Keep on Rockin' in the Free World

How the Velvet Underground and Václav Havel built a blueprint for toppling totalitarians and other censors

(Page 2 of 3)

The actual Velvet Underground back in the United States was being used as a cautionary tale for parents about their drug-addicted teens. “The light show, the intensity of the sound, the wild dress and appearance of the musicians has turned many adults away from listening to the lyrics,” the Utah Deseret News quoted one cultawareness seminar leader as saying in 1974. “But if heeded, the words vividly convey a message of confusion, searching, longing, destruction, and morbidity.” At the same time, the band’s Czech apprentices were being portrayed on propagandistic communist television shows as dangerously nihilistic longhairs who might just convince wayward teens to hijack an airplane. Forced underground by the censors, the Plastics and their followers christened their own artistic movement as “the underground” (in English), or druhá kultura (“second culture”). It was alternative before there was Alternative. As Hlavsa would tell an interviewer in 1997, “Our community, which was, probably imprecisely, referred to as ‘underground,’ was a pocket of normal life. . . . People with feelings similar to ours were coming to our concerts. Their music preferences were not necessarily similar, but music wasn’t as important there as meeting people and being together in a normal environment for a while. I don’t know if anything like that would be possible had the Plastic People of the Universe not existed then.”

By 1976, the regime could stand it no more. At a festival celebrating druhá kultura, four members of the Plastic People, along with many other festival attendees, were arrested on charges of disturbing the peace, no small offense in communist Czechoslovakia. It was a move that would not only backfire on communist authorities but help create source code for citizens of any lousy country to stand up to their oppressors. Dissent itself was about to be democratized, planting seeds that would eventually free hundreds of millions of people. Václav Havel, by this time, was not your typical rock ‘n’ roller. At age thirty-nine, this disheveled, chain-smoking playwright with the awkward stammer, son of one of the richest families in modern Czech history, spent much his time with his regal wife futzing about the garden of their vacation cottage outside of Prague, under the perpetual surveillance of the police. As an enthusiastic participant of the 1960s—“That was an extraordinarily interesting, fertile, and inspiring period, not only here, but in the culture of the entire world,” he told an interviewer in 1975—Havel was a rock guy. He preferred the Stones to the Beatles and took from amplified music “a temperament, a nonconformist state of the spirit, an anti-establishment orientation, an aversion to philistines, and an interest in the wretched and humiliated,” he would later write. This may help explain why, the year before, after more than a half decade of depressed indolence brought on by normalization and the experience of being banned in his own country, Havel had uncorked a piece of literary and political punk rock whose ramifications are still being felt.

In April 1975, Havel sat down and, knowing that he’d likely be imprisoned for his efforts, wrote an open letter to his dictator, Gustáv Husák, explaining in fearless and painstaking detail just why and how totalitarianism was ruining Czechoslovakia. “So far,” Havel scolded Husák, “you and your government have chosen the easy way out for yourselves, and the most dangerous road for society: the path of inner decay for the sake of outward appearances; of deadening life for the sake of increasing uniformity; of deepening the spiritual and moral crisis of our society, and ceaselessly degrading human dignity, for the puny sake of protecting your own power.”

It was the big bang that set off the dissident movement in Central Europe. For those lucky enough to read an illegally retyped copy or hear it broadcast over Radio Free Europe, the effect was not unlike what happened to, well, those few people who bought the Velvet Underground’s first record: After the shock and initial pleasure wore off, many said, “Wait a minute, I can do this too!” By standing up to a system that had forced every citizen to make a thousand daily compromises—indeed, by identifying those compromises and vowing to forego them in the future—Havel was suggesting a novel new tactic: Have the self-respect to call things by their proper names, never mind the consequences, and maybe you’ll put the bastards on the defensive. “In general, I believe it always makes sense to tell the truth, in all circumstances,” he told interviewer Ji í Lederer three weeks after issuing the letter. Besides, “I got tired of always wondering how to move in this situation, and I felt the need to stir things up, to confront others for a change and force them to deal with a situation that I myself had created.” A Czech, then Slovak, then Polish, then communist-bloc dissident movement sprang up around Havel’s letter, producing entire genres of literature within the confines of samizdat. Writers grew their hair out a bit, joked out loud about the secret police, and began looking for a cause célèbre. When the arty longhairs of the Plastic People got charged with disturbing the peace, it became a turning point both in Havel’s life and the future of the world.

“What Havel realized was that this represented something very dangerous,” said Czech-born British playwright Tom Stoppard, whose award-winning 2006 play Rock ’n’ Roll centered on a Plastic People fan becoming radicalized in communist Prague, in 2009. “Now the state could put you into jail simply for being the wrong sort of bloke.” As Havel would later recall, “Everyone understood that an attack on the Czech musical underground was an attack on a most elementary and important thing, something that in fact bound everyone together: it was an attack on the very notion of living within the truth, on the real aims of life.”

Havel’s 1976 essay on the Plastic People trial—which he and his friends brazenly attended every day, shocking officials in the courtroom—has the rushed and liberated tone of someone who has just crossed a personal point of no return, or has just heard the Sex Pistols’ Never Mind the Bollocks for the first time. “It doesn’t often happen and when it does it usually happens when least expected,” the piece begins. “Somewhere, something slips out of joint and suddenly a particular event, because of an unforeseen interplay between its inner premises and more or less fortuitous external circumstances, crosses the threshold of its usual place in the everyday world, breaks through the shell of what it is supposed to be and what it seems, and reveals its innermost symbolic significance. And something originally quite ordinary suddenly casts a surprising light on the time and the world we live in, and dramatically highlights its fundamental questions.”

Ivan Martin Jirous and his compadres, Havel writes, may not have “had any other aim in mind than persuading the court of their innocence and defending their right to compose and sing the songs they wanted,” but through the absurd theatrics of totalitarianism they became “the unintentional personification of those forces in man that compel him to search for himself, to determine his own place in the world freely, and in his own way, not to make deals with his heart and not to cheat his conscience, to call things by their true names . . . and to do so at one’s own risk, aware that at any time one may come up against the disfavor of the ‘masters,’ the incomprehension of the dull-witted, or their own limitations.” Havel and his friends began to experience “the exciting realization that there are still people among us who assume the existential responsibility for their own truth and are willing to pay a high price for it.” Suddenly, “much of the wariness and caution that marks my behavior seemed petty to me. I felt an increased revulsion toward all forms of guile, all attempts at painlessly worming one’s way out of vital dilemmas. Suddenly, I discovered in myself more determination in one direction, and more independence in another. Suddenly, I felt disgusted with a whole world, in which—as I realized then—I still have one foot: the world of emergency exits.”

The essay ends with a classic description of Havel bumping into a film director who doesn’t understand his sudden enthusiasm for defending a bunch of derelict, possibly drug-addled rock musicians. “Perhaps I’m doing him an injustice,” Havel writes, “but at that moment, I was overwhelmed by an intense feeling that this dear man belonged to a world that I no longer wish to have anything to do with—and Mr. Public Prosecutor Kovarik, pay attention, because here comes a vulgar word—I mean the world of cunning shits.”

With this middle finger pointed at commie censors and other cunning shits, Václav Havel and his friends then launched Charter 77, arguably the most influential human rights organization in modern history. The charter of the organization’s name was an ingeniously clever petition: Like Martin Luther King Jr. asking for the “promissory note” of the Declaration of Independence to be enshrined in official policy, the Czech and Slovak signatories of Charter 77 merely asked their government to abide by its own laws—specifically, the 1960 Czechoslovak Constitution, plus the human rights provisions in several international treaties that the country had signed onto to shore up its image, most critically the 1975 Helsinki Final Act of the major Cold War diplomatic effort the Helsinki Accords.

The Final Act, signed by President Gerald Ford, was roundly criticized at the time by American conservatives—and especially neoconservatives—as a “betrayal” since, among other things, it codified the existing postwar borders of Europe, which meant accepting in treaty form the imperial Soviet subjugation of the Baltic countries of Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia. But the act also included important covenants on civil, political, and economic rights. Living up to Helsinki would have meant allowing free expression, “freedom from fear,” freedom of religious practice, and other rights then quashed by totalitarians and authoritarians everywhere. The narrow, legalistic tactic of petitioning the government to follow its own laws was a built-in defense against charges of political subversion and a clever way to attract the attention and support of international activists and governments. It started with Charter 77, spread to the Committee for the Defense of Workers in Poland, then the Moscow Helsinki Group, and on and on. In the West, Helsinki helped spawn Helsinki Watch, which would later become Human Rights Watch, which linked up with the fate of Eastern Bloc dissidents, and by the time Ronald Reagan was negotiating with Mikhail Gorbachev about nuclear warheads and the Strategic Defense Initiative in the mid-1980s, the Final Act was a handy spotlight with which to expose communist hypocrisy. It acted as a crowbar wedged into the seams of the Iron Curtain.

Czechoslovak authorities initially responded to Charter 77 by trying to suppress the document and harass its authors, but the petition had gone global and was being beamed back into the country through Radio Free Europe and Voice of America. Emboldened even in the face of a new round of arrests and show trials, the chartists launched the Committee for the Defense of the Unjustly Persecuted, and Havel even brought the just-back-from-prison Plastic People over to his country house to record their 1978 album Passion Play. The wind now in the anticommunists’ sails, Havel in October 1978 uncorked his most famous and influential essay of all, “The Power of the Powerless.” The lead essay in what was supposed to be a joint Polish-Czechoslovak dissident forum, Havel’s meditation on the meaning of dissent and the architecture of lies required by totalitarianism had a profound impact across the Eastern Bloc and beyond. It was a how-to guide for regular people to create daily acts of subversion just by choosing to live and act honestly and openly. Solidarity activist Zbygniew Bujak once told Havel’s Englishlanguage translator (and former coconspirator of the Plastic People), the great Canadian journalist Paul Wilson,

This essay reached us in the Ursus factory in 1979 at a point when we felt we were at the end of the road. . . . Reading it gave us the theoretical underpinnings for our activity. It maintained our spirits; we did not give up, and a year later—in August 1980—it became clear that the party apparatus and the factory management were afraid of us. We mattered. And the rank and file saw us as leaders of the movement. When I look at the victories of Solidarity, and of Charter 77, I see in them an astonishing fulfillment of the prophecies and knowledge contained in Havel’s essay. 

Havel spent most of the next five years in jail. But such arrests only served to make the plight of the dissidents more internationally famous and to drain what remaining sympathy there might have been among Western intellectuals for the projects of communism and Marxism. Like George Orwell, another self-described “man of the left” obsessed with the meaning of words and the endless search for truth, Havel became one of the twentieth century’s most effective anticommunists.

And, like Orwell, Havel saw political and ideological tribalism as the great impediment to that search. Personal independence, he has said for decades, is the prerequisite for living in truth. Havel’s Civic Forum movement, which rose up against and eventually took power from the Communist Party, was intentionally designed as a unified front against communism. In the first months of his presidency, which began in 1989, he championed “nonpolitical politics,” and even when that ideal disintegrated upon contact with modern democratic realities, Havel refused to ever join a political party. As he wrote in his 1991 book Summer Meditations,

All my adult life I was branded by officials as “an exponent of the right” who wanted to bring capitalism back to our country. Today—at a ripe old age—I am suspected by some of being left-wing, if not of harboring out-and-out socialist tendencies. What, then, is my real position? First and foremost, I have never espoused any ideology, dogma, or doctrine—left-wing, right-wing, or any other closed, ready-made system of presuppositions about the world. On the contrary, I have tried to think independently, using my own powers of reason, and I have always vigorously resisted attempts to pigeonhole me.

Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Report abuses.

  • ||

    built a blueprint for toppling totalitarians and other sensors

    And as we all know from Star Trek, it is the tachyon sensor which is the most oppressive of all.

  • ||

    Damnit, first and with a much cleverer response. I hate you.

  • ||

    Sorry, dude. But really, does it matter? All that matters today is that the Patriots destroy the Broncos so that people stop talking about Tim Tebow. Please Jeebus let the Patriots finish this.

  • ||

    I find your false humility to be even more humiliating than your whipping my ass on the sensor thing.

    Also, I live in Europe and have no interest in this wimpy sport where people wear padding so they don't get too many 'owies' that you speak of.

  • ||

    It's not widely known, but it turns out that Jean-Luc Picard is a Seahawks fan. Kirk, of course, rooted for Kansas City, though I have no idea why. Spock is the smart one; he is a Giants fan. Wesley, obviously, rooted for the Cowboys; nothing more need be said about that.

  • ||

    What about Troi? I bet she's a Steelers fan.

  • ||

    Green Bay, just like Ryker. Worf is of course a Bengals fan.

    OH SHIT THE SEAHAWKS JUST INTERCEPTED FOR A TOUCHDOWN

  • ||

    One thing's for sure: Q is a Steelers fan.

  • ||

    I think the real question is, who does Data root for? For some reason, I feel like he'd be a Saints man.

  • ||

    Why is Picard not a Saints fan? He is French after all.

  • ||

    Q is a Broncos fan, and he's omnipotent.

  • ||

    We'll see in 4 1/2 hours.

  • ||

    Given his temperment and what he thought of himself, I'd say its a good bet that Q is a 72' Dolphins fan.

  • ||

    "Laces OUT!"

    Sorry wrong Dolphins.

  • Mr. FIFY||

    So, Dr. Smith from Lost In Space would be a Jerry Sandusky fan?

  • ||

    I wanna know who Lore likes and I'm gonna make them my team.

  • Mr. FIFY||

    Lore was a Raiders fan.

  • ||

    I know Sulu was a Packers fan.

    /rimshot

  • Mr. FIFY||

    Plus one for the sloop!

  • Beavis||

    Did he say "rimjob"?

  • Butt-head||

    Heh. Heh. That's cool.

  • ||

    "I know Sulu was a Packers fan."

    Nice.

  • Dr. John Robinson||

    We need to chart this planet. Greg, you take my 16 year old daughter out into the woods for the rest of the day. Penny, you stay with me. And Will, you and the robot go out into the uncharted wilderness and take this mincing, boy-hungry pedophile with you.

  • Warty||

    I'm way late to this party, but it's obvious that Uhura is a big Browns fan.

  • Raaaaacist!||

  • ||

  • ||

    Incentives matter.

  • ||

    It's drama, nor trauma.

  • ||

    "built a blueprint for toppling totalitarians and other sensors"

    By setting their phasers on stun!

  • ||

    If anybody thinks Havel could have ran the offense Tebow is running, they're crazy.

  • ||

    Havel would've smoked the offense.

  • ||

    A man of peace who was able to smash Caesar.

    I can't think of a better epitaph.

  • ||

    Whenever some neoconned nitwit blathers on about the need to maintain empire lest doomsday prevail, tell him:

    Havel

  • ||

    Without free, self-respecting, and autonomous citizens there can be no free and independent nations. Without internal peace, that is, peace among citizens and between the citizens and the state, there can be no guarantee of external peace.
    - Vaclav Havel

  • ||

    In order for there to be peace between the citizen and the state, the state must fear the citizen.

  • ||

    If Tebow was the QB for the Green Bay Packers, the last Chiefs TD wouldn't have put this game out of reach.

  • ||

    If Tebow were the QB for the Packers, Jackie Battle would have run out of bounds on that last run.

  • El Commentariosa||

    And the 72 Dolphins break out the champagne

  • Professional Critic||

    So why is it that the darlings of the cosmotarians like the Egyptian punks and Eastern European soi-disant revolutionaries can be so important to the start of revolutions and then disappear into the abyss of reactionaries who inevitably take over and establish another totalitarian regime? Maybe the power of Frank Zappa only goes so far.

  • ||

    Ssshhhhhhhhhh......Matt and Nick might be upset upon hearing such truths.

  • ||

    The Czech Republic is a totalitarian regime? That will come as a hell of a surprise to the Czechs. Sell stupid elsewhere. We are all full up here.

  • Professional Critic||

    Slovakia didn't exactly open up, did it?

  • ||

    Have you ever been to Central Europe.

  • ||

    Every time I look at your gravatar, I want to ask you if you really had a tooth pulled when you starred in The Hangover.

  • ||

    I had to do some googling to figure that out. But now we are mortal enemies, sir. One day you will flee that shithole as I did, and I will be waiting for you.

  • ||

    Slovakia had no right to secede.

  • np||

    The Czech Republic is probably THE closest thing we have to libertopia today in every area.

  • ||

    There's some truth to this, but only some...

  • ||

    Estonia > Czech Republic, somewhat.

  • ||

    Not Somalia?

  • ||

    TE-BOW.
    TE-BOW.
    TE-BOW.
    TE-BOW.

  • ||

    It really is good versus evil out in Denver today.

  • ||

    It's too bad Christopher Hitchens didn't live long enough to see Tebow knocked down a few pegs.

  • El Commentariosa||

    They don't show the NFL in hell?

  • ||

    Only in Gianni Versace's cell.

  • ||

    Yes!!!!!!! That's the way to score a TD.

  • El Commentariosa||

    TD TEBOW

  • ||

    The Patriots defense's weakness is the passing game. The Broncos offense's weakness is the passing game. Therefore it seems obvious that the two cancel each other out and Tom Brady and Co. should crush Timmmay.

  • ||

    That is what the Romans thought when they crucified Christ. Little did they know, that was only the third quarter.

  • ||

    So are the Patriots the Jews or the Romans?

    Belichik would make a good Pharisee.

  • ||

    Belichek would be Caleb.

  • ||

    Did you guys see Louis Murphy "Tebow" after that TD?

  • El Commentariosa||

    Did he get a penatly?

  • ||

  • ||

    Does Vick have a vagina on his shoulder? How the fuck is that a personal foul?

  • ||

    Oh my God! Tebow touched Andre Carter's shoulder and now he can walk again!

  • ||

    The power of Tim compels you! The power of Tim compels you!

  • ||

    Praise the Lord and pass the Astroglide!

  • Tulpa Derper||

    I hate Tebow therefore he must be gay.

  • ||

    You don't need to be gay to use astroglide. And I should know.

  • ||

    Tebow probably uses it on his bicycle.

  • ||

    What does that even mean?

  • Tulpa Derper||

    It means Tebow is gay. Because I hate him.

  • ||

    You're not in the lifestyle, clearly.

  • ||

    Tulpa, do you ride your bike to work?

  • ||

    Astroglide is a gay thing? I had no idea.

  • Tulpa Derper||

    I like anal sex, but not because I'm gay.

  • ||

    Fuck. I get back from tennis and the fucking Broncos are in the lead. At least the Seahawks won. Not that I care.

    The Patriots had better get their shit together.

  • ||

    And the Broncos have their first two-score lead of the season...I think.

  • ||

    Hahahahaha...turnover to the Patriots and they're in the lead. I would have challenged that incomplete, though.

  • ||

    Need a stop on 4th here.

  • ||

    Oh my god the look on Timmah's face after the Patriots scored again off his fumble was priceless.

    WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW TIM?

  • ||

    Tebow is pulling an Elliot Gould and just trying to up the odds at halftime. Then they'll bring in Spearchucker Jones and win it on a trick play.

  • ||

    The Lord doesn't take kindly to presumption.

  • ||

    If I recall correctly, the 4077th also had an extra point attempt blocked and were down by two scores at halftime.

    Coincidence? We'll see.

  • ||

    spearchucker jones????

    RACIST!!!

  • ||

    Are the comments for the SPD/DoJ thread shut down? I thought for sure you'd respond to me there first.

  • ||

    am i required to respond to every post you make, especially if cop related?

    i've been busy... Xmas parties, etc. work, family, bla bla

    i pretty much made my point clear.

    assuming that the DOJ report is accurate, SPD should be fucking ashamed of itself , because even if those using excessive force are a realtively small # of cops, they apparently have done a shit poor job of disciplining and investigating same

    there is NO excuse for that.

    it's really that simple

    i've long said SPD is a mediocre (at best) PD and run by a bunch of spineless pieces of shit one after the other (kerlikowske, etc.)

    i'm just as concerned wiht their lack of response (e.g. mardi gras where somebody died and countless were injured) due to their admin's cowardice and refusal to engage rioters because it would look bad on CNN as i am about their excessive force on UOF's

    as for the profanity video that got those cops 15-20 days, i commented on that incident MONTHS ago when it actually happened

    iirc i was the one who first posted about it

  • ||

    Just so I'm clear: one of your main problems with SPD is that they don't engage "rioters?"

    And as far as the other story, the cops didn't "get" 15-20 days. They were suspended without pay for assault, threatening a man with violence, and falsifying arrest reports...all of which are crimes, not breaches of policy.

    But whatever, dude. Isolated incidents. A few bad apples. Etc. Etc.

  • ||

    my problems with SPD are many

    but yes, i think that when you have people rioting and SERIOUSLY INJURING AND KILLING innocents, you are morally and legally mandated, as a PD to DO SOMETHING

    SPD didn't

    that is 100% inexcusable

    it is one thing for some officers to engage in excessive force. SOME may have been actual choices to violate people, and other's may have been well intentioned officers overstepping their legal bounds and/or falling prey to emotion, etc.

    either way, that's wrong, it should be investigated and disciplined

    so, yes... incentivizing people to riot and kill other people and doing NOTHING via a policy set by a spineless admin IS a terrible terrible thing

    and the reason why -.... politics... is disgusting

    cops should try to do the right thing EVEN when it might look bad.

    did the DOJ report say WHAT PERCENTAGE of SPD cops engaged in UOF, and specifically repeated incidents of excessive UOF? if so, that would be helpful to see if it was or wasn't isolated iow a small # of cops doing most of the bad shit

    any cop knows when it comes to crime in general, it's a small %age of the population doing the vast majority of crime

    i woudl suspect the same is true in SPD and many other police agencies

    no agency could elminate excessive force, because cops are human and even if you had a 100% perfect screening process (impossible) and investigative process (impossible), it's still going to happen - but its going to happen LESS often

    20% is simply way too high to draw any conclusion except that SPD has done a shit poor job of investigating and disciplining (and screening wayward ) officers.

    heck, i know officers who have failed my dept's FTO program who ended up in SPD

    lol

  • ||

    did the DOJ report say WHAT PERCENTAGE of SPD cops engaged in UOF, and specifically repeated incidents of excessive UOF? if so, that would be helpful to see if it was or wasn't isolated iow a small # of cops doing most of the bad shit

    No, the DoJ didn't. Their report said they couldn't because of the culture of corruption in the investigative process, the systematic and intentional lack of self-reporting and the willful and flagrant disregard of UOF reports by the officers tapped to investigate them.

    IOW, they refused to report UOF, they refused to investigate civilian claims of UOF and they manipulated rules that said an officer's testimony could not be used to prosecute even admitted excessive force.

    either way, that's wrong, it should be investigated and disciplined

    No. It should be investigated and prosecuted, as it would for any non-cop.

    and the reason why -.... politics... is disgusting

    Um, you mean the union rules and their stranglehold on accountability for their own department.

  • ||

    look, sloopy, spare me the "as it would for any non-cop" stuff.

    I KNOW you believe it, but it's simply hogwash. a substantial %age would NOT be prosecuted, nor are most analogous to "non-cop" force incidents because most happen trying to stop crimes and/or in response to same, etc.

    most prosecutors (where i work) don't prosecute de minimus stuff and they don't prosecute stuff like the times when a group of citizens used "excessive force" to take a guy prowling their car into custody themselves, for example

    there is a difference between punching somebody because you don't like him, and striking somebody because you are trying to take him into custody, he resists and while his resistance doesn't justify a closed hand strike, it does justify force.

    20% included ALL such scenarios, and many are going to be like the latter.

    as for the last (the mardi gras riots) it had nothing to do with union rules. it had to do with a cowardly admin that did not want SPD cops seen on teevee hitting brown people with sticks, so they decided it would be better to let bad guys riot (subsequent video analyzed by the times, etc. showed about 85%+ to be 'persons of color' and they were criticized as being 'racist' for printing a video still, since it showed "persons of color" rioting) than to STOP THEM which is the job of the cops and people were very seriously injured and killed

    every police encounter practically involves choices made as to whether to use force, when, and how much. it is NOT easy, and cops can and will make mistakes

    however, the #'s in SPD and the failure to adequately discipline and respond are inexcusable

  • ||

    Whatever, dude. You are a lost cause to liberty because you still see non-cops in a different light. Good luck with your pension.

  • ||

    and i think you are a lost cause to liberty, because you fail to understand how rule of law works in a civilized society.

    we can disagree.

    and thanks on my pension, although i put away 1/5 to 1/4 of my income into savings/investment/retirement as WELL as my state provided retirement plan

  • ||

    Sorry, but morality>rule of law.

    The USSR had rule of law.
    The ChiComs have rule of law.

  • ||

    sorry, but judges, the legal system cannot make decisions based on "morality". that's why we have rule of law.

    if you want every judge to be an individual arbiter of what is or isn't moral, then you don't like rule of law.

    that much is clear.

    the law recognizes that individuals can have different concept of "the moral" while all being subject to "the law".

    cmon, this is BASIC civics.

  • ||

    When the same set of rules apply to members of a society equally, you have a moral code. When they are applied with inequity, you no longer have a moral code. That is the society we live in, and if you don't see that, then you are either blind or willfully ignorant.

  • ||

    stop evading. judges can't rule on morality. you made an absurd statement and you can't simply admit it : my bad

    this is an example of how you won't have a conversation like an adult. for fuck's sake, just admit you are wrong (god knows i've done it) and moved on

    you just said morality > rule of law when i mentioned my perception that you fail to understand rule of law.

    despite the fact that morality may be greater than rule of law in a cosmic sense, we don't expect, nor can we... cosmic justice (thanks sowell) from our LEGAL SYSTEM. we expect them to rule ON THE LAW, not on MORALITY

    so, just be a man... for once... and admit that a legal system has to value rule of law or it isn't a legal system. it ceases to be rule of law, and inevitably becomes rule of MEN (which ironically was what you had in the USSR, but i digress)...

    yes, and i know you think there is this double standard where cops can do all kinds of shit with impunity that would get non-cops arrested, bla bla. we've gone over that. you and i will continue to disagree

    but that is tangential to the fact that our system and ANY just legal system must respect rule of law

    we cannot let judges rule on morality (and note that JURIES *can* rule on morality, if they think it overwhelms the rule of law... however, and this is part of our system... that IS part of rule of law)

    iow, the more you try to go against nature... it's part of nature too

  • ||

    but that is tangential to the fact that our system and ANY just legal system must respect rule of law

    Well, any just legal system treats all men equally, regardless of their position in that society. Therefore, our legal system, which arbitrarily treats policemen different than non-cops, is not just in my opinion.

    That is why you will never, ever get me to admit I am wrong.

    Obviously, we have different definitions of "just."

    And for what it's worth (MW online):

    just/jəst/
    Adjective:
    Based on or behaving according to what is morally right and fair: "a just society".

  • ||

    i also enjoyed the scare quotes around rioters btw.

  • ||

    The term is relative.

    But since you put it that way, I'll start referring to Ian Birk as a murderer instead of a "murderer." Does that satisfy you?

  • ||

    the term is not relative as per the mardi gras riots.

    are you even familiar with them, with SPD (in)action and with the kris kime killing?

  • ||

    The Patriots may very well blow the Broncos out of this game. It doesn't look like it, but it still may happen. And since I'm a Steelers fan, I really could care less.

    But, I really, really want the Broncos to win this game, and in convincing fashion, just to see if Tulpa goes on a three state killing spree.

  • ||

    Probably not. My gas budget is almost used up this month.

  • ||

    Nice piece. R.I.P Havel. And forgive me, but sometimes I like an AP sized obit.

  • ||

    Ooh, I found an AP-sized obit for you. I found it at the AP.

  • ||

    Thanks, but that was directed at my dear friend and former editor Matt. But thanks for the link.

  • Max||

    In the end, wasn't it Nancy Reagan's astrologer who defeated communism?

  • Maxxx||

    No, it was Barack Obama.

  • ||

    What the fuck? An illegal forward pass is 10 yards and an automatic 10 second runoff. How the fuck did the officials not even review that bullshit? The Patriots had no timeouts left, the guy made an illegal forward pass on the recovered muffed punt. That last score was bullshit.

  • ||

    Wow! You are right. Havel would be very upset about this situation.

  • ||

    I think you're looking for this thread.

  • Xenocles||

    I agree. It was pretty obvious on the replay, even for a Pats fan like me.

  • ||

    NFL/Patriots mafia alliance>Tebow ?

  • Xenocles||

    I think the conspiracy theories are a bit much. Are there any statistical analyses on the subject of the allocation of favorable bad calls ?

  • ||

    Watch the last 2 minutes of the Patriots/Redskins game from last week and get back with me.
    [adjust tinfoil hat]

  • Xenocles||

    Confirmation bias > Tebow?

  • ||

    Absolutely!

    Haha. I'm just kidding. I just hate the Patriots...especially after the way the beat my Steelers this year.

  • Xenocles||

    Did we watch the same Steelers/Pats game?

  • ||

    I think so. And there were no bad calls in that game. I'm just pissed that they beat the Steelers by playing Steelers football at the end.

  • Xenocles||

    Pats lost by 8, dude.

  • ||

    I know. My computer autocorrected "Ravens" to "Patriots."

    I'm an idiot.

  • .||

    You ARE an idiot, and a fag. Hows that workin out for ya?

  • ||

    No, I'm not gay but I am willing to learn. Would you send me someplace special?

  • BigT||

    SI had a feature on this a few months back. Refs cause home field advantage in all sports.

  • Auric Demonocles||

    Football home field is largely influenced by crowd noise.

  • Auric Demonocles||

    I don't think the 10 second run off applies when the clock would stop anyway (as it would for a change of possession). It definitely should have been called a penalty, but I don't think the end result would have changed except for the kick to have been further.

  • Professional Critic||

    Since the Pats could not advance a muffed punt by rule, there was no forward lateral.

  • ||

    Are you sure? I think I've seen a kicking team advance a muffed punt before.

  • Professional Critic||

    A fumbled punt can be advanced, where the receiving team actually had possession and then coughed it up. But if it's a straight drop, then no advance is allowed.

  • ||

    The illegal forward pass was inconsequential though, it was like half a yard. Technically it still is a foul but nothing to get terribly upset over.

  • ||

    Cuz orange crush[es] velvet underground.

  • Xenocles||

    Woodhead > Tebow.

  • Doktor Kapitalism||

    Havel > Tebow*

    *Who?

  • PantsFan||

    Apparently, this is a thing:

    Redemption Inc. is a new prime-time series in which a group of 10 ex-cons are given the opportunity of a lifetime: a chance to set up their own business under the guidance of Dragon and multi-millionaire businessman, Kevin O'Leary

  • ||

    I'd open up a milk bag distributorship and just watch the money roll in.

  • ||

    TEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW!!!!!!

  • Jerry||

    Call it the Rick Perry curse.

  • Lady Elaine||

    Should we talk about doing our nails and who the cute boys are?

  • Doktor Kapitalism||

    But they don't like you. Go talk to the jocks upthread.

  • ||

    Tulpa would. :-P

  • .||

    Episiarch|12.18.11 @ 5:03PM|#
    Fuck. I get back from tennis and the fucking Broncos are in the lead. At least the Seahawks won. Not that I care.

    The Patriots had better get their shit together.

    reply to this
    sloopyinca|12.18.11 @ 5:06PM|#
    And the Broncos have their first two-score lead of the season...I think.

    reply to this
    Episiarch|12.18.11 @ 5:30PM|#
    Hahahahaha...turnover to the Patriots and they're in the lead. I would have challenged that incomplete, though.

    reply to this
    sloopyinca|12.18.11 @ 5:37PM|#
    Need a stop on 4th here.

    reply to this
    Episiarch|12.18.11 @ 5:43PM|#
    Oh my god the look on Timmah's face after the Patriots scored again off his fumble was priceless.

    WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW TIM?

    reply to this
    sloopyinca|12.18.11 @ 5:45PM|#
    Tebow is pulling an Elliot Gould and just trying to up the odds at halftime. Then they'll bring in Spearchucker Jones and win it on a trick play.

    reply to this
    Tulpa|12.18.11 @ 5:55PM|#
    The Lord doesn't take kindly to presumption.

    reply to this
    sloopyinca|12.18.11 @ 6:00PM|#
    If I recall correctly, the 4077th also had an extra point attempt blocked and were down by two scores at halftime.

    Coincidence? We'll see.

    reply to this
    dunphy|12.18.11 @ 6:45PM|#
    spearchucker jones????

    RACIST!!!

    reply to this
    sloopyinca|12.18.11 @ 6:50PM|#
    Are the comments for the SPD/DoJ thread shut down? I thought for sure you'd respond to me there first.

    reply to this
    dunphy|12.18.11 @ 6:56PM|#
    am i required to respond to every post you make, especially if cop related?

    i've been busy... Xmas parties, etc. work, family, bla bla

    i pretty much made my point clear.

    assuming that the DOJ report is accurate, SPD should be fucking ashamed of itself , because even if those using excessive force are a realtively small # of cops, they apparently have done a shit poor job of disciplining and investigating same

    there is NO excuse for that.

    it's really that simple

    i've long said SPD is a mediocre (at best) PD and run by a bunch of spineless pieces of shit one after the other (kerlikowske, etc.)

    i'm just as concerned wiht their lack of response (e.g. mardi gras where somebody died and countless were injured) due to their admin's cowardice and refusal to engage rioters because it would look bad on CNN as i am about their excessive force on UOF's

    as for the profanity video that got those cops 15-20 days, i commented on that incident MONTHS ago when it actually happened

    iirc i was the one who first posted about it

    reply to this
    sloopyinca|12.18.11 @ 7:00PM|#
    Just so I'm clear: one of your main problems with SPD is that they don't engage "rioters?"

    And as far as the other story, the cops didn't "get" 15-20 days. They were suspended without pay for assault, threatening a man with violence, and falsifying arrest reports...all of which are crimes, not breaches of policy.

    But whatever, dude. Isolated incidents. A few bad apples. Etc. Etc.

    reply to this
    dunphy|12.18.11 @ 7:06PM|#
    my problems with SPD are many

    but yes, i think that when you have people rioting and SERIOUSLY INJURING AND KILLING innocents, you are morally and legally mandated, as a PD to DO SOMETHING

    SPD didn't

    that is 100% inexcusable

    it is one thing for some officers to engage in excessive force. SOME may have been actual choices to violate people, and other's may have been well intentioned officers overstepping their legal bounds and/or falling prey to emotion, etc.

    either way, that's wrong, it should be investigated and disciplined

    so, yes... incentivizing people to riot and kill other people and doing NOTHING via a policy set by a spineless admin IS a terrible terrible thing

    and the reason why -.... politics... is disgusting

    cops should try to do the right thing EVEN when it might look bad.

    did the DOJ report say WHAT PERCENTAGE of SPD cops engaged in UOF, and specifically repeated incidents of excessive UOF? if so, that would be helpful to see if it was or wasn't isolated iow a small # of cops doing most of the bad shit

    any cop knows when it comes to crime in general, it's a small %age of the population doing the vast majority of crime

    i woudl suspect the same is true in SPD and many other police agencies

    no agency could elminate excessive force, because cops are human and even if you had a 100% perfect screening process (impossible) and investigative process (impossible), it's still going to happen - but its going to happen LESS often

    20% is simply way too high to draw any conclusion except that SPD has done a shit poor job of investigating and disciplining (and screening wayward ) officers.

    heck, i know officers who have failed my dept's FTO program who ended up in SPD

    lol

    reply to this
    sloopyinca|12.18.11 @ 7:14PM|#
    did the DOJ report say WHAT PERCENTAGE of SPD cops engaged in UOF, and specifically repeated incidents of excessive UOF? if so, that would be helpful to see if it was or wasn't isolated iow a small # of cops doing most of the bad shit

    No, the DoJ didn't. Their report said they couldn't because of the culture of corruption in the investigative process, the systematic and intentional lack of self-reporting and the willful and flagrant disregard of UOF reports by the officers tapped to investigate them.

    IOW, they refused to report UOF, they refused to investigate civilian claims of UOF and they manipulated rules that said an officer's testimony could not be used to prosecute even admitted excessive force.

    either way, that's wrong, it should be investigated and disciplined

    No. It should be investigated and prosecuted, as it would for any non-cop.

    and the reason why -.... politics... is disgusting

    Um, you mean the union rules and their stranglehold on accountability for their own department.

    reply to this
    dunphy|12.18.11 @ 7:20PM|#
    look, sloopy, spare me the "as it would for any non-cop" stuff.

    I KNOW you believe it, but it's simply hogwash. a substantial %age would NOT be prosecuted, nor are most analogous to "non-cop" force incidents because most happen trying to stop crimes and/or in response to same, etc.

    most prosecutors (where i work) don't prosecute de minimus stuff and they don't prosecute stuff like the times when a group of citizens used "excessive force" to take a guy prowling their car into custody themselves, for example

    there is a difference between punching somebody because you don't like him, and striking somebody because you are trying to take him into custody, he resists and while his resistance doesn't justify a closed hand strike, it does justify force.

    20% included ALL such scenarios, and many are going to be like the latter.

    as for the last (the mardi gras riots) it had nothing to do with union rules. it had to do with a cowardly admin that did not want SPD cops seen on teevee hitting brown people with sticks, so they decided it would be better to let bad guys riot (subsequent video analyzed by the times, etc. showed about 85%+ to be 'persons of color' and they were criticized as being 'racist' for printing a video still, since it showed "persons of color" rioting) than to STOP THEM which is the job of the cops and people were very seriously injured and killed

    every police encounter practically involves choices made as to whether to use force, when, and how much. it is NOT easy, and cops can and will make mistakes

    however, the #'s in SPD and the failure to adequately discipline and respond are inexcusable

    reply to this
    dunphy|12.18.11 @ 7:14PM|#
    i also enjoyed the scare quotes around rioters btw.

    reply to this
    sloopyinca|12.18.11 @ 7:18PM|#
    The term is relative.

    But since you put it that way, I'll start referring to Ian Birk as a murderer instead of a "murderer." Does that satisfy you?

    reply to this
    sloopyinca|12.18.11 @ 5:04PM|#
    The Patriots may very well blow the Broncos out of this game. It doesn't look like it, but it still may happen. And since I'm a Steelers fan, I really could care less.

    But, I really, really want the Broncos to win this game, and in convincing fashion, just to see if Tulpa goes on a three state killing spree.

    reply to this
    Tulpa|12.18.11 @ 5:49PM|#
    Probably not. My gas budget is almost used up this month.

    reply to this
    Jim Lowney|12.18.11 @ 5:25PM|#
    Nice piece. R.I.P Havel. And forgive me, but sometimes I like an AP sized obit.

    reply to this
    sloopyinca|12.18.11 @ 5:28PM|#
    Ooh, I found an AP-sized obit for you. I found it at the AP.

    reply to this
    Jim Lowney|12.18.11 @ 5:51PM|#
    Thanks, but that was directed at my dear friend and former editor Matt. But thanks for the link.

    reply to this
    Max|12.18.11 @ 5:53PM|#
    In the end, wasn't it Nancy Reagan's astrologer who defeated communism?

    reply to this
    Maxxx|12.18.11 @ 6:27PM|#
    No, it was Barack Obama.

    reply to this
    sloopyinca|12.18.11 @ 5:56PM|#
    What the fuck? An illegal forward pass is 10 yards and an automatic 10 second runoff. How the fuck did the officials not even review that bullshit? The Patriots had no timeouts left, the guy made an illegal forward pass on the recovered muffed punt. That last score was bullshit.

    reply to this
    Jim Lowney|12.18.11 @ 6:13PM|#
    Wow! You are right. Havel would be very upset about this situation.

    reply to this
    sloopyinca|12.18.11 @ 6:23PM|#
    I think you're looking for this thread.

    reply to this
    Xenocles|12.18.11 @ 6:36PM|#
    I agree. It was pretty obvious on the replay, even for a Pats fan like me.

    reply to this
    sloopyinca|12.18.11 @ 6:40PM|#
    NFL/Patriots mafia alliance>Tebow ?

    reply to this
    Xenocles|12.18.11 @ 6:47PM|#
    I think the conspiracy theories are a bit much. Are there any statistical analyses on the subject of the allocation of favorable bad calls ?

    reply to this
    sloopyinca|12.18.11 @ 6:48PM|#
    Watch the last 2 minutes of the Patriots/Redskins game from last week and get back with me.
    [adjust tinfoil hat]

    reply to this
    Xenocles|12.18.11 @ 6:49PM|#
    Confirmation bias > Tebow?

    reply to this
    sloopyinca|12.18.11 @ 6:51PM|#
    Absolutely!

    Haha. I'm just kidding. I just hate the Patriots...especially after the way the beat my Steelers this year.

    reply to this
    Xenocles|12.18.11 @ 6:52PM|#
    Did we watch the same Steelers/Pats game?

    reply to this
    sloopyinca|12.18.11 @ 6:54PM|#
    I think so. And there were no bad calls in that game. I'm just pissed that they beat the Steelers by playing Steelers football at the end.

    reply to this
    Xenocles|12.18.11 @ 6:58PM|#
    Pats lost by 8, dude.

    reply to this
    sloopyinca|12.18.11 @ 7:02PM|#
    I know. My computer autocorrected "Ravens" to "Patriots."

    I'm an idiot.

    reply to this
    .|12.18.11 @ 7:13PM|#
    You ARE an idiot, and a fag. Hows that workin out for ya?

    reply to this
    sloopyinca|12.18.11 @ 7:19PM|#
    No, I'm not gay but I am willing to learn. Would you send me someplace special?

    reply to this
    BigT|12.18.11 @ 7:18PM|#
    SI had a feature on this a few months back. Refs cause home field advantage in all sports.

  • ||

    Rectal is just angry because her twinky and cum diet failed.

  • tarran||

    Actually, she's happy that it's a sausage fest; when banjos is on the board, that's when her claws come out.

  • ||

  • .||

    Shutup you raging bitch monster, nobody likes you and youll die alone.

  • ||

    I'm much more concerned with the fact that her nipples are either misshapen or they have been dismembered to fit into her suit.

  • El Commentariosa||

    I will need more photographs to study this further.

  • ||

  • ||

    Less stylized photographs of her chest are just as golden, dude -- they're big enough for a sumo wrestler to get lost in, AND they're real!

  • ||

    But the nipples, man! They're not all there. I demand more photographic evidence of the normality of her breast. And I want it now!

  • ||

    Serious question: are we allowed to link to topless photographs? No lower-body nudity -- just topless?

  • Brittanicus||

    US GOVERNMENT AGENCIES RUN BY RADICAL LIBERAL PROGRESSIVES.

    There is only one cure for the corruption in Washington and that is joining the TEA PARTY. Thousands of fraudulent programs will be exposed and billions of dollars will be saved. This confronts the rot that has entered the Democratic and the Republican parties, and the astronomical deficit that America is suffering from. Read some undisclosed evidence at Judicial Watch, a legal non-profit, and the opposite to the Communist backed ACLU; a panderer to the illegal alien invaders. In addition, NumbersUSA gives you in depth analysis of costs to taxpayers and insider news from Congress. Lastly, the controversial website of “American Patrol” gives you one-click Bridging editions to the nationwide media, where the truth prevails.

    Newt Gingrich, Presidential candidate has been found to be weak on illegal immigration. On NumbersUSA website he has a grade of (D-). Former speaker Gingrich is not a true TEA PARTY Leader. While his counterpart Mitt Romney has already opened the Pandora's Box on at his the National Hispanic Assembly conference, Romney said without mentioning Gingrich name, that finally, we must stop providing the incentives that encourage illegal immigration. As governor, I vetoed legislation that would have provided in-state tuition rates to illegal immigrants. Romney also emphasis of by completing the construction of a high-tech fence," Perhaps he has analyzed the weakness of the current single layer fence and not the double layer fence designed by Rep. Duncan Hunter in the President George Bush era. This was a corridor of information to inform the audience, that such things as tuition for illegal aliens, is against federal law and bypasses U.S. citizens who should always come first. This is similar situation when Mayors and other elected official say they are going to suppress assisting ICE, with the removal of every illegal alien under such laws as ‘Secure Communities’ or State recognized ‘E-Verify.’

    The flood of illegal workers almost certainly constitutes an invasion. The TEA PARTY will table any form of Amnesty or Immigration Reform and will apply the statutes in the 1986 Simpson/Mazzoli with strict enforcement according to the bill. Any Sanctuary City or State ordinances designed to cater to illegal aliens, will lose federal funding and expect ICE sweeps in the future. E-Verify and "Secure Communities" will no longer be a voluntary measure, but applied as a mandate to every state. The TEA PARTY will amend the 14th Amendment, so 300.000 children of illegal aliens annually can no longer obtain a foothold in America, to ransack the people's welfare programs and public assistance.

    1. Remember illegal aliens do vote in federal elections, and we all need to contact our politicians, to either issue an official to scrutinize voter rolls, or specifically absentee ballots.

    2. ISSUE a mandatory federal ID card, for all Americans, for voting at a minimal fee for the low income. This will end the fraudulent exposure of groups as Acorn and multiple registrations from the same people.

    3. Make illegal entry into the United States, punishable as a felony, not a civil offense.

    4. Build the real 2006 Double border Fence.

    5. The TEA PARTY will not tolerate illegal immigration or any form of amnesty, including Sanctuary cities, dream acts or covert enactments by disguising Immigration Reform.

    6. The TEA PARTY will support Arizona, Alabama, Georgia and other states against any retribution by the Democratic or Republican establishment.

    7. Stand with Arizona (the original voice of commonsense to halt illegal alien invaders; hold firm with Sheriff Joe Arpaio a strong advocate against the US government to control unfettered illegal immigration and the $113 Billion dollar cost of unfunded mandates for states.) Stan with Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina, Utah, and Indiana of the bludgeoning attacks by the Department of IN-Justice to curtail their policing laws, which have been enacted to stop the hemorrhaging of state treasuries in support of 20 million illegal aliens settled countrywide. IMPEACH LIBERAL ERIC HOLDER!

    There is nothing wrong with Lama Smiths E-Verify “the Legal Workforce Act." At the very least, it is a step in the right direction. Even if E-Verify has some flaws and some illegal aliens are able to obtain employment, it won't last very long. Those hired illegally will be caught eventually when the irregularities are corrected with the electronic verification program. It's better to have something as a deterrent, than to have nothing at all. E-Verify and to some extent ‘Secure Communities’ is an official order to fingerprint of all individuals who pass through booking halls of police precincts. This is all we have at this present time, to slow and finally end the hiring of illegal workers. E-Verify will place the burden firmly on every United States business, to check every new hire or be sanctioned, fined or even be imprisoned.

    Of course the usual radical voices are raised, as critics opposing this Historical Immigration Bill, H.R. 2885 are searching for any loophole to drag it down. They are using what inflammatory rhetoric or lies they can muster against the passage of E-Verify “the Legal Workforce Act." First they contest it that legal American workers could be turned away in being hired. So that person just addresses their grievances by going to their local Social security office; illegal aliens will stay well clear of this agency. None of the media will inform their readership of this? Learn more information at NumbersUSA. Other websites that will deliver the facts about the criminal element, with wide ranging access to the E-media is American Patrol. We can all stand with our fellow jobless countryman by Calling House and Senate Leadership NOW Call the Capitol Switchboard at 202-224-3121.

    Join a local TEA PARTY is end illegal immigration, the ruthless spread of the Liberal ‘Political Correctness’ agenda; restrict the giant growth of central government and return the power to sovereign states; dispatch the antiquated tax code for a flat tax, and equal for all, with no special privileges for the wealthy or giant corporations; listen to Donald Trump and tax goods from China, as they are taxing our products.

    Shocking News from American Patrol. Dot.com
    Madison Ruppert -- The Intel Hub

    Congress could vote to change the Internet forever shortly
    Tomorrow the House Judiciary Committee is going to vote on H.R.3261, the Stop Online Privacy Act, or SOPA for short. As I have previously outlined, this legislation would destroy the internet as we know it and severely impinge on free speech and the spread of information. -- If this passes committee, which all indications say it likely will, it could be voted on by the whole of the House of Representatives.

    NO COPYRIGHT EVER! DISTRIBUTE TO EVERY TAXPAYING AMERICAN.

  • ||

    I do not find your wall of text intriguing and wish to opt out of your newsletter.

  • Doktor Kapitalism||

    But but but ALL CAPS?!?!

  • tarran||

    Brittanicus, you incompetent fascist fuck, nobody is going to read your wall of text in the vicinity of pictures of hot women.

    Somewhere in hell Goebels is shrieking in rage at your utter incompetence or propagandizing.

  • ||

    US GOVERNMENT AGENCIES RUN BY RADICAL LIBERAL PROGRESSIVES.

    So what's the problem?

  • Xenocles||

    Tebow > rather

  • Xenocles||

    I don't see what my dick has to do with it.

  • .||

    Episiarch|12.18.11 @ 5:03PM|#
    Fuck. I get back from tennis and the fucking Broncos are in the lead. At least the Seahawks won. Not that I care.

    The Patriots had better get their shit together.

    reply to this
    sloopyinca|12.18.11 @ 5:06PM|#
    And the Broncos have their first two-score lead of the season...I think.

    reply to this
    Episiarch|12.18.11 @ 5:30PM|#
    Hahahahaha...turnover to the Patriots and they're in the lead. I would have challenged that incomplete, though.

    reply to this
    sloopyinca|12.18.11 @ 5:37PM|#
    Need a stop on 4th here.

    reply to this
    Episiarch|12.18.11 @ 5:43PM|#
    Oh my god the look on Timmah's face after the Patriots scored again off his fumble was priceless.

    WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW TIM?

    reply to this
    sloopyinca|12.18.11 @ 5:45PM|#
    Tebow is pulling an Elliot Gould and just trying to up the odds at halftime. Then they'll bring in Spearchucker Jones and win it on a trick play.

    reply to this
    Tulpa|12.18.11 @ 5:55PM|#
    The Lord doesn't take kindly to presumption.

    reply to this
    sloopyinca|12.18.11 @ 6:00PM|#
    If I recall correctly, the 4077th also had an extra point attempt blocked and were down by two scores at halftime.

    Coincidence? We'll see.

    reply to this
    dunphy|12.18.11 @ 6:45PM|#
    spearchucker jones????

    RACIST!!!

    reply to this
    sloopyinca|12.18.11 @ 6:50PM|#
    Are the comments for the SPD/DoJ thread shut down? I thought for sure you'd respond to me there first.

    reply to this
    dunphy|12.18.11 @ 6:56PM|#
    am i required to respond to every post you make, especially if cop related?

    i've been busy... Xmas parties, etc. work, family, bla bla

    i pretty much made my point clear.

    assuming that the DOJ report is accurate, SPD should be fucking ashamed of itself , because even if those using excessive force are a realtively small # of cops, they apparently have done a shit poor job of disciplining and investigating same

    there is NO excuse for that.

    it's really that simple

    i've long said SPD is a mediocre (at best) PD and run by a bunch of spineless pieces of shit one after the other (kerlikowske, etc.)

    i'm just as concerned wiht their lack of response (e.g. mardi gras where somebody died and countless were injured) due to their admin's cowardice and refusal to engage rioters because it would look bad on CNN as i am about their excessive force on UOF's

    as for the profanity video that got those cops 15-20 days, i commented on that incident MONTHS ago when it actually happened

    iirc i was the one who first posted about it

    reply to this
    sloopyinca|12.18.11 @ 7:00PM|#
    Just so I'm clear: one of your main problems with SPD is that they don't engage "rioters?"

    And as far as the other story, the cops didn't "get" 15-20 days. They were suspended without pay for assault, threatening a man with violence, and falsifying arrest reports...all of which are crimes, not breaches of policy.

    But whatever, dude. Isolated incidents. A few bad apples. Etc. Etc.

    reply to this
    dunphy|12.18.11 @ 7:06PM|#
    my problems with SPD are many

    but yes, i think that when you have people rioting and SERIOUSLY INJURING AND KILLING innocents, you are morally and legally mandated, as a PD to DO SOMETHING

    SPD didn't

    that is 100% inexcusable

    it is one thing for some officers to engage in excessive force. SOME may have been actual choices to violate people, and other's may have been well intentioned officers overstepping their legal bounds and/or falling prey to emotion, etc.

    either way, that's wrong, it should be investigated and disciplined

    so, yes... incentivizing people to riot and kill other people and doing NOTHING via a policy set by a spineless admin IS a terrible terrible thing

    and the reason why -.... politics... is disgusting

    cops should try to do the right thing EVEN when it might look bad.

    did the DOJ report say WHAT PERCENTAGE of SPD cops engaged in UOF, and specifically repeated incidents of excessive UOF? if so, that would be helpful to see if it was or wasn't isolated iow a small # of cops doing most of the bad shit

    any cop knows when it comes to crime in general, it's a small %age of the population doing the vast majority of crime

    i woudl suspect the same is true in SPD and many other police agencies

    no agency could elminate excessive force, because cops are human and even if you had a 100% perfect screening process (impossible) and investigative process (impossible), it's still going to happen - but its going to happen LESS often

    20% is simply way too high to draw any conclusion except that SPD has done a shit poor job of investigating and disciplining (and screening wayward ) officers.

    heck, i know officers who have failed my dept's FTO program who ended up in SPD

    lol

    reply to this
    sloopyinca|12.18.11 @ 7:14PM|#
    did the DOJ report say WHAT PERCENTAGE of SPD cops engaged in UOF, and specifically repeated incidents of excessive UOF? if so, that would be helpful to see if it was or wasn't isolated iow a small # of cops doing most of the bad shit

    No, the DoJ didn't. Their report said they couldn't because of the culture of corruption in the investigative process, the systematic and intentional lack of self-reporting and the willful and flagrant disregard of UOF reports by the officers tapped to investigate them.

    IOW, they refused to report UOF, they refused to investigate civilian claims of UOF and they manipulated rules that said an officer's testimony could not be used to prosecute even admitted excessive force.

    either way, that's wrong, it should be investigated and disciplined

    No. It should be investigated and prosecuted, as it would for any non-cop.

    and the reason why -.... politics... is disgusting

    Um, you mean the union rules and their stranglehold on accountability for their own department.

    reply to this
    dunphy|12.18.11 @ 7:20PM|#
    look, sloopy, spare me the "as it would for any non-cop" stuff.

    I KNOW you believe it, but it's simply hogwash. a substantial %age would NOT be prosecuted, nor are most analogous to "non-cop" force incidents because most happen trying to stop crimes and/or in response to same, etc.

    most prosecutors (where i work) don't prosecute de minimus stuff and they don't prosecute stuff like the times when a group of citizens used "excessive force" to take a guy prowling their car into custody themselves, for example

    there is a difference between punching somebody because you don't like him, and striking somebody because you are trying to take him into custody, he resists and while his resistance doesn't justify a closed hand strike, it does justify force.

    20% included ALL such scenarios, and many are going to be like the latter.

    as for the last (the mardi gras riots) it had nothing to do with union rules. it had to do with a cowardly admin that did not want SPD cops seen on teevee hitting brown people with sticks, so they decided it would be better to let bad guys riot (subsequent video analyzed by the times, etc. showed about 85%+ to be 'persons of color' and they were criticized as being 'racist' for printing a video still, since it showed "persons of color" rioting) than to STOP THEM which is the job of the cops and people were very seriously injured and killed

    every police encounter practically involves choices made as to whether to use force, when, and how much. it is NOT easy, and cops can and will make mistakes

    however, the #'s in SPD and the failure to adequately discipline and respond are inexcusable

    reply to this
    dunphy|12.18.11 @ 7:14PM|#
    i also enjoyed the scare quotes around rioters btw.

    reply to this
    sloopyinca|12.18.11 @ 7:18PM|#
    The term is relative.

    But since you put it that way, I'll start referring to Ian Birk as a murderer instead of a "murderer." Does that satisfy you?

    reply to this
    sloopyinca|12.18.11 @ 5:04PM|#
    The Patriots may very well blow the Broncos out of this game. It doesn't look like it, but it still may happen. And since I'm a Steelers fan, I really could care less.

    But, I really, really want the Broncos to win this game, and in convincing fashion, just to see if Tulpa goes on a three state killing spree.

    reply to this
    Tulpa|12.18.11 @ 5:49PM|#
    Probably not. My gas budget is almost used up this month.

    reply to this
    Jim Lowney|12.18.11 @ 5:25PM|#
    Nice piece. R.I.P Havel. And forgive me, but sometimes I like an AP sized obit.

    reply to this
    sloopyinca|12.18.11 @ 5:28PM|#
    Ooh, I found an AP-sized obit for you. I found it at the AP.

    reply to this
    Jim Lowney|12.18.11 @ 5:51PM|#
    Thanks, but that was directed at my dear friend and former editor Matt. But thanks for the link.

    reply to this
    Max|12.18.11 @ 5:53PM|#
    In the end, wasn't it Nancy Reagan's astrologer who defeated communism?

    reply to this
    Maxxx|12.18.11 @ 6:27PM|#
    No, it was Barack Obama.

    reply to this
    sloopyinca|12.18.11 @ 5:56PM|#
    What the fuck? An illegal forward pass is 10 yards and an automatic 10 second runoff. How the fuck did the officials not even review that bullshit? The Patriots had no timeouts left, the guy made an illegal forward pass on the recovered muffed punt. That last score was bullshit.

    reply to this
    Jim Lowney|12.18.11 @ 6:13PM|#
    Wow! You are right. Havel would be very upset about this situation.

    reply to this
    sloopyinca|12.18.11 @ 6:23PM|#
    I think you're looking for this thread.

    reply to this
    Xenocles|12.18.11 @ 6:36PM|#
    I agree. It was pretty obvious on the replay, even for a Pats fan like me.

    reply to this
    sloopyinca|12.18.11 @ 6:40PM|#
    NFL/Patriots mafia alliance>Tebow ?

    reply to this
    Xenocles|12.18.11 @ 6:47PM|#
    I think the conspiracy theories are a bit much. Are there any statistical analyses on the subject of the allocation of favorable bad calls ?

    reply to this
    sloopyinca|12.18.11 @ 6:48PM|#
    Watch the last 2 minutes of the Patriots/Redskins game from last week and get back with me.
    [adjust tinfoil hat]

    reply to this
    Xenocles|12.18.11 @ 6:49PM|#
    Confirmation bias > Tebow?

    reply to this
    sloopyinca|12.18.11 @ 6:51PM|#
    Absolutely!

    Haha. I'm just kidding. I just hate the Patriots...especially after the way the beat my Steelers this year.

    reply to this
    Xenocles|12.18.11 @ 6:52PM|#
    Did we watch the same Steelers/Pats game?

    reply to this
    sloopyinca|12.18.11 @ 6:54PM|#
    I think so. And there were no bad calls in that game. I'm just pissed that they beat the Steelers by playing Steelers football at the end.

    reply to this
    Xenocles|12.18.11 @ 6:58PM|#
    Pats lost by 8, dude.

    reply to this
    sloopyinca|12.18.11 @ 7:02PM|#
    I know. My computer autocorrected "Ravens" to "Patriots."

    I'm an idiot.

    reply to this
    .|12.18.11 @ 7:13PM|#
    You ARE an idiot, and a fag. Hows that workin out for ya?

    reply to this
    sloopyinca|12.18.11 @ 7:19PM|#
    No, I'm not gay but I am willing to learn. Would you send me someplace special?

    reply to this
    BigT|12.18.11 @ 7:18PM|#
    SI had a feature on this a few months back. Refs cause home field advantage in all sports.

  • Doktor Kapitalism||

    Tebow > .

    This is worse than FoE's liveblogging, and that's saying something.

  • ||

    Tebow was just Tebowing! I kinda wanted to see the Broncos win today.

  • Brittanicus||

    US GOVERNMENT AGENCIES RUN BY RADICAL LIBERAL PROGRESSIVES.

    There is only one cure for the corruption in Washington and that is joining the TEA PARTY. Thousands of fraudulent programs will be exposed and billions of dollars will be saved. This confronts the rot that has entered the Democratic and the Republican parties, and the astronomical deficit that America is suffering from. Read some undisclosed evidence at Judicial Watch, a legal non-profit, and the opposite to the Communist backed ACLU; a panderer to the illegal alien invaders. In addition, NumbersUSA gives you in depth analysis of costs to taxpayers and insider news from Congress. Lastly, the controversial website of “American Patrol” gives you one-click Bridging editions to the nationwide media, where the truth prevails.

    Newt Gingrich, Presidential candidate has been found to be weak on illegal immigration. On NumbersUSA website he has a grade of (D-). Former speaker Gingrich is not a true TEA PARTY Leader. While his counterpart Mitt Romney has already opened the Pandora's Box on at his the National Hispanic Assembly conference, Romney said without mentioning Gingrich name, that finally, we must stop providing the incentives that encourage illegal immigration. As governor, I vetoed legislation that would have provided in-state tuition rates to illegal immigrants. Romney also emphasis of by completing the construction of a high-tech fence," Perhaps he has analyzed the weakness of the current single layer fence and not the double layer fence designed by Rep. Duncan Hunter in the President George Bush era. This was a corridor of information to inform the audience, that such things as tuition for illegal aliens, is against federal law and bypasses U.S. citizens who should always come first. This is similar situation when Mayors and other elected official say they are going to suppress assisting ICE, with the removal of every illegal alien under such laws as ‘Secure Communities’ or State recognized ‘E-Verify.’

    The flood of illegal workers almost certainly constitutes an invasion. The TEA PARTY will table any form of Amnesty or Immigration Reform and will apply the statutes in the 1986 Simpson/Mazzoli with strict enforcement according to the bill. Any Sanctuary City or State ordinances designed to cater to illegal aliens, will lose federal funding and expect ICE sweeps in the future. E-Verify and "Secure Communities" will no longer be a voluntary measure, but applied as a mandate to every state. The TEA PARTY will amend the 14th Amendment, so 300.000 children of illegal aliens annually can no longer obtain a foothold in America, to ransack the people's welfare programs and public assistance.

    1. Remember illegal aliens do vote in federal elections, and we all need to contact our politicians, to either issue an official to scrutinize voter rolls, or specifically absentee ballots.

    2. ISSUE a mandatory federal ID card, for all Americans, for voting at a minimal fee for the low income. This will end the fraudulent exposure of groups as Acorn and multiple registrations from the same people.

    3. Make illegal entry into the United States, punishable as a felony, not a civil offense.

    4. Build the real 2006 Double border Fence.

    5. The TEA PARTY will not tolerate illegal immigration or any form of amnesty, including Sanctuary cities, dream acts or covert enactments by disguising Immigration Reform.

    6. The TEA PARTY will support Arizona, Alabama, Georgia and other states against any retribution by the Democratic or Republican establishment.

    7. Stand with Arizona (the original voice of commonsense to halt illegal alien invaders; hold firm with Sheriff Joe Arpaio a strong advocate against the US government to control unfettered illegal immigration and the $113 Billion dollar cost of unfunded mandates for states.) Stan with Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina, Utah, and Indiana of the bludgeoning attacks by the Department of IN-Justice to curtail their policing laws, which have been enacted to stop the hemorrhaging of state treasuries in support of 20 million illegal aliens settled countrywide. IMPEACH LIBERAL ERIC HOLDER!

    There is nothing wrong with Lama Smiths E-Verify “the Legal Workforce Act." At the very least, it is a step in the right direction. Even if E-Verify has some flaws and some illegal aliens are able to obtain employment, it won't last very long. Those hired illegally will be caught eventually when the irregularities are corrected with the electronic verification program. It's better to have something as a deterrent, than to have nothing at all. E-Verify and to some extent ‘Secure Communities’ is an official order to fingerprint of all individuals who pass through booking halls of police precincts. This is all we have at this present time, to slow and finally end the hiring of illegal workers. E-Verify will place the burden firmly on every United States business, to check every new hire or be sanctioned, fined or even be imprisoned.

    Of course the usual radical voices are raised, as critics opposing this Historical Immigration Bill, H.R. 2885 are searching for any loophole to drag it down. They are using what inflammatory rhetoric or lies they can muster against the passage of E-Verify “the Legal Workforce Act." First they contest it that legal American workers could be turned away in being hired. So that person just addresses their grievances by going to their local Social security office; illegal aliens will stay well clear of this agency. None of the media will inform their readership of this? Learn more information at NumbersUSA. Other websites that will deliver the facts about the criminal element, with wide ranging access to the E-media is American Patrol. We can all stand with our fellow jobless countryman by Calling House and Senate Leadership NOW Call the Capitol Switchboard at 202-224-3121.

    Join a local TEA PARTY is end illegal immigration, the ruthless spread of the Liberal ‘Political Correctness’ agenda; restrict the giant growth of central government and return the power to sovereign states; dispatch the antiquated tax code for a flat tax, and equal for all, with no special privileges for the wealthy or giant corporations; listen to Donald Trump and tax goods from China, as they are taxing our products.

    Shocking News from American Patrol. Dot.com
    Madison Ruppert -- The Intel Hub

    Congress could vote to change the Internet forever shortly
    Tomorrow the House Judiciary Committee is going to vote on H.R.3261, the Stop Online Privacy Act, or SOPA for short. As I have previously outlined, this legislation would destroy the internet as we know it and severely impinge on free speech and the spread of information. -- If this passes committee, which all indications say it likely will, it could be voted on by the whole of the House of Representatives.

    NO COPYRIGHT EVER! DISTRIBUTE TO EVERY TAXPAYING AMERICAN.

  • Doktor Kapitalism||

    Mkay...

  • Sevo||

    Brittanicus|12.18.11 @ 7:27PM|#
    ..."There is only one cure for the corruption in Washington and that is joining the TEA PARTY...."

    The Libertarian Party probably disagrees.

  • tarran||

    I am intrigued that Brittanicus supports listening to Donald Trump, a man who enthusiastically endorsed Obama in the last election.

    Brittanicus

  • tarran||

    er... Britanicus << Tebow

  • ||

    The trolls fucked up the threading, so Sloopy, here's where we left off:

    Serious question: are we allowed to link to topless photographs? No lower-body nudity -- just topless?

  • ||

    On the weekends, I'd say it's OK...if you tag it with NSFW. During the week, I'd say probably not.

    Of course, with "reasonable," it almost renders NSFW irrelevant. But I'll be best able to answer that on a pic by pic basis.

  • Brittanicus||

    Not trolling, spreading information.

    Sorry for wall of text, but this is a big outreach this weekend to stand with the TEA PARTY against the Establishment, in order to stem the Illegal Invasion.

    Only the TEA PARTY has a plan and the willingness to implement it that will secure our borders and preserve American jobs for American Citizens at living wages.

    SAY NO TO LIBERAL PROGRESSIVISM! DEFEAT THE PELOSI/REID/ACORN AGENDA TO ALLOW MILLIONS OF ILLEGALS TO VOTE!

  • Auric Demonocles||

    Nope, it's trolling.

  • Brittanicus||

    So you support the Pelosi/Reid/Acorn liberal progressive agenda? I assumed that on a website called "Reason" people would have some.

  • ||

    1) Your "jobs" bullshit indicates you don't understand how domestic and foreign markets interact, and no offense, but I'm not so sure you're much of an actual capitalist, or Tea Partier even, yourself.

    2) Believing in genuine free-market capitalism is a sign of support for progressive agendas and a demonstrates a lack of reason? k

  • Sevo||

    Brittanicus|12.18.11 @ 7:49PM|#
    "So you support the Pelosi/Reid/Acorn liberal progressive agenda?"

    You betta off without false dichotomies. You'll get called on bullshit pretty quickly.

  • ||

    Hey, dildo-dick. Arbitrarily denying basic human rights because someone crosses a border is both immoral and moronic.

  • ||

    Isn't it funny how the vast majority of Tea Partiers I know want to loosen immigration laws significantly, but make sure everybody is treated equally under those new standards, screening criminals effectively AND letting law-abiding people through?

  • ||

    Hey, dude, I'm a blood-boil-grade patriot myself, but I'm not not much of a let's-lock-the-border-down guy -- sorry!

  • Sevo||

    Brittanicus|12.18.11 @ 7:42PM|#
    ..."preserve American jobs for American Citizens at living wages."

    Oh, boy!
    "American jobs"? "Living wages"?
    Definitions missing...

  • Brittanicus||

    American jobs are any jobs physically located in the United States. Those jobs, as a matter of common sense, belong to American citizens, not illegals. Illegals should only have jobs once every single American citizen who wishes full employment has a job. This really isn't that hard to figure out.

    This is why nobody takes libertarianism seriously; you claim to be conservative, but wish to have a "race to the bottom" by giving all our jobs to low-wage illegals, leaving American families out in the cold.

  • ||

    Except it doesn't work that way -- what you're proposing has been butt-fucking the vitality and effectiveness out of economies in record since the beginning of the 20th century, and nobody wants more of that shit. It just doesn't fly.

    And I don't claim to be conservative. I'm a Jeffersonian republican. My allegiance is to liberty. I don't give two shits about your fence on the border, or your ultra-protectionistic crap. Take that to the RNC, and they'll probably give you a job.

  • Brittanicus||

    Nonsense; Europe was much better off economically before they started letting all the middle easterners and Africans in.

    Its about culture. The former waves of immigrants here were European Christians. They shared our same basic values and work ethic.

    Hispanics do not. They simply come from a different culture, where it is acceptable and even normal to be lazy and for everything to be shitty and run-down, for crimes to go unsolved, and for corruption to be rampant. They accept these things, and they will import that society here, because their culture is not compatible with ours.

  • Sevo||

    Brittanicus|12.18.11 @ 8:21PM|#
    "Hispanics [...] simply come from a different culture, where it is acceptable and even normal to be lazy and for everything to be shitty and run-down, for crimes to go unsolved, and for corruption to be rampant. They accept these things, and they will import that society here, because their culture is not compatible with ours."

    Hey, it doesn't take long to shake out the racism, does it?
    I doubt Brittanicus has ever seen harvest in the Salinas valley.

  • ||

    I doubt Brittanicus has ever seen harvest in the Salinas valley.

    I have. And there's no way in hell I could do it for the wage they are willing to do it for.

  • Sevo||

    BTW, I drive through the valley at least twice a year, and as a rough proxy of prosperity, you can take a look at the farm worker's vehicles parked at the farms.
    Times look pretty good the last year or so; no more rusted-out '75 GM pickups.

  • American Jews||

    Its about culture. The former waves of immigrants here were European Christians. They shared our same basic values and work ethic.

    What are we, chopped liver?

  • Sevo||

    Brittanicus|12.18.11 @ 8:05PM|#
    "American jobs are any jobs physically located in the United States. Those jobs, as a matter of common sense, belong to American citizens, not illegals. Illegals should only have jobs once every single American citizen who wishes full employment has a job. This really isn't that hard to figure out."

    Nope, not hard to 'figure out' that you're pushing for a brand-new federal agency devoted to deciding who can work where. Just what we need.
    And to be clear, jobs don't "belong" to anyone other than the one doing the hiring.
    ---------------
    "This is why nobody takes libertarianism seriously; you claim to be conservative, but wish to have a "race to the bottom" by giving all our jobs to low-wage illegals, leaving American families out in the cold."

    This is why libertarians laugh at supposed 'conservatives' dedicated to expanding government control over human activities.
    Oh, and your "race to the bottom" is taken directly from the Pelosi et al bloc you claim to oppose.
    You're not fooling anyone. You're no "conservative", just one more rent seeker hoping to get your cut. In all likelihood, the only difference is that you're not as ugly as Pelosi.

  • Brittanicus||

    Even a broken clock is right twice a day, if Pelosi used that phrase.

    I'm not a rent-seeker; I don't want welfare or foodstamps. Those things should be ended. But it is not right to force Americans to compete with Illegals. It doesn't matter how much they are willing to work for or who is willing to hire them, JOBS ARE NOT FOR FOREIGNERS. It's the free market; if something cann't be done economically with the labor force at hand, then it should not be done. What your trying to do is circumvent the free market by flooding it with an influx of ultra-cheap labor, to artificially increase the supply of an item (labor) in order to lower its cost. That is market manipulation, which this site claims to oppose.

  • ||

    Wow. Your first two sentences showed so much promise. Then you had to go shove your head in your asshole to type the rest.

    And how do you call a market "free" when you exclude people from it because of where they were born? You, sir, are a fucking retard.

  • Sevo||

    Brittanicus|12.18.11 @ 8:25PM|#
    "I'm not a rent-seeker; I don't want welfare or foodstamps"

    Uh, you need to learn what words mean.
    You may not want what you call 'welfare'; you just want the power of the government to reserve jobs for those who can't compete for them.
    That's rent seeking; couldn't be a better example.

  • ||

    Sloopy (with his trickster response to this guy) and my eyes have GOT to be fucking with my head, because there's no way in hell you just wrote that shit and meant it seriously -- competition and free market functionality = not free market?

  • ||

    They are. This was his first two sentences: I'm not a rent-seeker; I don't want welfare or foodstamps. Those things should be ended.

  • Sevo||

    Oh, and I'm dying to read the definition of "living wage".
    Actually, I'm not...

  • Brittanicus||

    And there isn't an exact definition of a "living wage" because it would have to be adjusted for cost of living by location.

    Suffice it to say, I'm confident wages for actual Americans would be much, much higher if the millions of jobs being taken by Illegals were available to them.

  • Sevo||

    Brittanicus|12.18.11 @ 8:27PM|#
    ..."Suffice it to say, I'm confident wages for actual Americans would be much, much higher if the millions of jobs being taken by Illegals were available to them."

    You bet! Government control over who can work where is just bound to raise the wages of those who can then find work!
    You're falling further over the edge here.

  • ||

    Do you even understand how wage changes work? Do you even understand what happens when 100 guys in a corporate building working for a large oil company hire 100 native-born Americans and pay them just slightly more than they did the 100 whose places they took?

  • Slap the Enlightened!||

  • ||

    Alright, Sloopy, tell me if this is acceptable according to the Sloopy Scale of Approval and Permissibility (tm):

    http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/9959/784jp.jpg

  • ||

    That's just gratuitous. And while it gets my seal of approval, it falls outside the realm of "permissible."*

    *Requires the NSFW tag. Please try again.

  • ||

    THE ABOVE LINK IS NOT SAFE FOR WORK -- YOUR BOSS WILL FRY YOUR ASS FOR WATCHING PORN ON COMPANY PCs AND TIME.

  • ||

    Better. And while I am re-viewing the pic whilst in my bunk, I've got to look out for our brethren and sistern who are stuck on the clock.

    Once more, but with the requisite NSFW, please.

  • ||

    ANOTHER one? Man, you people are DEMANDING! It's almost like an Occutard being forced to, like, help mom with the LAUNDRY!

    NOT SAFE FOR WORK -- DON'T BLAME ME IF YOUR BOSS BEATS THE SHIT OUT OF YOU WITH A CANE.

    http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/5169/785q.jpg

  • ||

    My name is sloopyinca and I approve this message.

  • ||

    Note how no digital alteration/"fix-ups" on her body, and the magical, awesome super-zoom to examine details -- you could probably get away with this at work if you're an anatomist

  • ||

  • ||

    Screw soccer -- the peach is WAY more fun than soccer stadiums!

    NSFW

    http://img191.imageshack.us/im.....ytr432.jpg

  • ||

    *beach

  • ||

    Not even a freaking "I'll be in my bunk"? I feel so unappreciated.

  • Apatheist||

    I was too busy being in my bunk to comment.

  • ||

    The following pic is NSFW. Please do not click this link because it contains titties.

  • ||

    See how that works?

  • ||

    My variant has more wholly unnecessary capitalizations! I WIN!

  • ||

    Can't we all win with these pics?

  • ||

    You mean pics like (NOT SAFE FOR WORK!!!(!(!(!(!!(!!) this?

    http://img819.imageshack.us/im.....etyu90.jpg

  • ||

    Oh, that's SFW. Just like this is SFW.

  • ||

    And this must be borderline, right?

    http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/8569/793tv.jpg

  • El Commentariosa||

    Ah the hand bra.

  • ||

    That's not a hand bra.

    This is a hand bra.

  • ||

  • ||

    No nudity...it's good!

  • Gojira||

    Ah, I'm just in time to partake of my favorite game!

    Blanket disclaimer; nothing I post is ever SFW.

  • ||

    Asian Foot Fetish? Really, Jim?

  • ||

  • ||

    Do you have something against winter sports?

  • ||

    That definitely ain't safe for work

    NSFW NSFW NSFW NSFW NSFW NSFW NSFW NSFW

    For anybody that might want to click Sloopy's last link!

  • ||

  • Gojira||

    I just rubbed one out thinking about this one.

    Not that I'd kick this one out of bed though.

  • ||

    Jim, you gotta open the pic in a new tab and then copy/paste that link. Otherwise, it becomes too much work.

  • Gojira||

    Seriously? It just opens right to the pic when I do it.

    Well all I was going to do was copy and paste a bunch of hot Asian chicks. I like Asian chicks.

  • ||

  • ||

  • ||

    Caption contest: sloopy's dick is thiiiiiis big!"

  • Gojira||

    Oh, and if you boys want a real delight, google images for "hot college football chicks".

  • ||

  • Gojira||

    Funny; I actually have that exact USC pic saved somewhere on my 'puter.

    If you go to yahoo.com, sports, NCAAF, and click on the message board link, there's a lively community there. They have "hot chick" days where all they do is post hot women.

  • ||

    Dude, that's uncomfortably, uselessly, fuck-up-your-sex-life huge, unless you like horses

    Wait, you're a zoophile? I'm reporting you to Obama!

  • ||

    Jesus. I hope you don't have kids.

  • ||

    http://data.imagup.com/12/1127560507.gif

    I hope she never has kids -- it might ruin those balloons

  • El Commentariosa||

    There was a lot of work done on that photo.

  • ||

    Pretty sure the entire point of that particular shoot was no digital modification. What do thy eyes see?

  • El Commentariosa||

    Let me clarify. There was a lot of work done before the photo was taken.

  • ||

    Hurumph -- cynics!

  • ||

    Are you putting down Twisted Sister?

    And considering that most of the Muslim world has now freely elected Islamists, isn't a bit ridiculous crowing about how Western pop culture has won them over?

  • ||

    All this there's-no-problem-whatsoever-they're-just-misunderstood bullshit a lot of progressives spew about Islam = contaminates libertarians. These people 1) either don't give a shit, or 2) want militant theocracy. That's something all these multiculturalists are going to have to get to grips with sooner or later.

    Does that mean war? Fuck no. That's where the Republican block fucks up firmly.

  • ||

    We need to get serious for a minute.

    Any news out of the European Union debt crisis today?

  • ||

  • Sevo||

    sloopyinca|12.18.11 @ 8:13PM|#
    "We need to get serious for a minute.
    Any news out of the European Union debt crisis today?"

    I drug out "Post War" (Judt) since it has a clear (and moving) explanation of Havel's effect on the collapse of communism, and it seemed a good idea to read it again.
    And then wandered on to this regarding *that* collapse which seems applicable:
    "In practice, the only way to stock the shelves in the East [the communist block] was to borrow money from the West"...
    "In the course of the '70s [...] Poland's hard-currency debt had increased some 3,000%"...
    "...their message was clear: [T]he communist system was not just living not just on loans but on borrowed time."...
    (pp. 582-583)
    Substitute "benefits" for "stock the shelves", and I think you've got it. It's not going away.

  • ||

    Wow, guys. I just wanted to post that pic.

  • ||

    Wanna play with flags, eh? Well, TAKE THIS

    http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/1669/e45ki.jpg

    SFW

  • ||

    Yah, Argentina!

  • ||

  • ||

  • El Commentariosa||

  • ||

  • ||

  • Sevo||

    I didn't bother to click on your link; I thought you were 'serious'.

  • Ted S.||

    Am I the only one who thinks it's kind of tacky for people to use Havel's death to flog their book? ;-)

  • LibertyAtStake||

    The Kinks were much better than the Beatles. VU was good, too.

    d(^_^)b
    http://libertyatstake.blogspot.com/
    "Because the Only Good Progressive is a Failed Progressive"

  • Focus, Schmocus||

    Hey Matt and Nick, don'tcha love it how a serious (well, serious for libertarians) essay on how pop music overthrows tyranny and dictatorships and communism itself gets immediately hijacked by Star Trek references and football chat? Do you ever feel like just chucking this Professional Libertarian thing like Virginia Postrell did?

  • ||

    Ooh, drink!!!!

  • ||

    Yeah, 1,000 identical posts reading, essentially, "RIP Havel and yeah awesome article!!!!!!" are better, right?

  • ||

    Did you ever think about chucking this whole passive aggressive, "I'm judging you because I secretly have low self esteem" thing?

    No wait, that's all you have isn't it?

  • ||

    Did you ever think about chucking this whole passive aggressive, "I'm judging you because I secretly have low self esteem" thing?

    No wait, that's all you have isn't it?

    Please don't be directed at me. Please don't be directed at me.

  • ||

    We're only three levels into the threading, learn how this shit works!!!

  • El Commentariosa||

    This overthrew a lot of classrooms

  • Gojira||

    Not nearly as many as this did.

  • Almanian||

    JIMMEH!

  • Almanian||

    Lions > Raiders

    Tebow < Patriots

    Bolts and Ugly Birds --> really, REALLY hard to care, but I'm watching cause it's football.

    It's Lions all the way down, bitches. I think that's the Seventh Sign™, so you all better get right with your maker, cause he/she/it is comin' if the Leos make the playoffs.

  • ||

  • Almanian||

    WE WILL NEVER FORGET!

  • ||

    Kim Jong Il>Tim Tebow>Matt Millen.

  • ||

    Kim Jong Il>Tim Tebow>Matt Millen.

  • ||

    Just like the world ended in 1999 and 1998?

  • Old Mexican||

    Re: rather,

    Holy shit, is this boy day on reasdon?
    #1 Startrek
    #2 football
    #3 Astroglide
    #4 Dumbass Tebow jokes < Tebow


    That's because we don't talk about:

    #1 Librarians, and
    #2 Whoring with librarians.

    Those are more up your alley...

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    That's because we don't talk about:

    #1 Librarians, and
    #2 Whoring with librarians.

    Those are more up your alley...

    What's the librarian/rather connection? I must have missed that day.

  • PantsFan||

  • Almanian||

    And yet, the Lions live on.

    Verily it is a sign.

  • Professional Critic||

    LIP, Dear Reader.

  • Almanian||

    +lun

  • ||

    That is actually funny.

  • ||

    Shouldn't it be "Deal Readel"?

  • ||

    He is ronery no more.

  • ||

    Died of "mental exertion", according to NK State TV.

  • Almanian||

    Do you know how fucking BUSY he was?

  • ||

    rorz!

  • Sevo||

    Timon19|12.18.11 @ 10:20PM|#
    "Died of "mental exertion", according to NK State TV"

    Naah.
    It was all that mall cruzin' in Japan. Wore his ass out!

  • PantsFan||

    Hope for reason regulars

  • Almanian||

    o_o

  • Gojira||

    North Korean State TV announces Kim Jong Il is dead!!!

  • Gojira||

    Stupid refresh. PantsFan beat me to it.

  • ||

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-16239693

    Looks like the waiting room to hell has a new opening. Kim Jong Il is dead. How long before all hell breaks lose in Korea?

  • Almanian||

    Him have #1 son to take over!

    No worries, lound eyes! Arrr is in good hans!

    Cally on!

  • ||

    Quit busting my baws, Hans Brix!

  • Almanian||

    Do you know how fucking BUSY I am?

  • ||

    I think this guy is going to be one idiot son too far. They barely were able to transfer power to this Kim. And things were a lot better in 1994 and Kim Jong Il a lot older, more experienced, and had more followers than his son. And this is the youngest son. The oldest one, who was supposed to take over but got put down a peg after being caught sneaking into Japan to go to Disney Land, is still out there. I bet the whole place falls apart.

  • Almanian||

    Oh ye of ritter faith, lound eyes! WE show you! Grorious New Reader take over - juuusst rike nothing happen.

    You'rr see, lound eyes, you'rr see...

  • ||

    What do I know, I am just a running dog capitalist.

  • Kim Jong Almanian||

    Collection - "lunning dog capitarrrist".

    you rercome...

  • John, 2002||

    Just watch. We'll find stockpile upon stockpile of WMDs in Iraq after we finish the invasion. Trust me.

  • ||

    I thought you finally blew your wad below. I guess it was it just a false alarm.

  • tarran||

    John,

    At the time, I agreed with you: I figured that Saddam wouldn't waste time on the Al Samoud missile without having a warhead that was more devastating that H.E. (after all, the money spent developing the rocket would have bought a huge arsenal of artilery an AAA).

  • Britt||

    I still think the WMDs were stashed somewhere, or maybe whisked away to Syria. He absolutely had them in the late 80s, just ask the Kurds. Somehow I doubt he got rid of all of them.

    Problem is the idea that it doesn't fucking matter to the US what one group of wogs does to another group of wogs is not an idea that's accepted in American political discourse any more. So the Republicans play the Never Again card, and the Democrats can't admit that Iraq does in fact have nerve gas, because they have to pretend it's all roses and kite flying. Which is stupid.

    I mean, look let's say we did leave Iraq alone, and Saddam later tried for the oil again and used WMDs. Well then we have to go to war for Saudi Arabia, which will cost billions, lead to thousands of dead Americans, and a whole shitload of dead Iraqis. Well....good thing we forestalled that by ending Saddam's WMD program. Thank you national security establishment for having the wisdom to spare us a quagmire.

  • PantsFan||

    His designated successor is believed to be his third son, Kim Jong-woon, who is thought to be in his late 20s.

  • ||

    I wonder what the older sons think of Junior taking over?

  • ||

    Depends on how ruthless Junior is.

    If he's anything like his dad, they probably better start making plans to go south.

  • John||

    Looks like the waiting room to hell has a new opening. Kim Jong Il is dead. How long before all hell breaks lose in Korea?

    *fap fap fap fap fap fap*

    Sorry still rubbing one out over all those dead brown people in Iraq.

  • ||

    Fuck off you moron. Seriously, go give yourself a blowjob, retard.

  • John||

    *fap fap fap fap fap fap* dead muslims....*fap fap fap*

    I'm almost hard, honey! Just gotta masturbate to more War Pr0n and I'll be there in a sec!

  • ||

    Retarded liberal is retarded.

  • John||

    Watching foreign cities blown up, especially Mooozlim' ones, gives my little three inch dick such a stiffy.

    SHOCK 'N AWE!

  • ||

    Did you finally have your orgasm after that one? Be sure to clean up your keyboard because that is just gross.

  • DEATH KNELL OF AMERICAN EMPIRE||

    So the Yanks are going home. Apart from the thousands of their servicemen and women whose lifeblood they are leaving in the sands of Iraq, and the tens of thousands too maimed or otherwise damaged to make it back to home and hearth. And minus the trillion-plus of dollars in treasure they have expended on destroying an Arab country (which may have lost a million souls and seen three millions off into exile), fanning the flames of fanaticism, making Iran more powerful, and unleashing a wave of sectarianism throughout the Muslim world. Nice work, but hardly "Mission Accomplished", as the melancholy valediction delivered by President Obama at Fort Bragg this week made clear to the discerning.

    The more he talked about what he once called the "dumb war", the more obvious it was that his was the task of holding the dipped banner of defeat. And the crew of thick-necked servicemen straight out of central casting roaring their approval at his description of their success could not quite drown out the sound of the Last Post. This is the death knell of American empire, the end of the brief unipolar world in the ashes of whose hubris the lone bugler now stands playing the retreat. Like Ozymandias, history – which hasn't ended after all – will invite us to gaze upon its ruined works and tremble. But instead we will rejoice, rejoice. For the Project for the New American Century it will be never glad confident morning again.

    The war that was waged – yes, for oil, and yes, also for Israel – was waged above all to terrify the world (especially China) with American power. It turned into the largest boomerang in history. For what has been demonstrated instead are the limits of near-bankrupt America's power. Far from being cowed, America's adversaries – and its enemies – have been emboldened. With shock and awe the empire soon dominated the skies over Iraq to be sure. But they never controlled a single street in the country from the day they invaded until this day of retreat. One street alone – Haifa Street in Baghdad – became the graveyard of scores, maybe hundreds of Americans.

    Fortresses like Fallujah entered history alongside Stalingrad as symbols of the unvanquishable power of popular resistance to foreign invasion. Crimes like Abu Ghraib prison – where Iraqis were stripped naked and humiliated, forced to perform indecent acts upon each other and videotaped doing so for the entertainment of their torturers in the barracks afterwards – entered the lexicon of the barbarism of those who invade others, flying the colours of their "civilising" mission. As Chairman Mao once put it: "Sometimes the enemy struggles mightily to lift a huge stone; only to drop it on its own foot." In an America where a third of the population are living in poverty or terrifyingly near it, and where imperial hubris met its nemesis on Haifa Street, China now knows it has nothing to fear from this paper tiger.

    I wrote at the time that the invasion of Iraq would be worse than a crime: it would be the Mother of All Blunders. I told Tony Blair – outside the men's lavatory in the library corridor of the House of Commons, to be precise – that the fall of Baghdad would be not the beginning of the end, but merely the end of the beginning. And that the Iraqis would fight them, with their teeth if necessary, until they had driven them from their land. I told Blair that there was no al-Qaida in Iraq, but that if he and Bush were to invade there would be thousands of them.

    But two things, as George Bush would put it, I "mis-underestimated". First, that when the tower of lies on which the case for the Iraq war had been constructed was exposed, the credibility of the political systems of the two main liars would collapse under the weight. And second, that the example of the Iraqi resistance would trigger seismic changes in the Arabian landscape from Marrakesh to Bahrain.

    Almost nobody in Britain or America any longer believes a word their politicians say. This profound change is not wholly the result of the Iraq war, but it moved into top gear following the war and the militarised mendacity that paved the way to it. In America this malaise has fuelled both the Tea Party phenomenon and the Occupy movement alike, even if the word Iraq seldom crosses their lips. And from the Atlantic Ocean to the Persian Gulf the plates are moving still ...

  • ||

    Ah, Fallujia was a horrible defeat for the Islamists. They got their asses kicked and Falluja was never a problem again. Iraq may break into civil war now. But that is their problem not ours. Seriously, take crazy elsewhere.

  • John||

    Five years ago I was blowing smoke up your asses about how the goal was to build a liberal democracy in Iraq. Now I'm finally admitting its about killin' some brown muslims.

  • ||

    Needs more caps. And more obscenities. Your trolling skills are eroding. Your stupid is going strong. But your skills have diminished.

  • John, 2005||

    We can't withdraw now! that could mean civil war!

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    The first battle of Fallujah was a disaster, we didn't kick ass until 5 months later during the second battle.

  • ||

    The first one wasn't a disaster. We just didn't finish the job. We half assed it and didn't accomplish anything. But it is not like we lost. The second one they finally finished it.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    It was a disaster in that it was a major psychological victory for the insurgency, which possibly increased the life of the insurgency for several more years.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Needs more brackets.

  • ||

    And more caps. All caps baby. All caps./

  • Sevo||

    DEATH KNELL OF AMERICAN EMPIRE|12.18.11 @ 10:23PM|#
    "So the Yanks are going home...."

    Uh, what happened to your claim that 1/3 of the US is in poverty?

  • ||

    Christopher Hitchens, Kim Johng-Il, and Vaclav Havel walk into a bar...

  • ||

    The Pope may be joining them soon.

  • ||

    No shit. The rule of threes is very uncanny.

  • Gojira||

    You need to work Sandbananna into that somehow.

  • Sevo||

    And Hitch gets a drink.

  • ||

    Oddly enough, there is a connection.

    North Korea's embassy in Prague has demanded that the film "Team America: World Police" be banned in the Czech Republic, saying the movie harms their country's reputation, a report said Saturday.
  • PantsFan||

    Kim Jong-Il looking at things
    http://kimjongillookingatthings.tumblr.com/

  • ||

    He always looked like an unhappy Korean grandmother with that hairdo.

  • PantsFan||

    North Korean official hairstyle
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let's_trim_our_hair_in_accordance_with_the_socialist_lifestyle

  • Almanian||

    ERIC BARRWIN - DO SOMETHING!

  • THE CRIMINAL-IN-CHEIF||

    The Bush-Obama Bait and Switch on Enemy Combatants and Illegal Detainment

    Liberals in Congress and in the general public have allowed their blind devotion to Obama obscure their understanding of the dramatic parallels between this administration and the previous one. Obama’s high-minded idealistic rhetoric (which Bush also engaged in, it should be pointed out) may sound great to establishment liberals, but it masks the same contempt for the rule of law that was displayed so often in the Bush imperial presidency. Now, Obama’s contempt for the Constitution is on display for all to see, although many will not like what they see.

    Nowhere is this contempt for the highest laws of the land clearer than in Obama’s complete refusal to protect basic due process rights for alleged terrorists and detainees in the “War on Terror.” Case in point: Obama’s commitment to illegally detain American citizens under the name of fighting terrorism (more on this in a bit).

    Before getting into Obama’s most recent attacks on the Constitution, I should note that they are part of a larger historical pattern of contempt for basic civil liberties. Count among Obama’s previous transgressions: 1. The decision to refrain from prosecuting the Bush administration for its many violations of the law, including the NSA wiretaps scandal, the Guantanamo-enemy combatant fiasco, the systematic lying about the reasons for war in Iraq, and the willful skirting of the Geneva Conventions as seen in the Abu Ghraib scandal, among other deceptions; 2. The decision to continue using rendition, where terrorist suspects would be sent to third world dictatorships to be interrogated, coupled with the absurd promise that these governments would no longer torture detainees (as they did under Bush), because the new interrogations were in service of the noble and selfless Obama, unlike Bush, who was a bad, bad man; and 3. Obama’s expanded “War on Terror” as seen in the Afghan surge, which would have been protested endlessly if it occurred under the Bush administration.

    The Los Angeles Times’ reporting in early 2009 perfectly symbolized the naiveté of liberal aspirations for the president, as the paper reported on Obama’s tortured promise (no pun intended) that the CIA would continue to use rendition, but that foreign interrogators simply wouldn’t torture anymore. Such a promise was outlandish on the face of it, since the whole point behind rendition is to outsource torture to allied governments which are better able to hide their use of torture in interrogations (this was the lesson learned at Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, and Bagram, where U.S. interrogators were eventually implicated in coercive interrogations and torture).

    As the LA Times optimistically reported at the time of Obama’s inauguration: “The CIA’s secret prisons are being shuttered. Harsh interrogation techniques are off-limits. And Guantanamo Bay will eventually go back to being a wind-swept naval base on the southeastern corner of Cuba…Under executive orders issued by Obama recently, the CIA still has authority to carry out what are known as renditions, secret abductions and transfers of prisoners to countries that cooperate with the United States. Current and former U.S. intelligence officials said that the rendition program might be poised to play an expanded role going forward because it was the main remaining mechanism… for taking suspected terrorists off the street.” The LA Times continued: “Obama created a task force to reexamine renditions to make sure that they ‘do not result in the transfer of individuals to other nations to face torture,’ or otherwise circumvent human rights laws and treaties. The CIA has long maintained that it does not turn prisoners over to other countries without first obtaining assurances that the detainees will not be mistreated.” Such naiveté was no doubt embraced by Obama supporters who wanted to believe that Obama could never engage in the kind of torture of detainees that so regularly characterized the actions of the Bush administration.

    Now Obama appears to be ready to strengthen his contempt for the rule of law via his expansion of the enemy combatant system, while slyly refusing to refer to those detained as “enemy combatants.” Much was made of Obama’s initial attempts (in 2009) to shut down Guantanamo and send detainees there to U.S. civilian courts, where they would be granted basic due process rights. That plan was shut down by Democrats in Congress, which have long displayed their basic distaste for basic Constitutional and other legal protections for “terrorist suspects.” Obama kowtowed to Congressional criminality in 2009, and is set to do it again this year. As the New York Times recently reported, Obama has now abandoned his promise to veto the “military authorization bill” being considered in Congress, which threatens to extend denial of due process to American citizens who are suspected of terrorist activities. Let me repeat that in case you missed it: Obama has now gone on record as openly supportive of denying American citizens (not only non-citizens) basic due process rights such as the right to trial, trial by peers, and right to legal representation.

    As the New York Times reports: “The administration had threatened to veto versions of the National Defense Authorization Act of 2012 passed by the House and the Senate, arguing that provisions would open the door for the military to perform policing functions inside the United States…But the bill includes a narrower provision, drafted by the Senate, authorizing the government to detain, without trial, suspected members of Al Qaeda or its allies — or those who ‘substantially supported’ them — bolstering the authorization it enacted a decade ago against the perpetrators of the Sept. 11 attacks…Another section would require officials to hold noncitizens suspected of being Qaeda operatives in military custody.”

    Of course, the traditionally slavish U.S. media spared Americans the worst details of the new legislation. The Guardian reports that the new law potentially “allows the military to indefinitely detain without trial American terrorism suspects arrested on US soil who could then be shipped to Guantánamo Bay.” Neither of these details was acknowledged in the New York Times’ report on the National Defense Authorization Act, to the delight of the Obama administration.

    It’s truly tragic and sad that this “debate” over circumvention of basic rights granted in the Constitution has to be replayed yet again in the United States. The Bush administration was rightly condemned for its complete contempt for the Constitution, but American liberals seem content to ignore these same transgressions when engaged in by Democrats.

    For the record, there is nothing remotely controversial about the conclusion that denying citizens and non-citizens alike basic due process rights in civilian courts is illegal under national and international law. As the Supreme Court ruled in the 2004 case of Hamdan v. Rumsfeld, military tribunals for terrorist suspects clearly violate basic protections granted under the Geneva Conventions, which require that suspects be tried in “regularly constituted courts.” A regularly constituted court is widely understood to be the equivalent of a civilian court, conferring within it basic protections to confront accusers, benefit from a trial of one’s peers, and to be protected against hearsay, majority (rather than unanimous voting), and to confidential attorney-client privileges. All of these protections are circumvented in military tribunals, which afford a far lower level of basic protections to the accused. Such due process protections carry the force of domestic law, in light of the fact that the Geneva Conventions are U.S. ratified foreign treaties, and are protected under the Constitution’s “supremacy clause,” which places foreign treaties on par with national laws and the Constitution itself as the highest form of law in the land. The Supreme Court also found that the Geneva Conventions protections for non-citizens (to have access to a trial in a civilian court) were protected via the Uniform Military Code of Justice, which also incorporates basic Geneva Conventions protections.

    The outlawing of the “enemy combatant” designation and the indefinite detainment of non-citizens was also reinforced in the Supreme Court’s 2004 Hamdi vs. Rumsfeld decision, which declared the Bush administration’s detainment of terrorist suspects at Guantanamo to be illegal and unconstitutional. The Constitution states explicitly in the 6th Amendment that: “In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury… and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.” Critics will no doubt point out that the 6th Amendment refers to basic protections granted to those who are charged with crimes allegedly committed within (rather than outside) the United States. This criticism is irrelevant, however, with regard to the new legislation being considered in Congress, which is set to apply to American citizens and their (alleged) illegal activities committed on U.S. soil. Furthermore, the Constitution does not distinguish between citizens and non-citizens in the case of alleged crimes and due process rights, as addressed in the Fifth Amendment, which explicitly states that “no person [rather than no citizen]…shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.” This provision essentially makes illegal and unconstitutional any attempts by presidents or congress to deny basic due process to citizens and non-citizens.

    Obama’s lawless infringements on basic Constitutional principles are (fortunately) opposed by a strong majority of Americans, who still maintain a commitment to the rule of law. Polling on the denial of due process is in short supply, but what little evidence exists suggests strong rejection of the circumvention of the Constitution. A 2006 poll published by the Program on International Policy Attitudes, for example, uncovers the following findings:

    - 73 percent of Americans believe terrorism “suspects should have the right to request and receive a hearing.”

    - 66 percent think that the “home government and families [of detainees] should be informed of their capture and location.”

    - 73 percent feel that detainees “treatment should be monitored by the Red Cross or another international organization” to ensure that they are treated humanely

    - 75 percent (contrary to Obama’s reliance on rendition and torture) feel that detainees “should not be tortured,” while 57 percent think that detainees “should not be threatened with torture.”

    - 63 percent agree that “the rules for treating someone who is being detained because they are suspected of terrorist activities should be the same for citizens and non-citizens.”

    - 57 percent feel “the United States should not permit U.S. military and intelligence agencies to secretly send terrorism suspects to other countries that are known to use torture.”

    - 78 percent believe that it would be “somewhat” or “very likely” that these suspects “were tortured even if officials [as Obama has done today] say they would not be.”

    American majority sentiment is very clearly opposed to the Obama administration’s continuation of the illegal attacks on the Constitution and basic due process rights. We have an opportunity today to send a message to our members of Congress that denial of due process is unacceptable regardless of the party of the president. Simply because Congress decides to initiate illegal acts doesn’t mean that they are any less unconstitutional. Political elites may have no interest in this basic lesson, but that doesn’t mean that Americans have to accept such draconian, authoritarian arguments. I strongly urge all those committed to the rule of law to contact their legislators in the House and Senate and urge them strongly to vote no against the authorization of the 2012 National Defense Authorization Act.

    To look up your members of Congress, see the following links:


    For the House of Representatives: http://www.house.gov/representatives/find/


    For the Senate: http://www.senate.gov/general/.....rs_cfm.cfm

  • PantsFan||

    You're taking the news of Dear Leader's death better than I thought.

  • ||

    Apparently the death of Kim was a signal to trolls everywhere to hit the streets.

  • ||

    You should definitely try to cut and paste more. These short posts just don't give the whole story.

  • Kim Jong Almanian||

    Coorrr stolly, Blo

  • Almanian||

    Phirrip Livers > Lay Rewis

    Back to SNF....

  • ||

    I hate San Diago. Dick around all season only to finally decide to play at the end.

  • Kim Jong Almanian||

    Yeah, I hate the AFC in general, but it's football, so - by law, of course - I have to watch.

  • ||

    I am a Chiefs fan so I hate every AFC team. I never got that whole conference loyalty thing.

  • Lions Fan||

    Thank God they beat the Green Bay FudgePackers today. Anything to shut them up.

  • ||

    The team that shut people up today was the Patriots, actually.

  • Raul and Kim Jong Almanian||

    The Chiefs have the reddest uniforms EVER - was just noting that. Congrats on the win today! KC > Rogers

  • Lions Fan||

    Really, I think the rest of the NFL agrees that the Chiefs were doing the Lord's work today.

  • ||

    I think Green Bay may be in trouble. Their O line is terrible. And they had a couple of starters get hurt today making it even worse. You can't win in the playoffs if you can't protect your quarterback. And Tamba Hali went full Steve Smith on the left tackle today. That guy is probably catatonic right now.

  • Lions Fan||

    I think their undefeated record gave them an intimidation factor they don't have now. They got exposed today.

  • Lions Fan||

    I think their undefeated record gave them an intimidation factor they don't have now. They got exposed today.

  • Lions Fan||

    Agreed. GB got exposed today. The intimidation factor is gone now.

  • Lions Fan||

    Fucking server.

  • John||

    I luuuuve Tim Tebow.

  • ||

    I don't even know what that is supposed to mean. The quality of trolling gets worse every day.

  • Raul and Kim Jong Almanian||

    Probably coming from North Korea now. Their quality control is horrible.

  • ||

    Well they are in morning of the loss of dearly beloved leader.

  • Kim Jong Almanian||

    Oh boy - more and more the Chargers can run on them.

    As Dandy Don used to sing, "Turn out the lighhhhttssm....the party's over...."

  • PantsFan||

    Anyone hear from Castro lately?

  • Raul Almanian||

    Ju call, mine?

  • ||

    Weekend at Fidel's

  • Gojira||

    I can't stand the crop this year, where the husband gives her some music box or something that plays the Lexus theme song, and she runs outside to find the car with the big bow.

    What the FUCK kind of materialistic bitches fucking recognize the Lexus commercial theme song instantaneously?

  • Gojira||

    Uh, this was supposed to be in response to John @ 10:46. No idea how it wound up up here.

  • ||

    The first time I saw that commercial I thought it was for Jared's or one of those jewelry places, and the elevator music was a hint that he should propose. Never would have imagined it was for Lexus.

  • ||

    So, in this commercial, Santa is riding around on top of a razor head, and when he rides past the elves they all stroke their cheeks and admire how close the shave is. But then he passes a reindeer and it does the same thing with its hoof. Wouldn't a reindeer be pissed that you shaved its face?

    This makes no sense. I'm going to boycott until they start making the Santa-riding-the-razor commercials logical.

  • ||

    Have you seen the Lexus commercials where the smoking hot model buys her obviously gay husband a new car? Did the people who cast those commercials not think anyone would notice the disparity in sexuality?

    "Honey you are really cute and all. But I don't care how nice of a car you buy your husband, he is never going to be that into you."

  • Raul and Kim Jong Almanian||

    Yeah, all those Lexus commercials are gay as fuck, as my son would say.

    I'm guessing they're hitting their Cosmotarian target market though.

  • Raul and Kim Jong Almanian||

    SPEAK OF THE DEVIL! The "couple in the elevator and the song starts to play" was just on.

    Like, I NEVER associated that song with anything before - and I still don't. Gay as fuck indeed

  • ||

    A couple of years ago they had one where two women who looked like trophy wives were trying to claim the Lexus with the big bow on it parked in the street in front of their houses. I always thought it would have been great if a cat fight had broken out.

  • ||

    Well, there's that fag-stuff we were talking about...

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    I'm guessing they're hitting their Cosmotarian target market though.

    We prefer Saabs, actually.

  • ||

    I like Saabs. Does that mean I am a dreaded Cosmotarian?

  • ||

    Real men drive beat-up Echos.

  • ||

    I thought cosmos were Prius lovers?

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    No, that's just lefty profs.

  • Xenocles||

    Is buying cars for Christmas actually a thing?

  • ||

    I don't even thing really rich people do that. If you are rich, you already have a cool car.

  • Gojira||

    They do do that. Pls see my reply below.

  • PantsFan||

    It is for the 1%.

  • ||

    WTF, Panty Poo?

  • Raul and Kim Jong Almanian||

    In Michigan, buying food for your loved ones is more the thing lately.

    HIYO!

  • Bingo||

    Fuck off rather

  • Almanian||

    No, that really was me...being a Michigangeranian and all, I can verify it's TRUE

  • PantsFan||

    JINX

  • ||

    Among the 1% it is.

  • Gojira||

    I sold cars for three months when I first finished college, and yes, December was a big month.

    It usually wasn't to give as a "surprise" gift, but a lot of times couples would come in and make it a gift for themselves.

  • PantsFan||

    Do they buy it outright, or put down a payment?

  • Gojira||

    *shrugs* As always, it depends on the customer. I didn't notice anyone doing one thing or the other more often than usual.

  • ||

    As a rust belter that makes no sense to me. Why in the world would you put a new car through winter immediately after buying it?

  • Gojira||

    Can't speak for the rust belt. I live in Dallas.

  • Sevo||

    "Year End Clearance"
    Buying in the summer is more expensive.

  • ||

    Yeah the whole surprise part is anathema to me. Even if I could afford to do this, my wife would want WAY more input into the choice.

  • ||

    I like the Acura commercials with Chief Ramsey and Bette Middler better.

    If I were buying a luxury car, that would matter.

  • PantsFan||

    Kim's funeral set for Dec. 28 in Pyongyang; mourning period to last till Dec. 29

  • Raul and Kim Jong Almanian||

    Shit, what should I wear? I guess the usual quasi-military uniform will have to do. Good thing I don't have work that day - wouldn't want to FREAK OUT my co-workers with the paramilitary, Third-World look...

  • A Secret Band of Robbers||

    It should take at least 10 days to wipe off all those dicks they drew on his face postmortem.

  • Raul and Kim Jong Almanian||

    TOMORROW STARTS TWO WEEKS OF VACATION, BITCHES! I'M GONNA STAY UP TILL 5:00 IN THE MORNING LIKE A FUCKING TEENAGER JUST CAUSE I CAN!!

    Hey, Ravens just scored. Too late, losers!

    Night, Reasonoids!

  • ||

    Roger Simon on things Obama got wrong. Number 1 is

    1. He got the movie wrong. He is not Sheriff Bart in “Blazing Saddles.” He is William Raymond “Billy Ray” Valentine in “Trading Places.” Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi are the Duke Brothers. In that movie, Eddy Murphy’s character goes from bum to stock broker supplanting Louis Winthorpe III, the nephew of brothers Randolph and Mortimer Duke. In real life, Louis Winthorpe III is Hillary Clinton. In the movie, the Duke Brothers get their comeuppance — but only after William Raymond “Billy Ray” Valentine realizes they set him up. Obama remains ignorant.

  • ||

    I thought he was Ruby Rhod from The Fifth Element. Chicks love him even though he's totally useless for anything except talking pretty, and he blames other people for his own mistakes.

  • Ted S.||

    I thought he was Lonesome Rhodes from A Face in the Crowd.

  • Bingo||

    Christ, is rectal's manic period in full effect or what? Between spoofing John and irrelevant wall-o-texts this is a new low.

  • ||

    It always seems to happen on the weekends.

  • PantsFan||

    The server squirrels are fighting back.

  • ||

    They were fucking with me last night.

  • ||

    Hey Pants, can you tell your brethren to stop coming to AZ in the winter. My work commute is becoming a bitch.

  • PantsFan||

    Hell no. Our Mayor has a place out there you know.

  • ||

    Goddammit, there are even websites for it.

  • Bingo||

    Some weekends are worse than others. Alcohol exacerbates bi-polar disorder, so assuming she found someone dumb enough to employ her it means that we're looking at shitty weekends again. I wish fucking Old Mexican would stop responding to her, goddamnit.

    Spoofing you on foreign policy is pretty weak, we got enough shit to make fun of you for without having to fake it.

  • Bingo||

    Yeah this was in reply to John but fuck it I'm out for a drink and a smoke. Probably mis-clicked but I'll blame it on the damn squirrels

  • ||

    Asian stocks are falling due to KJI's death. Are they expecting a succession struggle or something?

  • Bingo||

    Good time to sell if Korean re-unification matches German re-unification.

  • Bingo||

    Just imagine the results of S. Korean companies employing N. Koreans.

  • Sevo||

    Kinda interesting. Dictators tend to hold power closely.
    The bozos who kidnapped Gorby in '89 made the mistake of believing the military backed them. Yeltsin showed it wasn't true.
    Do Grorious Reader's older sons have enough influence with the military to dispute younger son's power?

  • ||

    The Soviet coup was in 1991 actually...

  • Sevo||

    Ooops.
    Point stands.

  • PermaLurker||

    Rumor mill has it oldest son Jong-nam was caught sneaking into Japan to visit Disneyland and reputedly doesn't ever want to go back. Next oldest Jong-choi was out of favor for being a nancy boy, so doesn't sound like either will have military backing for coup type moves.

  • Sevo||

    PantsFan|12.18.11 @ 10:48PM|#
    "Kim's funeral set for Dec. 28 in Pyongyang; mourning period to last till Dec. 29"

    Can we presume that most of NK 'citizens' will interpret that to mean 12/28/11, 11:59:59 PM until 12/29/11 12:00 AM?
    Assuming they haven't yet starved...

  • PantsFan||

    I think it means the mourning starts now.
    The Nork presenter was in tears when she delivered the message on state TV.

  • Sevo||

    "The Nork presenter was in tears when she delivered the message on state TV."

    Yeah, a guy with a gun stuck in your ribs can have that effect.

  • tarran||

    Sevo, the love is sincere. They're like the English serfs in a Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court.

  • Bingo||

    We need to start a pool on whether or not this spells the end of the PRK. The cynic in me says it doesn't just because, but there's a lot of reasons why there might be half-starved Koreans walking south right now.

  • tarran||

    I don't think the grandson has anywhere the power of his father or grandfather.

    I think that there will be a nasty war of succession with lots of palace intrigue. One of the factions will try the perestroika route, and once that bull's eye is hit, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards... Checkmate!

  • Bingo||

    I'm trying to figure out if it's going to be like West Germany absorbing the East or if there's going to be bloodshed from the thing.

  • ||

    We need to start a pool on whether or not this spells the end of the PRK.

    You'd need to specify a time period for that.

    Perestroika and glasnost were the end of the USSR, but it took 6 years to play out.

  • Bingo||

    Time period and metric. I'd bet that NAND memory would take a big jump if it happened, but maybe after 2 years stabilize.

    We can get an escrow going if you are serious, fat man!

  • ||

    CNN chimes in with their always nebulous perspective:

    Regarded as one of the world's most-repressive leaders, Kim Jong Il always cut a slightly bizarre figure. His diminutive stature and characteristically bouffant hair have been parodied by some in the West.

    But for the citizens of his Democratic People's Republic of Korea, Kim was the embodiment of the reclusive state, and well regarded.

    Not sure what their source is for KJI being popular among North Koreans, but ok.

  • Bingo||

    Stockholm syndrome? A lifetime of propaganda? There's a lot of reasons why the state in NK will keep on going.

  • Sevo||

    Lies?

  • Bingo||

    For sure... assuming you watched the Vice.tv video of it. Apparently SK makes all these crazy wonderful things but they are basically slaves.

  • ||

    God-willing there'll be a bloodbathe and they'll just invade the South so we can kick their ass and get this over with. Only way reunification is going to happen.

  • Bingo||

    See, this is a foreign policy stance where no spoofing is needed. Hello, fall of the Berlin Wall? It's a dying regime where one of the major organs has failed. I hope, for the poor NKorean's sake, that it's not a bloodbath.

  • Sevo||

    'I hope, for the *everyone's* sake, that it's not a bloodbath.'

    I don't doubt that was your intent, I just took the liberty of pointing it out.

  • Bingo||

    Given our personnel investment in the region and given the Nork's propensity for massed Soviet-era pre-positioned artillery and given Seoul's proximity to said artillery, I agree.

    Pretty sure China does NOT want any violence in the region, which is probably the best thing going right now.

  • ||

    No Sevo, I meant what I said. I honestly think thats the only way they will be unified, which will be better for everybody in the long run.

    The Berlin Wall scenerio isn't really applicable because the Germans were part of the liberal cultural heritage of the West, and had lived under freer governments in the past.

    Asiatics are (historically) more prone to totaliatarianism. Even the "democratic" Asian nations are in reality usually oligarchies where one party keeps power for decades at a time, like in Japan.

    Heck, South Korea was a straight-up dictatorship until the mid 80s.

    Nope, I see either the NK state continuing on like it has been, or millions dying and then having a unified Korea afterwards. I think long-term the latter option is better.

  • Bingo||

    Latter -> former, I'm assuming

    What are you drinking tonight John and cheers

  • ||

    No, again, I meant what I said. Why is everyone having such a hard time with this?

    If people have to die now, to prevent another 50 years of communist rule, then now is the time for that. The war should be fought now, while they are in transition, and loyalties are still uncertain.

  • Bingo||

    Look the last 20 years have shown that most countries, when authoritarian communist rule dissolves, actually peacefully revert to a democraticish free-marketish system.

    I'm finding it hard to believe you are pining for a war that will result in tens-of-thousands US and Korean deaths. Loyalties be damned, that's a lot of lives.

  • Sevo||

    John|12.18.11 @ 11:56PM|#
    "No Sevo, I meant what I said. I honestly think thats the only way they will be unified, which will be better for everybody in the long run."

    For starters, I wasn't responding to you.
    For 'seconders', you're welcome to your opinion. My hope and opinion is that NK can become a decent nation without a blood-bath.
    And I'll add I can't think of a time I've hoped for a blood-bath.

  • tarran||

    Dude! That's depraved!

    *I* expect that the factions will fight each other and so weaken the state that they will no longer be able to suppress smuggling accross the Chinese border.

    I *hope* that whatever faction seizes power decides to ape the Chinese and starts liberalizing the economy. Allowing private farm-stands would be a good start.

    As far as unification goes, why?!?

    Nobody is trying to reunify West Virginia w/ Virginia, and the world doesn't end.

    Let the two polities go their way peaceably - and if they never "unify" but millions live in more and more prosperous circumstances, it would be wonderful!

    But hoping for a bloddy war?!?

    My best friend on this Earth was Korean, and I know the hell his family went through in the last war, and I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

  • Bingo||

    Pretty sure it's not really John. We're being trolled.

  • tarran||

    Yeah, John lives on the east coast, doesn't he? He's probably in bed, as I should be.

  • Bingo||

    NOVA or close to it. John has weird foreign policy opinions but the anonymous troll is really fucking up when pretending to be him.

    I got a couple beers left and I'll be joining you... (no homo)

  • ||

    Asiatics are (historically) more prone to totaliatarianism.

    If you ignore Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Franco, etc. in your history, sure.

    Other than UK and France, every European country has had democracy imposed from without.

  • ||

    Everybody thought North Korea was done when KJI's dad died in 1994 and the USSR stopped subsidizing their economy a few years before.. We should be prepared for a surprise.

  • Sevo||

    Could be, but tin-pot dictatorships ain't know for peaceful transfers of power.
    Not to say it never happens, but...

  • ||

    It's already a bloodbath. Or not so much a "bloodbath" as a mass starvation. If the war resumed between north and south, the south could get the nork army to desert en masse by offering them food.

    -jcr

  • Kim's Will||

    And to my beloved son Kim Jong-un, I bequeath all my nuclear weapons. He will know what to do with them.

  • ||

    OOohhh, look at the internet Tuff Gai.

    You want to start a war, tuff gai? Just like you were all gung-ho for Iraq a few years ago?

    Fuck off and die.

  • ||

    Blow it out your ass. I'm not an anarchrist, so yes, if a brief and bloody war has to be fought to destroy the communists, I would be OK with that.

    And I told you I used to back the Iraq War, but I left off of that two years ago.

  • Sevo||

    "if a brief and bloody war has to be fought to destroy the communists, I would be OK with that."

    I'll presume it ain't your blood we're discussing.

  • ||

    No, the blood of the service men and women who volunteered for this posibility. I really doubt anyone signed up to join the military without knowing we have problems with NK. And there's no conscription, so no coercsion.

  • Bingo||

    spoof

  • Sevo||

    John|12.19.11 @ 12:02AM|#
    "No, the blood of the service men and women who volunteered for this posibility."

    I'll bet they have a different preference. Like, maybe, a peaceful transition.
    Out of curiosity, are you pissed that Eisenhower didn't push the US troops into Berlin? Could have been a great blood-bath.

  • Bingo||

    Dude, it's a spoof.

  • rofl||

    If we have to some unorganized killing to stop some organized killing, well, it just makes perfect sense!

  • Bingo||

    This is a spoof too.

  • db||

    "Kim Jong Il dies in public transportation-related incident"

  • Sevo||

    Really?
    A HSR? Inner city light rail? Regulated taxi?
    Got a cite?

  • db||

    This is satire on u.s. media; if there were a firearm within 20 feet of him cnn et al would report it as a "gun related death."

  • db||

    He died on a train, reportedly.

  • ||

    You're waiting for a train, a train that will take you far away. You know where you hope this train will take you, but you don't know for sure.

  • Sevo||

    Got it.
    Sorta like 'he was smoking a cigarette when he was run over; 'smoking-related-death'.

  • db||

    Shamelessly stolen from a friend:

    "Kim Jong Il's condition downgraded to Kim Jong Dead."

  • ||

    I'm shamelessly stealing that.

  • ||

    Saparmurat Niyazov, the post-Soviet leader of Turkmenistan, was said to be a fan of Fountains of Wayne, but that has yet to be confirmed.

  • Crick||

    Stacey's Mom did have it going on.

  • ||

    Did you know that they were named after a fountain store in Wayne, NJ? I've driven by it a few times.

  • ||

    I know now, and am indeed a better man for it. Thanks!

    Niyazov renamed the months of the year after members of his family. I am pretty certain they changed them back after his death.

  • ||

  • Sevo||

    Bingo|12.19.11 @ 12:06AM|#
    "Pretty sure it's not really John. We're being trolled."

    I'll presume that's true and let it go.

  • ||

    Can you prove that you are really you?

  • Bingo||

    This Tulpa is a spoof.

  • Sevo||

    To whom?
    Someone took your email addy a week or so ago and replied to me.
    It was pretty obvious is wasn't you. Or, it was you after some mind-altering chemicals.

  • ||

    How do you know it wasn't me?

    Which conversation was this, so I can try and remember.

  • ||

    THAT'S a spoof.

  • ||

    THAT's a spoof.

  • ||

    THAT's a spoof.

  • ||

    THAT's a spoof.

  • Bingo||

    Get a life rectal

  • ||

    If it was capable of getting a life, it wouldn't embarrassing itself over here would it?

  • Bingo||

    Yeah best to do so. John has disagreements with anarchists but he's a principled minarchist, albeit an aggressive one when it comes to foreign policy. Throwing lives away for meaningless struggle isn't really in his beliefs.

    Huge fail on rectal/rather for even attempting that spoof.

  • Bingo||

    I dunno, you stupid shit libertards fell for it for awhile, and responded quite a few times before coming up with "spoof".

    GodDAMN you guys are dumb.

  • Bingo||

    ...

    lmao

  • Bingo||

    Well it's pretty stupid to say shit like "this troll is fucking up" and that it's an "obvious" spoof when you and Sevo respond to it several times before coming to you astounding conclusions.

    Either it's obvious and you're an idiot for missing it for so long, or it was good and you're of reasonably average intelligence.

  • Sevo||

    No, it's that you're an asshole.

  • Sevo||

    Ok, so let me understand: it's painfully obvious, but you have a serious conversation with it before someone else points it out to you.

    Right. You're a fucking moron.

  • Bingo||

    Do you even try? Really, check out some therapists they can help.

  • Sevo||

    [fake]Sevo|12.19.11 @ 12:25AM|#
    "Ok, so let me understand:"

    I doubt that's possible.

  • Bingo||

    Keep trying, you might start mimicking my comment postings soon.

    Some advice: I'm not as pretentious and I'm more self-centered.

  • Bingo||

    I don't have to keep trying, I already succeeded. You responded several times, did you not? Sevo would have kept responding if you didn't spoil it by letting the little retard in on the joke.

    Don't worry; all libertards are stupid as hell, so it's not like you're outside the bellcurve for this place. Take solace in the intellectual inferiority of your chosen compatriots.

  • Bingo||

    u mad?

  • Sevo||

    Nope, quite to the contrary. I'm pleased that I was able to once again demostrate how feeble the "free minds" around here are.

    Tell you what: you give me your IRL address, and I'll email you a Sylvan Learning Center coupon.

  • Bingo||

    So basically, you're mad, fake-Sevo? Come at me bro

    You're worthless, you hide behind others names.

  • Sevo||

    [Fake]Sevo|12.19.11 @ 12:32AM|#
    "Nope, quite to the contrary. I'm pleased that I was able to once again demostrate how feeble the "free minds" around here are."

    Demonstrate what to whom? That you can engage in fraud well enough to fool people who have no way of identifying the correspondent?
    What you've 'demonstrated' is something which would embarrass anyone with ethics.

  • Sevo||

    "Sevo would have kept responding if you didn't spoil it by letting the little retard in on the joke."

    I'm well pleased that someone pointed out I was wasting time responding to a little retard asshole.

  • Sevo||

    Wow, way to set a low bar for being pleased.

    "I'm well pleased that someone smarter than I am was able to point out something blindingly obvious so that I didn't keep making myself look like a stupid asshole."

  • Sevo||

    "I'm well pleased that someone smarter than I am was able to point out something blindingly obvious so that I didn't keep making myself look like a stupid asshole."

    You find that amusing? That I responded civilly to some posts? You claim to be 'smarter'?
    What sort of sorry excuse for a moral agent are you?

  • Bingo||

    I never claimed to be moral.

    But as to your first point, yes, I think it's amusing that Bingo claims the whole thing was "obvious", yet you clearly weren't able to discern the spoof. So either Bingo was wrong, and it wasn't obvious, or you're a fucking moron. Which is it?

  • Sevo||

    Bingo|12.19.11 @ 12:43AM|#
    "I never claimed to be moral."

    I don't doubt it.
    You
    are
    pathetic.

  • Bingo||

    I notice you didn't answer the question.

  • Bingo||

    ... pffft??? lol

    You are arguing with yourself and your own made-up ideals. Good luck!

  • Sevo||

    [fake]Bingo|12.19.11 @ 12:49AM|#
    "I notice you didn't answer the question."

    The answer is that you're a fucking jerk.

  • Bingo||

    Sorry Sevo, that answer wasn't an option, but thanks for playing!

    Say, can you tell if I'm the real Bingo or not? Because it's about as obvious as when I was posting as "John".

    Remember this anytime anyone ever posts something you don't understand (which, given your intelligence level, must happen a lot), or which you don't agree with (which, given the fact that you're an opinionated blowhard, must happen a lot). Because it just might be me, fooling you again, as I have so many times in the past.

  • ||

    YOU ARE SO FUCKING COOL RECTAL. I TOTALLY RESPECT YOU CUZ YOU SPOOFED SOMEONE. ONLY SMART CAN DO THAT A DURR HURR HURR.

  • Bingo||

    I'm flattered that you think I'm a significant enough contributor to spend this much time spoofing. Which given your ( which given ( which given being a stupid fucking troll ) )

    Seriously, a nest of which-givens? Go back to creative writing class, rectal. We deserve a better troll than this.

  • Sevo||

    It isn't a nest unless they are "nested" within one another (as yours are in your comment). Mine are not; they are separated by a subordinate clause.

    Go back to primary school and learn how to use basic terms correctly you stupid shit.

  • Sevo||

    "Huge fail on rectal/rather for even attempting that spoof."

    Damn, Bingo, you're good!

  • Bingo||

    So good it only took "me" a dozen posts to figure this mystery out. Sherlock Holmes I ain't.

    Hong Kong Fooey, maybe.

  • Bingo||

    What makes you happy rectal?

  • Bingo||

    This, mostly. Outsmarting all the self-righteous libertards who are oh-so-witty with their sci-fi references and the dated, widely ignored economic texts they worship and claim to have read (but probably actually haven't).

  • Bingo||

    Yeah some of us just live life. And this is our fun board while we're doing other things. You might want to try it sometime

  • Sevo||

    "Outsmarting all the self-righteous libertards"

    "Outsmarting"? Pathetic.

  • Sevo||

    Yes, outsmarting. You believed I was John. I tried to make it fairly obvious that I wasn't, just to see how many idiots I could rope in. You obligingly jumped right in.

    You are stupid. I don't know of any other way to put it in simple retard-terms that you can understand. You fall for spoofs all the time - I know, because half the time, I'm the one doing them. You're such a degenerate moron you're completely unable to tell the difference between people who post every day, and a jerk like me who only stops by a couple of times a week. You have an inferior mind, and should probably not be trusted to do much more than dig ditches, and I'm not even sure you wouldn't fuck that up.

  • Bingo||

    OK, great. You made a spoof. So what's your point?

    We aren't about inferiority or superiority. You're on the wrong site for that. You sound really mad about things.

  • Sevo||

    What are you talking about? This entire site is devoted to superiority/inferiority complexes!

    The way commenters vie with eachother to drop the most obscure references, the abject disdain for any of the 99% of humanity who don't hold to your ridiculous political and economic views, on and on. The superiority smugness on this site is so think you'd need a machete to hack through it.

  • Sevo||

    [fake]Sevo|12.19.11 @ 12:51AM|#
    "What are you talking about? This entire site is devoted to superiority/inferiority complexes!"

    'Way more of a projection than you probably wanted to admit.

  • Bingo||

    Seriously, I don't get half the pop-culture references... but I don't really care to understand it either (or participate in it). You are taking things very personally.

    And, yes, on a libertarian site, libertarian views tend to be the topic of the day. Are you surprised at this?

  • tarran||

    What are you talking about? This entire site is devoted to superiority/inferiority complexes!

    LOL, this being written by someone whose handle *and* blog url are based on the declaration that she'd "Rather Be Crazy Than Libertarian".

    The projection, it burnsssss.

  • Sevo||

    Bingo,
    Does rectal = rather?

  • Bingo||

    Yeah, rather, first word of her blog/handle

    rather = rather c_______ than libertarian = rctl = rectal

  • Sevo||

    Bingo|12.19.11 @ 1:05AM|#
    "Yeah, rather, first word of her blog/handle
    rather = rather c_______ than libertarian = rctl = rectal"

    Got it; the sleazy blog-pimp I pissed off a day or so ago.

  • Bingo||

    blog-whore, please, get it right.

    She's bi-polar so we have to endure her postings en-masse every couple of weeks. She'll tone it down in a few weeks then start it up again a few weeks after that.

    Pretty sure they make medicine to help people with brain-chemistry imbalances, but our girl is apparently too cool for that school.

  • Sevo||

    [fake]Sevo|12.19.11 @ 12:46AM|#
    "Yes, outsmarting. You believed I was John."

    Oh, look!
    Asshole can fake being someone else enough to fool those who don't know that someone very well!
    And then asshole can claim being "smart"!
    Did your 1st-grade classmates howl with laughter?

  • ||

    What's funny is that she would fall for the exact same stupid trick. Don't you have to be smarter than someone to "outsmart" them?

  • Sevo||

    "a jerk like me"

    At least we have that correct.
    How much satisfaction do you get from being a jerk?

  • Bingo||

    "How much satisfaction do you get from being a jerk?"

    Quite a bit, actually, thank you for asking.

    Now kindly shut the fuck up. Bingo and I are having a big-boy conversation, and I don't want to have to be constantly stopping to explain the larger words to you.

    At least he was able to (albeit belatedly) figure out what was a spoof and what wasn't (unlike, say...yourself), even though he doesn't know John "very well", as you put it.

  • Bingo||

    I unignored you just for this response. Do you feel special now?

  • ||

    Never click unignore. If you do, the terrorists win.

  • Sevo||

    "And, yes, on a libertarian site, libertarian views tend to be the topic of the day. Are you surprised at this?"

    Not at all. What never ceases to amaze me is the ever-present belief that anyone who could possibly see issues any differently must be a bloodthirsty communist or a mutant retard.

  • ||

    What amazes me is how you can beat that strawman to death while having a huge stick up your ass.

    I mean, doesn't it hurt when you swing around like that?

  • ||

    Hello, my name is heller.

    Something about me you may not know, is that one of my favorite past-times is pouring the separate components of a mixed-drink into my mouth (without swallowing), and then having a chlamydia-infected Filipino she-male (or "ladyboy" as they are colloquially known) use his penis to stir the contents in my mouth.

  • A Serious Man||

    Given how secretive North Korea is, I wouldn't be surprised if Kim-jong Il died a few days ago and are only now just releasing it.

    I say this because in my mind I can picture Hitchens shouting on his death bed "FREEEEEEDOOOOOMMMMM!!!!" and the Dear Leader dying at that exact instance.

  • veemee sashimi||

    He did, he died on the 17th.

  • db||

    What a lonely sad existence it must be to so desperately wish for the attention (be it love, hatred, sympathy, or disgust) of a bunch of strangers and to dedicate such long hours to obtaining it at the expense of one's own physical and mental well-being.

  • Chatroom Chatterer||

    Are you chatting about me?

  • Heroic Imagination||

    Václav Havel was a philosopher and statesman, but in the first place a heroic leader in a world where most people either did nothing to protest injustices and inhumanity, or were profiting from the evil regimes. Long live his inspiration and example to countless new heroes who will rise up to fill his shoes, acting with moral courage, and transforming compassion into courageous action, whenever confronted with challenges against overwhelming odds.

    I invite you to see my tribute to Václav Havel here: http://heroicimagination.com/2.....clav-havel

    Phil Zimbardo
    Founder and President
    The Heroic Imagination Project

GET REASON MAGAZINE

Get Reason's print or digital edition before it’s posted online

  • Video Game Nation: How gaming is making America freer – and more fun.
  • Matt Welch: How the left turned against free speech.
  • Nothing Left to Cut? Congress can’t live within their means.
  • And much more.

SUBSCRIBE

advertisement