On the Frontier

From the Wild East of Russian capitalism to the evolving forms of cyberspace, Esther Dyson likes the promise of unsettled territory--and the challenge of civilizing it.

Virginia Postrel from the October 1996 issue

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Reason: Why?

Dyson: Well, take the evolution of the Electronic Frontier Foundation. It began as hackers' rights. Then it became general civil liberties of everybody--government stay away. But the more you think about these things, the more you realize there is no simple answer like, "Government is bad." Or, "Government should do everything." You have to be a grownup. You have to decide what government should do and not do. And what's its appropriate size and what's its appropriate scale.

Since I became chairman, I've tried to turn EFF into civil liberties and responsibilities. I would much rather see responsibilities exercised by individuals than have them imposed by the government. But there is a corollary to freedom and that's personal responsibility, and the real challenge is how you generate that personal responsibility without imposing it. Having spent time in Washington--starting with the EFF and now with the NII Advisory Council--that's been extremely educational. Mostly it's been not terribly inspiring.

Reason: What have you learned?

Dyson: Oh, that all the things my father [physicist Freeman Dyson] had told me about how disgusting Washington is are true. And again it's the system--there are lots of nice, well-meaning people there. But it's a sleazy place. And politics is all about doing favors. When I go to Russia I talk about corruption, which is really bad there--it's not perfect here either. It's usually subtler and gentler, but it exists. It's a rare politician who takes $10,000 and then votes for a bill. But his friends are in the corn business, so he understands the corn point of view. And who's going to give him money? Well, the corn people. So he's not on the take, but his world view is influenced. It's usually much more subtle than wads of cash being handed around. I've seen disgusting excess in business, and I've seen disgusting excess in Washington. But at the same time, I've certainly learned that Washington matters and that you can't ignore it, especially when you get into telecom.

Reason: You were in Russia for the general presidential election. What do you make of the situation now?

Dyson: Extremely cheerful. You never know what is going to happen, but it looks very good. It was just wonderful to be there. Every night you'd come home and turn on the TV, and some other jerk was being fired by Yeltsin. He's getting rid of some of the bad actors. It's not going to be easy, but there is a sense that we can get on with it now, where there wasn't before.

Reason: You're not concerned about Lebed?

Dyson: I'm concerned about lots of things, but given the alternative, it's extremely cheerful. My big concern about Lebed is that he thinks the way to cure corruption is to come down hard on it. The better way to cure corruption is to have openness. What I'm thinking about more and more these days is simply the importance of transparency, and Jefferson's saying that he'd rather have a free press without a government than a government without a free press.

Reason: How does that apply in the Russian context?

Dyson: Well, they have a "free press," but they don't have an honest press, and they certainly don't have openness. For example, right before the elections the press was free and made a free choice to be untruthful. But I'm glad to see that after the elections they are now printing some unpleasant truths about Yeltsin and his crew. Still, there is the presumption that things are secretive, business is secretive. Nobody knows who got their money from where. It's debilitating. You need fewer laws, other than disclosure. I don't care how much you spend on your election campaign as long as I know how much it is and where it came from. I think I have the right to know what Steve Forbes paid in taxes--I don't think there should be a law. I think there should be a presumption. I wouldn't vote for a guy who wouldn't reveal what he paid in taxes. That kind of thing. And the Russians certainly don't have it. If a woman shows up in a fur coat, I just assume she's a crook. And that's me, the nice American. The assumption that you can't make money honestly is a killer.

Reason: But some people do manage to make money honestly?

Dyson: A lot of it is you hire people to do the dirty work like importing. There's almost no way of doing importing honestly, because if you do you're at such a disadvantage competitively. So people spend huge amounts of effort getting around stupid laws and not paying taxes. If everybody paid their taxes the government would have way too much money. But as it is, the crooks benefit at the expense of people who try to be honest.

Reason: Let me ask you about some articles, all from one day's Chicago Tribune. First, "China Orders Internet Users to Register with the Police." This kind of article, which we're seeing more and more of, both foreign and domestic, calls into question the claim that the Internet and technology make government irrelevant and freedom inevitable.

Dyson: There are two versions of the answer. One is, of course. The Chinese government controls everything. What you saw in Russia was that the law didn't matter and probably still doesn't matter. But in the old days, there was always some law that you didn't know about that you could have broken. If they wanted to put you in jail, they would. Somewhere, somehow you had broken a law. Or they could say that you had broken a law. Or they could get three neighbors to testify. Because the neighbors had children--everybody had something that made them vulnerable. So a government can control--and a really vicious government can control close to absolutely. What they cannot do is allow the Internet and allow commerce and get the economic benefits, and still control people. That's where the contradiction comes.