Of Mice and Men

Bruce Ames Interview

Virginia Postrel from the November 1994 issue

(Page 4 of 7)

Ames: Most scientists tend to steer away from that. You get promoted and you get recognized by your peers, you get to go to international conferences and all that. by doing good science. And if you make a mistake, then everybody jumps on you. There's no incentive for scientists to be getting involved in policy, though people do it when they feel a responsibility.

Reason: Are there incentives not to do it?

Ames: Yes, I would say probably so. If I spent 5 percent of my time talking to you or talking to Omni or other people, then it's time I'm not spending working on what causes aging and maybe I'm better off being in a lab trying to do that.

Reason: Do you see yourself at this point as something of a popularizer as well as a researcher?

Ames: Yes. a little bit. I feel it's partly my duty. I'd really like to prevent cancer. The best way to go about it is prevention rather than trying to find a cure for cancer, because that's so elusive. though we need to work on that. too...

Reason: You mean on treating it?

Ames: Yes. I'm much more interested in preventing cancer. Then we have to get out to the public what's important. If you tell them about trivia all the time, they get completely confused, and it's counterproductive. I just think all this business of organic food is nonsense basically. We should be eating more fruits and vegetables, so the main way to do that is to make them cheaper. Anything that makes fruits and vegetables more expensive may increase cancer.

Reason: Do you think there might be legitimate concem for worker exposure?

Ames: Worker exposure is very different. I think you want strict rules, because there people can get very high doses. We were having some guy paint our house. He was up on a ladder with a spray can, spraying the house. I said. "Hey, you have to wear a mask. You just can't be in a cloud of that. Don't you know you shouldn't be breathing all that stuff?"

"Oh, I can't wear a mask. I need to stop every once in a while and smoke." So he stopped and took out a cigarette and smoked. So partly it's hard to convince people. It's a macho thing or whatever. But we do need rules, and people whose occupations expose them to high doses of chemicals need to follow the rules.

Reason: Aside from the specific scientific issues where your research has a direct bearing on policy, how would you describe your own political views?

Ames: Well, I guess I feel I'm neither a leftist nor a conservative. It's probably more libertarian. Again. I'm not a fanatic. I feel we should give people the maximum choice possible and let them pay for their mistakes. I think if the government starts trying to insulate everybody from their mistakes, from the consequences of their acts, we're in trouble, because that's a constant feedback in people's lives. If somebody doesn't save his money, should you really then have to provide for him, when the person who saves is skimping now and thinking long term? Of course, with kids, you educate them. But we have to treat adults as adults.

Reason: Do you favor any kinds of regulations to restrict smoking?

Ames: Smoking is 10 years off your life. If somebody voluntarily takes 10 years off his life, fine. But the rest of us shouldn't have to pay for it. Now second-hand smoke I don't think is a big deal in terms of causing cancer. But a lot of people just don't like second-hand smoke around them. I don't either.

It seems to me it's reasonable that, if someone is polluting the air, then he should do it in his own little cubbyhole or some part of the restaurant that doesn't get to the rest of us. But on the other hand, I walk to work, but I don't think everybody who drives to work should be prohibited from using his car because he's polluting the air. Life is full of trade-offs.

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