Ronald Bailey | July 22, 2008
(Page 2 of 2)
The menace of molecular manufacturing?
Next up was Michael Treder and Chris Phoenix from the Center for Responsible Nanotechnology. They cannily opened with a series of quotations claiming that science will never be able to solve this or that problem. Two of my favorites were: "Pasteur's theory of germs is a ridiculous fiction" by Pierre Pachet in 1872, and "Space travel is utter bilge," by Astronomer Royal Richard Woolley in 1956. Of course, the point is that arguments that molecular manufacturing is impossible are likely to suffer the same predictive failures. Their vision of molecular manufacturing involves using trillions of very small machines to make something larger. They envision desktop nanofactories into which people feed simple raw inputs and get out nearly any product they desire. The proliferation of such nanofactories would end scarcity forever. "We can't expect to have only positive outcomes without mitigating negative outcomes," cautioned Treder.
What kind of negative outcomes? Nanofactories could produce not only hugely beneficial products such as water filters, solar cells, and houses, but also weapons of any sort. Such nanofabricated weapons would be vastly more powerful than today's. Since these weapons are so powerful, there is a strong incentive for a first strike. In addition, an age of nanotech abundance would eliminate the majority of jobs, possibly leading to massive social disruptions. Social disruption creates the opportunity for a charismatic personality to take hold. "Nanotechnology could lead to some form of world dictatorship," said Treder. "There is a global catastrophic risk that we could all be enslaved."
On the other hand, individuals with access to nanofactories could wield great destructive power. Phoenix and Treder's chief advice is more research into how to handle nanotech when it becomes a reality in the next couple of decades. In particular, Phoenix thinks that it's urgent to study whether offense or defense would be the best response. To Phoenix, offense looks a lot easier—there are a lot more ways to destroy things than to defend them. If that's true, we should narrow our future policy options.
This concluion left me musing on British historian Arnold Toynbee's observation: "The human race's prospects of survival were considerably better when we were defenseless against tigers than they are today when we have become defenseless against ourselves." I don't think that's right, but it's worth thinking about.
Ronald Bailey is reason's science correspondent. His book Liberation Biology: The Scientific and Moral Case for the Biotech Revolution is now available from Prometheus Books.
Disclosure: The Future of Humanity Institute is covering my travel expenses for the conference; no restrictions or conditions were placed on my reporting.
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In his final dispatch from the Oxford Catastrophic Risks
Conference
Cue ominous music.
Duuuuh dum.
Duuuuuuuuuuuuh dum.
Dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum
But all of these issues have been so well documented by
Hollywood, what could they possibly uncover now?
BTW, if you people loved human survival as much as me you would be
driving a hybrid* too.
*Burns both gas and rubber :)
TD,
When I get done with the motor and fuel system, mine will run on
that fancy undrinkable alcohol in adition to other organic
hydrocarbons, but I doubt I would run that stuff more than once a
quarter.
Now, when I get around to building up a hauler truck, I am with you
on the all-source diesel, but I will be leaning towards train oil,
only soylent biodiesel in a pinch ;)
John,
Do you just use the wafers in a boiler to heat the steam or do you
have some other system going?
Man, I like making fun of hippies just as much as the rest of you, but the compressed air car is a cool idea. Probably not very safe structurally, but still ingenious.
Guy,
The wafers actually can be ground into a liquidifyd past and burn
like diesel fuel.
Do you just use the wafers in a boiler to heat the steam or
do you have some other system going?
A person truly concerned with saving the Earth would just drain the
blood of the capitalists directly into her/his eco-vespa instead of
processing his/her fuel.
John, why do you hate the Earth? She is mother to us
all...
John,
Cool. For a moment I thought you were joking and was about to
inform you that TD and I are serious.
Never mind.
SF,
That is still something to laugh at.
The air car looks pretty cool. I saw an electric dirt bike on the net the other day. That sounds really cool being able to ride through the countryside with virtually no engine noise.
Guy,
I was joking. Apparently Sugarfree is the only one who got it.
Google Soylent Green. I know you guys are serious. I was just being
a smart ass.
John,
Sounds like something great for Cavalry Scouts. Last round of bikes
for them were Yamaha IIRC.
"The humans fear what they don't understand."
So replicators would be bad because they would make people
unemployed; I don't know about you all, but I work to pay for
stuff, food and shelter. I grant that there would be social
disruption, but I am willing to chance it. And I say that as an
employee of a freight forwarder facilitating the movement of
thousands of containers a year from the far east to North
America.
As for the AI, does emotion (like hate) necessarily follow from
intelligence? We shouldn't make an AI because it could kill us;
well, any baby could become a vicious serial killer, mass murderer
or elected official, but I don't usually see that argument used
against having kids.
In the Animatrix, the AIs tried to give the humans all the material
goods they could use, but the politicians, fearing the loss of
power from people not needing them, manipulated humanity into
starting the war. The AIs were pro-human until humanity started a
genocidal (luddicidal?) war against them.
IIRC, some people have proposed introducing baby AIs into Second
Life like environments so they can get used to people and people
can get used to them. My only worry is the kind of scumbags who
torture pets, people etc. getting to them before they realize most
such scumbags are the minority.
"Sounds like something great for Cavalry Scouts. Last round of
bikes for them were Yamaha IIRC."
Those guys have all the fun. I would love to turned lose on some
big ass manuever range with a license to tear ass around as I
pleased. I never thought of it that way but they would be good for
scouts. You could just keep a diesel generator in the rear to
recharge them. The only problem would be that it might take a while
to recharge them.
the compressed air car is a cool idea.
"Why no, it's not designed to haul more than 2 people nor any cargo
at all. Crash worthy? No, it crumples like a thin sheet of tin foil
in a stiff wind. What? It'll go for about 80 miles on a test track.
Why do you ask?"
"John,
We are big on the soylent green already! You never noticed?"
Yeah. I think this Hit and Run thread number 500 that has worked in
a Soylent Green reference. Once Tall Dave said "soylent bioldiesel"
you knew the Soylent Green reference could not be far behind.
"Why no, it's not designed to haul more than 2 people nor any
cargo at all."
Neither is a motorcycle and those are still cool.
"Crash worthy? No, it crumples like a thin sheet of tin foil in a
stiff wind."
Pansy.
Still waiting for the car that runs on a huge, tightly wound spring. This will require an infrastructure of winding stations, manned by giants. I dare to dream big.
So, nuclear winter is the only workable solution to man-made
global warming.
Now that's irony.
"Still waiting for the car that runs on a huge, tightly wound
spring. This will require an infrastructure of winding stations,
manned by giants. I dare to dream big."
You don't need a giant, you just need a big key that gives you some
leverage.
Leave JW alone. He's just still smarting over how hard I pwn'd him on the Dark Knight thread.
You could just keep a diesel generator in the rear to
recharge them. The only problem would be that it might take a while
to recharge them.
Spare battery modules in docking stations in the MRAP or other
vehicle.
Those new cool Marine Diesel/Electric vehicles have plenty of
charging capacity too, but I think they might be running up the
cost of TallDave's fuel.
Why no, it's not designed to haul more than 2 people nor any
cargo at all.
It seats six; it could easily seat four with cargo room.
RTFA.
Crash worthy? No, it crumples like a thin sheet of tin foil in
a stiff wind.
I believe I stipulated that it might not be safe. It is glued
together, after all.
It's interesting that the two fields that - at this moment - are
100% science fiction are the ones that everyone is the most scared
about.
I, for one, am sick and tired of the continuing attention the AI
singularity crowd gets. First of all, their methods for
"predicting" the imminent date of the singularity are laughable -
and have been wrong for decades.
Secondly, the level of unfounded speculation and ranting on the
topic approaches that you would expect from some doomsday cult
holed up in a desert bunker.
Yet they continue to be taken seriously. Amazing.
Is it theoretically possible to create AI? Sure, why not. But that
would be one of the major engineering accomplishments of human
history - it's not something that's going to pop into existence one
day on someone's hard drive like a technological immaculate
conception. It won't appear like a thief in the night any more than
my copy of Office is going to recode itself tomorrow night and grab
the launch codes from NORAD.
The other problem that the singularity folks have is mistaking
intelligence for power. No one would argue that Stephen Hawking,
for example, is one of the most intelligent people that's ever
lived. But how much power does he wield?
Let's wait until we make real progress - or even a tiny step in the
direction of real progress - and understand how this shakes out in
the *real world* before we start getting all in a lather. Any
discussion at this point has about as much validity as a heated
argument over the relative merits of Romulan vs. Kligon cloaking
technology.
Guy,
A HMMWV has a huge diesel engine. You could easily charge them off
of a idling HMMWV.
It seats six; it could easily seat four with cargo room.
RTFA.
How many in the ashtray?
I believe I stipulated that it might not be safe. It is glued
together, after all.
Plenty of cars are glued together today! They need to get with the
3M corporate overlords for the proper adhesive.
Hey now, it wasn't *that* bad. I forget one little fucking
detail....grumblegrumble
John--Motorcycles are always cool and always will be. Smart
Cars/Air cars will never be cool, even if giant coolness-sucking
zombie aliens invade the Earth and destroy all that is cool.
And I will be right behind our own native badass, Nick Gillespie,
who will be leading the charge against these soulless demons,
riding our bikes straight into the mouth of certain doom. Yeah, you
heard me. Right fucking at them. I'll see you in Hell,
pal.
A HMMWV has a huge diesel engine. You could easily charge
them off of a idling HMMWV.
Maybe, but they will be getting hauled around in something bigger.
Might need to add charging capacity to the HMMWV too.
"Any discussion at this point has about as much validity as a
heated argument over the relative merits of Romulan vs. Kligon
cloaking technology."
Everyone knows that debate was settled years ago in the Romulan's
favor.
What about the dangers of turning SETI active and sending out
signals to let whatever is out there, if anything, know we are
here? I know that sounds far out, but we seriously have no idea
what if any life is out there. The aging hippies at SETI are
convinced that any intelligence in the universe must be some kind
of benevolent age of aquiarius types and could never mean us harm.
Where the hell is HP Lovecraft when you need him.
Air cars will never be cool
Wherever the air comes out will probably be a cool spot. Can
probably chill a Foster's or two there.
SugasrFree--I'm not hatin' on you, but these "alternative" cars
always look reeeealy, really nice, until the real world smacks them
in the face.
Give me a car that runs on air and does *everything* my
conventional car does as well, and I'll be a convert. 'Til then,
it's just the engineers talking smack about how great their shit is
in the lab.
JW,
I will give you that. An air car is about as cool as a segway. But
still it is kind of a neat idea.
What about the dangers of turning SETI active and sending
out signals to let whatever is out there, if anything, know we are
here?
We have been doing that since before Heinrich Hertz. Didn't you see
Contact?
BTW, I wonder if Hertz rents air cars?
Anon,
Leaving aside the actual science, the singularity hypothesis is not
about an AI arriving ex nihilo onto to someone's hard
drive, but rather an existing man-made AI "realizing" that it can
make itself "smarter" and devoting it's now higher intelligence to
figuring out ways to make itself even smarter until it begins to
consume the entire computational output of all the resources it can
link itself to (including human minds and forced conversion of
matter (maybe all matter) into a computational medium.)
While this is a science fiction scenario, it's not the silliest
idea anyone's ever come up with. It's just silly compared to real
threats like large impactors and Miley Cyrus.
Oh, and if anybody does not believe that the exteraterrestrials can not detect the experiments of Heinrich Hertz, then you are just not being serious enough of this discussion to matter.
I say one nice thing about an air car...
You guys only want the cynical, mean SugarFree. You won't let me
have LAYERS!
"We have been doing that since before Heinrich Hertz. Didn't you
see Contact?"
ACtually no. That is a popular myth. Astonmers have figured out in
the last few years that ordinary radio and TV waves fade to the
point of blending in with background radiation within a couple of
light years. So there is no alien out there watching I Love Lucy
reruns 50 light years away. To go really far, like 100s or even
1000s of light years, you need a certain kind of concentraited and
really powerful beam. That is what the SETI folks are trying to
send out.
"Even if something menacing and terrible lurks out there among
the stars, Zaitsev and others argue that regulating our
transmissions could be pointless because, technically, we've
already blown our cover. A sphere of omnidirectional broadband
signals has been spreading out from Earth at the speed of light
since the advent of radio over a century ago. So isn't it too late?
That depends on the sensitivity of alien radio detectors, if they
exist at all. Our television signals are diffuse and not targeted
at any star system. It would take a truly huge antenna-larger than
anything we've built or plan to build--to notice them."
http://www.seedmagazine.com/news/2007/12/who_speaks_for_earth.php?page=all&p=y
SF,
I suggest you view Colossus: The Forbin Project and
2001: A Space Odyssey before getting all silly on us
again. Remember, the real future prediction movies begin with one
word, then a colon, in that order.
John,
ACtually no. That is a popular myth. Astonmers have figured out
in the last few years that ordinary radio and TV waves fade to the
point of blending in with background radiation within a couple of
light years.
Please follow along. We are talking super-brainey, engineering
G_d-like exteraterrestrials, not the ones just like us who destroy
everything and have wars!
Bah! Zaitsev is just a hack for Big Invasion.
It's just silly compared to real threats like large
impactors and Miley Cyrus.
Dear god, no! Not the Large Cyrus Collider! Everything will reset
to hillbilly time!
Every 8 seconds, a child dies somewhere because of bad water
and/or lack of sanitation.
Maybe the catastrophists' time would be better spent trying to
alleviate some of this.
"Please follow along. We are talking super-brainey, engineering
G_d-like exteraterrestrials, not the ones just like us who destroy
everything and have wars!"
Maybe we have gotten lucky and they have missed our signals.
Everyone else, if there is anyone has. Why tempt fate and send
more?
Everything will reset to hillbilly time!
But, but... I like my shoes and hygiene! NNNOOOOOOOOOOOO!
So, nuclear winter is the only workable solution to man-made
global warming.
Would this be more or less ironic than man-made global warming as a
potential solution to unintentional nuclear winter? I'm going to
tentatively say less ironic.
In my mind, the whole "Nukes can solve all of our problems!" trope
was taken to its limit when Dyson came up with the idea of using
them to cheaply get into space (close 2nd, the Russians using them
to reroute rivers).
"Pasteur's theory of germs is a ridiculous fiction" by
Pierre Pachet in 1872,
this isn't a "predictive failure," (what is it predicting?) this
guy just turned out to be wrong
and "Space travel is utter bilge," by Astronomer Royal Richard
Woolley in 1956.
I was curious about the context of this so I googled it and:
Gruffed Woolley, in response to reporters' questions about the
prospects for interplanetary travel: "It's utter bilge. I don't
think anybody will ever put up enough money to do such a thing . .
. What good would it do us? If we spent the same amount of money on
preparing first-class astronomical equipment we would learn much
more about the uni verse . . . It is all rather rot."
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,861825,00.html
first of all, he's not saying space travel is impossible, like
people say about "molecular manufacturing"-style nanotechnology and
"runaway singularity"-style ai (they're probably right about both).
second, he was basically right, a lot of space travel is a huge
waste of money science-wise
the fact that reason shrugs off global warming but sends people to
conferences to worry about grey goo or killer robots...what can you
even say?
Well, in Reason's defense - as a proud subscriber - that's not
*all* they spoke about at the conference.
I'm one of the guys who was scoffing at the singularity crowd - but
I think that the conference program, taken as a whole, is
fascinating, and well worth a visit from Reason:
http://www.global-catastrophic-risks.com/programme.html
the fact that reason shrugs off global warming but sends
people to conferences to worry about grey goo or killer
robots...what can you even say?
Ron has gone to global warming conferences as well. Plus this
recent conference covered both global warming and grey goo.
Oh Lawd, please rapture us good Christians up immediately - leaving the secular liberals to suffer for eternity according to the rules laid down by the holy authors of 'Left Behind'.
yeah it's kind of a cheap shot--my real point is that these people's "they scoffed at galileo!" rhetoric is bullshit. i did read this, so i can't really claim this stuff isn't interesting or fun to think about
But, but... I like my shoes and hygiene!
NNNOOOOOOOOOOOO!
I, for one, welcome our new toofless overlords.
One cautionary case: Two groups invaded and seized the
control room of the Pelindaba nuclear facility in South Africa in
November, 2007.
Except the control room ain't where the nuclear material is. Us
people who habituate nuclear control rooms tend to like to have the
material as far away from us a possible. And we put a lot of other
stuff in between that makes the nuclear material hard to get
to.
Now, if you just want to blow something up on site, I suppose this
method will work. But I don't see it as a very practical case study
if one is trying to learn how to get nuclear material for later
use.
I thought the world was going to be eaten by a black hole created by a particle accelerator experiment?!?!?!?
Yeah, Ed ... I would have thought that was in the Top 3, at
least.
And "Anon | July 22, 2008, 4:14pm", the purported issue with the
out-of-control AI (is there any other kind?) is that IMMEDIATELY
upon the creation of such a beast, humanity would discover if it
was benevolent (i.e. we all live) or if it was evil (i.e. we all
die). Therefore, they suggested grappling with the methods for
attempting to guarantee benevolence PRIOR to any attempts that
might come close to working. Ya gotta think about these things
BEFORE they are possible, because if you're wrong ... you die too
quickly to fix your "error".
The Large Cyrus Collider could be a boon on this front by retarding
everyone in a nanosecond.
Cirincione argued that even a nuclear war limited just to
bitter enemies India and Pakistan could produce enough dust and
smoke to lower global temperatures by one half to two degrees
Celsius, plunging the world back to the Little Ice Age.
I saw this touched on here in the comments, but not with enough
incredulity. We are only .5 to 2 degrees globally from another
Little Ice Age? Why are we concerned about a little global warming
again?
Has anyone thought of running some tests on the cracker to see
if it is cracker or Jesus? Obviously we already know the outcome,
but we can laugh all the harder at the idea of transubstantiation
if we prove that the cracker is still 100% cracker.
Actually, even better, you could get a non-transubstantiated
cracker and test the difference between them.
Maybe we have gotten lucky and they have missed our signals.
Everyone else, if there is anyone has. Why tempt fate and send
more?
Now you are getting it. Instead of shutting down all of our organic
fuels, we need to shut down all communications to save the
world.
John-David | July 22, 2008, 9:36pm,
Cirincione argued that even a nuclear war limited just to bitter enemies India and Pakistan could produce enough dust and smoke to lower global temperatures by one half to two degrees Celsius, plunging the world back to the Little Ice Age.
I saw this touched on here in the comments, but not with enough
incredulity. We are only .5 to 2 degrees globally from another
Little Ice Age? Why are we concerned about a little global warming
again?
Excuse me for jumping in, but the 'great' Dr. Carl Seagsn (he had
TV shows and stuff) predicted that we would have a mini-Nuclear
Winter if Saddam set the Kuwaiti oil wells alight. Guess what?
After a volcano eruped near the same time, which should be ignored,
we DID have a global temp drop!
We are just on the edge of another global disaster, just ask Al
Gore, John Kerry or Senator Obama. We can not afford, as a people,
to ignore an opportunity to save the planet. So, vote more taxes
and the government will fix it. Promise. Union wages
guaranteed.
Why am I a humanist? It isn't an instinctive love of mankind. Indeed my disgust with the folly and degradation of our age precludes anything but a cold blankness in my feelings toward my species. No, it is evolution. Consider: our species is about 100,000 years old. Only the last 6% or so of that is civilized, and only the last 6% or so of that includes modern science. At least another few centuries seems only fair. But if that means another 3, 4 or even 6 billion people, then forget it. Ten billion humans cannot live humanly on this planet. There just isn't enough arable land, potable water or breathable air to make that happen.
Ed: Look for a separate column on the dangers of man-made black holes and strangelets.
Why hate on the strangelets? Just because they are
different?
Read someplace recently that "black hole" is a racist term now.
Can't think of a new name for it without stepping on the weight
challenged or the dense.
Read someplace recently that "black hole" is a racist term
now.
I'm colorblind to infinitely dense points; I don't care if they are
black, white, purple, or polka dot.
Read someplace recently that "black hole" is a racist term
now.
Wouldn't that make it a singularity of no color?
The answer is quite simple, post singularity "humans" will come back after leaving earth for 40 years, having forgotten and mythologized their origins, and will exterminate every human they can find.
anon,
"First of all, their methods for "predicting" the imminent date of
the singularity are laughable - and have been wrong for
decades."
Really, I thought the earliest anyone predicted the singularity was
2010 and that was if a large well funded group essentially put all
of their resources into creating an AI. Even Kurzweil puts his
money on 2029.
"The other problem that the singularity folks have is mistaking
intelligence for power."
They talk about self improving intelligence. It's a bit
different.
"Let's wait until we make real progress - or even a tiny step in
the direction of real progress - and understand how this shakes out
in the *real world* before we start getting all in a lather."
What would that progress look like? If something like the
singularity were to happen it would be the biggest thing to ever
happen to the human race. Even if there is only a small chance how
could you not get excited speculating about it?
"Any discussion at this point has about as much validity as a
heated argument over the relative merits of Romulan vs. Kligon
cloaking technology."
Couldn't you say the same about the naysayers?
Bagehot: "Why am I a humanist? It isn't an instinctive love of
mankind."(condensed)
Bagehot you seem to be the most serious poster here. Are you saying
that you are willing to set the example and lighten the global
environmental human load by 1 (one) person? If so, be my guest.
I'm not fully convinced that the development of general AI is
unavoidable. Intelligence and thus the development of AI are
closely linked to available processing power (e.g. well explained
by Hans Moravec in some of his articles). Sufficient processing
power is a prerequisite to build it and the more available
processing power the easier building it probably will be.
Somehow regulating the available processing power could be a
possible strategy to prevent or at least postpone this scenario,
that is trying to "slow down" moore's law. This could act as a
barrier towards the development of AI, in making it too difficult
to achieve for someone trying to build it.
To do this one could do the following:
1. Don't give patents on things that are intended or have the
potential to increase calculating power. This would reduce the
financial impetus for applied research in this field. (the patent
system is also a well working international system today)
2. Find a way to regulate the microprocessor industry, regulate max
calculation power, and in some way regulate the production/sales of
processors.
3. Find a way to regulate the building of supercomputers, perhaps
by some UN organisation similar to IAEA (I think it's still a bit
hard to build the fastest supercomputers in secrecy today)
4. Find a way to partly or totally compensate for losses for
investment been done in research/plants for increased calc. power
that due to regulations will not be utilized.
5. Try to enlighten the public and politicians about the
risks/possible dangers and the challenges and choices/dilemma the
emerging technology will bring. (I think these issues where the
ones top politicians in the world should discuss today.)
6. Bring the awareness of sci/tech dangers into consideration when
giving prices like Nobel prices etc.
7. Try to regulate public founding of research, so it can be led
away from areas somehow defined as risky.
8. Try to work for over national / international regulations on
this kind of research.
9. Give support for researchers that will change their career from
fields somehow defined as (potentially) dangerous, e.g.
nanotechnology
In a longer term a strategy to reduce / "kill off" research and
accumulation of knowledge into areas that can give alternative ways
to faster computing should be developed.
Doing this would be difficult, and the suggestions are not optimal
solutions, but in my opinion this is probably the only
alternative.
Although Kurzweil in his book "the singularity is near" make a good
case for the singularity to happen soon, I think his optimism for
humanity with regard to this is unfounded.
As long as the humanity is at risk of being wiped out, then at
least in a risk calculation perspective you could put up quite some
effort and resources trying to avoid this scenario.
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