The Confrontation

Drew Carey and Nick Gillespie clash with the Cleveland City Council over Reason Saves Cleveland.

Nick Gillespie & Drew Carey from the October 2010 issue

(Page 3 of 6)

Have there been bad decisions made in this city? You’re doggone right. I’m looking at one of them right over here, a stadium on the lakefront with no retractable roof on it. The only thing in there is seagulls and snow in the winter time. The Cavaliers’ practice field. Look at everything we’ve done for the Cavaliers. The first chance they get to repay the people of the city of Cleveland, they have to build their practice facility in Independence. So when they had an opportunity to reinvest in this city, [Cavaliers owner] Dan Gilbert didn’t want to do that. And if you look at the major companies that started in Cleveland and where they’re investing now, why? What’s the difference between Cleveland and Chicago? People in Chicago, the corporate community, have not abandoned the city. They have reinvested, and they live in the city.

Gillespie: You’ve done a very good job of explaining the decline of Cleveland, and how it’s not anybody’s fault at this table. That’s a way of kicking the can down the road, of saying, “OK, what we’ve got to do then is wait for China to stop doing business. We’ve got to wait for Washington to change things.”

You talk about the schools. Here’s the reality of Cleveland’s public schools: They’ve lost 40,000 students over the past decade. You pay about $16,000 per student in straight-up tuition cost, plus a lot more that gets embedded in capital cost. Three-quarters of the schools in the Cleveland public school system are on academic watch or emergency, which are the worst categories that the state has. How do you address that?

This is a way that you can address it without going so far as Columbus. Cities are always going to get screwed at various times and various places. Why not try turning every school that’s in Cleveland, or every school that’s on academic watch and academic emergency, into a charter school? Why not give poor kids the freedom to make the choice that those of us who are middle class or wealthy take for granted, either by paying tuition at private schools, or by moving to communities that have better schools? You can do that virtually overnight.

Polensek: You’ll find many of us around this table who support charters, who support vouchers. We want our children and our families to have an opportunity. But you did the Reason Foundation video and what I’m saying is, you whacked us pretty good. What I’m saying is, when you look at the condition we’re in today, it didn’t happen overnight. I’ve never stopped believing in Cleveland. That’s why I live here. This is a great city. We have cultural institutions second to none, we have a lakefront, we have the Cleveland Orchestra, best in the world. We have a lot going for us that nobody else has. But you know what we have is a lack of confidence within our corporate community, who want to talk the great fight, but when it comes down to putting their money where their mouth is, it doesn’t happen. And that needs to be said here.

Gillespie: Let me just suggest that one of the big problems is that declining cities often think about revitalization through corporate welfare. The most egregious forms are publicly funded stadiums, publicly funded convention centers.

Carey: We’re against cities helping billionaire owners buy stadiums.

Gillespie: Every independent analysis of that kind of activity shows that it does not create a local economy, it doesn’t help revive a local economy. So get out of that business and maybe more businesses will stay here.

Carey: I’ll tell you something else, no BS. The last time you got screwed by a business is not the last time you’re going to get screwed by a business here. There’s always going to be somebody who’s going to screw you. They’re going to come here and say, “Hey, Cleveland’s great, give us a deal,” and you give them the lowest taxes; they’re going to build a business here. And then when it’s convenient for them, they’re going to pull up and leave and disappoint you. It happens to every city, all over the country. It’s always going to happen. The trick is to make it so more businesses come in and invest than the ones that screw you and take off.

Polensek: You want to help Cleveland? Bring the Price Is Right show and put it on the road to Cleveland.

Gillespie: Embedded in the request to bring The Price Is Right to Cleveland, and I don’t mean to be overly argumentative, but: That is the problem. You know what? The Price is Right is not coming here, The Jersey Shore is not coming here; car manufacturing is not coming back here. What Cleveland has to do is say, “OK, what can we bring to the world,” not what can the world bring to us. And I suspect that when that mindset is gone, it will be six months into a great long-lived recovery of Cleveland.

Councilor Jeff Johnson: You pretty much have brought to the table a libertarian philosophy, and I’ve read your writings on your website, and since you’re here and since you brought this out, let me just say that on many things you say I agree. Many things you say I don’t agree with. Your philosophy is your philosophy. I’ve been in government almost 30 years now; I’m not a libertarian.

So our debate deals with this concept of, as you say, better, smallish, smarter. Decentralize, deregulate. The core values of libertarianism. Government, from my philosophy, can be an engine of change. It is not always the quickest way to a solution, but it is the fairest way to a solution. Government seeks to bring fairness and opportunities to all, whether it’s class, race, gender, what have you. Because the private sector historically has not done a great job of being fair with minorities, with gender, women. And so government has to step in at times to make sure we balance it. So my philosophy is not your philosophy. And we’ll agree to disagree on that.

You have a forum through the Internet to send provocative messages, and you’ve done one relative to my city. I am not defensive and thin-skinned; people know me. And I’ve challenged the leaders of this city continuously, as well as myself. But I will say, before we deal with some specifics, that I think that you took cheap shots at our city. T.S. Eliot’s The Waste Land, equating us to a [perennially losing] basketball team, using an analogy that we’re weak and others are strong—cheap shots. What I do is not entertainment. It is real life. Trying to stop a young 15-year-old with a 9mm from killing someone. Trying to deal with the results of the housing crisis. Trying to educate our children. I totally agree with you that competition in education is something that should be tried. I was an anti-voucher guy many years ago; I changed on that issue. I think Cleveland should compete, encourage competition, but the private sector, in and of itself, doesn’t mean they’re the best product.

And so the simplicity of your solutions does not help me. Raising the issue helps me, because it helps me be challenged by you. I’ve read through and I’ve looked at most of the videos and I would say you have achieved a goal, and that is to get our attention. Thank you, Mr. Carey, on that. But I need you to understand that there is hope and a plan in Cleveland. You may not agree with it, we may be moving too slowly for you, but there is. In the complication of government, it is easy to write about and compare on the outside, but on the ground, on the front lines, it is difficult when a federal government makes certain decisions that impact my people, like Councilor Polensek said. It is difficult with a state that fights over funding of schools and has told us it is unconstitutional and still won’t fix it.

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|9.8.10 @ 4:37PM|#

I read this in the print issue. I liked it. Will there also be a video?

Upgrayyed|9.8.10 @ 4:41PM|#

Please include footage of world class symphony orchestra in said video.

Flex Nasty B.I.G.|9.8.10 @ 5:04PM|#

That should be a double D - for a Double Dose of this pimpin'.

Upgrayyed|9.8.10 @ 5:26PM|#

Upgrayedd was trademarked by Brawndo, so I had to improvise.

Brawndo|9.9.10 @ 12:32PM|#

I like money.

|9.9.10 @ 6:54PM|#

Brought to you by Carl's Jr.

Spoonman.|9.8.10 @ 4:50PM|#

Still have fiery rage for "We don't want to be business friendly" lady.

canada goose expedition parka|9.11.10 @ 2:27PM|#

I'm loving the content you have on the site. Keep up the good work

A is Awesome|9.8.10 @ 4:50PM|#

"Nick Gillispie and Drew Carey talk to a few bricks in the wall." That was pretty much that entire thing.

Councilmembers: "Hey I get what you're saying, but I still disagree, because I'm a fucking idiot." I will be very suprised if they change anything at all, besides that sign regulation.

|9.8.10 @ 4:59PM|#

This is a quote that sums up the pols nicely:

And when you’re a central city in a region that wants to forget you, when you sell assets, you get forgotten, you get marginalized, you’re not in the room, you’re not at the table. So I’m not selling the airport. I’m not giving up my power to the port authority. I’m not selling the West Side Market. Why? Because I need to be at the table as a city.

They'll let the city crumble, so long as they have a seat at a table with only two legs.

|9.9.10 @ 10:04AM|#

Yes, THIS man NEEDS to have a job is what he's saying. So, he harrasses the city of Cleveland in order to be of importance.

|9.9.10 @ 11:49PM|#

Woah hold on. Are you advocating for MORE colors in signs? I think signes should be monochromatic so as not to discriminate against the color blind.

Tman|9.8.10 @ 5:13PM|#

The part where that councilman said (not verbatim but close enough) "some people think we should privatize parks and the government shouldn't be in the business of mowing lawns and taking care of trees, that we should only be arresting people, taking care of the trash and fixing roads with too many potholes, but I have a more "believability" in what government can do for change..that's just my philosophy.."

Well, there's your problem Cleveland. You have councilman who don't think that they are the problem, and who also believe that the government should do more than what is layed out in the constitution. Until idiots like this are either reformed or voted out you will continue to be a national punchline.

That "change" quote made me throw up a little in my mouth too.

Virginia|9.8.10 @ 5:21PM|#

I think the same guy said:

Part of the golf course issue is accessibility, where private golf courses, in the past, have denied African Americans access. Now, you might be able to sell more golf tees [by privatizing the courses], but I have to make sure there’s accessibility on at least one golf course to, not necessarily race now, but to class.

I don't get it. Not at all.

Tman|9.8.10 @ 5:30PM|#

Exactly. It makes no sense at all. Government is inefficient in many ways, but one thing I'm absolutely sure of is that they shouldn't be managing golf courses.

It doesn't say "life, liberty, a decent back nine with some nice bunkers, and the pursuit of happiness."

The fact that they are even discussing whether or not the government should be running a FARKING GOLF COURSE is an indication that they are not going to change anything in Cleveland.

Mango Punch|9.8.10 @ 5:51PM|#

See, it doesn't have to, because "a decent back nine with some nice bunkers" is the definition of the pursuit of happiness.

Tman|9.8.10 @ 6:07PM|#

You mean "playing" a decent back nine with some nice bunkers is the definition. "Pursuit of Happiness" does not mean the government will provide you with a golf course.

|9.11.10 @ 12:26AM|#

What about us bowlers, this is CLASS WARFARE!

|9.8.10 @ 5:52PM|#

""The fact that they are even discussing whether or not the government should be running a FARKING GOLF COURSE is an indication that they are not going to change anything in Cleveland.""

Right. And if the people of Cleveland don't give them the boot, they get what they deserve.

|9.14.10 @ 3:06PM|#

I would like government run bowling alleys.

|9.8.10 @ 5:16PM|#

Sweeney: Let me give some context to this. If you apply for a sign that’s within our regulation, it would take somewhere between three and five days. If it’s outside the regulations, it needs to be [no bigger than] four foot by eight foot, no more than two or three colors. If you want to go 10 by 10, and put it up a little bit higher, and have 10 colors on it, you have to get approval to go outside the variance.

Carey: Why does it matter how many colors are on it?

Sweeney: It’s one of the regulations we have.

Note he doesn't even question whether the damned city needs to regulate signs at all. "It's one of the regulations we have". Sheesh!

Wegie|9.8.10 @ 9:01PM|#

How many times are you and Reason going to run the same stupid stuff??? Anarchy sucks and it will never happen....at least for long.

iamtheeviltwin|9.8.10 @ 9:43PM|#

Yes, because how many colors you have on a sign or being allowed to place whatever size sign you want on your own property is exactly the same as Anarchy...

Did you even bother to read the article? Here is a quote from just a bit further in about the same situation:

Gillespie: There are ways of switching the default positions so that rather than having to apply for a variance you are automatically granted whatever land use you’re doing unless there is a specific objection made, so that instead of the onus being on the business owner, it’s actually on somebody who would have an objection. Things like that.

Wow, that really sounds like Anarchy to me...take your Strawman and go home.

Wegie|9.8.10 @ 11:07PM|#

We had this pissing match on a thread about the samething about two days ago....where were you?

iamtheeviltwin|9.9.10 @ 8:23AM|#

Lurking...

You obviously couldn't distinguish between limited/less Government and Anarchy in that thread either.

It just seemed like an easy time to bring that fact home again, especially since the arguments made in the article had nothing to do with Anarchy.

Wegie|9.9.10 @ 9:36AM|#

"You obviously couldn't distinguish between limited/less Government and Anarchy in that thread either." You're obviously too fucking stupid to find the thread or can't read!

|9.9.10 @ 10:44AM|#

RockLibertyWarrior|9.9.10 @ 2:50AM|#

Wegie I am sorry but your a bit of a moron. Just speaking the truth:)

Wegie|9.9.10 @ 9:37AM|#

You're kind of a sick shit if you think you know the "truth".

Jorj X. McKie|9.8.10 @ 10:20PM|#

Maybe they can pass some regulations to better regulate the regulations.

|9.9.10 @ 11:53PM|#

They call it an incinerator.

|9.8.10 @ 5:21PM|#

These people are incapable of thinking this way. Also, no mention of the fact that one dude's been there for 3 decades IS THE PROBLEM?

|9.8.10 @ 5:45PM|#

He's not the problem, he's a victim too.

Boo hoo.

Virginia|9.8.10 @ 5:26PM|#

A good deal of blame placed at the foot of the Feds and Columbus by these guys and yet their omnipotent command/control is the solution??! Wow, the irony of that nearly gave me a concussion.

|9.8.10 @ 5:37PM|#

I go back to my new meme.

There is no hope...

...but there is revenge.

City council men and mayors and county commissioners etc really are not in strong positions they can be kicked out of office easily with little money and little effort.

Simply pick the worse of the worse then dive into a Nixon bag of dirty tricks and get them booted from office.

Will this make a difference in the long run?

I do not know...but i do not care any more. If these fuckers want to continue destroying economies and bossing poeple around then we should make them suffer. Fuck em.

Note: i do not care who replaces them any longer. They will always be just as bad or worse or only a little bit better then the last guy. The point is not to make government better. The point is to make the enemies of liberty suffer.

Sean W. Malone|9.9.10 @ 4:24PM|#

"A Nixon-bag"

Sean W. Malone|9.9.10 @ 4:25PM|#

Or maybe +2... whatever you say, Squirrel

|9.8.10 @ 5:42PM|#

Shorter Polensek:
Them damn corporations and their doin' what's in their best interest! They should be doin' what's in MY best interest! Turncoats!

Shannon Love|9.8.10 @ 9:18PM|#

I think this is really the heart of to many people's philosophy of government. They are basically selfish, self-involved people who demand that everyone else make sacrifices for their benefit.

Carey and Gillespie are desperately trying to explain to the politicians that Cleveland has to become a community in which economic creatives can create wealth. The politicians respond by asking why economic creatives (especially those with no roots in Cleveland) don't sacrifice massively for Cleveland's sake. Almost everything they complain about comes down to "Oh, why won't everyone else think about me!"

Wealth and security ultimately come from making yourself valuable to other people i.e. making them better off for having interacted with you. If your cities dominate political philosophy is based on the idea that you have a right to make people worse off for having interacted with you, well...

... you are so screwed.

|9.8.10 @ 5:44PM|#

I think Nick and Drew found the problem.

The voting people of Cleveland. How else can someone stay on city council for so long when the city is dying.

|9.8.10 @ 6:09PM|#

How else can someone stay on city council for so long when the city is dying.

Cuz the poeple who would run against or vote against him left.

Jorj X. McKie|9.8.10 @ 10:28PM|#

And opened a strip club in Houston... right next to a daycare!

|9.9.10 @ 10:46AM|#

I'm wondering if (and if not, why not) no one mentioned to the esteemed councilwoman that it's not her job to look out for the interests of churches and religious institutions. I mean, isn't that somehow unconstitutional?

slutmonkey|9.9.10 @ 7:40PM|#

Yes. But to her this isn't about what she is allowed to do by the constitution--who cares about the constitution?--to her it's about what people want and what she feels like she can do in return for her votes. This is something she can offer. The courts should strike it down, but they aren't so she's offering it.

|9.9.10 @ 11:57PM|#

She can probably get 50% voter turnout by offering BJ's and HJ's to on every third tuesday.

Mango Punch|9.8.10 @ 5:48PM|#

The result was nearly three hours of flying sparks...

There's no way that transcript amounted to anywhere close to 3 hours of discussion.

|9.8.10 @ 5:51PM|#

The 3 hours includes the time they were staring at Drew and Nick as if they were aliens.

Digital Ruse|9.8.10 @ 6:08PM|#

They were hypnotized by "the jacket".

(Not Nick's mind you... it sadly absent from these festivities.)

Colonel_Angus|9.9.10 @ 12:35AM|#

It was an edited, probably abridged transcript.

|9.8.10 @ 6:11PM|#

Drew should just give up on Cleveland.

It should be a learning experience. If Cleveland was a good city he would have stayed there to live and earn money. It isn't so he left. And everyone else with any talent or drive has left as well.

Fuck em let em rot in their crappy city with their crappy city council.

|9.8.10 @ 6:43PM|#

Drew Carey won't take the Price Is Right to Cleveland. Drew Carey Hates Cleveland.

Ohio refugee|9.8.10 @ 7:43PM|#

I just "disinvested" in Cleveland myself. As someone who managed to escape this cesspit of dumbfuck and fail, I swear there must be something in the water here. It's the epicenter of everything wrong with America.

|9.8.10 @ 10:27PM|#

It's a regional thing. As a refugee from Buffalo, I can attest to the same dynamics at play there.

In these older cities (and newer ones, for that matter), the city councils are in the pockets of land developers. New stadium construction, big fancy public libraries, new zoos, commuter rail lines that go nowhere--these projects make millions for the businesses who profit from government largess.

I don't see stupid politicians here. I see intelligent politicians doing their best to protect their paying, as opposed to voting, constituents. They just can't do it without sounding stupid. Drew and Nick are tilting at windmills here.

|9.9.10 @ 5:41PM|#

the city councils are in the pockets of land developers.

You are an idiot.

Here is a question for you...do developers like Huston style regulations or do they like Cleveland style regulations.

Nine times out of ten the developer would pick Huston style.

Cleveland Councilperson|9.9.10 @ 6:08PM|#

That's an unfair comparison. Houston is full of grassy fields, while Cleveland is nothing but crack houses, Superfund sites, and closed down LeBron James 24-hour superstores.

slutmonkey|9.9.10 @ 7:34PM|#

It's not about the scenery. It's about how much time/expense the developer has to go through to get shit done relative to his return on investment. If the regulation were the same, Cleveland's low property values would make it CHEAPER to build there which would be a big influence on businessmen.

Basically if you have a regulation that adds time or expense, getting rid of it will make investment more worthwhile and you will get more investment. DO THIS.

|9.8.10 @ 6:40PM|#

Exsqueeze me while I clean the brains of my monitor from the 20 megaton head assplosion I just experienced.

I'm debating whether to send this to my Pa...cardiovascular trouble runs in the family and I don't want to risk it.

Jorj X. McKie|9.8.10 @ 10:31PM|#

I don't think Pa's heart could take another assplosion.

EasyPeasy|9.8.10 @ 7:00PM|#

Will the last person to leave Cleaveland please turn off the lights?

|9.9.10 @ 1:55AM|#

This assumes the lights haven't been shut off by the power company already.

Duke|9.8.10 @ 8:01PM|#

Earlier in the year I made good on my goal of getting more politically active. I started to attend as many Republican/conservative events as possible, acting under the assumption that this would be the best way to promote my libertarian ideas. What I found, sadly, were people exactly like these councilmen; lots of politicians/aspiring politicians who had zero concept of principle. Everything thing I heard was either generic bs rhetoric or blame of everyone else.

|9.9.10 @ 1:53AM|#

Politics seems to attract authoritarian personalities with a fetish for complex and arbitrary rules.

See, you had to make it a goal to be more politically active. Career politicians just assume it is their role to be a politician.

Virginia|9.8.10 @ 8:17PM|#

Every Cleveland post should link to the hastily made Cleveland tourism video. I'm sure we've all seen it hundreds of times already but it's still a classic.

Warty|9.8.10 @ 8:34PM|#

You know, I love Cleveland, and I love my home state, but I really don't understand why anymore. I'm sure I'll be gone as soon as I finish becoming Dr. Warty.

|9.8.10 @ 8:42PM|#

Dr. Warty? They give PH'd's to be a hedonbot? And I went to law school. What a fucking idiot i was.

Warty|9.8.10 @ 8:47PM|#

You don't want to know what our orals are like.

ratfucker|9.8.10 @ 8:47PM|#

Maybe if The Drew Carey Show was as good as The Mary Tyler Moore Show, Cleveland would be as nice as Minneapolis-St. Paul

Concerned Citizen|9.9.10 @ 9:22AM|#

It was better.

Warty|9.8.10 @ 9:00PM|#

Gillespie: That would make Sunday a lot easier, though.

Cleveland: I don’t know about that. Not in my community.

The only thing worse than a power-mad bitch is a power-mad bitch with no sense of humor.

Shannon Love|9.8.10 @ 9:34PM|#

More and more I think the real problem with the industrial states around the Great Lakes was that we won WWII.

In the aftermath of the war from 1945-1965, the US was producing as much as 50% of the GDP of the entire planet. About 80% of that production happened in the Great Lake states. Basically, a complex of Big Business, Big Unions and Big Government existed that had a de facto monopoly on industrial production in the free world.

Unions and Governments in particular could name their own price. The UAW had a monopoly on building cars, the United Steel Workers had a monopoly on making steel and so on. If you wanted cars or steel you paid their price or went without. If you didn't they shut the entire industry down. Local government likewise could levy any tax on business and the business would pass that on to their customers outside the region.

This situation was untenable but I think that the political and social culture of the region froze solid at the pinnacle of their success. Instead of seeing the boom era as freakish and caused by external events, they instead believed it was created by the three Bigs. After the rest of the world rebuilt and changed, the region had forgotten how to compete. They kept trying to act like the other industrial regions of the world still lay in rubble. They kept trying to act like you just couldn't conceivably build a factory in Texas.

This "conversation" in the article is really just the city council explaining that they can't do anything unless conditions revert to the monopolies of the post war era. They simply do not have any clue how to operate outside of an enforced monopoly situation. They really don't understand how to function in an open competitive environment.

Refugee from Wheeling, WV|9.9.10 @ 9:23AM|#

What he said!

|9.8.10 @ 9:36PM|#

Every time I go to Toronto, I think to myself: "This is what a successful Buffalo would look like" It's fascinating, the same climate, same architecture, and same prominence 50 years ago, yet one flourished and one died.

|9.8.10 @ 9:53PM|#

Jesus would put his church next to a strip club.

Spencer Smith|9.9.10 @ 10:49AM|#

'cause the son of god loved him some strange.

|9.9.10 @ 1:47AM|#

This right here says it all:

Carey: Why does it matter how many colors are on it?

Sweeney: It’s one of the regulations we have.

Carey: Get rid of it.

Greer|9.9.10 @ 2:08AM|#

Having just slogged through the whole thing. The thing that jumps out at me is that the 2 sides are not talking about the same thing. Gillespie and Carey are talking about efficiency and creating more business and the politicians are talking about regulation and making sure that poor black kids can golf.

I did realize from this exchange that politicians care about different things than we do. We want for our home cities to be efficient, helpful to business, a place where people and the creation of wealth can thrive. The politicians are worried about making teh population happy through equality. they are worried about reacting to the pressures of what other governments will do to them. These people sound embattled and beaten down. They don't really sound like they could fathom letting people make their own signs because they can't disentangle themselves from the problems they have in just running the place on a day to day basis. None of them sounded happy or creative or willing to think of new solutions. Only to get through the day.

Nash|9.9.10 @ 4:05AM|#

It's pretty exasperating listening to these people. Their logic is that the reason Cleveland sucks is everyone else's fault. It's because people are poor and can't fend for themselves. It's because there isn't enough education funding. It's because China stole our jobs. It's because other cities are stealing their population.

Lot's of finger pointing and zero solutions even though Nick and Drew are sitting there giving them a laundry list of things they can at least TRY TO DO.

Unreal. Cleveland apparently got the government it deserves.

|9.9.10 @ 6:15AM|#

Imagine the fight to shrink the federal government. Good lord.

|9.9.10 @ 8:25AM|#

I think it's simple. Tie the council's salaries to Cleveland's performance, on a number of metrics. See how quick they're willing to listen then.

Mistake on da lake|9.9.10 @ 8:33AM|#

Drew or Nick should have said this:
"let's put it this way. Lebron James, cold and unscrupulous he may be, is not the only person to have taken his talents elsewhere."

Fatty Bolger|9.9.10 @ 10:40AM|#

If they had a time machine available, maybe they could have. (This meeting took place in May.)

|9.9.10 @ 10:09AM|#

I am relevant. ME ME ME. If a councilman doesn't add regualtion then what do they do?
Maybe man's thought of civic duty is hopless? Don't make a career out of being in govt jerk.
Now, keep me safe with more sign regulations. The public desires more "Structure".

kph|9.9.10 @ 11:45AM|#

I think a big part of the problem is council members who have served for 30+ years. It was obvious in their comments that the belief that government is the solution has become entrenched, which leads them to think that issue, such as divestiture by business, is the cause of the problem rather than the result of poor public
policy and regulation.

It doesn't help that they confuse having cultural trophies, which may add to civic pride and quality of life, like the symphony and pro sports teams with the need to reform a regulatory environment that would attract job creating investment by
businesses. Until they acknowledge that Cleveland's current economic condition is as much a result of their policies as it is external forces, they will continue to do the same thing that have kept them on this downward spiral.

What Cleveland needs is new leadership.

Drax the Destroyer|9.9.10 @ 11:57AM|#

I have a feeling that the unabridged transcript had an exchange like this:

Councilman Fuckbag: So Drew...Nick, what you are telling us is that we should currently take everything we are concerned with as councilpeople at this moment and cut it in half?

Nick: For a start I guess...

Carey: 90% is probably better.

Councilman Fuckbag: But…but what would we do all day? Do you think the citizens of Cleveland would tolerate us sitting around, only looking at crime statistics and road management issues all day long? Each one of us makes 4 times the average Clevelander salary? How can we justify that with the paltry duties limited government demands?

Carey: I suppose you can’t. In the end, each one of you should probably only be working for the city 1 day a week. Max.

Nick: Make that half a day.

Councilman Fuckbag: But what are we supposed to do for chrissakes? I can’t go and drift in the streets for 6 days a week like those other dumb fuc... unfortunate citizens out there?

Nick: Well, you could start a business, and without your lauded regulations in the way it should be relatively easy.

Councilman Fuckbag: But we don’t know how to do anything productive.

Carey: WalMart needs its shelves stocked and horny men need their dicks sucked. Plenty of people have got by meeting those demands.

Councilman Fuckbag: (((Mouth Agape, Christian Sensibilities Offended)))

Nick: See. You should be able to do one of those things!

joe|9.9.10 @ 1:25PM|#

+10000

|9.9.10 @ 4:29PM|#

wow...that sounds just like Nick.

|9.15.10 @ 2:35PM|#

I don't think Democrats have Christian sensibilities to be offended.

|9.9.10 @ 6:09PM|#

In re size of signs, etc. - I'm sympathetic to the libertarian point of view, of course, but do you really want the business next to you to put up a billboard, blotting out the sun? Just because one city councilman couldn't justify the regulation doesn't mean the regulation doesn't have a reason. Some businesses get pretty obnoxious signage, and it can affect property values...

slutmonkey|9.9.10 @ 7:17PM|#

"There are ways of switching the default positions so that rather than having to apply for a variance you are automatically granted whatever land use you’re doing unless there is a specific objection made, so that instead of the onus being on the business owner, it’s actually on somebody who would have an objection. Things like that."

This is the heart of the regulation debate. Following this advice is what makes the difference between a business friendly city and a city with no business.

There are infinite possibilities for what a business owner might want to do. You want to let business owners find the solution that works for them, and AFTER he does, then if people complain you can try to resolve complaints. The problem is that when you try to PREVENT complaints with regulations you remove the freedoms that allow business to develop those business models. When you do that business must go elsewhere.

|9.10.10 @ 12:05AM|#

People need to stop complaining about fucking signs. Christ its a sign, nobody is trying to shove a fir tree up your ass. Chill out and learn to enjoy signs.

Billy Joe Bob|9.10.10 @ 6:07AM|#

I love Gillespie and Carey for the intelligent, thoughtful attempt at getting discussion from the so-called "leaders" of Cleveland. It's good for general education purposes. However, as a former Ohioan transplanted to a worse situation (Chicago), I know that no amount of discussion is going to change the minds of these idiot politicians who will continue to wish for municipal ponies and unicorns to come their way, even as more and more cities will go the way of Detroit (and yeah, Cleveland, you're well on your way).

Therefore, despite his best efforts and intentions, the political reality of the stupidity of councilmen and pols will still rule the day and this series will eventually need to be renamed, "Drew Carey Gets the Shit Beat out of Him by Cleveland."

Oh well, Mr. Carey. At least Cleveland has an intelligent, talented, native-son booster you. I have the fucking oncoming political Haitian Earthquake named Rahm Emanuel to look forward to in Shit-cago...

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Teddy KGB|9.14.10 @ 1:17AM|#

From the transcript it's obvious the city has no leadership. No one wants to accept responsibility... just pass the buck to the state and feds. That town is screwed. It's sad too. From watching the series the city does seem to have great potential. With the understanding that the potential will only be met when the idiots in charge are gone.

|9.14.10 @ 9:43AM|#

Brilliant!
This is the kind of discussion every major US city needs to have. Did you see all the excuses given to why Cleveland is failing? Did you see the attitude of helplessness?

These are the people who are supposed to run the city, and they behave like a bunch of losers. The founders of Cleveland would have never recognized these people. Cleveland has had a longtime competition with Pittsburg, but now these "leaders" sit around and only see excuses why their city sucks, instead of seeing what it can offer.

These people have overregulated themselves out of business. Every age-old excuse not to do something has been put into the books and turned into a sacred cow. These "leaders" are perfectly comfortable sitting in this rotting city and fingerpointing when someone comes up with a good idea or a problem.

Cleveland has no future with these people at the helm. They claim they are pro-Cleveland, but they are not - they are pro-historical-Cleveland. They cling to what the City once was, not what it could be. They have gotten fat and happy and no longer have an interest in opening the doors of this city to the world.

As to why Portland, Denver and other overregulated cities are not dying, as one of the council members brings up, well, look at those cities! They don't have frozen winter winds, flat prairies, and the utter lack of natural beauty Cleveland has. Cleveland exists to make money! The moment the City stopped being that, there was no natural beauty for it to live off of.

I hope the City fires every single one of these mopes and elects a new generation of leaders who understands that when their city isn't embracing the world - the world won't embrace it.

mystified|9.14.10 @ 7:02PM|#

If this is the thinking of our elected officials, we are in more trouble than I thought. The council members come across as defensive and clueless. In a city deteriorating as quickly as Cleveland they are concerned with who can play golf. Should we buy them a fiddle while Cleveland burns. Pathetic.

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