I am not denying that there are some economic factors, but they aren't the ones that people talk about. It is not the unemployment rate and it is not a problem that can be solved by creating jobs. It is a problem created when children grow up and learn in an environment in which they never a see a married man working for a living at a legitimate job and supporting his family. These children learn, since they have never seen such behavior, that it isn't an available alternative, or if it is, it's an undesirable one. They see fear, they see drug use, they see gangsterism, they see disorganization. This is what they learn.
Reason: What has created the widespread inability of parents to raise children?
Wilson: I wish we knew the answer. It wasn't happening at all until the late '60s, so the phenomenon has only been around for 25 years. In reality, it has only gotten dramatically worse in the last 10 years.
Several items play a role. I think Charles Murray is correct that if the welfare options were not there, fewer people would be able to support themselves in this lifestyle, and therefore fewer people would lead such a lifestyle. My only reservation is that I do not think that any politically feasible change in the monetary value of the welfare package of benefits would alter the rate at which people take advantage of it. It is a kind of safety net, and you can raise or lower the safety net a little bit and it won't make any difference. Now, Charles Murray's response to that statement would be to say, "Yes, and that's why the safety net has to be totally abolished." But that's not going to happen.
I think Myron Magnet is correct in his claim that underclass culture is a dialect of upper-class culture, with an emphasis on hedonism and personal satisfaction and value relativism. This cultural defect is something which gets magnified and endorses certain kinds of behavior. The media are partly responsible, but not because there is violence on TV. I think the impact of such depictions of violence probably has very little to do with behavior. I think television's main effect has to do with socialization. Viewers are absorbed in a world of self-expression, compulsiveness, immediate gratification--that's what TV gives you.
I do think the problem is sufficiently serious so that no modest interventions will make a difference, and no purely economic modification will make a big difference. That's why I think we really have to alter, fundamentally, the way that lots of these children grow up from ages one to 12.
Reason: Hence, your endorsement of a return to public orphanages.
Wilson: You begin with the rule that the goal of our public policy is to protect the children. We're not particularly interested in whether the mothers work or not, not interested in whether they'll get 10 percent less money or 10 percent more money. For many of these children, the only thing that will work is if they are raised in radically different settings.
This means they are either raised by somebody else or they are raised by their own mother but in an environment in which the mother herself is taught how to be a mother and the child is given a decent environment. For the most at-risk children, I suggest pooling welfare checks and housing allowances in a way that will make economically feasible group shelters, either run by government or private organizations. Sen. [Bill] Bradley [D-N.J.] is thinking about introducing a bill that would authorize it. Wisconsin's Gov. Tommy Thompson is likely to make it a main component of his reforms.
Reason: Isn't this paternalism in the extreme? In the past, you have written that the goal of public policy should be to reinforce the obligation of parents to raise their children. But wouldn't you be letting parents avoid that responsibility by allowing them to place their children in orphanages and group homes?
Wilson: Yes, it is paternalism. That is exactly what it is. What these children lack is paternalism. That's a very good way to put it. And it is a fair criticism to say it will let some parents off the hook. But for some people I think that's exactly right. I've increasingly come to the view that, for some children, we have to accept the fact that their parents will slough off their responsibility. We also have to reinforce the legal and cultural sanctions that support the maintenance of those responsibilities, but we have to face the fact that in some cases these cultural reinforcements will not work.
A 17-year-old girl who is on crack cocaine cannot be taught responsibility. It's impossible. We don't have the faintest idea how to do that. There are a lot of 15- and 16-year-old girls who have children who are not on crack cocaine, and who would like to be decent mothers. Most of these can be decent mothers, provided they're put in an environment where they're taught how to be decent mothers and protected from those influences outside that make it impossible to be decent mothers. That's why I support pooling the welfare checks into group shelters where mother and child would live together. This could help the child. Remember that we know how to raise babies. This is not a problem. Society has spent 50,000 years learning that. Putting a mother in a group shelter doesn't absolve her of her responsibilities. It says, "If you want help raising your baby, you've got to go to this shelter." Most of these mothers love their babies. They don't want to abandon them.
And it would be voluntary in the sense that, if you want public support, that's the way you get it. You don't have to go there. But you won't get any money and you won't get any housing units.
Reason: What can be done to prevent the situation in the first place?
Wilson: The first step to doing that is reducing illegitimacy. We don't know how to reduce illegitimacy. My idea is not to end welfare for 15-year-old girls. You simply say that you can't get the welfare unless you give up the opportunity to have an independent household. This would make it much less attractive for some people.
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