Safe, But Also Sorry

Security expert Bruce Schneier talks about privacy and property in the information state

Katherine Mangu-Ward | January 16, 2009

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Reason: Security and privacy (or, more controversially, security and freedom) are often described as being in opposition. When is that true? When it is untrue?

Schneier: The security vs. privacy dichotomy is a false one. Only identity-based security is in opposition to privacy, and there are limitations to that approach. I believe that approximately two security improvements since 9/11 have made airplane travel safer: reinforcing the cockpit door, teaching passengers they have to fight back, and—maybe—sky marshals. None of those measures has any impact on privacy. It's things like ID cards, and wholesale eavesdropping on telephone calls and Internet conversations, and large government databases that affect privacy, and their security value is minimal. The real dichotomy is liberty vs. control. There might be less crime in a society with strong government controls and police-state-like surveillance, but I don't think anyone would feel safer in that society.

Reason: What's your reaction when you hear people say that we live in a "security state"?

Schneier: We live in an information state, which is subtly different. All computer processes produce data as a byproduct. As more parts of our lives are mediated by computers, more personal information about us is produced. This information is collected, and then bought and sold, by other institutions, both government and commercial, without our knowledge and consent. Some of this is driven by security concerns, but a lot of it is driven by economics. The problem is that personal data is looked at as property, which can be bought and sold, instead of as a right. Long term, we need to fix that.

Reason: Do you consider yourself an optimist? Why?

Schneier: I consider myself a realist. Most people who say that are really pessimists, but I'm not. Most people are honest and trustworthy; society would fall apart if that weren't the case. Attacks are rare. Ten times as many people die each year in car crashes than did on 9/11, and the most dangerous part of an airplane journey is still the taxi ride to the airport.

Security is designed to protect us from the dishonest minority. It's important to remember that. I remember being told as a child: "Never talk to strangers." That's actually stupid advice. If a child is lost or scared or alone, the smartest thing he can do is find a kindly looking stranger to talk to. The real advice is: "Don't answer strangers who talk to you first." The difference is important. In the first case, the child selects the stranger—and the odds of him selecting a bad person are pretty negligible. In the second case, the stranger selects the child; that's more dangerous. I don't think that's either optimism to rightly point out that most people are honest, or pessimism to figure out how to best secure ourselves from the dishonest minority; it's analytical realism.

Katherine Mangu-Ward is an associate editor of Reason magazine.

Comments

Naga Sadow|1.16.09 @ 3:13PM|#

Fantastic article! He outlined why, unless I'm flying to LA or Denver, I don't fly.

Mad Max|1.16.09 @ 3:14PM|#

This Schneier guy sounds like a suspicious character. He should be on a list, if he isn't already.

Kolohe|1.16.09 @ 3:15PM|#

Basically, we're talking fanny packs here, people. So get ready for Obama's America to look something like a href="http://www.hotelchatter.com/files/admin/fanny_pack.jpg">this

How long have you lived in DC? That's what every single mall denizen has looked like for nearly three decades now.

Kolohe|1.16.09 @ 3:19PM|#

A quibble with this:
Conversely, it makes no sense for bank customers to be penalized for identity theft losses. They're in no position to mitigate the risks-whereas the banks are-so customers shouldn't be responsible for the losses.
They're in no position to mitigate the risks-whereas the banks are-so customers shouldn't be responsible for the losses.

There are certain de minimus steps that individuals need to take to mitigate identity theft risks. Failure to do so makes any broader system implemented by the industry worthless.

Kolohe|1.16.09 @ 3:19PM|#

man I suck

SpongePaul|1.16.09 @ 3:23PM|#

The security protacalls that were in place prior to 9/11 were sufficient, the info was not acted on, that is a failure to act, not a need for more gov intrusion. the patriot act and all laws since tsa homeland etc are just ballast weighing America down. WE need MUCH FEWER LAWS AND SECURITY, BUT WELL ENFORCED AND Getting the info out, then acting on it is what is needed! Rem. the cia fbi and even the pres were briefed on the people that pulled off 9/11. it was ignored as not a threat!

Kolohe|1.16.09 @ 3:27PM|#

Nonetheless I will try one more time:
I believe that approximately two security improvements since 9/11 have made airplane travel safer: reinforcing the cockpit door, teaching passengers they have to fight back, and-maybe-sky marshals.

But the reinforcing the door is not without it's downside either. There is evidence that a Greek plane crashed a few years ago because they suffered a depressurization event, and the cabin crew could not get into the cockpit after the flight deck crew was incapacitiated.

I agree that tech isn't the sole part of a security solution. And we can only mitigate not eliminate. But saying that 'boring old concepts like culture and economics' will solve our problems evades the question. (much like when people say "we need to do more diplomacy")

SpongePaul|1.16.09 @ 3:36PM|#

I believe that approximately two security improvements since 9/11 have made airplane travel safer: reinforcing the cockpit door, teaching passengers they have to fight back, and-maybe-sky marshal
__________________________________________
I will give ya the doors, but that was just a simple fix. as far as sky marshals, we already had them, just not as many. And as far as fighting back, that would be common sense no? At least to me it would have been. my motto is dont go easy into the good night. people being pussies and not standing up for themselves and others, by LETTING and yes i mean LETTING the hijackers take over. 4 guys with box cutters against a plane full o people, no contest. If peeps had balls the planes would still be flying

Leftiti|1.16.09 @ 3:36PM|#

If we save the life of just one elitist crook it'll all be worth it.

JW Gacy|1.16.09 @ 4:16PM|#

Not to be a snob, but I saw SpongePaul's mutilation of the word, "protocol" and made a mental note to disregard his future posts.

|1.16.09 @ 4:23PM|#

No mention of an armed citizenry, or at least armed pilots?

Paul|1.16.09 @ 4:29PM|#

Great article. I have one minor quibble. The reason we focus on airline security is because historically, terrorists have had an odd fascination with the airlines.

SpongePaul|1.16.09 @ 4:38PM|#

JW Gacy | January 16, 2009, 4:16pm | #

Not to be a snob, but I saw SpongePaul's mutilation of the word, "protocol" and made a mental note to disregard his future posts.
____________________________________________
I am dyslexic, thank you! At least my handle is not that of a serial killer mr gacy

|1.16.09 @ 5:37PM|#

SpongePaul, your assumption that we fight back against hijackers being common sense is fine. Now, anyway. Hijackers USED to take a plane to a foreign country somewhere, make a bunch of demands, maybe kill a few passengers to show how serious they were, and then let most people go. So resisting the hijackers back then may not have done any good. Actually, it may have gotten more people killed. So before 9/11 you may have been better off just sitting quietly, trying not to draw any attention to yourself.

Now? Hell yeah people are going to fight back. The second that hijackers decided that they'd fly planes into buildings they changed the game. I don't think you'll ever see that again, unless the hijackers can incapacitate every passenger and member of the flight crew.

But the passengers of those flights couldn't even conceive of a group that fanatic. They probably thought they'd end up at a deserted airfield in Mexico and that they may get out of things okay in a few days. Now we know better. I think the lesson was learned.

geniusiknowit|1.16.09 @ 5:42PM|#

Let the market meet the security needs of airline passengers.


Awww hell, who am I kidding? The market is prone to failure and only the government can protect us!

cuernimus|1.16.09 @ 7:31PM|#

The turnout for the Obama inauguration will be a major boon for Republicans come the next election. So many excited people coming out to see Obama, only to be really cold and really bored for a really long time. If enough presidents engage in such over the top and ultimately unfulfilling self-congratulation, eventually the Pavlovian shudder these people will suffer from any mentioning of politics will lead to libertarians being the majority party! Of course, we'd still lose every election, but at least it's a start.

|1.16.09 @ 8:04PM|#

Only Fanny Packs huh? This one appears to be an officially approved size.

|1.16.09 @ 8:08PM|#

Oops... This one appears to be an officially approved size. ... er... if you get the "small" version.

|1.16.09 @ 10:49PM|#

Very wise comment at the end, regarding talking to strangers. If a kid is running away from danger, he shouldn't be afraid to ask a stranger for help.

-jcr

|1.17.09 @ 4:58PM|#

With a little help for my friend.

The fear of
the darkness
again disappears
when my
memory lives,
saving the pleasure
of a natural life;
and a thanks
overcomes, like
a delicate bird
near a shining
fountain.

Francesco Sinibaldi

|1.18.09 @ 8:34PM|#

Bruce Schneier is the man when it comes to security. I've been following his work since I first read "Applied Cryptography" back in '97.

|1.19.09 @ 11:58AM|#

Hijackers USED to take a plane to a foreign country somewhere, make a bunch of demands, maybe kill a few passengers to show how serious they were, and then let most people go. So resisting the hijackers back then may not have done any good.

I disagree. The passive submission doctrine was always a bad doctrine, on moral and practical grounds. Passenger resistance would have brought an end to highjacking very early on. Not only would it have made successful highjackings virtually impossible, it would have made even a successful highjacking a PR disaster for the perps. It would have made the whole thing a no-win game for the bad guys.

|1.20.09 @ 12:12AM|#

You know what's ironic.. Holsters have been available in fanny pack styles for so long, my police friends tell me they always assume that's what they are.

NM|1.24.09 @ 10:21AM|#

@Nick: "No mention of an armed citizenry, or at least armed pilots?"

There are several orders of magnitude more idiots and crazy people than terrorists. Take 200 people, put them in a confined space; there's gonna be on average one with some form of psychosis, drug withdrawal or anger management problem. In fact, probably more. How likely is it that a bona fide terrorist be on any given plane? One in ten millions?

Do you seriously believe that this is a reasonable security trade-off?

@SpongePaul: "At least to me it would have been. my motto is dont go easy into the good night. people being pussies and not standing up for themselves and others, by LETTING and yes i mean LETTING the hijackers take over. 4 guys with box cutters against a plane full o people, no contest. If peeps had balls the planes would still be flying"

That is precisely Schneier's point; before 9/11 the common "wisdom" was to let the hijackers take over, because it was assumed that they were just going to take the plane somewhere, not crash it on purpose. It had nothing to do with having cojones or not. Nowadays I'm pretty certain that anyone would fight back, esp. considering that you'd expect that everyone else will, thus making the risk of being injured for any one person quite low.