherers.html

  • Just keep posting...||

    ...your bullshit.

    The Darker Side of the "Original Affluent Society"

    (Look it up, Primitard)

    Intellectual checkmate, indeed.

  • I've read it, Libertard.||

    Have you? Do you even know what it's about? Come back when you do, and make your first move. (You can't say "checkmate" without making a move, Libertard. Weird rules, there.)

  • I've read it, Libertard.||

    Grrglemmphchocolatepierrmphl.

  • ||

    Worse? It will be an awesome combination of Road Warrior, Escape From New York, Red Dawn, and every other cool survival movie.

  • jacob the barbarian||

    What will rise from the ashes will be worse. The natural state is barbarism where the strong raid, rape, and enslave the weak.

    White Idiot a.k.a Fat Barry is going to wind up as someone's squealing bitch OR as dinner because when cannibalism was a fact of life in hunter gatherer societies.

    To say it is going to suck is akin to calling gang rape a minor social deviation. The only plus side is the likes of Fat Barry are going to get creamed.

  • Snake Plissken||

    "The President's dead somebody ate him for dinner!"

  • natural state = barbarism? LOL||

    More city-Statist bullshit propaganda that is screeching, basically: WE NEED GOVERNMENT!

    LOL!!! At reason, as it is at free republic and huffpo!!! All the same!!!

    Reality:

    "Warfare,immorality, vice, polygyny, slavery, and the subjection of women seem to be absent amongour gatherer-hunter ancestors."

    On the Origins of War
    by John Zerzan
    www.scribd.com/doc/20298938/Ze.....ins-of-War

  • Murray Bookchin||

    John Zerzan is nuts!

    Mystifying the Primitive

    In Zerzanian paleoanthropology, early hominids or humans could adopt or reject vital cultural traits like speech with sublime wisdom, the way monks take vows of silence.

    But once the vow of silence was broken, everything went wrong! For reasons known only to God and Zerzan.

    There is a certain splendor in this claptrap that is truly arresting. Significantly different epochs, hominid and/or human species, and ecological and technological situations are all swept up together into a shared life 'within the bounds of nature.' Zerzan's simplification of the highly complex dialectic between humans and nonhuman nature reveals a mentality so reductionist and simplistic that one is obliged to stand before it in awe.

  • jacob the barbarian||

    I guess all them stone age human bones with butchering marks does not compute for Fat Barry a.k.a. White Idiot. Not to mention the prehistoric bones that show violent death or the alpine ice mummy with the arrow wound in his back.

    Yup. Evidence! How does that work?!?

  • WI...||

    ...will continue to believe in myth. Anyone who believes in a "golden age" or "utopia" can't be taken seriously.

  • Capitalism, the Unknown Ideal||

    Can't be taken seriously.

  • ||

    That's right Team BLUE shill, capitalism is bad, just look at all those wonderful experiments in socialism have worked out just wonderfully! For instance:
    USSR : 80M
    PRC : 102M
    Cambodia : 3M

    all told 300M+ where killed by all those wonderful socialist 'experiments' back in the 20th century.

    These countries where left destitute by their socialist practices. The PRC now has a freer market than we do. Guess what, they are getting rich through capitalism.

  • Untermensch||

    It would be equally true if you wrote:

    If I didn't have kids, I would be voting a straight Republican ticket and eagerly anticipating the apocalypse.

    They aren't doing anything differently, just shuffling chairs around on the deck of the Titanic.

  • ||

    +1.

    Has anyone heard Romney, Santorum, or Gingrich specify exactly what, if anything, they would actually cut?

  • Paul||

    Foreign aid!

  • BC||

    Redundancy and waste!

  • ||

    The Bill of Rights!

  • ||

    Old Soldier |2.23.12 @ 12:23PM|#
    If I didn't have kids, I would be voting a straight Democrat ticket and eagerly anticipating the apocalypse.

    +1

  • rather||

    Imagine this family budget:

    Last year, you earned $24,700. But you spent $37,900, incurring $13,300 in debt, and you were already $153,500 in debt.

    So you say, “I promise I’ll spend $300 less this year!”

    Imagine if you lifted something from the internet and didn't quote the author....

  • sarcasmic||

    Imagine if you had the math skills of a third grader.

    Fractions. How do they work?

  • MNG||

    It's not entirely clear that "We must cut." If you look at federal deficets over modern history, as % of GDP, they don't get crazy high in times of big government per se, but in times of big government + tax cuts.

    So it's not all that clear, and that is part of what makes it "tough."

    Reverse it: imagine how "tough" it is for libertarians to make the choice to raise revenue in some way...

  • wareagle||

    It's not entirely clear that "We must cut."
    -----------
    it is, however, entirely clear that annual increases as the norm CANNOT continue. There is no law that says every federal agency has the right to anticipate a 5-8% budget increase just because the calendar has turned. Even Stossel knows that if spending was simply frozen the situation would markedly improve.

  • ||

    But that would be a $6.2T "cut" on top of the $1.2T cut planned during the debt ceiling deal**. You're mean! I bet you want us all eating dog food or resorting to cannibalism!

    **I'm not kidding those are approximately the numbers that a freeze would "save" through 2021. Of course, we know that not even the $1.2T is going to get cut.

  • Number 7||

    raising taxes is just like feeding the bears, don't do it, nothing good will come of it.

  • Rev. Blue Moon ||

    I could have sworn that I read somewhere that government cannot collect more than 17% of GDP...gosh, you would have thought that "tax increases" had been addressed already.

  • ||

    Since we decided big government was the way to go (around 1930), revenue as % of GDP has bounced around between 15 and 20% without much regard to tax rates.

    http://nationalpriorities.org/.....-perc-gdp/

  • ChrisO||

    Tax increases couldn't fund all this crap.

    Raise rates high enough and increase the number of taxable items/transactions, and all you do is force capital flight abroad and encourage an underground economy.

  • Night Elf Mohawk||

    It's not entirely clear that "We must cut."

    Well, when every $1 of revenue results in > $1 of new spending, it's tough to see how more revenue is the answer.

  • Tony||

    MNG is right, we just need to raise taxes to make sure the wealthy are paying their fair share. It's childish to not even consider increasing revenues.

  • Night Elf Mohawk||

    What's the "fair share" of the 49.5% who pay precisely dick, or even less if they have refundable credits?

    What is the "fair share" of total personal federal income tax paid that, say, the top 1%, 5%, and 10% should be paying in your world?

  • Tony||

    I AM TEH 99%

  • sarcasmic||

    We know the rich don't pay their "fair share" by the fact that they are rich.

    If they paid their "fair share" then they wouldn't be rich, now would they?

    To think this way, it helps to have no understanding of the distinction between money and wealth.

  • Tony||

    THIS.

  • Tony||

    Those people do in fact pay taxes - they pay FICA, Medicare, property taxes, sales taxes, gasoline taxes, etc. So it is a false meme to claim they don't contribute. And what is so wrong about those who have more being able to contribute more, to pay for the society that allows them to succeed?

  • Night Elf Mohawk||

    What is the "fair share" of total personal federal income tax paid that, say, the top 1%, 5%, and 10% should be paying in your world?

  • Tony||

    Whatever it takes to ensure everyone has access to food, education, healthcare, housing and a social safety net. Why is that so difficult?

  • Double D||

    OK, how has all this worked out so far? Increasing federal expenditures in education has done NOTHING. Housing? Pat the government on the back for creating hellholes of misery and crime. Need I go on? The expenses continue to increase, and it isn't getting any better. What makes you think it's a good idea to follow up failure by throwing good money after bad? Eventually, you should to acknowledge failure and more on. Of course, that is the rational response. The statist response is to triple down on stupid.

  • fish||

    The statist response is to triple down on stupid.

    Well that leads to so many more of those cubicle type jobs at sterile government buildings that Sockpuppet Tony aspires to when he's not "doing english"! A win-win!

  • Who isn't a city-Statist here?||

    LOLOL

  • Tony||

    So how are poor people supposed to get educated in libertarian-land, if the government doesn't provide schools? Do you expect them to live in cardboard boxes so you don't have to contribute to government-subsidized housing for the poor? And I always thought Dickens was just exagerating about the privileged class.

  • Double D||

    Well, let's see...how about let states and communities work that out, and the feds do more constitutional stuff instead?

  • ||

    So how are poor people supposed to get educated in libertarian-land, if the government doesn't provide schools?

    No one said there would be no schools, just more choices and less government, but choices scare you and your Progressive buddies....?

  • fish||

    Do you expect them to live in cardboard boxes so you don't have to contribute to government-subsidized housing for the poor?

    So that's what it's all about? I knew eventually it would come down to protecting your ability to "do english" with government funds.

  • Red Rocks Rockin ||

    So how are poor people supposed to get educated in libertarian-land, if the government doesn't provide schools?

    The same way they did before the government provided schools, you moron. You honestly think education didn't exist before Dewey and Addams?

  • ||

    It's a good idea because I get a cut of everything that is spent.

  • ||

    So, all of it, then.

  • wareagle||

    ah, there it is: the "right" to food, housing, and other people's money. Curious that nowhere is the 'right' to a job mentioned. Why is that?

  • ||

    nowhere is the 'right' to a job mentioned. Why is that

    Silly that is what the "rich" people are for, they work and give to the more"needy"....Remember?

  • Bill||

    Also, the right to a DVD player. Kids need those to learn properly. And they need straight teeth or else people might make fun of them and that would impede their learnin too!

  • ||

    Because no one has enough money to pay for all that.

  • Tony||

    I don't care how high the tax rates are, as long as the rich are getting raped in the process.

  • ||

    @wareagle below. Society does cause people to fail. Long prison sentences and criminal record for consensual behavior (WOD) that takes away a breadwinner and leaves his offspring to survive by any means possible might be a factor in a few instances.

  • wareagle||

    if society "allows" the evil filthy putrid rich to succeed, does it cause the moochers to fail, too? Since you demand that the well off contribute more, shouldn't the 49% start contributing something?

  • Tony||

    Civilized society doesn't cause the poor to fail, their failure is caused by discrimination and exploitation by the privileged classes. And as I explained above, they do in fact contribute through various taxes.

  • NotSure||

    How does someone who has never worked contribute taxes ? You give the guy money to buy food, so what if the food is taxed ? The money he earned was all tax money in the first place ?

  • Tony||

    So you're saying poor people are just lazy, and deserve to starve? I sincerely hope you never fall on hard times.

  • wareagle||

    not all poor are lazy, but a good many are where they are as the result of the choices and decisions THEY made, not anything that was foisted on them by anyone else. This country is ate up with rags-to-riches tales and even more full of rags-to-comfort stories. Only liberals believe those born into poverty are too stupid to climb out of it.

  • Tony||

    No, just the blacks and hispanics.

    Asians are plenty smart enough to climb out of poverty without governement assistance.

  • Tony||

    ^spoof^

  • Spoofey||

    ^Tony^

  • NotSure||

    Not the question I asked, a really lame strawman though, if somebody gets free stuff from the government for doing nothing, he does not pay tax no matter how many levels of indirection you want to obfuscate it with.

    Oh and yes there really lazy people, you are more than welcome to work in soup kitchens or donate money for them, nobody stops you from doing so.

  • ||

    I sincerely hope you never fall on hard times.

    And if I do I have family and friends that I can lean on. If you dont that is your problem.

  • Joe||

    Speaking to the numbers, the poor do worrk a much shorter work week, on average, then people in the other income brackets. So yes, lack of work is one problem.

  • ||

    You never give up and learn, do you?

    No one has a "right" to MY earnings just beacuse they have a percieved "need" that "seems" to be more important than mine.

    Just who decides what everyones needs are Tony......Will that be your job?

  • ||

    From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs. Isn't that in the Costitution somewhere? By the way, I need a new Corvette.

  • ||

    *Constitution

  • Tony||

    If you balk at raising taxes even one penny on the dollar, you're a racist.

  • NotSure||

    How gracious of them, people who never worked a day in their lives "allowed" others to succeed, how exactly does doing nothing contribute to the success of others ?

  • Matrix||

    Sales taxes, property taxes, and some of the gasoline taxes go to the state, so STFU

  • ||

    They pay FICA and Medicare - IF they work.
    They pay property taxes - IF they don't live in government subsidized housing.
    They do probably pay sales taxes and gas taxes, but when you figure that quite a few of them get various checks and subsidies from the government (including my favorite, the euphemistically named EARNED income credit) for something like 25% of the US population government is a SOURCE of money. They get more money FROM government than they contribute. And that needs to stop.

  • Muad Dib||

    Tony is a brainless douche.

  • WTF||

    Tony is a spoof/sockpuppet.

  • ||

    Agreed,I don't think the real Tony exists anymore,(if he ever truly did)other than as an online Meme/Spoof/Sockpuppet.

  • Tony||

    The above conversation was entirely with a spoofer.

  • ||

    They all are. Some one here once made the mistake of telling him"I think therefore I am."Which produced the following chain of unfortunate events in the Real Tonys mind 1).....?, 2)...LIGHTBULB!, 3)......Oh Shit!!!, 4)...*poof*..., 5) House shaken by earsplitting implosion as air rushes in to fill the very substantial resulting vacuum.

  • ||

    I am Tony.

  • jacob the barbarian||

    In comparison to WI he is a brain surgeon

  • ||

    Because brian surgery is a tool of the argicultural city state and thier fancy schmancy schools and stuff.
    WI would just shake a bag of bones and rocks at your brain tumor and it would get better...

  • Civilization makes us sick||

    "The earliest visible populations of prehistory nonetheless do surprisingly well if we compare them to the actual record of human history rather than to our romantic images of civilized progress. Civilization has not been as successful in guaranteeing human well-being as we like to believe, at least for most of our history. Apparently, improvements in technology and organization have not entirely offset the demands of increasing population; too many of the patterns and activities of civilized lifestyles have generated costs as well as benefits."

    Health and the Rise of Civilization
    Mark Nathan Cohen
    Yale University Press
    www.primitivism.com/health-civilization.htm

    Thesis #9: Agriculture is difficult, dangerous and unhealthy.
    Thesis #21: Civilization makes us sick.
    Thesis #22: Civilization has no monopoly on medicine.
    http://rewild.info/anthropik/thirty/

  • ||

    Jason, Jason, Jason. You need a new look.
    http://chicago2011.drupal.org/user/jefgodesky
    interesting color hair. The cut ... epic fail!

    So the metro dude is the font of all the wisdom we call White Idiot?

    Say it is not so.

    Can you so three pushups fat boy?

  • Paul||

    MNG is right, we just need to raise taxes to make sure the wealthy are paying their fair share. It's childish to not even consider increasing revenues.

    An increase of revenues is an increase of spending.

  • ||

    It's not entirely clear that "We must cut."

    Yes, it is. Right now, federal spending is around 24 - 25% of GDP. We know the feds can't extract more than 20% of GDP in taxes. So, even assuming maximum tax revenue, with no cuts we would have a deficit of 4 - 5% of GDP, and a national debt that grows by that much every year.

    Now, you can grow your way out of debt (in theory) as long as your economy is growing faster than the government budget. That isn't happening, and won't happen, either. Optimistically, the economy will grow at 3%/year on average. However, total federal outlays have been increasing at rates higher than that, and the rate of increase has been increasing.

    You can't tax your way out of it. You can't grow your way out of it.

    You. Have. To. Cut.

  • ||

    You can't tax your way out of it. You can't grow your way out of it.

    You. Have. To. Cut.

    Awwwww you just made Tony cry.

  • BC||

    "Raise revenue" = government stealing more money from productive people.

    So, yeah, it's hard for libertarians to make the choice to do that. It's an outgrowth of being burdened with principles.

  • ||

    imagine how "tough" it is for libertarians to make the choice to raise revenue in some way...

    Fucking intellectual consistency- how does it work?

  • Rev. Blue Moon ||

    Look at who you're asking.

  • MNG||

    I mean, it's really ironic for libertarians to sit around and say "why can't these statists make the tough choice of cutting government spending!" It would be just as, no, more, easy for them to say "why can't these libertarians make the tough choice of increasng government revenue?"

    Of course most libertarians would answer that question by changing the subject ("because that is stealing!" or something). But that demonstrates exactly what I'm talking about: things like these are tough because there are other values and beliefs involved that often put people at different premises and axioms altogether.

  • wareagle||

    because increasing govt revenue pretends that the problem is not enough revenue, which is bullshit. How about govt make the sane choice of simply not increasing spending, sort of like anyone else who is not anticipating added revenue does.

    Your argument screams of "if we only spent more", as though that has ever solved anything. Govt has far more than enough revenue to do the things it is supposed to do. But, that's the problem; the list of things to do keeps growing. The only thing that changes is what the money is spent for.

  • ||

    Might have to increase tax revenue and cut services.

  • MNG||

    You see my beliefs and values are to give people lots of free stuff for doing nothing.

  • sarcasmic||

    Not taking is giving.

    Not giving is taking.

    There is no conflict between protecting the right to private property, and protecting the claim to the property of others.

  • NotSure||

    It really is that bad, I remember Tony calling people who "whine" about tax increases freeloaders, and the people who actually pay no tax are the victims of the rich people who somehow took their wealth. When someone asked how they stole their wealth he mysteriously vanished.

  • sarcasmic||

    Work is hard. Plunder is easy.

  • Double D||

    You solved the puzzle!

  • sarcasmic||

    It's even easier when you get the folks who are duty bound to punish those who plunder, to commit plunder on your behalf!

  • Tony||

    They stole their wealth via public policy, just like you accuse poor people of doing. Only I make sense because it's blindingly obvious that the wealthy have more influence over public policy than the poor.

    This rational, obvious observation is smeared as some kind of emotional problem, the hallmark of not having an argument. The reality is you guys defend wealth no matter how it was acquired, and attack what little wealth there is among the poor. You are the ones with the disturbing psychological issues.

  • Tony||

    Whereas we liberals despise wealth no matter how it was acquired.

  • Lurker Jack||

    That was near Randian, Tony.

  • Drax the Destroyer||

    All the more reason to limit the power and money wielded by the FUCKERS WITH TANKS AND AIRCRAFT CARRIERS at their beck and call who have consistently received disease-free hookers from your hated rich. There aren't too many (none?) billionaires/corporations with access to daisy cutters, F-22s, and nuclear weapons (let alone endless throngs of pointless make-"work"/economically destructive bureaucracies). That shit is only affordable via community rape...I mean ...taxes, yeah...that's what I meant.

  • Matrix||

    Increasing government revenue only encourages the beast to consume and shit more, not less. Increasing revenue without a drastic cut in spending will only cause more spending.

  • Paul||

    "why can't these libertarians make the tough choice of increasng government revenue?"

    I'm not sure what your point is, here, MNG. Increasing revenue is never a tough issue. It's always the easy issue. I'd spend the next 45 minutes researching and linking the number of bond issues that I'm paying on just in my local area... bond issues which were supposed to expire years ago because the original program was long paid for, but now the bond is simply a general revenue device.

    I'd also spend that next 45 minutes researching the percentage of bond issues that pass vs. those that fail and show you that the overwhelming majority of them pass.

    But I'll trust that you'll take my word for it that most do pass, and pass easily.

    So I'm not sure where this "tough decision to raise revenues" thing is coming from.

  • BC||

    It's not "changing the subject", you unbelievable asshole. It's pointing out the basic fact that raising revenue and spending less aren't moral equivalents.

  • Jessie||

    This website is so ridiculous. "Let's just cut everything and let everyone fend for themselves!"

    Well I guess I'd be for that too if I were already in a privileged position. Being white and male wouldn't hurt either.

  • Tman||

    I thought I told you to go make me a sammich.

  • Jessie||

    I'll make sure there's no pork in it, wouldn't want you to be a cannibal.

  • Rev. Blue Moon ||

    "You're a towel!"

  • Tman||

    "Man, I don't know WHAT'S going on."

  • Jessie||

    Neither do I.

  • Jessie||

    Whatever it is, I'm sure it's racist and sexist, though!

  • jacob the barbarian||

    don't forget the Joos

  • Night Elf Mohawk||

    Mmm, a wonderful, magical animal. Make mine with some grilled pork loin.

  • Rev. Blue Moon ||

    I assume already you're white. Although I am sure you wish you weren't.

  • Tonio||

    Nice.

  • Sparky||

    Look everyone, Jessie is back to decry white male privilege.

    Tell me Jessie, is being a white male all it takes to be privileged or does there need to be something else too?

  • Tony||

    No, nothing else. If you're a white male the secret club just hands you the money and privilege.

  • Tony||

    Sometimes I "service" club members. Just to be close to the action.

  • wareagle||

    so if you're non-white and well off, that still hurts? Just stop, unless you can - with a straight face - justify nearly $4 freaking trillion.

  • ChrisO||

    That's right, because clearly people can't fend for themselves. After all, we as a people were magically beamed down here in 1964 along with our welfare state.

  • Blacksmithking||

    If government made shoes, there'd be people whining that, without government, we'd all go barefoot.

  • NotSure||

    Speaking of shoes, I remember reading an old article claiming how a single state run shoe factory could make all the shoes to supply the entire world, serious.

  • ||

    Of course, cardboard shoes wouldn't last too long.

  • ||

    and be pregnant.

  • sarcasmic||

    That's right, because clearly people can't aren't allowed to fend for themselves.

    ftfy

    A repeal of the welfare state without a repeal of the regulatory state would be a disaster.

  • Loki||

    we as a people were magically beamed down here in 1964 along with our welfare state.

    No, our thetons were trapped here by the evil Lord Zenu, get it right!

  • Double D||

    I JUST HAPPEN to be black. And you're still full of shit. It's good to take care of yourself and your own, and to be ashamed when you can't. It's the ridiculous "de-stigmatization" of being a broke-ass, dole grabbing loser that creates fools like yourself. Stop blaming other people for your perceived lack of wealth and power and do what it takes to go get some of your own...without stealing it by government decree. Trust me, you'll feel better about yourself.
    Or, you know, just piss off.

  • Jessie||

    You poor dear, suffering under a false consciousness like that. :(

  • Double D||

    You are proof positive that you can't reason with idiots. Or you are an awesome troll.
    While I have white male superiors, those above me run the gamut of races and genders. And, as it turns out, my peers and subordinates run the gamut also. My life is good, I made choices that allow me to save plenty of money every month (more than some of my bosses who are less responsible) and promote well.
    Regardless of your race or sex, you could do the same thing. Or, you know, just piss off.

  • Jessie||

    Alright, well somebody is obviously stealing using my name. I did not write that last comment

  • Tonio||

    It wasn't stolen, Jessie, it was appropriated. You know, for the good of everyone. ;{)>

    Damn, and I was so hoping for awesome trollage.

  • Tonio||

    BTW, we have a problem with spoofing here. The person is generally referred to as "griefer troll". Thus, all the discussions about having to register to comment.

  • Jessie||

    I didn't write it. I was only thinking it. By the way, it's not cool when you guys accuse us of racism. Only we can do that!

  • Double D||

    Get the fuck outta here with that bullshit.

  • Tommie||

    Great advice at the end. Jessie is obviously a miserable political loser, bitter about how life didn't turn out to be a giant egalitarian kindergarten, and how government is failing to force it to be one. The left has nothing left but race hustling. The right answer to a race hustle is to never take the bait, treat it like an insult and tell the hustler to go fuck himself.

    Race accusation, without direct evidence, is like a baseless pedophilia accusation. We need to treat it the same way.

    So Jessie, here's your choice: fuck off, or lets meet somewhere and you can try and call me a racist and see how long it takes for my fist to break your facial bones, you shitbag punk.

  • ||

    Uh, dude, I think Jessie is a woman.

    Also, the internet tough guy thing is not effective for advancing your argument.

  • Tommie||

    The point is to not take racist insinuation as a debate item but to take it as an insult, and no more.

    If a woman does the insulting, then you tell her to go bake cookies or put a cock in her mouth and leave the thinking to the men. If it's a forum where decorum is needed then you just declare the insult a non sequitur and try to get back on point.

  • ||

    No decorum needed here.

  • Double D||

    Check. I grew up plenty poor, and nobody owed or owes me shit. Some of my family, a brother or two included, are still poor. Nobody owes them shit either. As their blood kin, I do what I can for them and theirs. I don't expect an outsider to do anything but give them a fair chance if it's warranted.

  • The Pointer-Outer||

    Only fools cry racism when it clearly does not belong in the conversation.

  • Tonio||

    I'm thinking awesome troll.

  • Tonio||

    Damn. 1:37 above.

  • Paul||

    Being white and male wouldn't hurt either.

    You know what I wanna know? I wanna know when my being-white check is gonna be in the mailbox.

  • ||

    Maybe you could declare yourself as a hippie. My friend in the steel mill (long ago) got a check for discrimination against minorities when he filled out the form and declared his minority group as "hippie".

  • Jessie||

    White males suck. Stone 'em all to death.

  • Tman||

    It's not entirely clear that "We must cut."

    Really? The nonpartisan Concord Coalition, citing data models from the Government Accountability Office, found that by 2027, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and net interest would consume all revenues collected by the federal government.

    We have FIFTEEN YEARS to figure this out or we go broke.

  • Night Elf Mohawk||

    Maybe, but does it consume all the wealth of the citizens in 2027? No? Then MOAR REVENUE!!

  • Tman||

    That's mingeys answer to everything deficit related. "We just need MOAR REVENUE."

    SofaKING retarded.

  • Tony||

    Just raise taxes until the rich bleed out of their tear ducts.

  • ||

    Tman,keep in mind that 15 year figure is only under the most optimistic of scenarios,in addition it is based on the governments own statistics and math which we are being asked to accept at face value.If we multiply these predictions by the current Political Data Discount Factor(PDDF)which can be roughly approximated by comparing real and government reported rates on things like unemployment and inflation I think we can assume the"broke by 2027"scenario may easily be off by a decade.And this is completely putting aside the other possibilities that will get us there at warp speed,like Gulf Wars;Episode IV.

  • ||

    15 years? I'm guessing the big crunch starts mid-way through Obama's 2nd term. Seeds and ammo will be the new currency.

  • ||

    And the larger units will be livestock.

  • protefeed||

    But when I then asked them, 'What would you cut?'

    Anything not in Article I, Section 8. You know, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, non-defense "defense" spending -- about 80% of the federal budget.

    For starters.

  • jacob the barbarian||

    Shit! Protofeed for President!

  • ||

    "why can't these libertarians make the tough choice of increasng government revenue?"

    I'll throw your stick one more time, and that's it.

    If you just look at the ledger and say, "the numbers don't balance" you may think there is no qualitative distinction between raising revenue and cutting spending.

    IF I object strenuously to what the government is actually doing, it would be silly (at best) for me to sit around scratching my head trying to think of ways to raise money to expand those activities.

  • MiNGe||

    OK but why come you don't just raise taxes, tho?

  • wareagle||

    why won't you cut spending? Or at least freeze it?

  • ||

    It's ludicrous to expect poor, starving government to get by on the $95,000 dollars it takes in every second. Not to mention the $24,000 it already borrows every second on top of that.

    Ludicrous.

  • Paul||

    A government budget is not like a household budget...

  • Coach Panto||

    Politicians do not have the courage to cut. They will instead try and devalue the dollar to reduce the debt ratio to GDP. But it will not work unless the tax code and entitlements are reformed and limited, and the banks are released from the bondage of nationalized housing and student loan edicts.

    I think the inflation policy will spiral out of control, and there will be rivers of blood in the street. Then if we avoid a junta, maybe a libertarian government is possible. Until then, lock and load baby.

  • Libertarian Government ||

    Libertarian Aggression

  • Double D||

    If the economy and government collapse, it's tyranny all the way down.

  • ||

    They will instead try and devalue the dollar to reduce the debt ratio to GDP.

    Which will fail, for two reasons.

    (1) Debasing the currency will damage the economy, and thus the tax base, and thus tax collections.

    (2) Dollar devaluation means inflation, which means higher interest rate, which means that as debt rolls over at new interest rates, its not being inflated away any more.

  • sarcasmic||

    What about a combination of inflating the money supply while artificially holding interest rates low?

    Isn't that what is happening now?

  • ||

    Artificially holding interest rates low (by buying debt with printed money) is how they inflate the money supply, these days.

    Also known as "monetizing the debt", a sure precursor to runaway inflation.

    It works until it doesn't. And it doesn't work when (a) nobody but your central bank is willing to buy your debt at those rates any more, and (b) nobody is willing to take your debased currency anymore because you are printing so much of it to buy all that debt nobody else will buy.

  • jacob the barbarian||

    Weimar Republik, how did that work?

    The real fucked up part is this has been done before and the result ranges between Weimar Germany to Peron's Argentina to Mugabe's Zimbabwe. None of those three outcomes has a happy ending.

    Trying the same thing over and over again, and hoping for a different outcome. Didn't some smart guy call that insanity?

  • ||

    Those 3 examples are bad, but 2 are very small economies and Germany while large, had been cut off from much of the world by war for years.

    Rome is the only example of the world's biggest economy failing in an orgy of debt, authoritarianism, failed foreign wars, taxing the middle-class out of existence, and currency debasement. Ugly is too mild a word.

    The ensuing 400 years aren't called the "Dark Ages" for nothing. Technological regression, enslavement of the lower classes, near constant warfare, Muslim conquests, starvation, and plagues were some of the features.

  • Robert||

    Maybe worse than you think. There is evidence the Dark Ages were literally dark!

  • Double D||

    If you want guaranteed INDIVIDUAL prosperity for all, you are actually just browsing for your best brand of collars and chains.
    And you still won't get the prosperity.

  • wareagle||

    The phrase is equality of opportunity, not equality of result.

    If you drop out of school, become a meth head, wind up in jail, never hold down a job, make babies you cannot support, or any of a thousand other poor choices, your odds of a good outcome are significantly reduced. But what do I know. I went to public school. In Alabama. Wallace as governor AND integrated classrooms.

  • Loki||

    If you drop out of school, become a meth head, wind up in jail, never hold down a job, make babies you cannot support, or any of a thousand other poor choices

    then it's not really your fault, you've been victimized by those EEEEVVVVVVIIIIILLLLLL 1%ers and you must be taken care of by your benevolent superiors in the government. If only those monacle wearing libertards would just shut up and hand over all their money already.

  • Coach Panto||

    Yeah, when statists claim a positive right, like the right to a house, healthcare, a college education, the answer should be:

    "What right? Where did you dream up a right to a material good? Are you the House Fairy? When did God give you authority to take things from some people and give them to other people? Can anyone claim anything or any service from anyone for any 'fairness' reason? Then I'd like to claim that your wife get nekkid and lube up and give me a full body massage, because it's unfair if you get one and I don't!"

  • Loki||

    That reminds me, why isn't there a "free" erotic massage mandate in the healthcare reform law? Think of the cost savings from the reduction in stress related medical conditions.

  • goneGalt||

    That reminds me, why isn't there a "free" erotic massage mandate

    Don't give 'em any ideas. I'd vote Blue Team myself if they passed that one!

  • RIGHT TO TAKE? Positive right?||

    "[The Native Americans] didn't have any rights to the land ... Any white person who brought the element of civilization had the RIGHT TO TAKE over this continent."

    ~Ayn Rand, US Military Academy at West Point, March 6, 1974

    Is "any white person" indicative of a collective right?

  • ||

    I used to respond to Rectal/White Idiots cut and paste trolling,then I discovered Reasonable.Ignore,Collapse,Move on and talk to adults.

  • sarcasmic||

    Their answer might as well be:

    "Society gives government the power to take your stuff and give it to another person by virtue of the fact that nobody will stop them when they steal from you. This is because they are the ones who are supposed to stop people from stealing from you.

    Might makes right, motherfucker.

    Now cough up some dough before I sick this government agent on you, then go fuck yourself."

  • Original Affluent Society||

    Non-State bands and tribes are simultaneously:

    • Affluent
    • Free
    • Egalitarian

    Historically, people in non-state societies are relatively autonomous and sovereign. They generate their own subsistence with little or no assistance from outside sources. They bow to no external political leaders. Nor are they routinely exploited by outsiders.
    Elman R. Service (1975), Origins of the State and Civilization: The Process of Cultural Evolution. New York: Norton.
    * NON-STATE AND STATE SOCIETIES
    http://faculty.smu.edu/rkemper.....ieties.pdf

    The Original Affluent Society
    by Marshall Sahlins
    University of Chicago
    http://www.primitivism.com/original-affluent.htm

  • Almanian||

    But I thought you posted about that 0.1% of the population doesn't live in this type of environment...so how does Mr. Sahlins know all this? He's familiar with these 0.1% people? He's lived among them?

    Also, define "affluent", "effluent" and "fluent".

  • A freshman anthropology course||

    ...could help answer all your questions, fundamentalist creationist type.

  • Native American Creationism||

    In the beginning was only Tepeu and Gucumatz. These two sat together and thought, and whatever they thought came into being. They thought Earth, and there it was. They thought mountains, and so there were. They thought trees, and sky, and animals etc, and each came into being. But none of these things could praise them, so they formed more advanced beings of clay. But these beings fell apart when they got wet, so they made beings out of wood, but they proved unsatisfactory and caused trouble on the earth. The gods sent a great flood to wipe out these beings, so that they could start over. With the help of Mountain Lion, Coyote, Parrot, and Crow they fashioned four new beings. These four beings performed well and are the ancestors of the Quiché In the beginning was only Tepeu and Gucumatz.

    These two sat together and thought, and whatever they thought came into being.

  • Native American Creationism||

    In the beginning was only Tepeu and Gucumatz. These two sat together and thought, and whatever they thought came into being. They thought Earth, and there it was. They thought mountains, and so there were. They thought trees, and sky, and animals etc, and each came into being. But none of these things could praise them, so they formed more advanced beings of clay. But these beings fell apart when they got wet, so they made beings out of wood, but they proved unsatisfactory and caused trouble on the earth. The gods sent a great flood to wipe out these beings, so that they could start over. With the help of Mountain Lion, Coyote, Parrot, and Crow they fashioned four new beings. These four beings performed well and are the ancestors of the Quiché In the beginning was only Tepeu and Gucumatz.

    These two sat together and thought, and whatever they thought came into being.

  • Offwhite Retard||

    It's all I ever needed anyway.

  • Native American Creationism||

    In the beginning nothing existed, only darkness was everywhere. Suddenly from the darkness emerged a thin disc, one side yellow and the other side white, appearing suspended in midair. Within the disc sat a small bearded man, Creator, the One Who Lives Above. When he looked into the endless darkness, light appeared above. He looked down and it became a sea of light. To the east, he created yellow streaks of dawn. To the west, tints of many colors appeared everywhere. There were also clouds of different colours. He also created three other gods: a little girl, a Sun-God and a small boy.

  • Pseudo-anthropology...||

    ...is the answer to everything!

  • ||

    Was it a Blu-Ray?

  • jacob the barbarian||

    Whita asshole is at it again. I guess hee is done plowing through the entire box of ho ho's and a gallon milk mom brought down to the basement for him

  • jacob the barbarian||

    'White Asshole'

  • ||

    Jacob,Google Chrome+Reasonable,that is all.

  • jacob the barbarian||

    Thanks for the heads up. Will look into it. ZERO sarc!

  • Almanian||

    ...but back to the picture of the Wildebeasts that accompanies this article. Whoever from Reason selected that picture....fuck you very much.

    Pelosi and that dark-haired hag behind her that I've seen before, PLUS the pasty, fat white guy .....the horror....the horror....

    *shudder*

  • Now for something different||

  • Almanian||

    I like how you prefer cartoons and the theoretical to real people and real life.

    It's cute!

  • real people and real life||

    picture of the Wildebeasts that accompanies this article

    LULZ

  • ||

    STATE FELLATING PROPAGANDA...Well you can't go anywhere in public or turn on the TV without getting clubbed over the head with it.But on the off chance you missed your dose today our sockpuppet army will deliver free of charge.

  • CitySTATE Fellating Propaganda||

    Well you can't go anywhere in public or Reason without getting clubbed over the head with it. But on the off chance you missed your dose today our Fibertarian army (of one) will deliver free of charge.

  • ||

    Do they pay you 50 cents per post like the chinese government sponsored sockpuppets or is it more in this country?

  • Tony||

    Revenues won't make up the entire budget gap, therefore we must raise exactly $0 in revenues.

    This entire viewpoint is disingenuous, John Stossel merely expresses it extremely stupidly.

  • Sparky||

    Good English.

  • Blacksmithking||

    We can raise taxes, thereby giving irresponsible people more money. Odds are they'll spend 140% of it. How's that better, Tony?

  • Tony||

    I don't favor peeking into people's personal habits when making tax policy, so I can't possibly just be for distributing to irresponsible people.

    Or are you just equating poverty with irresponsibility (and wealth with virtue)?

  • Pythagoran||

    I must congratulate the editor for finding what might be the most unflattering picture of anybody ever. Not that Pelosi doesn't deserve it.

  • Fat inbred moron||

    71 year old grandmothers must give me a boner or I will mock them endlessly.

  • Blue Team Punkass||

    Bawwwwwwwwww! Don't microaggress our politicians!

  • cw||

    As you can see, cracker injun is just another Team Blue shill.

  • Team Blue=progressivist like U||

    Agricultural city-Statism (Civilization) is wonderful progress to Leftists and Libertards.

  • Adam Smith||

    Primitivism is fine if you do it voluntarily. The problem is the left wants to do it by force.

    Hunter gathers are historically not affluent. They get cold, wet, infections and other maladies, and they die from combat with other hunter-gatherers over the best food-bearing territories.

    Good shelter and food and medicine requires an industrial technology base, which requires monetized trade, which requires property rights, which derives from the only valid positive right: the natural human right to your own body.

    Property rights must be enforced by a rule of law. Only a government, no matter what you call it, can enforce law, and can only do so effectively if limited by Negative Rights barring infringement of speech, belief, privacy, etc.

    So if you want to go back to the cave, knock yourself out. I'm betting on the bugs or the bears to take you out within a year.

  • Agriculture = Aggression||

    you're so full of city-Statist shit and lies it's unbelievable...but it's reason, so hey

  • NotSure||

    So what are you doing here then ? You hate Reason so much, hate the people so much, yet here you are whole day. Can't find anything better ?

  • jacob the barbarian||

    Its called Trolling. It is a past time is a mendacious douche bags. As for better, the kids on the street beat him up when he comes out of the house.

  • jacob the barbarian||

    past time OF mendacious

  • Counting coup on you||

    Can't take the competition in the "marketplace" of ideas?

  • Counting coup on you||

    Oh, Little Debbie, love would never do without you.

  • ||

    There is the market place and then there is theft. The market place is about making contracts and delivering what is promised in the contract. A theft if it is a con is about lying and trying get something for nothing.

    Here, honest discourse is the market place. You are the con-man White Idiot. You are the thief. You repeat yourself ad-nausium citing the same three articles over and over and over and over. Or you create your own sock puppets and argue with your self.

    This is not counting coup. This is public masturbation. While is may feel good for you. It is nauseating to everyone else. If you had any sense you would be embarrassed.

  • ||

    continuing ...

    Find a new shtick and answer questions as they are posed. As an anarchist, you should have both the European and American schools of anarchy to draw some thoughtful material from. Note, neither of them advocated a return to savagery.

    If your 'ideas' demonstrate merit, them you might be able to count coup. Currently now one is buying your bullshit. Right now, your hands a damp and sticky while the rest of us want to throw up every time you spew some more.

    We should rename you walking eagle, you are so full of crap, you cannot fly.

  • ||

    +10,Now THAT is counting coup.

  • Anarcho-primitivism...||

    ...equals crap.

  • STEVE SMITH||

    NO GO BACK TO CAVE, COME TO MINE INSTEAD.

  • butthurt Libertard whiner||

    poor baby

  • ||

    It is my firm believe that entitlements are the most pervasive, the most universally abused, the most addictive, the most damaging and the most costly "drug" known today. And guess who the dealer is? "Goddamn the pusherman" Steppenwolf.

  • cityStatist Land enTITLEments?||

    Are a drug?

  • we||

    No, Stossell. We are not "Greece" until we dump the sovereign American greenback and adopt the Euro and let Germany dictate our monetary policy.

    Government's debts can always be "monetized." Whether that is a form of taxation, a form of spending, or something else entirely, is open to debate.

    Stablizing the federal finances is really not such a heavy lift. Just holding the line on various inflation-adjusted increases would close the gap pretty efficiently and offer a smooth glide path to 'decreased' spending.

  • ||

    Although I certainly agree that we need to get our deficit under control, I do think it's possible to make positive net present value investments (even for a government)

    http://www.amazon.com/American.....492&sr=8-1

    Of course I guess the real questions is would the investments be +NPV, But I also question whether the private sector will pick up the slack at this time from a reduction in government spending.

    We also don't want to put ourselves in a position where reductions in government spending increase the deficit (as a percent of GDP) which Greece has demonstrated can happen.

  • slutmonkey||

    Whenever I see the comparison to a normal household's budget at the beginning of this article I always wonder if liberals are clammering for tax increases because this convinces them that the government is "poor". :/

  • Tony||

    It is poor. Revenues as a percentage of GDP are lower than they have been since before WWII. This is a huge part of the problem and you guys completely ignore it for no reason other than ideology.

  • ||

    That's mainly due to a weak economy though.

  • ||

    That's mainly due to a weak economy though.

    It will never understand that point.

    Because then it would have to connect the dots that when the economy is bad everyone is hurt and when the economy is good and growing we all do better.

    Since liberals love feelings more than facts you cant change thier minds or their views.

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    It is poor. Revenues as a percentage of GDP are lower than they have been since before WWII.

    Actually, it's in the last 50 years. Either way, the tax rates were much higher at that time, so it doesn't exactly support your argument that tax rates need to be raised in order to increase that percentage.

    You might try checking the BLS tables for a clue as to why revenues as a percentage of GDP are so low.

  • Mr. FIFY||

    This isn't that hard, people.

    Freeze the budget levels, leave tax rates where they are, and stop bitching about wanting an extra five cents on the dollar from people making over the magic $200K/250K income level.

  • ||

    Great piece, but I have a quibble. The poltitians don't have enough power to sink our society. As you point out we are doing that to ourselves.

  • ||

    What would you cut? And they just stared ahead. At you? because they
    and you know damn well what needs to be cut -- the military budget 95%, tax
    breaks for the wealthy, congressional
    raises, agribusiness subsidies, bank
    writeoffs, etc. Everybody knows what
    and where cuts need to be made. Not to
    working Americans, to the middle class
    that has already been cut to pieces.

GET REASON MAGAZINE

Get Reason's print or digital edition before it’s posted online

  • Video Game Nation: How gaming is making America freer – and more fun.
  • Matt Welch: How the left turned against free speech.
  • Nothing Left to Cut? Congress can’t live within their means.
  • And much more.

SUBSCRIBE

advertisement