"Someone Has To Start Wondering What the F Is Going On."

The Wire co-creator Ed Burns talks about failure in the drug war, public education, the war in Iraq, and police strategies.

(Page 2 of 4)

reason: Critics have said the city of Baltimore is really the central character in the The Wire. Recently, we’ve seen some interesting developments in violent crime statistics. Large cities like New York and Los Angeles have continued with improvements that started in the 1990s, but smaller and medium-size cities like Baltimore, Cincinnati, and Indianapolis seem to be getting bloodier. Do you have any theories as to why that might be?

Burns: Yeah, sure, absolutely. I think New York’s murder rate is under 500 this year in 2007 and that’s out of a population of 8 million people. Baltimore’s murder rate was somewhere around 282 for a population of around 600,000 people. So we’re very close to New York just in raw numbers. The reason is that New York has an economy. There’s a vitality there. There are things happening. People have jobs.

In places like Baltimore, Detroit, and Cincinnati, the jobs that were there are gone. The manufacturing-based jobs are gone, and without that kind of job, it’s very, very difficult to jumpstart the economy. There’s no prospect for Baltimore having jobs in the near future. If you look at Baltimore now, what you’re seeing is a very decayed inner core. The east side of the city is being bought up by Johns Hopkins [the university and hospital]. They’re building a biotech park which is going to employ 6,000 people, but of those 6,000 people, you’ll be lucky to get three people who were originally from those neighborhoods. They just aren't qualified.

reason: You've said that too many narcotics police today have developed a gung-ho, cowboy mentality. You traced this trend back to the 1972 movie The French Connection. Could you elaborate?

Burns: Well, it’s just dumb. The Godfather, or The French Connection, which came out in the early '70s, those movies set the stage for both sides of the drug war. In The French Connection, [Detective] Popeye Doyle had this very cynical, harsh, rough, law-breaking type of drug style that sort of set the tone in how street narcotics guys work. Very flippant. What the movie didn’t pick up, and what you didn’t see, is all the intense surveillance and hard work that would go into a drug bust back then. But they put out the idea of this guy who cracks heads, especially in that scene they went and they shook the bar down. That became iconic. And that is the way the cops were afterward. I mean, you’d see white cops in black neighborhoods looking like Serpico, and they’re not undercover. It was just this mindset that took over of how you’re supposed to dress and act and the way you’re supposed to be.

The Godfather had a similar effect on the other side. It basically taught these emerging heroin gangs how to do business, how you set up your structure, with the code and the organization, the way you should have a boss, under-bosses—you know, capos. It got black, inner-city heroin dealers into the same mindset.

reason: How common do you think that is—drug dealers taking tips from the entertainment world? I’ve actually read that some dealers actually get advice from The Wire, particularly when it comes to communication systems they can use to evade police surveillance.

Burns: Well, if they’re looking at what we’re telling them, they won’t be learning much, because the technology has been out there. The Marlo Stanfields of today—those types of guys who I think of as mid-level drug dealers—there are just so many of them. They’re like the salmon going up the river. There’s really no way for law enforcement to stop all of these guys. There’s just too many of them. So the ones who take a modicum of precautions, the ones who are smart enough to stay low key, they’re completely under the radar screen, because it would just take too much work to even figure out who these guys are, and how to catch them. Only the really, really careless ones get caught.

reason: What effect do you think shows like Cops and Dallas SWAT have on police culture and police attitudes?

Burns: I can’t answer that question. I don’t watch any television.

reason: What’s your feeling on the militarization of domestic police departments, particularly as it relates to the drug war?

Burns: I think this whole thing was driven by the concept of numbers. You can quantify numbers, so if you’re in a war and you’re racking up numbers—numbers being arrests—it sets that military tone. Sort of like the way we’ve historically measured the success of wars in terms of casualties. The police departments that work in these hard neighborhoods are basically armies of occupation. Their job is to keep these people suppressed.

In Baltimore two years ago, they locked up 115,000 people from a population of 600,000. Now, let’s assume that they didn’t lock up anybody under the age of 8 or over the age of 70. They didn’t lock up that many white middle class people. That’s an awful lot of people from one particular group getting put behind bars. And many times, they’re getting locked up for things like sitting on the stoop drinking a beer, pissing in the alley, or just jaywalking in the street.

reason: The old “broken windows” theory, right?

Burns: [Laughs] Yeah. James Q. Wilson's trick. It doesn’t work. In fact, what it does do is alienate the police department from the community. So you’re an army of occupation, and because you’ve alienated the community, and you’re not getting any information. That’s a bad situation.

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  • TallDave||

    I started watching this recently, courtesy on-demand from comcast, after hearing how great it was. I watched the first couple episodes of Season 5, and frankly didn't see what all the fuss was about.

    Did I just pick it up at a weak point in the series?

  • kinnath||

    TallDave, I started with seasons 1 through 3 on DVD. There is no way you're going to understand season 5 without starting at the beginning.

    I need to pick up season 4, then I'll have to wait patiently for season 5.

  • Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L||

    I gotta admit, it's been pretty great. Basically season 1 is about the cops and the drug dealers (and in a way, so is every season). Season 2 is about the dockworkers' unions, season 3 is about the politicians, elections, and drug legalization, season 4 is about the school system and the kids, and season 5 has been about the newspapers and the homeless.

    It's been great and like the article posted here the other day, Omar Little is one of the greatest characters on TV ever (along with Spock, Barney Fife, Archie Bunker, Al Swearingen, George Costanza, Livia Soprano, and probably the greatest ever: Andy Sipowicz).

    On second look, my list seems a bit sexist. Who are the other great characters I'm missing? Not looking for catchphrasey-kinda things, but characters whose writing and acting somehow combines to make the character more real than other TV characters, and probably more real than most movie characters could be.

  • Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L||

    OK: Eric Cartman's absence was an obvious slip-up.

  • kinnath||

    Dexter only has two seasons, but he is clearly a future candidate for your list.

  • kinnath||

    Hawkeye Pierce & Hot Lips

  • Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L||

    Oh yeah, I've heard about that show - on SHOWTIME, right?. It sounds cool, but I haven't seen it yet. Speaking of the actor who plays the main role in Dexter, I'd like to add someone from Six Feet Under, but although I think it was a great show, I'm not sure that any of the characters were quite to that level.

  • Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L||

    Though if any were, it was his character, David, probably.

  • kinnath||

    It sounds cool, but I haven't seen it yet.

    Buy or rent the DVDs; you won't be disapointed.

  • Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L||

    Calamity Jane might deserve a spot from Deadwood along with Swearingen.

  • ||

    OT regarding "The Wire" but here goes:

    Dr. Johnny Fever, Les Nessman, Bailey Quarters (WKRP)

    Emily Newhart (Newhart 1)

    Larry, Darryl and Darryl (Newhart 2)

    If mini-series count: Gus McCrae and Woodrow Call (Lonesome Dove)

  • kinnath||

    Deadwood, Wired, Dexter . . Best TV in the last 5 years.

  • Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L||

    and Mal Reynolds from Firefly...I can't believe I forgot him. They managed a lot with that character in just thirteen episodes.

  • Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L||

    Duvall's performance in Lonesome Dove may be the best acting job ever.

  • Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L||

    I still want to do Bailey.

  • ||

    I never seen The Wire, but it struck me as being like The Sopranos;
    just interesting and intelligent enough to force you to follow the plot and characters, but so dry that it becomes a pain in the ass to sit through.

  • kinnath||

    . . . but so dry that it becomes a pain in the ass to sit through.

    I was home ill a week or so ago. I watched 7 straight hours of the Wire and was disappointed that I had to stop because I had finished season 3.

  • ||

    Someone Who Doesn't Want to Lose His Job | March 7, 2008, 4:14pm | #
    I still want to do Bailey.

    Run Ron, Run!!

  • ||

    Someone Who Doesn't Want to Lose His Job | March 7, 2008, 4:14pm | #
    Duvall's performance in Lonesome Dove may be the best acting job ever.

    Thumb's up from me - and I think the rest of the cast gave him plenty of support.

    Someone Who Doesn't Want to Lose His Job | March 7, 2008, 4:14pm | #
    I still want to do Bailey.

    Me too... and Emily Newhart... together or separately.

  • Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L||

    Emily Newhart was...wait...let me think of it...Suzanne Pleshette, right? Oh, yeah. She was really unbearably hot too.

    I have a girls in glasses "thing", though.

    Thumb's up from me - and I think the rest of the cast gave him plenty of support.

    The scene where he hangs Jake is maybe the best performance ever.

  • ||

    Finally someone at Reason came to their senses and revised the swear word that was front and center on the home page. It's a shame though, that someone actually thought the F-word was acceptable usage for Reason's home page.

  • ||

    It's a shame though, that someone actually thought the F-word was acceptable usage for Reason's home page.

    I did...

  • Mrs Manners||

    Reason sucks

  • ||

    Hit & Run needs to follow Fark's lead, and create a filter that changes "reason sucks" to "I'm a sheep-molesting douche".

  • NP||

    The Wire is a third-rate crime drama that occasionally rises to the second-rate tier when it ceases, if only for a while, taking itself too seriously. How any sane person would give it a tenth of the respect it's been accorded so far is simply beyond me.

  • LarryA||

    So how do you change all of this? You change the numbers game. You require police to reconnect with the people, and you start focusing everybody on the major crimes, the ones that make living very, very difficult-murder, rape, and robbery.

    Once again:

    The [London] Metropolitan Police's founding principles and, de facto the founding principles of all other modern (post 1829) UK police forces, was summarised by Sir Richard Mayne (the first commissioner) in 1829 in the following terms:
    The nine principles by Sir Richard Mayne

    1. To prevent crime and disorder, as an alternative to their repression by military force and severity of legal punishment.

    2. To recognise always that the power of the police to fulfil their functions and duties is dependent on public approval of their existence, actions and behaviour and on their ability to secure and maintain public respect.

    3. To recognise always that to secure and maintain the respect and approval of the public means also the securing of the willing co-operation of the public in the task of securing observance of laws.

    4. To recognise always that the extent to which the co-operation of the public can be secured diminishes proportionately the necessity of the use of physical force and compulsion for achieving police objectives.

    5. To seek and preserve public favour, not by pandering to public opinion; but by constantly demonstrating absolutely impartial service to law, in complete independence of policy, and without regard to the justice or injustice of the substance of individual laws, by ready offering of individual service and friendship to all members of the public without regard to their wealth or social standing, by ready exercise of courtesy and friendly good humour; and by ready offering of individual sacrifice in protecting and preserving life.

    6. To use physical force only when the exercise of persuasion, advice and warning is found to be insufficient to obtain public co-operation to an extent necessary to secure observance of law or to restore order, and to use only the minimum degree of physical force which is necessary on any particular occasion for achieving a police objective.

    7. To maintain at all times a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and that the public are the police, the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.

    8. To recognise always the need for strict adherence to police-executive functions, and to refrain from even seeming to usurp the powers of the judiciary of avenging individuals or the State, and of authoritatively judging guilt and punishing the guilty.

    9. To recognise always that the test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, and not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with them.


  • ||

    The Wire is a quality show with good, believable characters much like the too short Deadwood.

    One thing that really stands out with The Wire is, it clearly dramatizes the epic fail on every level that is the war on some drugs. From the cops, to the politicians, from the dealers to the users, The Wire pulls no punches and lays the hard realities of the war against drugs with all its unintended consequences.

    /Need a dramatic show about medical cannabis.

    //Weeds is more comedy than drama.

  • economist||

    I noticed that they censored the title. What the fuck is up with that?

  • ||

    I'd like to add someone from Six Feet Under, but although I think it was a great show, I'm not sure that any of the characters were quite to that level.


  • ||

    It's been great and like the article posted here the other day, Omar Little is one of the greatest characters on TV ever (along with Spock, Barney Fife, Archie Bunker, Al Swearingen, George Costanza, Livia Soprano, and probably the greatest ever: Andy Sipowicz).

    No love for TGIF? Steve Erkel, Michelle Tanner, and Balki Balkokovitch(sp?) all deserve a spot on that list. And what about Fox "MF'in" Mulder? And if Cathy Young were posting on this thread, I'm sure she'd say Xena Warrior Princess, and I'd agree. Jack Bauer too.

  • some guy||

    It's just pop culture. Transitory, disposable.
    Pay your cable bill. More tomorrow.
    Move along now.

  • ||

    What the fuck is with the title?

  • Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L||

    OK I was wrong. Michael isn't the new Marlo.

    I won't say much else, at the risk of spoiling it for someone.

  • Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L||

    Except I'll say that the end of the Michael storyline was really cool.

    If that makes me a spoiler, then so be it.

  • ||

    Y'all forgot to mention Doogie Howser, if it weren't for him typing away on his computer at the end of each episode this blog wouldn't exist. True story.

  • Culprititus||

    I've been downloading episodes of this great Canadian show that is sort of a cross between Weeds and BBC show IT Crowd. It is extremely geek/nerdy at times with lots of social commentary. Never watched The Wire myself, but I have been interested in looking at it from all that I've heard and read.

  • Culprititus||

    oh yeah, the Canadian show is called JPod

  • ||

    The majority of the comments seem focused on the gritty entertainment 'the Wire' has provided, rather than Mr. Burns' useful, though baleful insights based on his experience in the real world. Maybe entertainment and real life are indistinguishable in our culture any more. He describes a program in Harlem designed to redeem the lost and disadvantaged children of the welfare state called the 'Children's Zone', whose basic philosophy 'is so logical and so obvious':

    "... what works in the middle class is that you have input, the healthy positive input into an infant every day of that child's life, as an infant and as a young child. Somebody's always there. That's how we raise our kids, and the success rate is very, very high. There are some failures in the middle class and the upper middle class, but the success rate is high."

    What quaint middle-class phenomenon is so logical and so obvious that social services professionals and educators and government aid workers have been missing all these years? By any other name they're called parents. Nothing is going to fix the intractable problems on the streets and in the schools except parents (caregivers or whatever euphemism you want to use) who are accountable to the community and take responsibility for raising the children that they, after all, have produced.

    Related References:

    Theodore Dalrymple in the City Journal

    Christopher Lasch, 'The Culture of Narcissism' (Among other things, the book describes how, beginning with the Progressive era around 1900, professional social services workers educators, therapists, and gov. bureaucrats have undermined the authority and accountability of parents.)


  • Nike Dunk Low||

    is good


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