What Happened at Waco?

An exclusive interview with Waco survivor David Thibodeau, co-author of A Place Called Waco: A Survivor's Story

Michael W. Lynch | October 4, 1999

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Thibodeau: Of course. Steve Schneider was often upset about it but at the same time he had spent six months trying to rip David apart to prove him wrong before he joined the group. So did Paul Fatta. They worked together trying to prove the message wrong. They couldn’t do it. So they said, "He has the truth."

Reason: So at that point they fell into line?

Thibodeau: They believed it was the message of God, that is was for this higher purpose. And that they were in the inner circle of the anointed one. Think about that. They would sacrifice everything to be with this person and to have some part in the fulfillment of this eternal plan. It’s something the world wouldn’t understand, they might be wiped out for it, but eternally they will have great position. It’s a pretty amazing dynamic. They believed that Koresh was the next sprit messiah, the guy who would come to fulfill this part of the truth. They would stand with him and come back to set up the kingdom here on earth.

Reason: In your book, you complain that the media demonized Koresh. But don’t you think much of the material in your book – especially his attraction to young girls – vindicates some of the harsher portraits of Koresh?

Thibodeau: That’s no reason to go in and kill the people. But, as for the allegations that Koresh slept with minors, in some of the cases it’s true and some of the cases are not. Most of the women were of age. There were only a couple that weren’t. I can’t deny [that some of them were under age]. I wish I could. But I can’t.

Reason: What was the day in and day out life like at Mount Carmel before the ATF raid?

Thibodeau: A basic day consisted of waking up, eating breakfast and going to work on the property. We had been working on building the place up and beautifying it, if you will. We put in a track. We put in a pool. At 9:00 AM and 3:00 PM very day, we would keep the "daily," which is participating in the grape juice and crackers. We would do that and have a small prayer. After dinner, David would go onstage and start playing guitar, which was my cue to play drums and we would jam for a while. After that, it was study time, and David would come and give a study.

Reason: You indicate that you knew the feds were coming and that it was just a matter of when they would come. They had an infiltrator amongst you whom you knew about. Why didn’t anyone contact them in a more formal way?

Thibodeau: That’s what Wayne Martin, a Harvard-educated attorney [and Branch Davidian], wanted to do. David didn’t want to do that. David felt he had a truth and he wanted to present that truth. He felt that Robert Rodriguez [the infiltrator] was a soul and David wanted to work with this one particular soul.

That’s why you send an uncover guy in right, to find evidence of illegal activity before you move on them. That’s what I don’t understand. They sent their undercover guy in, he found no examples of illegal activity, and they still moved on us. Even their warrant was shoddy.

Reason: What was the decision-making process? Was this talked about openly?

Thibodeau: It was talked about. Wayne indicated what he wanted to do. David indicated what he wanted to do: work through Robert. He felt that was the best way. He just felt that this one person he could relate to him, and he liked him.

The funny thing is that when the FBI came in and took over, they asked Robert, "You’ve been there, what’s he going to do?" Robert said, "Give me a Bible and I’ll show you exactly what he’s going to do next." They looked at him like he was crazy. But frankly, it was all there. Robert literally could have told the FBI what Koresh could do next because it was all there in the scripture.

Reason: Do you think it was a mistake for the FBI to ignore him?

Thibodeau: Absolutely. I think law enforcement should respect their undercover agents and listen to what they have to say. It makes not sense whatsoever. But they ignored him. They ignored their psychologist. Any time someone tell them something that went against what the power structure wanted to do, they ignored it. They wanted to get Koresh. There is a scene in Waco: Rules of Engagement when the cameras are recording the government negotiators. They have a picture of Mount Carmel and David Koresh. The attitude was this was the enemy, we've got to get them. They should have had pictures of [the kids in there]. The attitude should have been that these are the kids, they are innocent, and we need to save them.