Reason: What was your role in the attack? What were you doing, how did you get out?
Thibodeau: I started off on the second story, sitting in a window looking out at the Texas night. As dawn was breaking the phone rang and it was the FBI negotiator saying we need to talk with Steve Schneider right now. I went to wake up Steve and he didn’t want to get up. He said, "We’ll call them later." So I went back up and told him. He said "No, we need to speak to them right now." And this point the tanks came up and started surrounding the building. The speaker system came on and said, "We are going to be inserting tear gas into the building. This is not an assault. This is not an assault. The siege is over. Come out with your hands up. You’re all under arrest." They just kept repeating this over and over. "We’re going to insert tear gas. It will inhabit your clothing and food and make everything in there uninhabitable. Come out now."
People started waking up, running around. Steve was yelling, "Everybody get your masks." I started to hear popping sounds around the building. They started to break the walls, break the windows down, spread the CS gas out. The speakers said, "This is not an assault." Yet I hear glass breaking. I thought, "If this isn’t an assault, I’d hate to see what is."
At that point, people running around getting their gas masks, I spoke to Jennifer Andrade who said the kids were getting put in the bus. That’s where I thought the kids were going to be. I decided I was going to stay in the chapel area for the day. What the tanks would do--after the popping sound subsided and their ferret rounds ran out--the tanks would come up to the building and rip out portions and segments of the building and spray the MP-5 bottles, which held a very large amount of CS gas. The tanks would shake the building like it was an earthquake. I remember that Jaime Castillos’ gas mask wasn’t working and he was in tears. I went to his room to get another one. He had a lakeside view and from his room I could see how the tanks had I had come down and destroyed the lake, destroyed everything.
Later I was listening to the Ron Engelman show and heard the news, "The Branch Davidian compound is being raided by the FBI. They are putting in tear gas in hope and effort to get the Davidians to come out. The FBI has received 80 to 200 gunshots against their CEVs. But to the credit of the FBI, they have not fired back."
When I heard that, my heart sank. I knew that we were being set up for a massacre. I had never heard any gun shots that morning. I remember this very distinctly because I remember being very happy that no one was firing at the FBI and giving them the chance to come in and assault us. They were setting the American people up for a massacre. That is one of the reasons I didn’t want to come out.
It was very surreal. After I heard that report, I pretty much lost hope that we were going to come out of this okay. Later on the tanks started to increase their efforts. They would come through the front door, moving the piano back to the area that we were in. I remember hiding behind two stacks of speakers. Then a tank came in the side of the building. I thought it was going to run over me and crush me so I hopped up on the stage. I heard that there was a fire upstairs. I ran up the stairwell to the back of the building where David Koresh’s bedroom was. I couldn’t get in the door because there was a beam in from of me. I pulled myself up and dropped into Koresh’s office area. I went over a catwalk that led to the Chapel area where the second story hallway began. We had a blanket over the doorway because we hadn’t put a door in yet. I opened up the blanket and a big gust of smoke came at me. I had to back up. Once the smoke dissipated, I went to get in to that hallway, thinking of getting to the children to make sure they were being put in the bus. When that happened, a wall of flames shot down the hallway from left to right. I couldn’t get in there, the place was totally ablaze. By the time I got downstairs there was already smoke all around. I remember looking at my black leather jacket, it was pelted white dots from the CS gas. I took off my jacket and my gas mask and knelt down. The wall to my right caught fire. I say Jaime Castillo and Derek Lovelock exit the building. I followed suit behind them.
Reason: How long was the total assault?
Thibodeau: Six hours.
Reason: You write, "At times, I suspected David might just have conned everyone into allowing him an exclusive harem, so to speak. Still, I knew there was more to it than that." Do you still think there’s more to it than that?
Thibodeau: I believe that Koresh was the first to reveal the Seven Seals. I will put it to you this way: The first study I had when I went to Waco, he put a book up to his forehead and said, "Most people think this is two pieces of cow leather with pages in between. I see it panoramically, as if it’s all happening now in front of me." Over the course of the next two weeks I was convinced that that was true. When he gave a study of any particular subject, he gave a study as if he was there and knew the expressions on the faces of all the people involved in whatever story he was representing to such an extent that he never had to think about what was natural. It was literally like he saw the whole Bible happen. And I’ve never seen anyone that can do that. It was like he was the word made flesh.
|
"At times, I suspected David might just have conned everyone into allowing him an exclusive harem, so to speak." |
Reason: Do you still see him as a messiah?
Thibodeau: He never wanted us to see him as a messiah. He said, "I don’t want you people worshiping me or bowing down to the person. I’m a Dixie cup to be used and thrown away. I have a truth and that’s what I want you to focus on. It’s what God is saying in the scripture. Do you think the way I’m bringing it out is correct, if you don’t, tell me." He always had us question it. And I did.
Reason: Did others see him as a messiah, a living embodiment of god’s will?
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time.
Pingback| 4.20.10 @ 8:29AM
BizzyBlog links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Pingback| 4.20.10 @ 6:03PM
Deals & Investments » Blog Archive » Lucid and Lightning Links (042010, Morning) links to this page. Here’s an excerpt: