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Other Victorians
Bristol Palin is pregnant. Who's intolerant now?
When the 17-year-old daughter of a Republican vice presidential candidate turns out to be pregnant and unwed, our culture-war stereotypes turn inside-out. In 2008, under the appropriate circumstances, a Christian conservative can be more tolerant of teen sex than a liberal Democrat.
"Life happens," said Steve Schmidt, a spokesman for Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), when Bristol Palin's condition was revealed. "We appreciate the fact that the Palins addressed the issue in a straightforward manner and that they are providing loving support to the teenager and her boyfriend," commented the Concerned Women for America. "Being a Christian does not mean you’re perfect," added James Dobson. "Nor does it mean your children are perfect. But it does mean there is forgiveness and restoration when we confess our imperfections to the Lord."
Some on the left have taken the same approach. Most significantly, Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) asked his supporters to "back off" from criticizing the Palin family, pointing out that his own mother had been 18 when he was born. But others have plunged gleefully into the so-called scandal. Where conservatives called for tolerance and understanding, the libs said, Where was the girl's mom?
The high-minded approach to this was to bring up the pregnancy in tandem with Gov. Sarah Palin's support for abstinence-only sex ed, thus seeming to reduce the issue to a matter of public policy. The Stranger's Dan Savage, for example, wrote this on Monday:
Yes, ordinary American families face this situation all the time. Fewer would face this situation, however, if we had comprehensive sex education in the United States, and teenagers had access to accurate information about birth control methods and contraceptives were made easily available.
It should be obvious, but apparently isn't, that virtually no one following this story has any idea what Bristol Palin and her boyfriend knew about contraception, nor whether they didn't use birth control at all, used it improperly, or used it properly but it failed. If they didn't use any birth control, we do not know why they made that decision. We do not know whether Sarah Palin (who may oppose teaching about birth control in the government's schools, but is not opposed to contraception) talked with her daughter about birth control; nor do we know what, if anything, Palin's boyfriend's parents imparted to him. We do not even know how Bristol Palin feels about "this situation." In short, we don't have the slightest idea whether comprehensive sex education would have changed the Palin family's lives one iota. I'm no fonder of abstinence education than I am of any other form of social engineering, but the efforts to turn the Palin pregnancy into a school-policy anecdote are absurd.
But at least Savage paid respect to Bristol's autonomy. ("It’s great that Bristol is choosing to keep this baby. As the adoptive parent of a child born to a pair of unwed teenagers, I’m certainly not in favor of abortion in all circumstances.") Move away from the pundits and into the ordinary conversations of Palin's ordinary opponents, and the talk gets uglier.
"Way to go," writes one Boston Globe reader. "Great example for all young girls. Get pregnant at 17." Another adds: "She cant even control her own daughter in her home, and she wants to run the country!! no way!!" At mixx.com: "if Gov. Palin can't control what happens underneath her own house roof and how would she be able 2 run the White House." At Fox News: "if she cant control her daughter AND bring her up proper, she has no business as a Vice President." A blogger called the Homosecular Gaytheist, a handle that might suggest a certain social tolerance, instead calls Bristol "the slutty alcoholic daughter of Sarah Palin" and asks, again, "How will Sarah Palin fare in running the entire country after the inevitable death of John McCain if she can’t even run her own family?" Control, control, control. Foucault would have a field day.
And no, I'm not just cherry-picking obnoxious blog comments. I'm repeating the ones that resemble arguments I've heard out here in the real world, talking to neighbors and eavesdropping in cafés. (Well, not the "slutty alcoholic" bit. That one may be sui generis.) Some of this may just be partisanship gone wild, just as some of the Republican defenses of Bristol Palin would melt away if she were an Obama. But these aren't just hardcore Blue Team cheerleaders talking. They're normal Americans working themselves into high dudgeon because Sarah Palin was an insufficient Sex Cop. It's the same burst of puritanism that greeted the pregnancy of Jamie Lynn Spears. But it's a peculiar sort of puritanism, because it's aimed at young women who plan to keep their babies. Apparently, not everyone approves of the Juno narrative.
It's easy to accuse Palin's Christian defenders of fair-weather tolerance, to suggest that they wouldn't be so sanguine if Bristol, say, decided to raise her child without a father. It's easy and, in many prominent cases, it's probably right. But that isn't the only fair-weather tolerance on display.
Jesse Walker is reason's managing editor.
guy in the back row|9.3.08 @ 5:58PM|#
How set is Levi Johnson? I bet he's named ambassador to Canada or Secretary of the Interior or something equally good if McCain wins.
Bingo|9.3.08 @ 5:59PM|#
Hey guys, here's an well-researched article about the issues and
substantial policies of the candidates
*clicks link*
"Never gonna give you up,
never gonna let you down,
never gonna turn around and desert you"
Bristolled again! *shakes fist*
|9.3.08 @ 6:05PM|#
I love how the word control and government are used together by
people talking about this issue.
At least they are not hiding what they really want from a Prez and
VP. Someone who is good at controlling the lives of others.
#!&*!!%$|9.3.08 @ 6:06PM|#
a Christian conservative can be more tolerant of teen sex
than a liberal Democrat.
I'm beginning to see almost everyone else is more tolerant of
almost anything than a liberal DemocRAT.
They are like Communist Secular Taliban.
Elemenope|9.3.08 @ 6:11PM|#
Wow, way to lose perspective. Only one of the two groups (hint,
not the one that ends in RAT) wants to control whether you can be
pregnant or not. Only one of the two groups would like to
criminalize reproductive freedom. Only one of the two groups
routinely and repeatedly shames teenage mothers from the pulpit and
from the podium.
The stereotypes haven't been "turned inside out". They've just been
clogged out by the rotten smoke of hypocrisy.
|9.3.08 @ 6:11PM|#
"A Boston Globe reader," "Another one," a commenter at
"mixx.com" and a blogger nobody has heard of.
No, you're not cherrypicking. After all, you've heard, you know,
people. Saying stuff.
How precisely equivalent to James Dobson, officials from the McCain
campaign and Concerned Women for America.
You quote precisely two people - Dan Savage and Barack Obama - who
could be described as the liberal analogues of the conservatives
you quoted, and neither of them said anything similar to the
position you're attributing to "the left" broadly.
Great work there, Jesse. Blog comments? Really?
Elemenope|9.3.08 @ 6:12PM|#
Bristol Palin is the new RickRoll.
I got fucking rickrolled by Andrew Sullivan yesterday.
I was pissed. :-/
SIV|9.3.08 @ 6:14PM|#
The high-minded non sequitur approach to this
was to bring up the pregnancy in tandem with Gov. Sarah Palin's
support for abstinence-only sex ed
Jennifer|9.3.08 @ 6:15PM|#
You don't have to be "secular Taliban" to think that becoming a
wife-n-mommy before you're even a high school graduate is generally
a bad idea. Bristol Palin is still in the "party hearty" phase of
life where she hangs out with her friends and posts photographs of
herself proudly undergoing teen rites of passage like violating the
bullshit drinking-age laws. Which is fine; at her age she SHOULD
still be having fun with this newfound "almost-adulthood"
thing.
But if you're still at the party-hearty phase of life, you're too
young to saddle yourself with the responsibility of being a mom.
I'm sure she'll have more financial support than most 17-year-old
moms, but she's still going to be cleaning spit-up and soothing a
crying infant while her friends are out having ordinary teenage
fun. And I think that's damned sad. If abortion violates her
beliefs that's fine, but I still think it's too bad she won't be
giving the baby up for adoption. A person who might make a great
mother at 27 won't necessarily make one at 17.
|9.3.08 @ 6:17PM|#
Y'know, I've been a registered Independent for a while. Voted
for Slick Willie twice, and still don't regret it. Voted for W
twice only because the Democratic party managed to nominate not
one, but two men who make me throw up a little in my mouth every
time I see them. Would willingly and thoughtfully have considered
voting for Hillary, especially if the Republicans had nominated
Mitt.
I'm pro-choice, pro-gun, pro-gay, pro-legal drugs - I'm no social
conservative, ok?
But I have to say - I've never been so disgusted with the media as
I am right now, and I have never been so convinced that a large
majority - a very large majority - of the left side of the
blogosphere lives in a sewer.
A media that has shed all pretense of neutrality and is actively
manipulating, distorting and altering the news in order to swing
the election to one candidate - that's fucking dangerous. It's not
the politicians and blog denizens piling on Palin that disturb me
nearly so much as the so called "respectable" media. Glenn Reynolds
is right - if the McCain camp had just said that John Edwards is
Bristol Palin's baby daddy, we wouldn't have heard another
goddamned word about it.
The major networks and newspapers have reprinted every vile piece
of shit rumor or masterbatory fantasy coughed up by the cesspool
blogs. Even Andrew Sullivan - whom I don't consider a journalist
but whom I also did not, until recently, consider completely
fucking insane - is saying that it's "not unreasonable" for Sarah
Palin to provide prove that she is her own baby's mother.
WTF???
You've got the Neanderthals at DU saying that destroying one
teenage girl's life is worth it if it gets Obama elected. You've
got that crazed bitch in Philadelphia flatly stating that if Obama
loses we will have a full out race war.
Fuck all of them. I completely disagree with all of Palin's social
views. I'm a RINO, for God's sake. It's gonna be a really, really,
really long goddamned time before I vote for a Democrat again. I
want McCain to win because there is a miniscule, but nonetheless
real, chance that if he does the Democratic party might be retaken
by adults who flush the crazies back down the toilet that coughed
them up.
And yes, I know Republicans play dirty too. But not that dirty. And
if Sarah Palin were a man, I wouldn't be so fucking pissed off. But
if Sarah Palin were a man, the media wouldn't be doing this to her.
So fuck them.
Dagny T.|9.3.08 @ 6:22PM|#
Foucault would have a field day.
Glad I'm not the only one who delights in Foucauldian ironies.
Discipline and punish, y'all. Delinquencies are tricky things to
manage.
zoltan|9.3.08 @ 6:29PM|#
People are surprised at the latent sexism of everyday Americans?
I'm shocked.
The media is jumping on the most salacious story about the newest
entry to the presidential race? I'm shocked.
People who say they stand for one thing are actually doing another
thing? I'm totally shocked.
Is someone really crying about media treatment these days? The
media are salivating dogs who will chew up any story they can find,
especially when they get to pull down the moral humdinger. Just
wait a couple years when some lefty screw-up does something
proportional. The media will have a field day again. And
someone will be whining about it again. It's like people
never learn.
Jennifer|9.3.08 @ 6:30PM|#
I want McCain to win because there is a miniscule, but
nonetheless real, chance that if he does the Democratic party might
be retaken by adults who flush the crazies back down the toilet
that coughed them up.
How irnoic; I have a mirror attitude. I want Obama to win because
there is a miniscule, but nonetheless real, chance that if he does
the Republican party might be retaken by adults who flush the
crazies back down the toilet that coughed them up.
Now if y'all will excuse me, me and my modern Republican friends
must go fight terrorism and crumbling infrastructure and the bad
economy and other serious threats to America by pushing for the
passage of Constitutional amendments banning flag-burning and
fabulous gay weddings. Priorities, people.
Tacos mmm...|9.3.08 @ 6:31PM|#
Why, again, is it a surprise that group identification is more
important to most people than princicple?
Odds are the same people that think criticizing Bristol is beyond
the pale were making barking noises whenever they saw Chelsea
Clinton on television ten years ago.
Elemenope|9.3.08 @ 6:35PM|#
Odds are the same people that think criticizing Bristol is
beyond the pale were making barking noises whenever they saw
Chelsea Clinton on television ten years ago.
No shit. One of those people was John McCain. Did he not
tell some joke about how Chelsea is ugly because Janet Reno is her
father?
Very honorable, very classy.
|9.3.08 @ 6:35PM|#
Sarah Palin was chosen as VP specifically because her "personal
story" would make for good TV.
Be careful what you wish for.
|9.3.08 @ 6:35PM|#
I am reposting this article because unfortunately a teenager's
pregnancy is in the news. It is shocking that Obama's campaign
would attack a teenager with vicious unfounded rumors that claim
Gov. Palin faked her pregnancy with her 5th child to cover for
Bristol Palin. So it looks like Abortion is in the news; and
therefore, I am revisiting Sen. Obama's position. The media has
been covering these attacks against Gov. Palin's teenage daughter
and continues to hide the negative news about Obama. Please
consider:
http://zachjonesishome.wordpress.com/2008/09/02/obama-would-evidently-throw-the-baby-out-with-the-bathwater/
fyodor|9.3.08 @ 6:36PM|#
But these aren't just hardcore Blue Team cheerleaders
talking. They're normal Americans
I don't get it Jesse. Are you suggesting "normal Americans" are not
partisan? I'd say ordinary Americans are every bit as partisan as
the folks who get paid to be. And to whatever degree liberals are
being hypocritical about the propriety of teenage sex, that's what
it's about. Hardly "man bites dog."
And are they being hypocritical? I never thought most middle class
liberals were totally down with teenage sex, I just thought they
thought high schoolers should be taught about birth control and STD
prevention because "they're going to do it anyway." Most of the
potshots you quoted (aside from the crab who called her a slut)
didn't express "intolerance" towards teenage copulation as much as
they were just mindless and convenient partisan barbs at a
conservative who would theoretically "control" her kid but
apparently didn't. A little sad and ridiculous (yes, as the Blues
should know), but hardly neo-Victorian.
SIV|9.3.08 @ 6:36PM|#
she's still going to be cleaning spit-up and soothing a
crying infant while her friends are out having ordinary
teenage fun wishing they had a husband and a
baby.
Maybe it is different in CT.
|9.3.08 @ 6:36PM|#
Stubby...Well Said!
It is getting old, real fast! And when the right blog-o-sphere
started diggin' up dirt on Jeremiah Wright, Ayers, Flag Pins,
during the primary and Charlie Gibson made Obama answer questions
at the debate the Left Blog-o-Sphere was up in a big wha-wha over
it! But now, when it fits their bill they shred a 17 yr old, and a
mom over their personal lives. Leave them be people. They pleaded
for the same when Clinton was getting BJs in the oval office, and
now you live a double standard. You can't have your cake and eat it
too! You want privacy for politician's personal lives, then lay
this none story to rest!
shecky|9.3.08 @ 6:38PM|#
C'mon, folks. In what world is the unwed 17 year old daughter of an abstinence-only endorsing socially conservative vice presidential candidate not a story? Of course it's salacious talk. It sure as well would be if it were Obama's daughter. The most remarkable thing is that it isn't quite as big an issue to liberals as some here seem to think it is. What is an issue is McCain's seemingly flawed choice, with all the flaws coming out in what appears to be an uncontrolled fashion. This seems to be the overwhleming issue among liberals regarding Palin.
|9.3.08 @ 6:39PM|#
"Way to go," writes one Boston Globe reader. "Great example
for all young girls. Get pregnant at 17."
You mean like the unmarried 17-year-old Stanley Ann Dunham, who got
knocked up by Barack Obama, Sr. (whom she married before the birth
of her child, even though Barack Sr. happened to be married to a
wife back in Kenya)?
|9.3.08 @ 6:41PM|#
Y'see, Jennifer, there is exactly zero probability that McCain
is going to push for either of those two things if he gets elected.
I don't know if he's mentioned anything about it - but he won't.
Flag burning and gay marriage is a dog whistle issue, just like
abortion is.
The second amendment issue has been, hopefully, settled, just like
the abortion issue has been. The Supremes don't like going back and
admitting that they got something wrong and they are terrified of
what might happen if they ever reviewed Roe. Guns and abortion are
legal, flag burning is not threatened and never will be in any real
sense, and gay marriage is a state matter.
It was Clinton who signed DOMA, and Bush never did anything
regarding gay marriage. But you knew that.
Just like Obama may have made noises about being pro-gay marriage.
Who knows, he may have said he'll support gay rights. If he gets
elected he won't touch the issue. I doubt that he'd even do as much
as Clinton did vis a vis DADT, which is way less than he had
promised to do.
Red meat for the base, to be forgotten as soon as he's in the round
room.
The media never subjected Hillary or Chelsea to this kind of
treatment. Well, they did it to Hillary after she had the gall to
challenge Obama, but before that, never.
Bingo|9.3.08 @ 6:41PM|#
Odds are the same people that think criticizing Bristol is beyond the pale were making barking noises whenever they saw Chelsea Clinton on television ten years ago.
No, fuck this, stop assuming these things and this bullshit has to
end.
The Rev. Wright thing, the "fake" birth certificate, Dick Cheney's
lesbian daughter, Bush's partying kids, how many cars someone owns,
war records from 30 years ago, the size of their carbon footprint.
WHO CARES???
It's a bunch of stupid inane bullshit and has absolutely nothing to
do with how a candidate's policies are going to affect my life and
my livelihood and my freedoms. It needs to fucking end.
Jennifer|9.3.08 @ 6:44PM|#
Maybe it is different in CT.
No, the same holds true throughout the entire country and the
entire world: "If you're still in your 'party-hearty' phase of
life, you're too young to be saddled with the responsibilities of
motherhood."
Eric Haskell|9.3.08 @ 6:44PM|#
I love the fact that the discussion on this page has matched us up with an ad for a free due date calculator.
zoltan|9.3.08 @ 6:46PM|#
I agree with Bingo.
"Way to go," writes one Boston Globe reader. "Great example for
all young girls. Get pregnant at 17."
You mean like the unmarried 17-year-old Stanley Ann Dunham, who got
knocked up by Barack Obama, Sr. (whom she married before the birth
of her child, even though Barack Sr. happened to be married to a
wife back in Kenya)?
You see? This is a good thing for Bristol. 17-year-olds give birth
to PRESIDENTS. Hell, my mom was 18 when she had me
and I ain't too bad off either. Not that I'm endorsing teen
pregnancy.
SIV|9.3.08 @ 6:46PM|#
Be nice if the backlash makes the Wellstone funeral look like a brilliant Dem PR move in comparison.
shecky|9.3.08 @ 6:47PM|#
It's a bunch of stupid inane bullshit and has absolutely nothing to
do with how a candidate's policies are going to affect my life and
my livelihood and my freedoms. It needs to fucking end.
Why? This stuff is the best part of election time!
|9.3.08 @ 6:48PM|#
I think the left is screwing up in the way it's attacking Palin.
She's got some of that scary religious right aura about her, which
could be safely attacked. Instead, many are going after her for her
inexperience, which is very dangerous ground indeed, and for stuff
like this, which is more likely to engender sympathy (à la the 90s'
view of HRC).
One real serious misstep that Obama will probably get away with due
to our collective short-term memory was saying that running a
campaign for the presidency constituted more executive experience
than being a governor. That's so stupid that I did an actual
double-take. Even for a "small" state like Alaska, that's
incredibly untrue. Besides, I question how much Obama or any other
relatively inexperienced candidate really calls all of his campaign
shots.
zoltan|9.3.08 @ 6:48PM|#
No, the same holds true throughout the entire country and
the entire world: "If you're still in your 'party-hearty' phase of
life, you're too young to be saddled with the responsibilities of
motherhood."
I have to disagree with this. What about people who want to be a
mother or father at a young age? I attribute the infantilization of
teenagers to why we don't think they could possibly be ready at
that age. Though I don't think anymore than 1% might even want to
do such a thing. As for the CT girls, wanting to have children
because they watched a movie doesn't constitute "responsibly
wanting a child". Then again, many adults with accidental
pregnancies hardly fare better.
|9.3.08 @ 6:49PM|#
the issue is that the right has routinely blamed teen pregnancy
on permissive, secular, liberalism and offered traditional family,
religious values as the antidote.
ooops.
BTS|9.3.08 @ 6:53PM|#
"You mean like the unmarried 17-year-old Stanley Ann Dunham, who
got knocked up by Barack Obama, Sr."
Do you expect Obama to be a time-traveler and go back and exert
some sort of reverse parental pressure on his mother? I think the
entire point of the people who AREN'T ad hominem "her daughter's a
slut" attackers was that Sarah Palin could be expected to have some
responsibility for her minor daughter's actions.
You can't say that Obama is supposed to have some responsibility
for his minor mother's actions.
Jennifer|9.3.08 @ 6:53PM|#
I have to disagree with this. What about people who want to
be a mother or father at a young age?
They're probably not the same people posing for photos showing
themselves and their friends proudly imbibing large quantities of
alcohol. (And for the kid's sake, I devoutly hope those photos were
taken BEFORE Bristol caught pregnant.)
It's not the numerical age that matters; it's what sort of things
the person considers "fun." If you're 17 years old and your idea of
a good time is babysitting the neighbors' kids, maybe you
are emotionally ready to become a mom. But if your idea of
a good time still involves all-night drinking games, you should
probably hold off on acquiring "motherhood" status just yet.
|9.3.08 @ 6:56PM|#
SIV, you will and forever be known as the guy who said that 17-year-old girls are jealous of their pregnant friends.
|9.3.08 @ 6:59PM|#
In an earlier thread, we determined that McCain is probably the
father.
I'm voting Barr, 'cause I have no other option, but I have to say
that McCain rises slightly in my estimation for not running scared
from this or from the investigation currently underway. Neither
looks like a major failing on Palin's part, and having trouble with
your kids is an All-American experience. Only slightly, mind you.
The man is insane. Which is maybe why he overlooked what most
politicians would not have. Maybe my opinion hasn't changed.
|9.3.08 @ 7:00PM|#
And are they being hypocritical? I never thought most middle
class liberals were totally down with teenage sex, I just thought
they thought high schoolers should be taught about birth control
and STD prevention because "they're going to do it
anyway."
fyodor,
The conservative definition of hypocrisy is "the failure of a
liberal to live by standards he's never advocated, but which were
assigned to him by his political opponents."
Did you know that Al Gore lives in a house? Sure he's spent a great
deal of his own money to retrofit it, but it most certainly is not
an unlit mud hut. Hypocrite.
shecky|9.3.08 @ 7:01PM|#
Once again, get real, folks. We were bound to get a Jerry Springer moment from this election cycle. It could just as easily have been from the Obama camp. It may still be. But it came from McCain's. Don't blame liberals for the past or present fuckups of our Presidential candidates.
SIV|9.3.08 @ 7:03PM|#
Jennifer,
So Bristol should give up her baby for adoption so she can spend 10
more years getting drunk, high and laid?
If she follows her mother she is going to marry the HS sweetheart
anyways.They can still have some fun but in a more restrained and
responsible way.A lot of youthful wild stuff is just courtship
behavior anyways. She just grabbed the brass ring before the
carousel made a full revolution.
|9.3.08 @ 7:05PM|#
It is fair and rational to object to Palin's sex education
policies, especially considering what happened in her family. I
think she's wrong about abstinence only education, although from
what I've read, no studies have proven that comprehensive sex ed is
any better at keeping teenage girls' legs closed than AO education
is. It's a valid point and it's a needed discussion. That's not
what I'm talking about.
I'm talking about the other 90% of the shit being flung - about who
really birthed the fifth baby, about how long she waited before
flying home to give birth, about how she's "abandoning" her family
to run for VP, the redneck shit, the refusal to call her Governor
Palin and instead keep talking about her like she's still a small
town mayor, the shit about how running a Presidential campaign is
more qualifying than having served as a mayor and a governor
because Libertate is right - that is some whacked out bullshit; the
fact that no one talked about Tim Kane's length of time in the
Governor's office when he was being discussed as a possible BO
running mate; and I say again the whole redneck shit, the whole
"Alaska is cold and full of scary looking animals and people carry
guns and you can't find a decent restaurant or (shudder) even a
taxi anywhere" and how all of a sudden her former pastor might have
views that people object to and isn't that entirely fair? Isn't it?
Don't we care what people are listening to in church? Don't we care
about twenty year old DUIs? Don't we care if someone's husband
might have belonged to a non-mainstream political party once?
Because of course all that shit is applicable all of a sudden, you
know....
I have to quit now and go to a parents night for my first grader,
whom I birthed at 38 but sometimes wish I had popped out at 17
because I had a lot more energy back then, but I didn't have nearly
as much fun as 17 year olds today and could not, in fact, have
popped out a baby because I was one of only four or five girls in
the whole school who didn't "put out". Remember when it was called
putting out? Hell, I went on dates in college - that's how fucking
old I am....
|9.3.08 @ 7:05PM|#
Speaking of Gore, has anyone ever measured the total
environmental impact of individuals from various countries and from
various wealth demographics in those countries? It seems like a
metric someone would have come up with.
I'm sure we'll see bizarro world hypocrisy from both parties in
spades before it's all through. Sometimes, I can't remember which
party is which, especially when I think back a decade or more.
SIV|9.3.08 @ 7:06PM|#
SIV, you will and forever be known as the guy who said that
17-year-old girls are jealous of their pregnant friends.
They aren't in Mass? Or is that only in Gloucester?
(must...not..make...sexist...reference..to ... cock trappers)
Fluffy|9.3.08 @ 7:07PM|#
The high-minded non sequitur approach to this was to bring
up the pregnancy in tandem with Gov. Sarah Palin's support for
abstinence-only sex ed
the issue is that the right has routinely blamed teen pregnancy
on permissive, secular, liberalism and offered traditional family,
religious values as the antidote.
ooops.
Gotta say that spoodge demon is making much more sense than SIV
here.
Christian conservatives rely on the narrative that America's values
have decayed because we no longer bow with sufficient rigor to the
Flying Spaghetti Monster, and that the superior bowing ability of
Christian conservatives means that they can be trusted to set
things right.
Anecdotes like this one help to demonstrate that they are
deluded.
Apparently these Christians believe that it's OK to get knocked up
at 17, as long as you "ask for forgiveness" and loudly denounce as
evil everyone else who gets knocked up at 17, or at least
the ones who didn't get knocked up on top of the altar at
church.
Elemenope|9.3.08 @ 7:07PM|#
A lot of youthful wild stuff is just courtship behavior
anyways.
You must've had some pretty fucking WEIRD "youthful wild stuff".
When I was a kid we did that shit, um, *because it was fun*.
Jennifer|9.3.08 @ 7:08PM|#
So Bristol should give up her baby for adoption so she can
spend 10 more years getting drunk, high and laid?
No; she should hold off on being a mommy until she outgrows the
attitude that getting drunk and high is the awesomest possible good
time.
zoltan|9.3.08 @ 7:10PM|#
I agree with that, Jennifer.
Also, for the people who are criticizing Palin for her teenage
daughter's actions: this girl is how many months away from being an
adult in the legal sense of the word? I wonder how much of an
uproar this would have been had she been of age.
I also very much agree with spooge demon as well. These people say
that teenage pregnancy is the result of "liberal" "secular" values?
Why are all those family values religious right-nutters espouses
all huge problems in the states that are up to the brim with
churchy people?
|9.3.08 @ 7:10PM|#
I don't think I entirely agree with Jennifer, but her point does remind me of the local case of the woman who likely killed her daughter because she cramped her partying style.
fyodor|9.3.08 @ 7:11PM|#
The conservative definition of hypocrisy is "the failure of
a liberal to live by standards he's never advocated, but which were
assigned to him by his political opponents."
LOL, joe. Well for the record I think it swings both ways, and
liberals should know better than to think parents should be held
responsible for their kids having sex. But knowing better always
plays second fiddle to normal, everyday partisanship.
|9.3.08 @ 7:16PM|#
But one last thing.
Joe - you cannot seriously hold up Al Gore as an example of
unreasonable rightwing accusations of hypocrisy? Could you? Even
you couldn't do that? Even you can see that Al Gore's behavior and
consumer habits - in his homes, in his vehicles, and in his travels
- do not comport with his stated beliefs. More importantly, they do
not comport with how he would like to force others - i.e., people
with less money and power than him - to live. It is the fact that
Al Gore is a walking caricature of the Learjet liberal that
Republicans object to.
It is not hypocrisy when you fail to live up to your own standards
- that's just human nature. It is hypocrisy when you castigate
and/or attempt to punish people who do, or fail to do, what you do
or fail to do yourself.
Sarah Palin pushes AO education and her 17 year old daughter gets
pregnant. That's not hypocrisy. If Palin had helped Bristol get an
abortion - that's hypocrisy, because Palin would like to see other
girls not have that option.
Al Gore is a hypocrite because his carbon footprint is bigger than
the state I live in and yet he would gladly force me to live in the
aforementioned unlit goddamned mud hut.
It's okay, Joe. Call me a child and tell me to fuck off or do your
"Begone with you, sirrah!" schtick. Honestly, it's kind of cute on
you.
♪|9.3.08 @ 7:17PM|#
Elemenope
Wow, way to lose perspective. Only one of the two groups (hint, not the one that ends in RAT) wants to control whether you can be pregnant or not.
Double wow! Republicans do a lot of stuff, but I've never heard of
them telling people when the can and cannot get pregnant.
|9.3.08 @ 7:18PM|#
Thank got Herr McCain picked Palin instead of Romney. Imagine
how fucking bored we'd all be right now. And there will always be
plenty of hypocrisy on both sides.....
.......But still.... I hate Republicans, but I really fucking hate
Democrats. At least you don't have to listen to Republican prattle
on with their snobby fucking self righteousness about how fucking
tolerant they are. Then turn on a 17 year old with such vicious
alacrity. Fuck I hate Democrats.
shecky|9.3.08 @ 7:19PM|#
And c'mon, Jesse. Your outrage is about as appropriate as the
outrage one might feel over Reason, because Lonewacko
posts about IllegalImmigration, or shecky posts about the amusement
to be had over Palin's family.
Stubby, you're being awfully selective. 90% of the shit I
see flung is actually pretty valid shit. Most of which makes Palin
seem like a generic social conservative big government Republican.
But makes McCain seem like a cynical reckless hack for choosing
her.
Bingo|9.3.08 @ 7:20PM|#
Well, its gotten stupider every single election since about 1996 or so and the trend shows no sign of stopping. 2012 should be a hoot.
shecky|9.3.08 @ 7:21PM|#
Double wow! Republicans do a lot of stuff, but I've never
heard of them telling people when the can and cannot get
pregnant.
You haven't really been listening too long, have you?
|9.3.08 @ 7:21PM|#
Actually, about 90% of the talk I have seen about Bristol's
pregnancy from Left or Right has been demands that we not talk
about it.
Other than that, I have been delighted to see Christian
reactionaries become so liberal about the sexual behavior of
teenagers. Although I did see one grump denounce it as an effect of
the Sixties. The hippies did it!
Elemenope|9.3.08 @ 7:22PM|#
♪ --
They tell people that become pregnant when they can and cannot
become un-Pregnant. Any sort of state control over this
shit pisses me off.
And, yes, the whack-nut Christianist wing of the GOP would be more
than happy to regulate when you can and cannot legally have sex,
and with whom. It's been done before, in this country, and not that
fucking long ago at that.
B|9.3.08 @ 7:25PM|#
"Sarah Palin was chosen as VP specifically because her "personal
story" would make for good TV.'
And I guess you know this joe because you are a campaign insider.
Please, quit fucking pretending you have a clue.
Paul|9.3.08 @ 7:26PM|#
Liberal Democrats are more tolerant of other people's teen sex.
Their own teenagers? Not so much.
Kind of like that "Sex Worker" advocate who found out her daughter
was a stripper. She weren't none too happy.
|9.3.08 @ 7:27PM|#
Is someone really crying about media treatment these days?
The media are salivating dogs who will chew up any story they can
find, especially when they get to pull down the moral humdinger.
Just wait a couple years when some lefty screw-up does something
proportional. The media will have a field day again. And someone
will be whining about it again. It's like people never
learn.
Sexism? Liberal media bias? I dunno.
But I am curious how this story about a politicians close
relative's sexual behavior played in your town.
[US Senator]
Stabenow's Husband in Prostitution Bust
It didn't get a lot of play here.
|9.3.08 @ 7:28PM|#
This campaign: stupid election, or stupidest
election
I am stealing from an earlier thread but we will have to use the
following notation to represent the quantum of stupid in this
election:
to wit, stupider^n.
|9.3.08 @ 7:29PM|#
Apparently these Christians believe that it's OK to get
knocked up at 17, as long as you "ask for forgiveness" and loudly
denounce as evil everyone else who gets knocked up at 17, or at
least the ones who didn't get knocked up on top of the altar at
church.
I would consider this way over the top, were it not for SIV. Nope,
I didn't misunderstand him.
fyodor,
Well for the record I think it swings both ways, and liberals
should know better than to think parents should be held responsible
for their kids having sex. I would disagree with that, too, if
I saw any liberals saying that. I agree with what I have seen
liberals say, which is that the Palin family's situations blows the
moralist, Christianist, anti-sex ed,
liberal-values-are-destroying-the-family horse shit right out the
window.
stubby, if you think Al Gore's argument is that you should live in
a mud hut, you are deluded partisan moron.
Eight note, Republicans do a lot of stuff, but I've never heard
of them telling people when the can and cannot get pregnant.
I've heard them spend an awful lot of time telling people when they
can and cannot have sex (some say this is related to pregnancy, I
hear), and I've heard them spend an awful lot of time telling
people when they can and cannot cease being pregnant.
|9.3.08 @ 7:30PM|#
B, I'll put my campaign analysis up against yours any time you'd
like. I've got my record, I haven't been shy about expressing my
thoughts, and I think I've done pretty well.
So, how's that mid-August Zogby poll you kept going on about
working for you?
zoltan|9.3.08 @ 7:31PM|#
J Sub D:
Why can't a girl or guy just make a decent living in this
country?
Elemenope|9.3.08 @ 7:33PM|#
I am stealing from an earlier thread but we will have to use
the following notation to represent the quantum of stupid in this
election...
Someone needs to do up a Feynman Diagram of the 'stupid force'
interactions that undergird quantum idiodynamics.
|9.3.08 @ 7:36PM|#
Why can't a girl or guy just make a decent living in this
country?
Alycia Lorraine Martin was trying to. She obviosly wasn't doing as
well as Spitzer's courtesan.
|9.3.08 @ 7:37PM|#
to wit, stupider^n
Actually, you are stealing from me (I posted that equation) to
respond to me. Do we implode now?
I do some crunches, I refresh, and there's 10+ more posts. WHY IS
THIS SHIT SO IMPORTANT TO SO MANY?
liberty|9.3.08 @ 7:37PM|#
The media tried to tie Ron Paul to some racist congressional candidate. They'll do anything to destroy a candidate.
SIV|9.3.08 @ 7:38PM|#
Elemonope,
We are both guys, I think.We don't see the partying as courtship
behavior.
I've known women who started planning their weddings in
kindergarten.The reason many don't get married at 18 is because
they keep thinking they will do better if they wait. They are
usually right about that hence our much later marrying age.
|9.3.08 @ 7:39PM|#
Even you can see that Al Gore's behavior and consumer habits
- in his homes, in his vehicles, and in his travels - do not
comport with his stated beliefs.
No kidding. When I see Al Gore's fat ass riding a bicycle from
place to place, I will then actually believe he gives a fuck about
the environment. And what is the deal with his head? It just keeps
getting bigger and fatter every time I see him. It is like he and
Ted Kennedy share the same head-the-size-of-a-small-planetoid
genes. His head alone consumes enough calories to feed three
Ethiopians.
Someone needs to do up a Feynman Diagram of the 'stupid force'
interactions that undergird quantum idiodynamics.
IMHO, this is the thread winner.
SIV|9.3.08 @ 7:40PM|#
liberty,
What is this 1997? There is a little black bar at the base of my
browser window and when I hover over links it tells me where they
go. I might of clicked on tubgirl for old times sake.
Dagny T.|9.3.08 @ 7:42PM|#
This campaign: stupid election, or stupidest
election?
Oh. My. God. This whole election season went Full Retard.
You never go Full Retard.
Jerry|9.3.08 @ 7:42PM|#
Here we are talking about who is the father of Bristol Palin's child, while I still haven't gotten a definitive answer to who is responsible for Rielle Hunter's one. One Jerry Springer story at a time please, I can't keep up!
|9.3.08 @ 7:43PM|#
If only we could set the Federal "getting pregnant" minimum age
at 21, none of this would be an issue!
And Jennifer makes a good argument for setting the drinking age at
somewhere around 10 ... if all kids could just get it out of their
system, they could be responsible voters by the time they turned
18!
stubby makes some good points, but preaching AO and not enforcing
it in your own family is also a definition of hypocrisy, and goes
agin' the "Do unto others..." dictum.
That said, I don't give a Democrat's ass about this non-issue in a
Presidential race.
B|9.3.08 @ 7:44PM|#
"Did you know that Al Gore lives in a house? Sure he's spent a
great deal of his own money to retrofit it, but it most certainly
is not an unlit mud hut"
You mean the house that uses more energy in a month than the entire
principality of Lichtenstein used in the 1970s? The house that was
recently reported to have used 10% more energy than before it was
"retrofitted"?Or perhaps we should discuss his yacht that burns
more oil than Saddam Hussein on his way out of Kuwait. Or perhaps
we could discuss his jet. I could go to google and find out how
much more fuel he burns taking a trip in that thing in comparison
to how much gas my car burns in a year, but I am too damn lazy. Al
Gore lecturing people on the dangers of climate change and
excessive energy consumption is about as ridiculous as Ward
Churchill castigating someone for plagiarism.
|9.3.08 @ 7:46PM|#
Oh. My. God. This whole election season went Full Retard.
You never go Full Retard.
Well, to be honest, it went Full Retard as soon as we found out
about Palin's son...
But your point still stands.
B|9.3.08 @ 7:49PM|#
"So, how's that mid-August Zogby poll you kept going on about
working for you"
You have me confused with someone else if you are bringing up Zogby
polls. The only thing I have ever said about Zogby is how
inaccurate he is.
"Sarah Palin was chosen as VP specifically because her "personal
story" would make for good TV."
Replace Sarah Palin with Barack Obama and VP with President and her
with his in the above quote and I think you would be right for the
first time in your life.
Dagny T.|9.3.08 @ 7:49PM|#
Well, to be honest, it went Full Retard as soon as we found
out about Palin's son...
What happened to taking the high road, I wonder? (Not a criticism,
though. That shit is funny.)
|9.3.08 @ 7:52PM|#
Oh. My. God. This whole election season went Full Retard. You never go Full Retard.
Well, to be honest, it went Full Retard as soon as we found out about Palin's son...
It went retard the instant Obama was accused of being a secret
Muslim. It went full retard with the Reverend Wright and birth
certificate stories.
Face it, we are now in turbo-retard.
Rhywun|9.3.08 @ 7:53PM|#
And yes, I know Republicans play dirty too. But not that dirty.
Hee hee... ha ha... thanks for that one.
|9.3.08 @ 7:56PM|#
WHY IS THIS SHIT SO IMPORTANT TO SO MANY?
Schadenfruede.
And what the hell is the deal with all these posts? Don't you
people have jobs?
Oooh! OOOh! OOOh! Another new Palin thread....See you all
later.
Dagny T.|9.3.08 @ 7:56PM|#
Face it, we are now in turbo-retard.
Hyper-Retard? Mega-Retard? Maxi-Retard?
I like the last, because of the connotations to ladyparts, which
have played such a big role in this election.
|9.3.08 @ 7:57PM|#
High road? Did I say something about a high road? I can't remember, I'm too retarded.
|9.3.08 @ 7:59PM|#
Hyper-Retard? Mega-Retard? Maxi-Retard?
Meta-retard. We are retarded about our own retardedness. Now
that's retarded, Kirk Lazarus.
Naga Sadow|9.3.08 @ 8:01PM|#
Your parents are probably wondering where you are.
Nah... I mean, I'm already pregnant, so what other kind of
shenanigans could I get into?
Bingo|9.3.08 @ 8:02PM|#
It went retard the instant Obama was accused of being a secret Muslim. It went full retard with the Reverend Wright and birth certificate stories.
Face it, we are now in turbo-retard.
I've got a feeling its going to find a way to become even more
retarded before its over.
Naga Sadow|9.3.08 @ 8:04PM|#
You should've gone to China, you know, 'cause I hear they give away babies like free iPods. You know, they pretty much just put them in those t-shirt guns and shoot them out at sporting events.
B|9.3.08 @ 8:04PM|#
"I love throwing Gore chum in the water.
Dance, you fools, dance!'
Sure that's why you do that, because in reality you actually
believe Al Gore is a hypocrite. You were only trying to provoke us.
Sure thing joe.
All along I have been saying shit about Obama just to piss you off.
I was really just trying to see how many times you would use the
phrases "Bush bots" and "Republican talking points" in one day. I
actually intend on voting for Obama.
Dagny T.|9.3.08 @ 8:05PM|#
Meta-retard. We are retarded about our own
retardedness.
Not only have we drained the word 'retard' of all meaning, I think
the meta-retard thing did some damage to the space-time
continuum.
Naga Sadow|9.3.08 @ 8:09PM|#
You better pay for that pee-stick when you're done with it. Don't think it's yours just because you marked it with your urine!
Bingo|9.3.08 @ 8:10PM|#
Now if we get retarded about meta-retardation and how retarded it is do we create some sort of self-sustaining singularity of pure retardedness that consumes all meaning from existence and which congressional district would be most likely to vote it into office?
Dagny T.|9.3.08 @ 8:11PM|#
Nah... I mean, I'm already pregnant, so what other kind of
shenanigans could I get into?
This is one doodle that can't be undid, homeskillet.
(I've refrained from all Juno references until now, okay?
I blame Naga.)
Naga Sadow|9.3.08 @ 8:14PM|#
Would you like a free condom? They're boysenberry.
No, thanks. I'm off sex right now.
My boyfriend wears them every time we have intercourse, it makes
his junk smell like pie.
Bags|9.3.08 @ 8:17PM|#
stubby, if you think Al Gore's argument is that you should live in a mud hut, you are deluded partisan moron.
ok, who's posting under joe's handle? Even the real joe, being the
vapid shit stain that he is, couldn't help but recognize the irony
of that statement.
|9.3.08 @ 8:17PM|#
Not only have we drained the word 'retard' of all meaning, I
think the meta-retard thing did some damage to the space-time
continuum
If you and Naga keep up with the Juno stuff, I think we're
going to pull off what the Large Hadron Collider can't. A
retard-plosion.
Naga Sadow|9.3.08 @ 8:19PM|#
Dagny T.,
I'm gonna take the Joe route and say that I meant to infect you
with the desire to post Juno references. For my own obscure
reasons. Not like I was just watching the movie about two hours ago
and was LMAO.
Naga Sadow|9.3.08 @ 8:22PM|#
That's a wise choice because I knew this girl who like had this crazy freak out because she took too many behavioral meds at once and she like ripped off her clothes, and dove into the fountain at Ridgedale Mall and was like, "Blah I am a Kracken from the sea!"
modd|9.3.08 @ 8:23PM|#
Remember people, religious conservative's children don't get to
have fun ever (theoretically). Drinking is frowned upon,
recreational premarital sex is frowned upon, etc. Ergo, they tend
to have family earlier in life at least to indulge in the sex (Urge
and urge and urge always the procreant urge of the world). If
Bristol is to be a mother at a young age, so be it. I know it's
hard NOT to project onto others because our way is always the best
way. Fair 'nuff. But Libertarians, I always fancied, were about
letting people live the way they wanted to live.
As for the culture wars, Libertarians should be aloof. Those are
other people's kids. We don't care about them. Let the others fret.
Our own, we can teach them our own beliefs.
Much ado about nothing. Hypocrites a-go-go. Business as usual
Dagny T.|9.3.08 @ 8:25PM|#
A retard-plosion.
The mere fact that you call an orgasm a retard-plosion tells me
you're not ready.
Dingell Norwood|9.3.08 @ 8:29PM|#
OT
I love throwing Gore chum in the water.
He jobbed three debates to Bush and he still almost won !
Gotta suck
There are worse retirements than being a rich psuedo-science crank
and his wife is still kinda hot.
|9.3.08 @ 8:33PM|#
You know what? I'm going to throw on a skirt, take off my underwear, and make your retard-plosion proud!
Naga Sadow|9.3.08 @ 8:43PM|#
Christ!!! I almost got a nosebleed from reading that. Keep workin' on it, Epi. Soon you will be able to hold the world for ransom.
|9.3.08 @ 8:53PM|#
Well, yes, but I'm afraid I prematurely shot my wad on
what was supposed to be a dry run, if you will, so now I'm
afraid I have something of a mess on my hands.
(ok, have to go now--good stuff)
|9.3.08 @ 9:03PM|#
How about this. We agree that the daughter is a big deal, if
everyone who ever had sex before they were 18, stressed over being
pregnant or having gotten their g/f pregnant, or was pregnant when
they got married agree to vote for McCain? That should cover about
99% of the adult age population in US and settle the
election.
What the hell is wrong with people?
|9.3.08 @ 9:08PM|#
One other thing. Last I heard it was a free country and anyone
of age can screw whoever they hell they like and have as many kids
as they can support.
It is nice that people like Jennifer are so interested in this
girl's party life. But, ultimately it is none of anyone's business
how many kids this girl any more than it is anyone's business that
Jennifer waits until she is 40 to have kids.
Anti-Globalism|9.3.08 @ 9:19PM|#
You're going to upset the mainstream media and the crowd they
service.
Standards = bad; no standards = good.
Some Christians have standards. Christianity bad!!1!
thoreau|9.3.08 @ 9:26PM|#
I don't want to see an election decided based on a pregnant teenager unless the teenager got knocked up by a candidate.
Matt|9.3.08 @ 9:26PM|#
So, basically, 20+ years of right-wingers decrying premarital sex and vilifying those who engage in it is the same as a couple more-or-less anonymous blog commenters making most likely tongue-in-cheek statements about Bristol Palin being a slut? Give me a fucking break.
|9.3.08 @ 9:29PM|#
Oh, no, I love Gore, B. I'd have voted for him ahead of
Obama.
It's still just very easy to get people to write idiotic things by
using his name.
Dingell, you have odd taste in women.
|9.3.08 @ 9:34PM|#
"I don't want to see an election decided based on a pregnant
teenager unless the teenager got knocked up by a candidate."
That was her mistake; not sleeping with a candidate. If she had
gotten knocked up by John Edwards, it would have been tabloid trash
not worth printing.
|9.3.08 @ 9:36PM|#
Joe,
Al Gore, before he went batshit insane over global warming, was not
a bad guy or politician. He was never a crazy when he was VP. I
don't know what the hell happened to him after 2000. He went out
there and he just didn't come back.
Mad Max|9.3.08 @ 9:41PM|#
"It's a bunch of stupid inane bullshit and has absolutely
nothing to do with how a candidate's policies are going to affect
my life and my livelihood and my freedoms. It needs to . . .
end.
"Why? This stuff is the best part of election time!"
I think you are right. I initially went out of this thread in
search of something more intellectually stimulating. I found the
"cultural relativism" thread, got bored, and came back here.
I realized that I actually like this stuff. And why not? Us common
folk have for years enjoyed hearing stories about the misdeeds of
the ruling classes. It makes our servitude more bearable - our
masters may be power-hungry fiends who want to force us to
surrender our property, liberty and lives, but at least they can't
force us to take them seriously.
JGR|9.3.08 @ 9:48PM|#
joe maundered: "I love throwing Gore chum in the water."
That's fine, as long as you're not expecting Teddy to save your
chum when he's in the water. He doesn't do too well with that
part.
|9.3.08 @ 10:03PM|#
stubby, you're the reason i hope there is a hell
Aw shucks. I've never been anyone's reason to hope there is a hell
before.
Nick|9.3.08 @ 10:04PM|#
Just wondering why society as a whole (including myself) thinks
it's a good idea to wait until we're long past the sexual prime of
our lives to get married and have kids? Back in the day, it made no
big deal to be a pregnant teenager and was completely logical.
Probably many of our grandmothers were.
On that same track, why do we think that younger kids shouldn't get
jobs (under the simplistic perception that "child labor is evil"),
when that's the age when kids most want to work and find adult
responsibility to be exciting? Parents might let their kids mow our
lawns, but would be outraged if their neighbor put their kids to
work sewing shirts or stocking books in a summer job for a
profitable company? I started working summers in a children's
bookstore in 6th grade, a few years before it was technically
"legal" to call me an employee. I think it was one of the best
experiences of my life to be trusted with important projects and
even the boring work at such a young age, and get paid for
it...
These are strikes against the Right and the Left, who have made
teen pregnancies and (non-forced) child labor into bogeymen that
are killing our children. Society has become so devoted to
preserving childhood and preventing kids from growing up too soon.
If there's one thing this Babygate story says, it's that this sort
of story really should NOT be a big deal or anything of a
controversy. I'd love it if someone took the time to find these
commentators' ancestors and publish the dates of birth and marriage
among their grandparents and/or great-grandparents. We might as
well show everyone to express any opinion on everything to be a
hypocrite at one point or another.
|9.3.08 @ 10:04PM|#
"Last I heard it was a free country and anyone of age can screw
whoever they hell they like and have as many kids as they can
support. "
John, I thought you of all people had heard of these folks called
"Republicans."
People are having fun with Palin because she is the darling of the
very Puritan faction of the GOP that pushes abstinence down the
throats of our teen-agers, fumed when sodomy laws were stuck down
(read Scalia's dissent for some fun), want to ban reproductive
freedom, etc., etc.,. Liberals don't hate unwed mothers and teens
who have sex, but we do delight when people who do get bit in the
ass.
|9.3.08 @ 10:06PM|#
Throwing the Puritan meanness of Puritans back in their face is
like, fun.
And it makes TAO cry and his tears are so yummy!
|9.3.08 @ 10:09PM|#
"Liberals don't hate unwed mothers and teens who have sex, but
we do delight when people who do get bit in the ass."
How is it that you are so sure that Palin hates unwed mothers?
Further, her daughter is getting married. That would make her a wed
mother. Lastly, only bigoted moron thinks evangelicals hate unwed
mothers.
God must like stupid people, because he sure makes a lot of
them.
|9.3.08 @ 10:11PM|#
One more thing, where does Palin or anyone else for that matter say that you can't teach your kids whatever the hell you want about sex? It is people like you that want to shove sex ed down everyone's throat. I frankly don't think schools ought to teach a damn thing about sex. I will do that. I don't want the state telling my kids what their values are. That is my business as a parent, not the state's.
Neu Mejican|9.3.08 @ 10:13PM|#
John | September 3, 2008, 10:11pm | #
One more thing, where does Palin or anyone else for that matter say
that you can't teach your kids whatever the hell you want about
sex? It is people like you that want to shove sex ed down
everyone's throat. I frankly don't think schools ought to teach a
damn thing about sex. I will do that. I don't want the state
telling my kids what their values are. That is my business as a
parent, not the state's.
Values do not equal accurate information.
|9.3.08 @ 10:15PM|#
"Values do not equal accurate information."
Yes and it is your job as the state to tell everyone, including
five year olds all of that acurate information. Parents cannot be
trusted to be accurate so we must do it for them about everything,
including things as private as sex. It is the State's job to teach
everything and reach into every part of everyone's life.
Everyone loves government as soon as their ox gets gored or someone
does something they don't like.
|9.3.08 @ 10:18PM|#
I love all of this retarded bullshit about how this girl got
pregnant because her mother didn't teach her about contraception.
Clearly, everyone who knows about that has never said fuck it and
risked getting pregnant and no one is is "informed" ever
accidentily got pregnant. No teenager ever disobeyed their
parents.
Look at it this way, if a pro gun NRA guy's daughter shot someone
with an unregulated handgun, would you clowns be on here saying he
is a hypocrite? Afterall he did advocate free access to guns and
his son did shoot somone. It is the same logic.
|9.3.08 @ 10:23PM|#
The problem with Gore was that he catered to the far left to win
the primaries--as is customary--then he forgot to move back to the
center that he'd lived in most of his career, well, ever. With all
due respect to his fans, he's lost it. People who think his
position on the environment is based on science need to stop
getting their science from movies. And despite the comments above,
he has been a mite hypocritical.
If Gore had remained the Gore he was in the Senate, he would've
easily beat the incredibly lightweight presented in GWB. Of course,
as is their wont, the Democrats see Bush, hate him as much as
humanly possible, then rush out to anoint the Democratic version of
Bush.
Neu Mejican|9.3.08 @ 10:23PM|#
John,
Sex education, like science, or history, is a content area that
schools have a responsibility to teach as accurately as
possible.
Censoring information from a curriculum is poor educational
practice no matter the subject.
Sex education is part of basic information about how the human body
works. It is called biology, health, etc...it is never bad to
provide information to children...even when they are five.
Accurate information is value free.
Rusty Trombone|9.3.08 @ 10:23PM|#
Levi\'s as lucky for getting to bang her as he is stupid for not
knowing to wrap it first. Sure, she looks a little chubby now, but
before she got knocked up that was some hot teenage ass. I\'d
hit that (and you know you would too). And have you seen
the rack on that babe? I\'d still do her, even
[especially] pregnant
|9.3.08 @ 10:29PM|#
"One more thing, where does Palin or anyone else for that matter
say that you can't teach your kids whatever the hell you want about
sex? It is people like you that want to shove sex ed down
everyone's throat."
Have you read the Republican Party Platform for Alaska? It lists
"promiscuity" as a "social dysfunction" that they support
"combating." It says that sex education "must be
abstinence-based."
Rusty Trombone|9.3.08 @ 10:31PM|#
Fuckity, fuck, fuck, fuck. Stupid links:
Should be,
before she got prego and
nice rack. See what happens when I get all excited and
stuff?
|9.3.08 @ 10:32PM|#
Palin said our boys are doing God's work in Iraq. That hockey player was doing something else in her daughter.
|9.3.08 @ 10:34PM|#
"Further, her daughter is getting married. That would make her a
wed mother."
She certainly wasn't married when she got diddled. Hmm, who are
those people so opposed to society condoning extramarital sex and
the death of outrage and shame? Liberals? LOL John!
Marshall|9.3.08 @ 11:02PM|#
Lots of comments already, but I'm surprised I didn't see this in
the comments I read. (I'm sure it's there somewhere, so I apologize
for repeating whoever else said it first.)
I live 40 minutes from Focus on the Family. I have spent my life
(I'm 18, roughly Bristol Palin's age) living in very religious
communities, like Colorado Springs and Kalamazoo, Michigan. Is it
remotely possible that the religious right is cutting her slack
because she's the daughter of a social conservative?
Having lived with these people my entire life, I know how
completely disingenuous they can be. I don't mean to slur them all,
but had this been some random kid, they'd be gossiping about her,
calling her a slut, basically everything some in the liberal
community are doing now. The lesson here, I think, is that if
you're the Republican vice presidential nominee's daughter and the
fucking goes wrong, you can get away with it a lot better than you
can if you're unaffiliated or liberal. I've dealt with all sorts of
harassment from the religious crew due to my perfectly
non-intrusive beliefs because, honestly, so many of them are
fascists and want to convert you and pry into your private life
(Same goes for extreme atheists, Muslims, whatever -- people just
take it too seriously sometimes.)
What I can't imagine is how it must feel to be this Bristol chick.
How can Sarah Palin be for family values when you willingly accept
the nomination for vice president when you know your daughter's
personal life is going to become such a destructive issue in the
campaign? As a teenager, that's what makes other teens kill
themselves. It's a horrible position for Ms. Palin to be in and my
heart honestly, truly goes out to her. This has nothing to do with
politics or gender; I'd feel the exact same if it was a male
Democrat's daughter (or a... libertarian something or other?). It
just feels very wrong and very unfair to her daughter. But that's
just me. And I really don't think it matters if her daughter said
she was okay with it. I don't know anyone who wouldn't be
psychologically damaged by all the things being said about her
right now if they were being said about them. Meh. I don't know, it
just really saddens me.
And I honestly think that when your mom is not willing to teach sex
ed in classrooms, there's going to be some bleed over into your
personal life one way or another, no matter if her mom taught her
about sex ed herself (er...). There's just going to be that vibe
there somehow, no matter what. When you just don't want sex ed
taught in public schools, you're like literally fucking things up
for a lot of kids. And I have to believe that the desire to teach
abstinence over sex ed in public schools has to have some at least
subconscious bleed over into how Sarah Palin raised her daughters
and sons and taught them about safe sexual practices.
|9.3.08 @ 11:18PM|#
Are you people kidding me? This is the blog that consistently
says regardless of parent's wishes the drinking age, the age of
consent, and all kinds of other "underage" laws should be
changed.
Now, when one parent with 5 children has one that has succumbed to
that normal of urges at her age, you blame the parents???
I thought the kid at this age, according to the local wisdom here,
was to do what she wished.
Is this the definition of irony?
Jesse Walker|9.3.08 @ 11:19PM|#
Your outrage is about as appropriate as the outrage one
might feel over Reason, because Lonewacko posts about
IllegalImmigration, or shecky posts about the amusement to be had
over Palin's family.
Shecky (and Joe, and Matt, anyone else who made more or less this
point): I yield to no one in my contempt for drawing the wrong sort
of conclusions from blog comments. I have mocked other writers in
print for drawing the wrong sort of conclusions from blog comments.
As an editor, I have instructed contributors to rewrite passages
that relied on blog comment threads. I know where you're coming
from.
But those quotes aren't there to represent what pundits or
politicians are saying. They're there to represent how one
particular argument -- that Palin shouldn't be VP because she can't
"control" her kids -- keeps popping up in places where people who
aren't professional pundits or pols gather to talk about
this issue. It isn't any particular semi-anonymous commenter who's
important; it's the number of semi-anonymous commenters who are
saying the same thing. (And if you Goggle the appropriate phrases,
or hang out in the appropriate meatspace places, you'll find that I
didn't exactly exhaust the list of people who have been saying it.)
That in itself is newsworthy, whether or not it's "equivalent" to
the words emanating from Dobson et al. I'm not making a partisan
point here (as many of you know, I'm rooting for Obama, though if I
vote it'll be for Barr). I'm making a sociological one.
|9.3.08 @ 11:23PM|#
^ Marshall -
One could use your agrument against any candidate with children.
Chelsa was looked at, Bush's daughters were drinking underage, etc,
etc, etc.
When the women you work close to have a minor with a pregnancy do
they go home and stop working?
FWIW though - I do feel sorry for the daughter. She might have been
slightly talked about in school, but I don't think in her wildess
inclinations she would've considered being called a slut in the
national media.
|9.3.08 @ 11:26PM|#
I agree with stubby's rant so much I am going to post it again,
enjoy!
Y'know, I've been a registered Independent for a while. Voted for Slick Willie twice, and still don't regret it. Voted for W twice only because the Democratic party managed to nominate not one, but two men who make me throw up a little in my mouth every time I see them. Would willingly and thoughtfully have considered voting for Hillary, especially if the Republicans had nominated Mitt.
I'm pro-choice, pro-gun, pro-gay, pro-legal drugs - I'm no social conservative, ok?
But I have to say - I've never been so disgusted with the media as I am right now, and I have never been so convinced that a large majority - a very large majority - of the left side of the blogosphere lives in a sewer.
A media that has shed all pretense of neutrality and is actively manipulating, distorting and altering the news in order to swing the election to one candidate - that's fucking dangerous. It's not the politicians and blog denizens piling on Palin that disturb me nearly so much as the so called "respectable" media. Glenn Reynolds is right - if the McCain camp had just said that John Edwards is Bristol Palin's baby daddy, we wouldn't have heard another goddamned word about it.
The major networks and newspapers have reprinted every vile piece of shit rumor or masterbatory fantasy coughed up by the cesspool blogs. Even Andrew Sullivan - whom I don't consider a journalist but whom I also did not, until recently, consider completely fucking insane - is saying that it's "not unreasonable" for Sarah Palin to provide prove that she is her own baby's mother. WTF???
You've got the Neanderthals at DU saying that destroying one teenage girl's life is worth it if it gets Obama elected. You've got that crazed bitch in Philadelphia flatly stating that if Obama loses we will have a full out race war.
Fuck all of them. I completely disagree with all of Palin's social views. I'm a RINO, for God's sake. It's gonna be a really, really, really long goddamned time before I vote for a Democrat again. I want McCain to win because there is a miniscule, but nonetheless real, chance that if he does the Democratic party might be retaken by adults who flush the crazies back down the toilet that coughed them up.
And yes, I know Republicans play dirty too. But not that dirty. And if Sarah Palin were a man, I wouldn't be so fucking pissed off. But if Sarah Palin were a man, the media wouldn't be doing this to her. So fuck them.
|9.3.08 @ 11:27PM|#
Jesse -
I agree with you - if this is a talking point among multiple blog
posters, then I see reporting on it as the same as going to the RNC
and asking random people outside their thoughts and then reporting
on the synposis of those thoughts.
I still think their arguement is irony by definition, but I agree
with you that the debate seems to be prevelant among a certain
percentage of the population.
Though I speculate these are younger voters without children who
likley won't vote in the numbers they post, but that's complete
speculation for which I have no facts.
|9.3.08 @ 11:32PM|#
The interesting thing is that if the media had been half way
fair and balanced mccain (and obama for that matter) probably would
not have been the nominee.
The media is whining about his job vetting palin while being
utterly oblivious to the fact that they completely bricked their
job of getting information out there so the public could properly
vet the presidential candidates during the primaries.
The entrenched ignorance and political hackery of the media is a
threat to the nation.
Marshall|9.3.08 @ 11:34PM|#
I get that, but Chelsea and the Bush twins, etc weren't pregnant, unwed, still in high school, and planning to marry their high school boyfriend. I mean, this is like Britney Spears sort of behavior and we've all seen how the media treats that sort of thing. I'm just saying this from the perspective of a teenager. If I was 20 years older I might, and probably would, have a different opinion. But she's just been beat up so much already in the first couple days of her mom becoming the vice presidential pick. (And it's going to go on for the rest of the election and then for at least 4 years if a miracle occurs and McCain wins, so the girl is not going to get any rest for the weary.) The McCain campaign even warned Sarah Palin that her daughter would become a target, really. I just couldn't personally imagine doing that to a kid if I was her father. I dunno. That's just my personal opinion on the subject and I see where you're coming from here, but it just seems contradictory to "family values," you know? And can you imagine what people would say if Michelle Obama was running for president and Bristol Palin was her daughter? The situation would be completely reversed and Michelle's daughter would be the one called a slut by conservatives and defended by liberals. This is a political issue on both sides, not one that shows liberals are meaner about out of wedlock sex, because conservatives would be doing the same thing to the pregnant teen if the situation was reserved.
|9.3.08 @ 11:44PM|#
Marshall -
I don't disagree with the argument that says both sides would use
this incident to any advantage they think they could get.
& to be honest, I don't think families are necessarily off
limits. Hell, if VP Candidate so-and-so had three kids all in jail,
that's obviously worthwhile.
But the idea that just because I believe in X and teach my kids X,
mean they follow it without question is demeaning.
And as I read this blog alot, but post only occassionaly, I don't
know you that well. But the prolific around here all want more
rights for children.
To say on any other day this child should be able to do as she
pleases, but then argue it's all the parents faults is the
definition of congitive dissonance.
I might have just thought you like them, and am happy if I'm
incorrect. As, like you, I don't know that I'd ever want my family
to go through this process. Even in my case, when my skeletons are
much larger than those of my family.
Marshall|9.4.08 @ 12:00AM|#
Well, I'm not really into 17 year olds getting pregnant. It's
hard to stop and I'm seeing the really bad side of it now with my
girlfriend's best friend pretty much having her life ruined and
thrown away because she's pregnant, 18, unemployed, no insurance,
not gonna go to college. I realize she's an "adult" and allowed to
make those choices legally, but it's still very sad. I'm not
pushing for the rights of children to own AKs or have 12 year olds
drinking boxed wine and Natty Ice. I think that, because part of
making good choices (or making choices at all, even bad), is some
mental coherency and full mental development, which doesn't occur
until around 19-20 years old, it's unfair to expect children to
operate on the same level as adults. It's obviously why a kid who
is 16 is just thinking on a purely different level than a 25 year
old. And we can argue about the mentally ill or whatever here, but
as a whole, I think people aren't mature enough to make decisions
until they're at least mentally mature (which doesn't necessarily
equate to emotional or psychological maturity, I just mean their
brains, scientifically, are more or less all there), which doesn't
occur until one's late teens. So I am not pushing for children to
have all sorts of responsibilities and the capability to make
choices that they are not mentally equipped to make, I guess.
But at the same time, I realize that a lot of people of past
generations had kids at 17, 18, 19 years old and it was commonplace
and not frowned upon. On my dad's side of the family, you were a
spinster if you weren't married and knocked up by the time you were
14. But it just goes to show that those kids aren't mentally mature
enough to be allowed to make those choices for themselves.
At 17, it's a little more ambiguous as to the level of mental
maturity and whether or not she is equipped to fully understand the
repercussions of her choices until after the fact, but she made
them and has to live with them. And I think at 17, it can be argued
she is responsible and capable of being held so for the choices
she's made about sex. Then again, she is still living with her
parents as far as I know and, once again, I am suspicious of a
family with that sort of political ideology really teaching
comprehensive sex ed. So I don't know, haha.
|9.4.08 @ 12:16AM|#
Marshall -
No agruments here; I got married (thought w/o a pregnant g/f) at
(today) a very young age. I'm 35, got married at 19, wife 18.
I don't know that she has the will nor the maturity for the task. I
would assume, like me even without children, she doesn't. But
somehow I grew into it. Hopefully her and her b/f, soon to be
husband, will be able to do so as well.
My only issue is that neither full sex ed or AO sex ed is proven.
They both seem to have the same basic rate or pregnancies and STDs
(from what I've read).
So from what I know, neither the "always use a condom" crowd or the
"AO" crowd can do much. Kids in the end will make their decisions
lead them.
As a personal experience, I'm a bit of a prick (who could've
guessed, huh?). My daughter is almost too caring to the point of
concern that sometimes her thoughts should be more important than
others.
My point? She's only 11 and has a bigger heart than I or my wife
could've possibly given her. I try my best to teach her to think
for herself (as well as others, but not to her detrimnt), but like
us all, some of her decisions will be wrong and she will pay.
That's life experience. & no matter how much us parents want to
say, "Trust me, you don't want this" - they all want to find out
for themselves.
This isn't because I haven't tried, or refused to discuss sex, or
drugs, or whatevere, it's simply that she is her own pereson.
|9.4.08 @ 12:23AM|#
Marshall -
Secondary thought - I appreciate you not knee-jerking to my
comments or pinpointing me to one candidate or the other, but
instead you've dealt with my specific comments.
I only mention this because it happens less and less on blogs.
Neu Mejican|9.4.08 @ 12:35AM|#
My only issue is that neither full sex ed or AO sex ed is
proven. They both seem to have the same basic rate or pregnancies
and STDs (from what I've read).
I haven't looked at the latest studies, but that certainly didn't
seem to be the case when I was following the studies more closely
(I used to have to teach sex ed annually to 5th graders). The AO
programs have higher STD rates, and more risky behavior associated
with them. The main factor in preventing unwanted pregnancy/std's
is contraception...kids should get that information.
http://www.ajph.org/cgi/content/abstract/97/1/150
A recent look...
Neu Mejican|9.4.08 @ 12:38AM|#
Making the case based on the idea of rights and liberty rather
than results.
http://baywood.metapress.com/app/home/contribution.asp?referrer=parent&backto=issue,7,11;journal,6,151;linkingpublicationresults,1:300313,1
|9.4.08 @ 12:52AM|#
Neu Mejican -
I think the quote is, "lies, damned lies, and statistics."
From my understanding the actual pregnancy rate of teenage mothers
is extremely low - I would find it, but too tired. This means if
full sex ed is 1 out of 1000 prenancy (making up numbers). a 38%
increase is basicalaly .3 childern for every 1000. While it appears
statisitically significant, it's cettainly not quantivtatively
significant.
|9.4.08 @ 12:55AM|#
I'm meant .003 increase. Obvsiously in cetain demographics and
regions this doesn't hold true, but someone looking for the truth
should ask, 38% of what?
38% of 1 or 38% of 10,000 makes a difference.
|9.4.08 @ 1:35AM|#
i don't see where all this 'abstinence only sex education is
causing teens to get pregnant cause they don't know about sex'
business is coming from. maybe things have changed in the past
seven years since i was in 10th grade, or maybe my school district
was unique, but we did have a pretty comprehensive sex ed class
called 'health' that covered stds, contraceptives, condoms and all
that business. and while the main point the teachers tried to make
was to wait until we were adults before having sex, they still
covered everything mentioned above pretty thoroughly. the fact is
the majority of kids entering high school know very well that if
they don't want to get pregnant or an std, use condoms.
as for those commenting about palin not being able to 'control' her
almost adult daughter, i think these people should look at their
own children, if they have them. if they think their kids aren't
having sex or doing things of a sexual nature because they say not
to, they are extremely naive. beyond locking them in a room until
they are 18, you can't control that aspect of a teens life. you can
tell them no, no, no, wait, wait, wait until you are blue in the
face but in the end they are going to do what they want to,
regardless.
ConTextant|9.4.08 @ 2:46AM|#
A 17 year old gets knocked up? Wow, that's never happened
before.
This doesn't add or take anything from the campaign - it's a
non-issue.
Abdul|9.4.08 @ 7:23AM|#
Stubby had the most profound comments on this issue, but only if
you exclude URKOBOLD.
I never thought it possible, but URKOBOLD's comments about cleavage
actually raised the tone of the debate.
Alice Bowie|9.4.08 @ 9:47AM|#
A 17 year old gets knocked up? Wow, that's never happened
before.
This doesn't add or take anything from the campaign - it's a
non-issue.
Exactly, it shouldn't be an issue. It's the religious psychos and
conservatives that wanna make laws making it an issue.
A woman should have a right to choose PRIVATELY. No one wants John
Aschroft investigating women to see if the Abortion happened in 3
months instead of 2.
This just shows how hypocritical the Conservatives are
about this so-called private matter.
They say that they believe in SMALL GOVERNMENT or NO GOVERNMENT
intervention...Yet, they wanna OUTLAW everything and have
PARA-MILITARY raids for marijuana AND prefer the coat
hanger for the poor than a regular abortion.
Jay S.|9.4.08 @ 10:48AM|#
I pretty much throw out the opinions of anyone who says "Do you want [candidate] running the country?" unless the candidate is an obvious statist. The president should only run the government - a small one if we were lucky - and not every little thing in the country.
Neu Mejican|9.4.08 @ 10:58AM|#
G4m3Th30ry | September 4, 2008, 12:52am | #
Neu Mejican -
I think the quote is, "lies, damned lies, and statistics."
From my understanding the actual pregnancy rate of teenage mothers
is extremely low - I would find it, but too tired. This means if
full sex ed is 1 out of 1000 prenancy (making up numbers). a 38%
increase is basicalaly .3 childern for every 1000. While it appears
statisitically significant, it's cettainly not quantivtatively
significant.
G4m3Th30ry | September 4, 2008, 12:55am | #
I'm meant .003 increase. Obvsiously in cetain demographics and
regions this doesn't hold true, but someone looking for the truth
should ask, 38% of what?
38% of 1 or 38% of 10,000 makes a difference.
Sure, effect sizes are what matter.
So on your made up numbers...the real numbers are closer to 90 per
1000, iirc.
The effect of abstinence and contraceptive use are about equal in
reducing teen pregnancy meaning that if you successfully implement
only one of these strategies in your sex ed, you cut your
effectiveness by 50%.
|9.4.08 @ 11:02AM|#
Throwing the Puritan meanness of Puritans back in their face
is like, fun.
IIRC, Edmund Morgan's essay on "The Puritans and Sex" showed that,
back in 17th century Massachusetts (you know, the real Puritans,
the ones who got that name because they wanted to purify the Church
of England of papist trappings), about one out of every three
brides was pregnant when she got married. I think Puritans (and
puritans) are pretty aware that, while this sort of thing isn't the
ideal, it happens.
|9.4.08 @ 12:30PM|#
"A person who might make a great mother at 27 won't necessarily
make one at 17."
And a person who would be a crappy mother at 17 won't necessarily
make a great one at 27.
Lighten up everyone. I doubt she'll drop out of school, but even if
she does, she can always go back.
Anecdote: One of my friends who was the oldest girl in a family of
13 left home and school at the age of 11 to go to work as a maid in
San Juan. She had four kids every year, starting at age 20. She
spoke only Spanish when I first met her.
She now has a college degree and teaching certificate.
Abdul|9.4.08 @ 2:13PM|#
Stubby,
I'm sure URKOBOLD would join you a couple of times if your knockers
were bigger. Talk to a plastic surgeon.
|9.4.08 @ 3:13PM|#
Anecdote: One of my friends who was the oldest girl in a family
of 13 left home and school at the age of 11 to go to work as a maid
in San Juan. She had four kids every year, starting at age 20. She
spoke only Spanish when I first met her.
How does one have 4 kids every year? I guess twins, all the
time?
|9.4.08 @ 4:28PM|#
Abdul: Ah. That's the problem, then. I used to have large knockers. I went to the plastic surgeon for a reverse enhancement.
atrevete|9.4.08 @ 5:28PM|#
Midget, I should be more precise, or learn to use commas or something. One child every year for four years for a total of four.
Not Bobby Collins|9.5.08 @ 11:18AM|#
Al Gore, before he went batshit insane over global warming,
was not a bad guy or politician. He was never a crazy when he was
VP. I don't know what the hell happened to him after 2000. He went
out there and he just didn't come back.
He went out of bounds.
|9.6.08 @ 5:15PM|#
So you really hit the gamut of liberal opinion there by reading a sex advice columnist and nutpicking anonymous comments. What an incredibly poorly argued article.
some girl|9.9.08 @ 2:04AM|#
Liberals are jealous of Sarah Palin, because she's pretty, she's
also loving enough to accept a different kind of person she'll have
to work extra hard for into her life and she has a husband who is
willing too. I admire her, probably not enough to vote McCain/Palin
because of the war issues and a resistance to US military
expansion. But she's a fascinating person, and I naturally admire
her motherhood spirit.
I too am disturbed by Obama's lack of discernment between abortions
in the first trimester (like killing a fish) and not giving a baby
that survived abortion a chance to live (killing a baby). This is
NOT a cut and dry issue at all, and Palin's popularity is connected
to a real need to examine sex, motherhood, fatherhood, the state's
role in protecting people whose families can't or won't...there is
a lot to weigh.
|9.11.08 @ 7:13AM|#
I'm sorry but the christian's bible is unequivocal about what
their god demands a believer must do to the deflowered and
unmarried teenage daughter of Sarah Palin.
Deuteronomy 22 21 (King James Version)
"Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's
house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she
die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in
her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among
you."
That's pretty heinous but this isn't a minor sin like plowing a
field using an ox and a horse at the same time or wearing mixed
fabrics. This young girl is a harlot and this is a capital crime.
of course, these holier than-thou types won't do what's required by
their religion. They're such major hypocrites.
For example, they enact all these "orifice laws" to regulate what
they don't want people to put in our bodies, like drugs. So now the
US has have more people in jail than any other county in the
world.
Leave a Comment
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