The Real Community Organizer

Craig Newmark on Craigslist, libertarianism, online democracy, and nerd values

Katherine Mangu-Ward from the January 2009 issue

(Page 2 of 3)

Click above to watch Katherine Mangu-Ward’s interview with Craig Newmark.

 
reason: Is online voting a good idea?

Newmark: Online voting is a particularly great idea when it can’t be so easily compromised. Right now, I’m very worried about voter fraud—not the grassroots type, which has been proven to be a hoax, but the kind where machines are corrupted or people disenfranchise voters. Just a couple of days ago, an effort by some Republicans in Ohio failed. They were trying to disenfranchise, among others, soldiers serving overseas. That ain’t right.

The best vision I’ve seen of online voting, frankly, has been in fiction. I’m thinking of a book, The Probability Broach, by L. Neil Smith, which I read maybe 20 years ago but I still remember.

reason: How much do you think the government should be involved in regulating the Internet?

Newmark: Right now, there’s a lot of flux when it comes to government and regulation and the Net. It’s a pretty big, confused area. The government has done things well, such as some of the protections for Internet sites in the Communications Decency Act, Section 230 [which protects owners and operators of websites from liability for content that other people post on their site]. The irony there is that it’s a pretty good law—at least that section—but at Craigslist I’m finding cases of lawyers who don’t know the law and act on that ignorance of the law, which has been both irritating and entertaining. There’ve been a number of lawsuits threatened or initiated based on a total lack of knowledge of Internet law.

Beyond that, there is still some bad legislation involving intellectual property rights. The leader addressing that is the Electronic Frontier Foundation. I recommend everyone join.

There’s also net neutrality. It’s actually a lot simpler than a lot of people are making it. Basically, telecoms and ISPs make their money on the Net by using public resources: the airwaves, rights of way in the ground—that’s where they lay cables or whatever. So in return for letting private companies use public resources, we expect a few things out of them. We expect them to adhere to some traditional American values like trying to provide a level playing field for people, just treating people fairly to the extent possible. Really hard to do because, well, how do you define what’s fair? But a fairly easy issue is this net neutrality thing, which, to oversimplify, says that if you’re going to put a server on the Net to support your business or your political position or your nonprofit, people should be able to get served by you on an equal basis to someone who might pay a lot of money for potential privileges. So the net neutrality guys say, “Let’s provide this level playing field, let’s try to be fair, let’s aspire to it, and, yeah, let’s not give people privileges just because they can pay for them.”

It’s a tough issue because it does mean some rule setting, but that’s the cost of using public resources. I feel very strongly about this, in part because I’ve also seen some of the more predatory lobbyists put together fake grassroots websites and organizations, Astroturf sites like Hands Off the Internet.

reason: Does Craigslist have much stake in net neutrality?

Newmark: Net neutrality probably doesn’t affect Craigslist as a company because the kind of bandwidth involved with our site is pretty low. We started when having a 56K modem or even a 20K modem was a bit of a luxury, and we remember those times. That’s why our site is text-heavy and why one of the continuing high priorities of the tech guys is keeping the site fast. Net neutrality is of concern mostly to people who are thinking about video.

reason: You have called yourself a libertarian, but you have also said that you’re struggling for a term. Maybe you could talk about what brought you to the word libertarian and why you also shy away from it.

Newmark: Well, I’ve been libertarian-influenced ever since high school. Like many folks, I read a few things by Ayn Rand, even making a pilgrimage to her offices and—this goes back about 40 years, which is horrifying to say—even meeting Murray Rothbard back then, being a member of the Society for Individual Liberty for some years, then drifting away because I sensed that sometimes libertarian ideals don’t mesh well with the real world. The market has failed to provide good health care for people, and if I believe that I should treat people like I want to be treated, well, that means trying to give people a break. But I do prefer market solutions, and that means I’m some kind of a hybrid libertarian. I need a term. “Libertarian moderate” is better than nothing, but it’s not catchy enough. [Daily Kos founder] Markos Moulitsas calls himself a “libertarian Democrat” but I’m more of an independent.

reason: Could you tell the story of your Rothbard pilgrimage?

Newmark: This was an awfully long time ago, but one of my high school friends somehow connected with a guy named Ralph Fucetola. I don’t know what’s happened to him. He was, let’s say, one of the more anarchistic-style libertarians.

Comments

|12.12.08 @ 12:16PM|#

I would like to thank Mr. Newmark for two things: One, all of the fantastic furniture I've found on Craigslist on the super-cheap, and Two: the "best of Craigslist" section of the site, which as far as I'm concerned is the funniest part of the internet.

So thanks! Pretty good interview, too.

|12.12.08 @ 12:36PM|#

Where else can you shop for used furniture, sell computer equipment, find a part-time job, bitch about politics, and find a midnight booty-call all on one site?

I've been trying on Hit&Run for years, but have yet to manage all of them at once

|12.12.08 @ 12:43PM|#

A couple hundred years ago the founders of this country invented representative democracy

They did?

|12.12.08 @ 12:49PM|#

Some of them even endorse new regulations, with Newmark joining Page and others in support of "net neutrality" rules.

Huh? How is holding a gun to the heads of networks and coercing them into adopting your geek preferences in any way libertarian? Net neutrality is price controls, pure and simple. They're demanding that one byte of pipe-clogging streaming video be priced identically to one byte is plain text email. Or charging the same bridge toll for eighteen wheeler as for a bicycle.

I remember when libertarians used to talk about auctioning off the airwaves, now they're using airwaves as an excuse to regulate.

squarooticus|12.12.08 @ 1:02PM|#

How is holding a gun to the heads of networks and coercing them into adopting your geek preferences in any way libertarian? Net neutrality is price controls, pure and simple.

QFT.

Um|12.12.08 @ 1:07PM|#

Um. Brandybuck doesn't understand what a byte is.

"That's like charging the same for a 10-ton rig as a 10-ton bicycle to cross a bridge."

I suppose so.

Where did you get the 10-ton bicycle from?

And who pays by the byte downloaded? Isn't everyone on monthly plans now? Not relevant to net neutrality, amigo.

ed|12.12.08 @ 1:12PM|#

Newmark: "The market has failed to provide good health care for people."

What? Free enterprise has not failed anyone who can afford to see a doctor. Perhaps he meant to say that a mixed economy has failed to provide rationed, means-tested, politicized health care for all the people, regardless of their ability to pay? I suppose that is what is meant by "[T]heir [libertarian] politics...always with multiple caveats."

Smitty|12.12.08 @ 1:54PM|#

Newmark is as much a libertarian as W is a conservative.

ed|12.12.08 @ 1:58PM|#

Or Nancy Pelosi is a human.

T|12.12.08 @ 2:16PM|#

Or Nancy Pelosi is a human.

Look, botox and plastic surgery don't disqualify you until the combined total of the two exceeds half your body weight.

Pepe|12.12.08 @ 2:26PM|#

"If you're an American urbanite under the age of 30, Craig Newmark has probably helped you or someone you know get a job, get a sofa, or get laid."

Under 30? It's been around for 13 years.

Egosumabbas|12.12.08 @ 2:58PM|#

As far as advancing the cause of market anarchy (c.f. agorism), I have Craig Newmark to thank for helping in that regard.

When it comes to libertarian philosophy he's near a dud (as people have already pointed out). At most he's a market-friendly liberal.

|12.12.08 @ 6:05PM|#

"The market has failed to provide good health care for people"

Perhaps he meant "the highly regulated market (that remains despite 50% of health care dollars being paid by government)".

Regulations help to tie health insurance to your employer, make insurance more expensive because of legal coverage requirements, HIPAA, not to mention the tremendous amount of regulation on drugs and medical devices. And the trillion dollars a year subsidized by the government pushes private costs up as well...

Bob|12.12.08 @ 7:53PM|#

Hey, Mr. Newmark, want to see what Ralph Fucetola's doing these days? http://lifespirit.org (name changed from Libertarian Congregational Church when IRS objected that "Libertarian" was the name of a political party) and http://vitaminlawyer.com .

Ralph Fucetola JD|12.12.08 @ 10:28PM|#

Newmark said, "...connected with a guy named Ralph Fucetola. I don't know what's happened to him..."

As my my friend Bob noted above, I'm still here... and still making trouble when I can... and missing those extraordinary discussions in Muarry Rothbard's book-lined living room in NYC... Nice to know that some of the participants went on to such interesting things!

In addition to the web pages Bob posted, I'm also maintaining a blog at:
http://vitaminlawyerhealthfreedom.blogspot.com

And I work with my co-trustees Gen. Bert Stubblebine and Dr. Rima Laibow through Natural Solutions Foundation: www.globalhealthfreedom.org

JGR|12.15.08 @ 12:07AM|#

I use Craigslist all the time (actually, I use Crazedlist, which polls a number of different Craigslist sites on shared searches), but I can't consider it to be in the least "libertarian" when there is an absolute prohibition on listing guns, gun parts, etc.