Pakistan is a very complicated player. We desperately need Pakistan's help, but I think it's not a monolithic entity. We're not getting all the help we need, and I'm not optimistic that we will.
Reason: At several points in your talks with Jewish terrorists you confess to feeling some attraction to their Manichean, traditionalist view; one woman even predicts you yourself will make aliyah one of these days. Doesn't it make you despair of humanity to think that even with the proverbial 27 years of college, you yourself can still be touched by such a crude appeal? If it's true for you, what hope do we have of dissuading people who have no advantages in life?
Stern: I think there is an appeal to a simple, Manichean worldview. It satisfies some childish need to know who we are. We can't pretend that it isn't appealing. Maybe there are some people who went through 31 years of college and wouldn't feel that appeal. But it is appealing, especially for people who are troubled. And there are some parts of the world where large numbers of people are uncertain and unable to find their mission in life. In some parts of the world it's the most educated people who feel that way. So it's not at all a matter of education. If you look at some of the participants in September 11 and some of the people who have joined al Qaeda that we know about, it's not lack of education that made it appealing. It was a feeling of frustration and humiliation.
Reason: You refer several times to horrible, horrible freedom, the sense that modern life offers people too many roles they can try on.
Stern: I think it's hard for all of us. It's great to have that kind of freedom but it's also painful. I think everybody can understand the appeal.
Reason: In your policy recommendations, you say this stuff is not susceptible to military solutions. How true is that in cases where there is some state sponsorship? And if a state-dependant organization like Al Qaeda loses its sponsorship and has to change its tactics, isn't that a victory of sorts?
Stern: Oh yeah, in the case of al Qaeda that had to be part of the strategy. I'm not saying we shouldn't be involved militarily at all. There are some situations where the military response is required as part of a much broader strategy.
Reason: Jon Krakauer has a book out right now about homicidal Mormon zealots, which speculates quite a bit about religious fanaticism and violence. Everything that guy touches turns to gold. Are you concerned he's going to suck up all the oxygen for your book?
Stern: I don't know, maybe I should worry about that. It sounds like a really interesting book. He's focused on one religion; my book covers a few of them.
Reason: You and Condoleezza Rice had some interesting parallels in your careers: You both started out with an emphasis on Russia and are fluent in Russian, but then through circumstance shifted to an emphasis on terrorism. Do you ever look at her and say, "Goddammit, I should have that job"?
Stern: I think that's a really good job.
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